/irc-logs / w3c / #xhtml / 2007-04-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #xhtml
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13) (Ping timeout)
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  26. # [15:53] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  27. # [15:53] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/25-xhtml-irc
  28. # [15:53] <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
  29. # [15:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Steven
  30. # [15:53] <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
  31. # [15:53] <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
  32. # [15:53] <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
  33. # [15:54] <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0030
  34. # [15:54] * Steven changes topic to 'Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0030'
  35. # [15:55] <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes Previous
  36. # [15:55] * Joins: alessio (acartocci@151.32.30.85)
  37. # [15:56] <alessio> hi steven, shane, all...
  38. # [15:57] <Steven> Hi there Alessio
  39. # [15:58] * Joins: yamx (sample@122.26.65.56)
  40. # [16:03] <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
  41. # [16:03] <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
  42. # [16:03] <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
  43. # [16:03] <Zakim> +Steven
  44. # [16:03] <Zakim> +ShaneM
  45. # [16:03] <Zakim> -ShaneM
  46. # [16:03] <Zakim> +ShaneM
  47. # [16:03] * Quits: yamx (sample@122.26.65.56) (Ping timeout)
  48. # [16:04] <Zakim> +??P36
  49. # [16:04] <Zakim> +??P35
  50. # [16:04] * Joins: yamx (sample@122.26.65.56)
  51. # [16:05] <yamx> I just joined in tel (Yam)
  52. # [16:05] <alessio> idem, now
  53. # [16:05] <alessio> i'm second
  54. # [16:05] <Steven> zakim, ??P35 is alessio
  55. # [16:05] <Zakim> +alessio; got it
  56. # [16:05] <Steven> zakim, ??p36 is yamx
  57. # [16:05] <Zakim> +yamx; got it
  58. # [16:05] <Steven> zakim, who is here?
  59. # [16:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, ShaneM, yamx, alessio
  60. # [16:05] <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, alessio, RRSAgent, Zakim, ShaneM, gavin_, Steven, Lachy, krijnh
  61. # [16:05] <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
  62. # [16:06] <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  63. # [16:06] * Joins: Rich (schwer@72.183.111.208)
  64. # [16:06] * Joins: markbirbeck (markbirbec@86.142.75.123)
  65. # [16:06] <Steven> Scribe: Steven
  66. # [16:06] <Steven> Topic: Announcements
  67. # [16:07] <Zakim> +??P6
  68. # [16:08] * ShaneM is muted
  69. # [16:08] <Steven> zakim, ??p6 is Rich
  70. # [16:08] <Zakim> +Rich; got it
  71. # [16:08] <Steven> Steven: THere are currently: 11 participants from 8 organizations
  72. # [16:08] <Steven> 2 Invited Experts
  73. # [16:08] <Steven> s/TH/Th/
  74. # [16:09] <Steven> ... I know of 2 more organisations and one more invited expert in the pipeline
  75. # [16:11] <Zakim> +Mark_Birbeck
  76. # [16:11] <Rich> what dates?
  77. # [16:11] <yamx> OMA has a meeting in Bangkok during June 11-15. (Yam)
  78. # [16:12] <Steven> Steven: We have the option of meeting face-to-face 11-12 June
  79. # [16:12] <Steven> ... at IBM in Hawthorne NY
  80. # [16:12] <Rich> that does not interfere with my PF meetings in germany - a plus
  81. # [16:13] <Steven> ACTION: Steven to ask WG by email if we should meet 11-12 June in NY
  82. # [16:13] * RRSAgent records action 1
  83. # [16:13] <ShaneM> For the record, I can likely make that assuming nothing bad happens. Ill parents etc.
  84. # [16:13] <Steven> Steven: Otherwsie we will have an editors meeting instead
  85. # [16:13] <Steven> s/sie/ise/
  86. # [16:14] <Steven> Rich: DId the charter get updated?
  87. # [16:14] <Steven> Steven: As far as I know
  88. # [16:15] <Steven> s/DI/Di/
  89. # [16:15] <ShaneM> I nominate Steven as chair for this meeting.
