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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 26 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  39. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> annevk, Domenic so, one interesting part of http://www.publickey1.jp/blog/15/html5whatwgw3c_tpac_2015.html is that it translates the statement Travis made at the TPAC Future of HTML session where he said that the Edge team references/refers to the WHATWG HTML spec when doing their work
  40. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> but it also says a bit more than what was actually minuted there
  41. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> it actually also says, "...so, the Edge team wishes the WHATWG had a patent policy"
  42. # [01:25] <Domenic> *very* interesting
  43. # [01:26] <MikeSmith> incidentally, just prior to all that, it mentions that there is a WHATWG CG but that it's not active, so therefore Microsoft isn't participating in it
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  46. # [01:28] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure Travis did say that, even though it's not minuted, FWIW
  47. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> ok
  48. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> yeah Niino-san probably took very detailed notes
  49. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> he'ss a very careful guy
  50. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> (they guy who wrote that)
  51. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> and he's very widely read by a lot of people in the tech world here in Japan
  52. # [01:31] <jgraham> I particularly like Google translate rendering what I assume is "unconference format" as "Anne conference format"
  53. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> haha
  54. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> Google Translate is near totally worthless for translating Japanese
  55. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> in my experience
  56. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> anyway, just after that part it says, "So, because of the patent-policy issue and also because the WHATWG doesn't follow a consensus process, work on HTML at the W3C will continue
  57. # [01:32] <jgraham> Well… comapred to it being totally unintelligible, this is better. Obviously less good than actually understanding the Japanese though
  58. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  59. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> so the next-to-last part mentions modularization and also says that some parts of the HTML spec that aren't needed can be dropped
  60. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> oh
  61. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> actually it doesn't say "some parts of the HTML spec that aren't needed" but more precisely it says, "some parts of HTML that don't need to be maintained"
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  63. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> anyway, I guess by far the most interesting bit of the whole thing is that part that says "the Edge team wishes the WHATWG had a patent policy"
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  65. # [01:39] <jv_> Just read HTML5 by Jeremy Keith and this IRC was referenced in the back of the book. Greetings.
  66. # [01:40] <boogyman> jv_: welcome
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  68. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> jv_: howdy
  69. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> pretty cool that the channel is feature on a book cover
  70. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> even if it's just the back cover
  71. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> Jeremy++
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  212. # Session Close: Thu Nov 26 08:30:07 2015
  213. #
  214. # Session Start: Thu Nov 26 08:30:07 2015
  215. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  217. # [08:31] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  219. # [08:31] * Topic is 'https://whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  220. # [08:31] * Set by MikeSmith!~mike@sideshowbarker.net on Wed Dec 10 17:23:43
  221. # [08:31] -orwell.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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  500. # [09:34] * annevk wonders where smaug does not have sufficient access to GitHub stuff
  501. # [09:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: that is a pretty interesting read
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  503. # [09:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: guess I left that session just when things got interesting
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  506. # [09:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: the first thirty or so minutes were just a lot of words for "uhm, what should we do"
  507. # [09:36] <annevk> Which as someone pointed out to me, isn't that different from how those sessions have been going for the past decade or so
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  530. # [09:58] <yoav_> annevk: Do you think we should wait on https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/119 in order to move forward with the feature detection outlines in https://github.com/whatwg/dom/pull/114 ?
  531. # [09:58] <annevk> yoav_: nah
  532. # [09:58] <yoav_> cool, that's what I thought
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  534. # [10:00] <yoav_> I'll prepare a separate PR with `supported()`
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  537. # [10:02] <zcorpan> have we decided on A vs B vs C?
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  542. # [10:04] <zcorpan> i think i prefer A because it leaves classList alone and makes it obvious how to feature-check for something moving from like-classList to like-relList
  543. # [10:05] <zcorpan> i can take a stab at merging the DOMTokenLists
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  545. # [10:06] <yoav_> zcorpan: I have no particular preference there, as I don't think it will make much of a difference
  546. # [10:07] <yoav_> It's something that developers shouldn't do, as it tell them nothing
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  554. # [10:16] <yoav> zcorpan: how are mutual DOM/HTML spec changes done?
  555. # [10:17] <zcorpan> yoav: PR both i guess?
