/irc-logs / w3c / #xhtml / 2008-02-20 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 20 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #xhtml
  3. # [01:58] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124)
  4. # [02:47] * Parts: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124)
  5. # [02:53] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.138)
  6. # [09:18] * Joins: Roland_ (Roland@87.24.46.148)
  7. # [09:19] <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
  8. # [09:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
  9. # [09:20] * Joins: Roland__ (Roland@87.24.46.148)
  10. # [09:20] * Quits: Roland_ (Roland@87.24.46.148) (Connection reset by peer)
  11. # [09:22] <Roland__> Zakim, list
  12. # [09:24] * Joins: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148)
  13. # [09:25] <yamx> (Roland and Yam are here...)
  14. # [09:28] * Joins: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148)
  15. # [09:28] <yamx> (Steven had a trouble with his foot last night.... He will not be in his room, but will skype in...)
  16. # [09:28] <yamx> s/his room/this room/
  17. # [09:29] <Roland__> Chair: Roland
  18. # [09:29] <Roland__> Scribe: Yam
  19. # [09:29] <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes
  20. # [09:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
  21. # [09:30] <yamx> Topic: XML Events 2 (continued from yesterday)
  22. # [09:31] <oedipus> morning - hope steve's ok...
  23. # [09:32] <yamx> Hope so...
  24. # [09:32] <yamx> His ankle is improved, I heard.
  25. # [09:32] <Roland__> Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Venice, Italy, Day 3
  26. # [09:32] <oedipus> that's good to hear
  27. # [09:33] <Roland__> Present: Roland, Yam, Gregory, Simone
  28. # [09:34] * Simone if is needed ask me for skype audio-connection
  29. # [09:34] <yamx> Roland: we have some issues stated in Agenda.
  30. # [09:34] <Roland__> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-02-Venice-FtF-Agenda
  31. # [09:35] <Roland__> Regrets: Tina
  32. # [09:35] <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes
  33. # [09:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
  34. # [09:36] <yamx> John's comments in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/29-xhtml-minutes.html#action02 ?
  35. # [09:37] <Roland__> ScribeNick: yamx
  36. # [09:39] <yamx> Roland: I just want to know where we are about actions.
  37. # [09:40] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124)
  38. # [09:40] <yamx> Roland: The first part (we clarified it in capture, target, bubble, default), we changed. So the issue is only action (Mark).
  39. # [09:42] <yamx> Roland: Resolution on Aug 29 2007 said we have to investigate part 2, in 0011 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0011)
  40. # [09:43] <yamx> Roland: We make default as bubble, but bubble includes "bubble" and "target" phases, so it is OK with the original issue.
  41. # [09:44] <oedipus> roland, are you referring to jon's point: "if the bubble phase does exclude the target phase, then it seems like you will need a way to say target+bubble. For symmetry, I'll bet you need capture+target too. The only names that come to mind right now are"ascent" (target+bubble) and "descent" (capture+target)."
  42. # [09:48] <Roland__> yesterday we concluded that bubble phase includes the target phase. I am now looking to find where in the DOM 3 Events specs that is says this.
  43. # [09:54] * Simone if is needed ask me for skype audio-connection :-)
  44. # [09:55] <yamx> Roland: In DOM3 Event, on addEventListener, useCapture parameter is a boolean.
  45. # [09:56] <yamx> Roland: , which means "capture" or "target and bubbling". only one of them.
  46. # [09:56] <Roland__> Section 1.6 Basic interfaces -- http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-interface
  47. # [09:57] <yamx> Roland: it is not so clear, but seems implied.
  48. # [09:58] <yamx> Roland: All the changes we made deal with 0011 raised by John.
  49. # [09:58] <Roland__> Present: Alessio
  50. # [09:58] <yamx> Roland: next issue is 0012 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0012)
  51. # [09:59] * Joins: alessio (acartocci@87.24.46.148)
  52. # [10:00] <ShaneM> I think 0012 is somewhat incorrect. xml events 2 DOES specify a context.
  53. # [10:00] <ShaneM> see section 6.
  54. # [10:00] <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes
  55. # [10:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland__
  56. # [10:05] <yamx> Roland: I remembered some discussion with XForms; they added context attribute.
  57. # [10:06] <yamx> Roland: maybe it is interesting to add context attribute if necessary, but not before we fix the current draft.
  58. # [10:07] <yamx> Roland: we keep it as it is, we have to further investigate the issue (do we really need this "context" attribute) in XML Events 2.
  59. # [10:07] <yamx> Roland: We defined the context in Sectoin 6 in XML Events 2.
  60. # [10:08] <yamx> Roland: Specifying context will be added if we identify any useful use cases.
  61. # [10:08] <yamx> Roland: Add a note about this (considering in the future in action element).