  90. # [16:15] <Steven> Rich: Do we have a chair yet?
  91. # [16:15] <Steven> Steven: No, not yet
  92. # [16:16] <yamx> I support the nomination (yam)
  93. # [16:16] <ShaneM> is the current topic "charter"
  94. # [16:17] <Steven> Shane: For the record, the charter still talks about "The accesskey module"
  95. # [16:17] <Steven> Topic: class/rel/rev/role and Curies
  96. # [16:17] <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0023
  97. # [16:18] <Steven> Mark: I can see a big difference, and no one else can
  98. # [16:19] <Steven> ... it's not so much role vs class, but should role be rdf:type
  99. # [16:19] <Steven> ... I'm not sure if everyone has tried it against all use cases
  100. # [16:20] <Steven> ... My next email at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0028.html
  101. # [16:20] <Steven> ... discusses it more fully
  102. # [16:20] <Steven> ... I know that Rich followed up saying that we want rdf:type
  103. # [16:21] <Steven> ... but when Raman first suggested role
  104. # [16:21] <Steven> ... his oly example seemed to use role just as a hint
  105. # [16:21] <Steven> s/oly/only/
  106. # [16:21] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  107. # [16:22] <Steven> ... so to repeat, I'm not sure that all examples have been testedagainst the idea that it represents rdf:type
  108. # [16:22] <Steven> s/tested/tested /
  109. # [16:22] <Steven> ... does @role give us a hook, where the rdfness is implied
  110. # [16:22] <Steven> ... or does role give us a first-order rdf:type?
  111. # [16:22] <ShaneM> is there another way to specify an rdf type in RDFa today?
  112. # [16:23] <Steven> Mark: We could further refine this
  113. # [16:23] <Steven> ... just as we say this is what we mean by rel/rev etc
  114. # [16:23] <Steven> ... we can say this with role
  115. # [16:24] <Steven> ... at present we use class, but the suggestion is to use role instead
  116. # [16:24] <Steven> ... and there is longthand <ling rel="rdf:type"...
  117. # [16:24] <Steven> s/ling/link/
  118. # [16:24] <Steven> s/thand/hand/
  119. # [16:24] <Steven> ... the question is about the shorthand
  120. # [16:24] * Zakim Steven, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  121. # [16:25] <Steven> Shane: I don't understand the subtleties
  122. # [16:25] <Steven> ... but I am very worried about using @class because of the legacy
  123. # [16:25] <Steven> ... on the other hand I understand the TF wants to take advantage of existing infrastructure
  124. # [16:26] <Steven> Mark: One discussion is whether we should use @class at all
  125. # [16:26] <Steven> ... I believe we should, though I accept that not everyone agrees
  126. # [16:27] <Steven> ... I expected a Dan Brickly to jump in and say "Ah! rdf:type this or that...", and that didn't happen
  127. # [16:27] <Steven> .. the 2 use cases at present are 1) Rich's case, where rdf:type is handy
  128. # [16:28] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  129. # [16:28] <Steven> ...2) THe mozilla/firefox one, where the element aquires the properties associated with that role
  130. # [16:28] <Steven> s/TH/Th/
  131. # [16:28] <Steven> s/2/ 2/
  132. # [16:29] <Steven> ... these are the accessibility extensions
  133. # [16:29] <Steven> Rich: Role links to the rdf role taxonomy
  134. # [16:29] <Zakim> -alessio
  135. # [16:30] * Joins: alessio_ (acartocci@151.32.30.85)
  136. # [16:30] <Steven> ... SAP, Google, IBM are using this stuff
  137. # [16:30] <Steven> .. and even IE is going to implement role!
  138. # [16:31] <Zakim> +??P0
  139. # [16:31] <Steven> ... (this is not official, but they really have to, to give access to the accessibility APIs)
  140. # [16:31] * Quits: alessio (acartocci@151.32.30.85) (Ping timeout)
  141. # [16:31] <Steven> zakim, ??P0 is alessio
  142. # [16:31] <Zakim> +alessio; got it
  143. # [16:31] <alessio_> yep :)
  144. # [16:31] <Steven> Mark: Will IE implement it in the same way?
