/irc-logs / w3c / #xhtml / 2007-04-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 18 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #xhtml
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  32. # [15:57] <Steven> zakim, this will be html
  33. # [15:57] <Zakim> ok, Steven, I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM already started
  34. # [15:57] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  35. # [15:57] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-irc
  36. # [15:57] <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
  37. # [15:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Steven
  38. # [15:57] <Steven> zakim, who is here?
  39. # [15:57] <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM
  40. # [15:57] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, alessio, gavin_, ShaneM, markbirbeck, krijnh
  41. # [15:57] <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
  42. # [15:57] <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
  43. # [15:57] <Zakim> +Steven
  44. # [15:58] <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
  45. # [15:58] <Steven> Chair: Steven
  46. # [15:58] <ShaneM> There is substantial danger I will have to leave around :45
  47. # [15:58] <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013
  48. # [15:59] * Steven changes topic to 'Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013'
  49. # [15:59] <Steven> Regrets: Rich, Yam
  50. # [16:00] <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes Previous
  51. # [16:01] <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
  52. # [16:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
  53. # [16:01] <Steven> xhtml Mark
  54. # [16:01] <Zakim> + +44.207.689.aaaa
  55. # [16:01] <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
  56. # [16:01] <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
  57. # [16:02] <Zakim> +??P28
  58. # [16:03] <Steven> zakim, ??P28 is Alessio
  59. # [16:03] <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
  60. # [16:06] <Steven> Scribe: Steven
  61. # [16:06] <Steven> Alessio: I am based in Rome, and travel between Italy and Switzerland on projects.
  62. # [16:06] <Steven> ... I represent IWA here
  63. # [16:07] <Steven> ... It is good to be here, to know XHTML2
  64. # [16:07] <Steven> ... I have projects using SMIL
  65. # [16:07] <Steven> ... I am interested in ontologies, and semantics
  66. # [16:07] <Steven> Steven: Welcome!
  67. # [16:08] <ShaneM> I nominate Steven as acting Chair
  68. # [16:08] <ShaneM> markbirbeck: second
  69. # [16:10] <Steven> Topic: Actions
  70. # [16:11] <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Mark to write up stuff about role as predicate. [recorded in
  71. # [16:11] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action06]
  72. # [16:11] <Steven> -- continues
  73. # [16:11] <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Shane to include the role module into the example xhtml+rdfa
  74. # [16:11] <Steven> driver [recorded in
  75. # [16:11] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action07]
  76. # [16:11] <Steven> -- done]
  77. # [16:11] <Steven> s/]//
  78. # [16:13] <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Steven to propose a rephrasing of the about atribute
  79. # [16:13] <Steven> inheritance rules. [recorded in
  80. # [16:13] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action05]
  81. # [16:13] <Steven> - comtinues
  82. # [16:13] <Steven> s/m/n/
  83. # [16:13] <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Steven and Shane to deal with Schema WG M12N Comments
  84. # [16:13] <Steven> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-html-minutes.html#action03]
  85. # [16:13] <Steven> -- continues
  86. # [16:14] <Steven> Topic: Media type issue
  87. # [16:14] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes#item05
  88. # [16:15] <Steven> Alessio: We have this sort of problem with IE as well
  89. # [16:15] <Steven> ... and we are moving to Firefox
  90. # [16:15] <Steven> ... we need an interim solution
  91. # [16:16] <Steven> Steven: The issue for us at the moment is about this page:
  92. # [16:16] <Steven> .... http://wwww.w3.org/Markup/Drafts
  93. # [16:16] <alessio> we could try to support correct visualization via scripting
  94. # [16:16] <ShaneM> something like that.
  95. # [16:16] <Steven> s/ww/w/
  96. # [16:16] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Markup/Drafts
  97. # [16:17] <Steven> Alessio: We need a practical solution
  98. # [16:17] <Steven> ... I want to promote these standards
  99. # [16:18] <ShaneM> we *could* set header negotiation so the page is sent as text/html
  100. # [16:19] <Steven> Steven: I think we can get IE to sniff; just need to find out how
  101. # [16:19] <alessio> yes
  102. # [16:19] <Steven> Mark: THe browser doesn't say it can accept app/xhtml+xml
  103. # [16:19] <Steven> Shane: Yes it does, it uses */* at the end
  104. # [16:20] <Steven> s/TH/Th/
  105. # [16:20] <Steven> My problem is that I have a plugin that accepts app/xhtml+xml
  106. # [16:21] <Steven> So it's hard for me to test
  107. # [16:21] <Steven> Mark: We can send it as two docs and content negotiate
  108. # [16:21] <Steven> ... we can challenge the statement that XHTML cannot be served as text/html
  109. # [16:22] <Steven> Alessio: I agree; on IE we are just sending a representation
  110. # [16:23] <Steven> Steven: You think it is OK to send as text/html
  111. # [16:23] <Steven> Alessio: Yes, but only to IE
  112. # [16:23] * Parts: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30)
  113. # [16:24] * Joins: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30)
  114. # [16:24] <Steven> Mark: Leave off the xml-stylesheet at the top
  115. # [16:24] <Steven> Shane: It is not a simple problem
  116. # [16:24] <Steven> ... I have spent days on this
  117. # [16:24] <Steven> ... We could do a .htaccess on this, but I don't think we can tell the world to do it
  118. # [16:25] <alessio> Unfortunately we know that browser doesn't support application/xhtml, so it could be a further "message" to IE developers and, why not, for UUAG
  119. # [16:25] <Steven> ACTION: Shane to do a .htaccess on Drafts page and see if that helps
  120. # [16:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
  121. # [16:26] <Steven> Shane: The RDFa is still not right on that page either
  122. # [16:26] <Steven> Steven: We can work on that
  123. # [16:26] <Steven> Topic: [XHTML1.1] Error in Conformance Definition document?