  62. # [10:08] <yamx> Shane: OK.
  63. # [10:09] <yamx> Roland: 0012 is done.
  64. # [10:09] <yamx> Roland: next issue is 0013 (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0013)
  65. # [10:10] <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add text about context issue near where if and while are described with the action element in xml events 2
  66. # [10:10] * RRSAgent records action 6
  67. # [10:15] * Joins: Steven-eee (user@128.30.52.30)
  68. # [10:16] * Steven-eee finally got the wireless connection
  69. # [10:16] <yamx> Roland: we think that event does not traverse to more than one DOM.
  70. # [10:16] * Steven-eee hidden network name
  71. # [10:16] <yamx> Roland: spelled out single DOM.
  72. # [10:17] <Roland__> John's note includes : Therefore, for the sake of clarity, please spell out the fact that the
  73. # [10:17] <Roland__> spec does not define any bubbling behavior between two DOMs and that
  74. # [10:17] <Roland__> events don't traverse more than one DOM unless a consumer of XML events
  75. # [10:17] <Roland__> defines a mechanism for dispatching events in one DOM based on the
  76. # [10:17] <Roland__> occurrence of events in another DOM.
  77. # [10:18] <Roland__> I would have expected that a "single DOM" was assumed but it appears not to be the case.
  78. # [10:18] * Steven-eee requests skype id being used
  79. # [10:19] * oedipus ask simone
  80. # [10:19] * Steven-eee thanks
  81. # [10:19] <alessio> simone is coming back soon
  82. # [10:19] <yamx> Roland: no harm to put a small note about single DOM, not bridging two DOMs.
  83. # [10:19] <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add a note that events do not bridge two DOMs
  84. # [10:19] * RRSAgent records action 7
  85. # [10:19] <Roland__> We could add a note to make it clear that the capture/bubbling is within the scope of a single DOM.
  86. # [10:20] * Steven-eee rrsagent, make minutes
  87. # [10:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven-eee
  88. # [10:20] <Roland__> Present: Steven
  89. # [10:20] <Steven-eee> s/:/+/
  90. # [10:21] <alessio> Hope you're feeling better, Steven...
  91. # [10:22] <Steven-eee> it is even better than first thing this morning Alessio, so I am optimitic
  92. # [10:22] <Steven-eee> stic
  93. # [10:23] <yamx> Roland: looking into the second problem in 0013.
  94. # [10:23] * ShaneM notes that the pub request for rdfa-syntax has been sent in. Draft is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/WD-rdfa-syntax-20080221
  95. # [10:24] <yamx> (the second issue is "For the second problem, I have to turn to the xforms repeat construct, and put a repeat within a repeat:)
  96. # [10:24] <yamx> s/t:)/t:")
  97. # [10:24] <Roland__> Present: Roland, Yam, Allessio, Simone, Gregory, Shane
  98. # [10:25] <ShaneM> [off] isn't mark here?
  99. # [10:27] <Steven-eee> Present+Steven
  100. # [10:27] * Steven-eee heard Roland clear his throat very well, but hears nothing else
  101. # [10:27] <yamx> Roland: we will probably solve the second issue, too. Hope John will review the latest spec to find out whether his issue is fixed.
  102. # [10:28] <yamx> Roland: we think we fiinshed all outstanding issues in XML Events 2.
  103. # [10:28] <yamx> Shane: I have a question about event attribute.
  104. # [10:29] <yamx> Shane: event attribute collection.
  105. # [10:29] <yamx> Roland: I imagine it is adequate.
  106. # [10:29] <yamx> Shane: working with new draft.
  107. # [10:29] <yamx> Roland: sounds good.
  108. # [10:29] <yamx> Roland: any more items on XML Events 2?
  109. # [10:30] <yamx> (none from participants)
  110. # [10:30] <yamx> Topic: frames (continued from yesterda)
  111. # [10:31] <yamx> Roland: suggests iframe back in XHTML2.
  112. # [10:31] <yamx> Roland: two types of containers should be clarified.
  113. # [10:31] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  114. # [10:31] * oedipus wonders if we ever took any action/decision on Steven's proposal: "So I propose adding in XML Events 2 <script src="xforms.js" type="..." implements="... NS URI ..." /> [...] @implements tells the system that if they have an implementation of that NS, ignore this scrpt" and to Shane's addition: "We can also do that with an @if that checks HASFEATURE so @implements is then a shorthand"
  115. # [10:32] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  116. # [10:32] <Steven-eee> Gregory, I believe we accepted that proposal
  117. # [10:32] <Steven-eee> to add 'implements'
  118. # [10:32] <ShaneM> I believe we did as well (@implements)
  119. # [10:32] <oedipus> thank you steven - i just wanted to make sure before we moved on
  120. # [10:32] <ShaneM> my plan is to add a comment about HASFEATURE and let someone smarter figure it out.