  556. # [10:18] <yoav> OK
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  558. # [10:21] <zcorpan> in httparchive i only see http://www.gstatic.com/caja/5678/es53-taming-frame.opt.js?debug=1 containing "DOMSettableTokenList.prototype" but it was actually "TameDOMSettableTokenList.prototype"
  559. # [10:27] <yoav> so, it should be safe to simply add `value` to DOMTokenList?
  560. # [10:27] <yoav> zcorpan: or should we keep the prototype around?
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  563. # [10:29] <zcorpan> i think we don't need DOMSettableTokenList around. but there is a possibility of course that pages set prototype.value on DOMTokenList and assume it does not affect DOMSettableTokenList. unlikely though
  564. # [10:29] <yoav> yeah, I agree that it's unlikely
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  572. # [10:32] <zcorpan> all i can find is classList polyfills
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  595. # [10:37] <zcorpan> annevk: "Yes, the names {{DOMTokenList}} and {{DOMSettableTokenList}}are unfortunate legacy mishaps." does this note still apply if they are merged?
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  603. # [10:50] <annevk> zcorpan: yes
  604. # [10:50] <annevk> zcorpan: they're ordered sets, lists can contain duplicates
  605. # [10:51] <zcorpan> ok, it wasn't clear to me what the note was referring to
  606. # [10:53] <zcorpan> hmm my bikeshed isn't curling the ' in <var>options</var>'
  607. # [10:53] <annevk> zcorpan: update?
  608. # [10:54] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah just did. looks like it fixed it
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  612. # [11:05] <annevk> zcorpan: ta
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  617. # [11:23] <zcorpan> yoav: ok i've PR-ed dom and html now
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  635. # [12:11] <yoav> zcorpan: cool!
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  655. # [13:23] <nox> annevk: Is it well-known that replaceChild is badly-specified?
  656. # [13:23] <philipj> smaug____: with the removal of SVGSVGElement.currentView/useCurrentView, do you envision some other stuff also being ripped out, like #svgView(...)?
  657. # [13:23] <philipj> davve` is poking at this
  658. # [13:24] * davve` is now known as davve
  659. # [13:25] <annevk> nox: not to me
  660. # [13:25] <nox> annevk: if node == child, how do we remove child once node was adopted?
  661. # [13:27] <smaug____> philipj: hmm
  662. # [13:27] <annevk> nox: I guess it needs a non-null parent check, good find
  663. # [13:27] <nox> annevk: I think we can just adopt only if node != child.
  664. # [13:27] <smaug____> philipj: ask heycam?
  665. # [13:27] <annevk> nox: fair
  666. # [13:27] <annevk> nox: do you want to patch or shall I?
  667. # [13:28] <nox> annevk: Anyway, just tried that in Servo and WPT now timeouts even if I make a dummy test suite with 0 tests. :) Will look into it and make a patch in the end. :)
  668. # [13:28] * nox is slowly driven insane by this.
  669. # [13:29] <annevk> nox: interesting
  670. # [13:29] <annevk> nox: (not the part about you going insane)
  671. # [13:29] <nox> annevk: Servo just doesn't mutate anything in the tree if node == child.
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  673. # [13:29] <nox> It took me two days to realise that was why the range tests related to replaceChild were failing.
  674. # [13:29] <nox> So I remove that shortcut, and Servo now panics, trying to remove 'child' which doesn't have a parent anymore.
  675. # [13:29] <smaug____> curious, (I wasn't aware of https://wicg.github.io/BackgroundSync/spec/ so started to think this) is there some comprehensive test suite for service workers, or will we end up with very different kinds of service workers in different UAs when new features are being added
  676. # [13:30] <nox> So I conditionally adopt 'node' only if it is different than 'child', and now everything timeouts.
  677. # [13:30] * nox cries.