  145. # [16:32] <Steven> Rich: It might
  146. # [16:32] <Steven> Mark: I'm trying to work out if it reflects on the role/rdf:type issue
  147. # [16:33] <Steven> Shane: I think it should be rdf:type
  148. # [16:33] <Steven> Rich: I agree
  149. # [16:33] <markbirbeck> <div rdf:type="range"> ... </div>
  150. # [16:33] <Steven> [Scribe got the last two wrong]
  151. # [16:34] <Steven> SHane: I think role = rdf:type is fine
  152. # [16:34] <Steven> s/SH/Sh/
  153. # [16:34] <markbirbeck> Have we simply said that role == rdf:type? Have we just created a shorthand?
  154. # [16:34] <Steven> Mark: THe problem is that if you make that decision once and for all, you can't undo it
  155. # [16:34] <Steven> s/TH/Th/
  156. # [16:34] <markbirbeck> <div role="range"> ... </div>
  157. # [16:35] <Steven> ... better to define it per document
  158. # [16:35] <markbirbeck> Something has a 'xh:role' of range...
  159. # [16:35] <Steven> ... and define a mapping if needed for a particular document
  160. # [16:36] <Rich> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/GUI/
  161. # [16:38] <Steven> Steven: What about <p role="rss:description".>
  162. # [16:38] <Steven> ... what is the rdf equivalent?
  163. # [16:38] <Steven> ... if we say it is per document, then I can't process that generically
  164. # [16:38] <Steven> Shane: THat should be @property
  165. # [16:39] <Steven> s/TH/Th/
  166. # [16:39] <Steven> Mark: No, because you need a predicate of type rdf:type
  167. # [16:39] <Steven> ... because rss:description is not a predicate
  168. # [16:39] <Steven> ... it is the object of a statement
  169. # [16:41] <ShaneM> I thought this was more correct:
  170. # [16:41] <ShaneM> <div id="xframes" about="#xframes" role="rss:item">
  171. # [16:41] <ShaneM> <h2 property="rss:title">XFrames</h2>
  172. # [16:41] <ShaneM> <p property="rss:description">An XML application for composing
  173. # [16:41] <ShaneM> documents together</p>
  174. # [16:41] <Steven> Mark: What I am wary of
  175. # [16:41] <Steven> ... if I have an item of type X
  176. # [16:42] <Steven> ... will there be a situation where that item doesn't take on *all* the properties of an X
  177. # [16:42] <Steven> ... in Raman's original example that was the case for instance
  178. # [16:42] <Steven> ... so is rdf:type correct here?
  179. # [16:43] <Steven> ... I'm scared we might have to invent a new attribute in a couple of years
  180. # [16:43] <Steven> Rich: Raman added role to a handler so he could tell what the handler was supposed to do
  181. # [16:45] <Steven> Mark: So you are saying this functionality can be got in a different way
  182. # [16:45] <Steven> s/way/way?/
  183. # [16:45] <Steven> Shane: At the AOL FtF we talked about this
  184. # [16:45] <Steven> ... and discussed the relationship between access/role and handlers
  185. # [16:45] <Steven> ... for handling with navbars and so on
  186. # [16:45] <Steven> ... Wasn't Raman there? Think so.
  187. # [16:46] <Steven> ... Anyway, I think the concept of role has evolved since then
  188. # [16:46] <Steven> Mark: Sure,we said let's use QNames to extend it, and let you use it with rdf
  189. # [16:46] <Steven> s/,/, /
  190. # [16:47] <Steven> ... the problems are similar to those of @class
  191. # [16:47] <Steven> \... class is left very vague
  192. # [16:47] <Steven> ... should we leave role vague, or define it hard-and-fast
  193. # [16:50] <Steven> Shane: Surely the fact that is rdf:type is only relevant in the presence of other context?