  121. # [10:32] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Quit: Leaving)
  122. # [10:33] <oedipus> that excludes me...
  123. # [10:33] <ShaneM> clearly ;-)
  124. # [10:33] <oedipus> ;-)
  125. # [10:33] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  126. # [10:34] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Client exited)
  127. # [10:35] <yamx> (Allesio presents something on the projector.)
  128. # [10:36] * Steven-eee hopes that alessio will summarise that on irc; sound is very poor
  129. # [10:36] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  130. # [10:37] <alessio> yes steven, I will
  131. # [10:37] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  132. # [10:40] <Roland__> network has slowed down now that we are sahing with WAI PF meeting next door :-)
  133. # [10:40] <alessio> so, we are analyzing the question of fallback for iframes
  134. # [10:40] <alessio> because one "classical" issue is the iframe poor accessibility
  135. # [10:41] * Joins: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30)
  136. # [10:42] <oedipus> many assistive technologies offer a "do not display iframe" option; for low vision users and alternate input users, it's the insane amount of scrolling
  137. # [10:43] <oedipus> GJR: that's how bad the problem is -- AT vendors would rather have people suppress IFRAME than design an alternate strategy
  138. # [10:45] <yamx> Yam: Combining multiple documents is some essential one, some umbrella spec, e.g. XML Events 2. Not ifrems back in.
  139. # [10:45] <oedipus> +1 to yam
  140. # [10:45] <yamx> s/ifrems/iframes/
  141. # [10:46] * Quits: sbuluf (wqfescj@200.49.132.70) (Quit: sbuluf)
  142. # [10:46] <yamx> s/some umbrella/possibly some umbrella/
  143. # [10:46] <alessio> right gregory, in fact we're only starting to explore a possibility to make an accessible object
  144. # [10:46] <alessio> unfortunately actually object is very buggy
  145. # [10:47] <Steven-eee> but we shouldn't let our *design* be constrained by existing buggy implementations
  146. # [10:47] <alessio> for example we cannot load dynamic data, even reloading the page
  147. # [10:47] <oedipus> yes, i just had that conversation in the HTML WG for the ten thousdandth time this week -- OBJECT with role over VIDEO, AUDIO, other stuff
  148. # [10:47] <Steven-eee> if necessary we make an 'cid test' for objec to embarrass the implementors
  149. # [10:47] <alessio> I agree steven
  150. # [10:47] <oedipus> me too
  151. # [10:47] <Steven-eee> s/cid/acid/
  152. # [10:47] <alessio> in fact that I'm starting to do yesterday :)
  153. # [10:48] <alessio> s/ing/ed
  154. # [10:48] <alessio> s/ing/ed/
  155. # [10:48] <oedipus> moving forward, into the future, ARIA politeness levels and other features will help with dynamic content accessibility
  156. # [10:50] <alessio> the goal is having a url like this: http://mypage.htm#src(f1=firstAddress,f2=secondAddress)
  157. # [10:50] <Roland__> we are just starting to look at what we would need from a new "container". Some of the the desirable characteristics of IFRAME should be explored. We are not suggesting that we reintroduce IFRAME as is was previously defined.
  158. # [10:50] <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/ object test
  159. # [10:50] <alessio> yes
  160. # [10:51] * ShaneM would think that the implementors are beyond embarassment at this point
  161. # [10:51] * oedipus everything but the embarrassment of riches...
  162. # [10:51] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  163. # [10:51] <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/object/results Object test results (not up to date)
  164. # [10:51] <Roland__> one characteristic we need is a separate security context
  165. # [10:51] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  166. # [10:51] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  167. # [10:52] * Steven-eee hopes Lachy will fix his connection soon
  168. # [10:53] <ShaneM> I think that data in an "iframe" should be in its own DOM really. its a separate, inset document. There should be no ability to communicate across the boundary.
  169. # [10:54] <yamx> Allesio: We have to introduce a method to load a content in a dynamic content.
  170. # [10:55] <yamx> s/dynamic content/dynamic manner/
  171. # [10:55] <ShaneM> you mean other than webapi/ajax?
  172. # [10:55] <yamx> sounds like.
  173. # [10:56] <alessio> yes shane
  174. # [10:56] <ShaneM> and other than the src attribute we already have that a script/handler could just change?
  175. # [10:56] <Roland__> Rather than "no ability" I believe the author of the containing document should determine what, if any, ability it wishes to grant the "iframe".