  678. # [13:30] <smaug____> last time I tried to do something with SW it was hard because blink implemented features Foo from the spec and Gecko features Bar
  679. # [13:31] <annevk> smaug____: I think WPT has tests
  680. # [13:31] <smaug____> luckily the spec has some redundancy (duplicated stuff) and FooBar worked in my case
  681. # [13:31] <annevk> smaug____: btw, yesterday you mentioned not being able to edit the title on a GitHub issue, where did that happen? I might be able to give you the relevant permissions (if that is indeed the problem)
  682. # [13:32] <annevk> nox: :-(
  683. # [13:32] <smaug____> it was webperf, but I think it was some network issue
  684. # [13:32] <smaug____> I closed that bug and just opened a new one
  685. # [13:32] <annevk> Oh, don't really control that, MikeSmith can probably give you permissions there
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  690. # [13:36] <smaug____> oh, now I recall, I should file yet another bug. Resource hints spec doesn't hint what dns-prefetch should actually do
  691. # [13:37] <smaug____> all it says "The dns-prefetch relation is used to indicate an origin"
  692. # [13:37] <smaug____> oh, hmm, maybe it is fine after all
  693. # [13:38] <annevk> I've been working with Ilya on getting some of Resource Hints better defined
  694. # [13:38] <annevk> Haven't really looked at everything, but e.g., preconnect now hooks into primitives in Fetch
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  696. # [13:39] <smaug____> preconnect case does talk about DNS lookup
  697. # [13:39] <smaug____> but dns-prefetch doesn't
  698. # [13:40] <annevk> Oh yeah, the dns-prefetch definition is pretty vague
  699. # [13:40] <annevk> I wonder when you want to use dns-prefetch but not preconnect
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  701. # [13:43] <smaug____> perhaps dns-prefetch more and earlier, and then preconnect when mouse is moved over some link or so
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  707. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> smaug____: lemme know if I need to set you up with perms for something
  708. # [13:50] <smaug____> nah, it was probably me doing something silly
  709. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> k
  710. # [13:51] <smaug____> (or even more likely some network issues)
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  759. # [16:25] <nox> annevk: http://logs.glob.uno/?c=mozilla%23servo#c307273 What do you think of this?
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  761. # [16:25] <nox> annevk: Is that a spec bug, or an unfortunate thing we can't do anything about, and piggy-backing mutation observers to update childNodes was a bid idea?
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  763. # [16:26] <nox> Mmmh wait, no never mind, that's still wrong.
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  766. # [16:30] <yoav> annevk: Thoughts on https://github.com/w3c/preload/issues/37 ?
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  773. # [17:00] <annevk> yoav: *sigh*
  774. # [17:00] <annevk> yoav: each time this thing comes up it takes me so long to wrap my head around all of it
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  776. # [17:01] <yoav> I can relate :)
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  778. # [17:01] <annevk> yoav: so "as" is parallel to "type" precisely because we don't want it to interfere with CSP
  779. # [17:02] <annevk> yoav: so I think CSP should just be connect-src
  780. # [17:02] <annevk> yoav: having said that, we should really define preload in terms of Fetch, including the preload store and such
  781. # [17:02] <annevk> yoav: has that already happened?
  782. # [17:02] <yoav> But then users need to define every domain/path twice
  783. # [17:03] <annevk> yoav: the last time I spoke with igrigorik that was the plan
  784. # [17:04] <yoav> I don't think that preload was already defined in terms of Fetch
  785. # [17:04] <annevk> yoav: okay, so if the preload store has a strong tie between the request url and the request type/as, perhaps you can use the "as" value for CSP
  786. # [17:04] <annevk> yoav: right, the plan was to define it in terms of Fetch, so it would be more clear what the various security properties would be and how we could keep things secure
  787. # [17:05] <annevk> nox: I'm going with "never mind", if you still want me to look, let me know!
  788. # [17:05] <nox> annevk: Never mind, but conditionally removing is wrong in replaceChild. The conditional operation if node != child should be the adoption.
  789. # [17:05] <nox> annevk: That's why my code crashed.
  790. # [17:06] <annevk> nox: okay, that's you suggested earlier today too, right?
  791. # [17:06] <nox> If you conditionally remove after adopting, mutation observers will see the original node being removed twice and added once. :)
  792. # [17:06] <yoav> annevk: I want to get mkwst's blessing, but I think setting the context based on type would be best, avoiding the user to redefine everything twice, while not creating CSP holes
  793. # [17:07] <annevk> yoav: for that the "preload store" needs to have a strong tie between things
  794. # [17:07] <annevk> yoav: I went over this with igrigorik a while back
  795. # [17:08] <yoav> annevk: OK. I think that the preload store is still in the "to be defined" stage
  796. # [17:10] <annevk> yoav: I summarized my position in the issue
  797. # [17:10] <yoav> annevk: Thanks! :)
  798. # [17:10] <annevk> nox: I'd appreciate a PR, but let me know if you want me to do it
  799. # [17:10] <nox> annevk: Will do.