  194. # [16:51] <Steven> Rich: role has multi-values
  195. # [16:52] <Steven> ... doesn't that solve it?
  196. # [16:59] <ShaneM> My brain hurts.
  197. # [16:59] <Steven> [Fast discussion about what rdf;type implies]
  198. # [16:59] <Steven> s/;/:/
  199. # [17:00] <Steven> Mark: I mean that role and type are different, related but not equivalent
  200. # [17:00] <Steven> ... I have a date of birth, doesn't mean I am of type date of birth
  201. # [17:01] <Steven> Steven: That's different
  202. # [17:02] <Steven> ... if I have an element of role Mark Birbeck, then I would expect it to contain an element of role DoB
  203. # [17:02] <Steven> Mark: Don't confuse types with predicates
  204. # [17:03] <Steven> Steven: Top of hour; I think we have to just try to code up some examples and see what breaks
  205. # [17:03] <Rich> <owl:Class rdf:ID="roletype">
  206. # [17:03] <Rich> <rdfs:comment>This is a draft resource for adding semantic
  207. # [17:03] <Rich> annotations and information to Web resources. Knowing what the types of
  208. # [17:03] <Rich> content are in a Web page allows for better customized renderings. Including
  209. # [17:03] <Rich> want to allow information hiding, or rendering common types of content in a
  210. # [17:03] <Rich> consistent way - it makes the Web easer to use and more accessibility. You
  211. # [17:03] <Rich> can also use this for device independence so that content is better formatted
  212. # [17:03] <Rich> to fit on the device. </rdfs:comment>
  213. # [17:03] <Rich> <rdfs:subClassOf>
  214. # [17:03] <Steven> ... as a way of concluding something
  215. # [17:03] <Rich> <owl:Restriction>
  216. # [17:03] <Rich> <owl:onProperty rdf:resource="&dc;description"/>
  217. # [17:03] <Rich> <owl:cardinality rdf:datatype="&xsd;string">1</owl:cardinality>
  218. # [17:03] <Rich> </owl:Restriction>
  219. # [17:03] <Rich> </rdfs:subClassOf>
  220. # [17:03] <Rich> <rdfs:comment>You have to give each content type a title and
  221. # [17:03] <Rich> description sorry folks (just be glad I did not put a min length on the
  222. # [17:03] <Rich> description</rdfs:comment>
  223. # [17:04] <Rich> <role:supportedState rdf:resource="&states;describedby"/>
  224. # [17:04] <Rich> </owl:Class>
  225. # [17:04] <Zakim> -ShaneM
  226. # [17:04] <Rich> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/GUI/
  227. # [17:05] <alessio_> I agree with Steven for concrete examples
  228. # [17:05] <Steven> ADJOURN
  229. # [17:05] <Zakim> -Steven
  230. # [17:05] <Zakim> -Mark_Birbeck
  231. # [17:05] <Zakim> -yamx
  232. # [17:05] <Steven> Action: Steven to create some role use cases
  233. # [17:05] * RRSAgent records action 2
  234. # [17:05] <Zakim> -alessio
  235. # [17:05] * Quits: Rich (schwer@72.183.111.208) (Quit: Rich)
  236. # [17:05] * Quits: yamx (sample@122.26.65.56) (Quit: CHOCOA)
  237. # [17:06] <markbirbeck> As I said, the problem is not in the mark-up, but in the triples generated, so it's not really a case of finding sample mark-up.
  238. # [17:06] <Zakim> -Rich
  239. # [17:06] <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
  240. # [17:06] <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, ShaneM, alessio, yamx, Rich, Mark_Birbeck
  241. # [17:06] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
  242. # [17:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/25-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
  243. # [17:07] <alessio_> bye all :)
  244. # [17:07] * Parts: alessio_ (acartocci@151.32.30.85)
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  247. # [18:39] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  248. # [18:39] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  249. # [19:55] * Quits: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13) (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)
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  251. # [20:57] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  252. # [21:28] * Quits: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  253. # Session Close: Thu Apr 26 00:00:00 2007

The end :)