  124. # [16:26] <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0002
  125. # [16:28] <Steven> Shane: There are people who feel strongly that XHTML must not be served as text/html
  126. # [16:28] <ShaneM> FYI: Melinda feels that text/html is legitimate in some contexts.
  127. # [16:29] <Steven> Steven: Two positions 1) Purist, which is valid, because it does charencoding right for instance
  128. # [16:30] <Steven> ... 2) Pragmatic, since the main UA doesn't accept the needed media type, but can render properly, then just use text/html as a request for UA
  129. # [16:30] <alessio> for example, some js command to embedded multimedia objects don't work application/xhtml+xml
  130. # [16:30] <Steven> Mark: Yes, you could see the media type as a switch between apps; let the app decide when it sees the document
  131. # [16:30] <alessio> yes, I agree
  132. # [16:31] <Steven> ... look what happens when IE sees text/plain for instance
  133. # [16:31] <Steven> Shane: There is the issue of the difference between HTML and XHTML CSS rules
  134. # [16:33] <Steven> Mark: I suspect that the areas for ambiguity between UAs is less with XHTML than HTML
  135. # [16:33] <Steven> ... since (assuming it is good XHTML) it is well formed at least
  136. # [16:34] <Steven> ... most articles I read on this get down to the issue that authors get confused
  137. # [16:34] <Steven> ... this is a non-argument
  138. # [16:35] <Steven> Steven: I think we cannot agree to this request
  139. # [16:36] <Steven> Shane: The mobile community want to use other media types too
  140. # [16:36] <Steven> Steven: We say SHOULD because we want it to be like that, but the current state of UAs is so poor that authors have to be given other possibilities
  141. # [16:37] <ShaneM> and that's a good reason too.
  142. # [16:38] <Steven> Mark: We should adopt the position that the document is different from the rendering of the document
  143. # [16:40] <Steven> Shane: I agree, we don't require an XML parser, just something that behaves like it
  144. # [16:40] <Steven> ... HTML 4 says that it is SGML, but there are no UAs that do that
  145. # [16:40] <Steven> ... so text/html has different parsing rules, but they aren't supported either
  146. # [16:41] <Steven> Mark: Why do we care about the aprsing?
  147. # [16:41] <Steven> s/apr/par/
  148. # [16:41] <Steven> SHane: Failure mode
  149. # [16:41] <Steven> s/SH/Sh/
  150. # [16:41] <Steven> Mark: Why do we care about that
  151. # [16:42] <Steven> Shane: We don't, but the HTML community wants tag soup to be valid
  152. # [16:42] <Steven> s/that/that?/
  153. # [16:43] <Steven> Mark: We should just say, if you are not well-formed, it is undefined what a UA does
  154. # [16:43] <Steven> Steven: We do say that
  155. # [16:43] <Steven> Mark: We shouldn't say that it aborts, just that it is undefined
  156. # [16:44] <Steven> ... the current behaviour of Firefox is to abort
  157. # [16:44] <Steven> ... why bother
  158. # [16:44] <ShaneM> Mark Proposal: define that user agent behavior is undefined in the presence of invalid / non-well formed content
  159. # [16:44] <Steven> Steven: Because XML says it should
  160. # [16:44] <Steven> s/bother/bother?/
  161. # [16:45] <Steven> Alessio: This would be a great help to the developer
  162. # [16:46] <ShaneM> we currently say this (in XHTML 2): #
  163. # [16:46] <ShaneM>
  164. # [16:46] <ShaneM> The user agent must parse and evaluate an XHTML 2 document for well-formedness. If the user agent claims to be a validating user agent, it must also validate documents against a referenced schema according to [XML].
  165. # [16:46] <alessio> browser itself validates...
  166. # [16:47] <Steven> Steven: This discussion just supports our discussion in Venice
  167. # [16:48] <Steven> ... we leave space for people to do a best-effort at delivering the stuff to the end user, which after all, is what it is all about
  168. # [16:49] <ShaneM> Documents COnformance: A conforming XHTML family document is a valid instance of an XHTML Host Language Conforming Document Type.
  169. # [16:49] <Steven> Shane: Actually, our conformance still seems to match what we want
  170. # [16:50] <Steven> Shane: We just need to make explicit that behaviour is undefined for invalid docs
  171. # [16:51] <ShaneM> For the avoidance of doubt,. the behavior of user agents in the presence of invalid documents is undefined.
  172. # [16:52] <Steven> Shane: Validity is determined by the doctype
  173. # [16:52] <Steven> ... which includes the ability to handle />
  174. # [16:54] <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add clarification to section 3.4 of M12N 1.1
  175. # [16:54] * RRSAgent records action 2
  176. # [16:54] <Zakim> -ShaneM
  177. # [16:54] <Steven> RESOLUTION: In the current state of UAs, we cannot make this a MUST
  178. # [16:54] <Steven> s/In/With/
  179. # [16:54] <Zakim> -Steven
  180. # [16:54] <Zakim> -markbirbeck
  181. # [16:54] <Steven> ADJOURNED
  182. # [16:54] <Zakim> -Alessio
  183. # [16:55] <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
  184. # [16:55] <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, +44.207.689.aaaa, markbirbeck, Alessio
  185. # [16:55] <Steven> rrsagen, make minutes
  186. # [16:55] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
  187. # [16:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
  188. # [16:57] <alessio> I have some rust on my spoken english, be patient :)
  189. # [16:58] <alessio> bye all
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  193. # [18:29] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  203. # Session Close: Thu Apr 19 00:00:00 2007

The end :)