  800. # [17:10] <nox> annevk: Too fixated on making my code work first. :)
  801. # [17:11] <annevk> fair
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  803. # [17:24] <Ms2ger> Anyone know websockets?
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  805. # [17:25] <Ms2ger> If a server sends malformed utf-8 in a text frame, what should the event's data attribute return?
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  807. # [17:26] <caitp> s/malformed sequence/\uFFFD/?
  808. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> Eh
  809. # [17:26] * Ms2ger files a wpt issue
  810. # [17:26] <caitp> i'm just guessing, I have no idea
  811. # [17:27] <caitp> I expect some implementations truncate the text, some replace with a ?, or \uFFFD, or something else?
  812. # [17:27] <caitp> never seen anyone really use it
  813. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/2378
  814. # [17:29] <smaug____> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6455#section-8.1
  815. # [17:31] <smaug____> Ms2ger: writing WebSocket impl for Servo?
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  817. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> No, reviewing an API change in the library we use
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  819. # [17:32] <gsnedders> line-height is the most stupidly defined CSS property ever <_<
  820. # [17:32] <gsnedders> (I realise I voice this on a near weekly basis. It keeps on biting.)
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  827. # [17:35] <smaug____> igrigorik: do you have some good tools for testing Resource Hints implementations?
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  1334. # [20:43] <smaug____> anyone want to review a wpt testchange?
  1335. # [20:43] <smaug____> MutationObserver stuff
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  1397. # [21:39] <nox> annevk: Mmmh. I still wonder whether it makes more sense to conditionally adopt `node` or to conditionally remove `child`. What do you think?
  1398. # [21:40] <nox> If we conditionally adopt `node`, there should be a single mutation record queued, with addedNodes = removedNodes = [node].
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  1400. # [21:41] <nox> If we conditionally remove `child`, there should be two mutation records queued, the first with removedNodes = [node], the other with addedNodes = [child].
  1401. # [21:42] <annevk> nox: what do implementations do?
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  1403. # [21:43] <nox> annevk: No clue.
  1404. # [21:43] <nox> annevk: You're the expert. :P
  1405. # [21:43] <annevk> nox: I'd probably write a test first
  1406. # [21:43] <annevk> nox: but not now
  1407. # [21:43] <nox> annevk: There are tests. :'(
  1408. # [21:43] <nox> Well, for ranges.
  1409. # [21:43] <nox> But there is a comment that makes me cry. Let me find it.
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  1411. # [21:44] <annevk> Hmm I gotta go, sorry, will look tomorrow
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  1449. # [22:10] <nox> annevk: Safari queues 0 records, Firefox 2, my patch 1.
  1450. # [22:10] * Quits: rego (~rego@77.27.193.66) (Quit: Leaving)
  1451. # [22:10] <nox> Sorry.
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  1453. # [22:13] <caitp-> is that good or bad
  1454. # [22:13] <nox> caitp-: Bad, I would say.
  1455. # [22:14] <caitp-> oh :(
  1456. # [22:14] <nox> I think Safari returns early when replacing a child by itself (I wonder if it passes the related Range tests then).
  1457. # [22:14] <nox> And Firefox queues a removal, and then a replacement of the removed thing by itself.
  1458. # [22:14] <nox> So (you see the thing being removed twice.)
  1459. # [22:14] <nox> I can't parenthesis.
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  1471. # [22:36] <nox> Chrome says 0 too. So that must be in WebKit.
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  1473. # [22:37] <caitp-> i'm still not even sure what you're talking about
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  1478. # [22:45] <nox> caitp-: I'm talking about the behaviour of https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-node-replace with regard to the queued mutation records for all the mutations done by the algorithm.
  1479. # [22:46] <nox> caitp-: That's for annevk's backlog. :)
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  1481. # [22:46] <nox> https://github.com/WebKit/webkit/blob/master/Source/WebCore/dom/ContainerNode.cpp#L399-L400 WebKit shortcuts everything if node == child, even the sanity check done the method, that definitely doesn't seem the way to go.
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  1483. # [22:47] <caitp-> as usual, the answer is to do the wrong thing faster than anyone else
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  1487. # [22:51] <nox> caitp-: Ah ah.
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