  176. # [10:56] <alessio> test url (kindly hosted by simone): http://w3c.onofri.org/test.htm#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)
  177. # [10:57] <alessio> yesterday I've tried to load dynamic content both in an object and iframe
  178. # [10:59] <alessio> object seems not to refresh its "data" attribute
  179. # [11:00] <alessio> iframe does refresh its "src"
  180. # [11:00] <yamx> Roland: Simone, what do people think iframes are bad.. ?
  181. # [11:00] <yamx> Roland: so not a problem on iframes, but issues with people's use of javascript.
  182. # [11:01] <Steven> iframes test doesn't work for me Opera, FF, IE
  183. # [11:03] <Roland__> rrsagent, make minutes
  184. # [11:03] * oedipus GJR thinks rrsagent needs to be told to make logs public
  185. # [11:03] * oedipus IRC log not appearing where it should
  186. # [11:04] <Roland__> rrsagent, make log public
  187. # [11:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Roland__
  188. # [11:04] * oedipus thanks!!!
  189. # [11:05] <alessio> maybe there are some problems with security policies, steven
  190. # [11:06] <Steven-eee> yes
  191. # [11:07] <alessio> Roland: anyway this is a problem we have to handle
  192. # [11:08] <Simone> as per default, browsers does not load something if there are not on the same domain of master page, this is an important issue on AJAXy applications ans as I see this is resolved using a proxy (server side)
  193. # [11:08] <alessio> true
  194. # [11:08] <Simone> s/ans/and
  195. # [11:08] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
  196. # [11:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
  197. # [11:12] * Lachy Steven-eee, what's wrong with my connection?
  198. # [11:13] * Steven-eee Lachy, you keep disconnecting and reconnecting automtically
  199. # [11:13] * Steven lost skype
  200. # [11:14] * Steven-eee (10:50:23 AM) Lachy left the room (quit: Client exited). (10:50:26 AM) Lachy [Lachlan@213.236.208.22] entered the room.
  201. # [11:14] * Quits: alessio (acartocci@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  202. # [11:14] * Steven Did the network drop?
  203. # [11:14] * Lachy that only happens when I put my laptop to sleep.
  204. # [11:14] <ShaneM> I think the network did drop
  205. # [11:14] * Quits: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  206. # [11:15] * Joins: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148)
  207. # [11:15] * Lachy then when it woke up, I needed to quit and restart IRC
  208. # [11:16] * Steven-eee it happened 5 times in the last 40 mins
  209. # [11:16] * Joins: alessio (acartocci@87.24.46.148)
  210. # [11:16] * Lachy was doing stuff on laptop that needed restarts
  211. # [11:16] * Lachy doesn't happen normally
  212. # [11:17] * Steven-eee ok
  213. # [11:17] * Steven-eee is muted
  214. # [11:23] * Steven-eee requests more scribing in order to follow the meeting better
  215. # [11:23] <Steven-eee> sound quality is not good enough to hear
  216. # [11:23] * oedipus since both the xhtml and pf channels went quiet at the same time, i thought everyone had taken a coffee break
  217. # [11:26] * ShaneM the built in microphone on simone's PC is just sort of muddy
  218. # [11:26] <yamx> (we have problems to show the loaded frames example.)
  219. # [11:26] <yamx> (Our network is very bad...)
  220. # [11:26] * Simone I'm not a PC, I'ma a MAC :)
  221. # [11:26] <yamx> (We are talking about the framework of container and needs for standardization in general.)
  222. # [11:26] <Steven-eee> (we noticed :-) )
  223. # [11:27] <Roland__> some discussion about what aspects of "container" support we should tackle as part of XHTML
  224. # [11:27] <alessio> maybe this woks: http://w3c.onofri.org/test.xml#src(f1=http://www.google.it,f2=http://www.w3.org)
  225. # [11:27] <Roland__> perhaps the container topic should be in a separate spec like we have done for XML events
  226. # [11:28] <alessio> s/wok/works/
  227. # [11:28] <yamx> But it is OK to talk it in XHTML2 framework, we can make it a separate spec if we find it appropriate in the future.
  228. # [11:28] * Simone and this is the build-in mac's mic (this is also more noise during calls)
  229. # [11:29] <Simone> for example, problem maybe the MIME type shipped by the server
  230. # [11:29] <ShaneM> good point.
  231. # [11:29] <Simone> now is XML and works
  232. # [11:29] <yamx> From my viewpoint, to describe logical relationships of multiple docs and to describe some screen layout info for multiple (possiblly ) indpendent applications are two different things.
  233. # [11:31] <yamx> Roland: we will have a few minutes break, and have a joint meeting with WAI.
  234. # [11:31] <yamx> Yam: do we have a meeting at WAI?
  235. # [11:31] <Steven-eee> which channel?
  236. # [11:32] <yamx> Roland: a good question. possibly at their place.
  237. # [11:32] <oedipus> the PF group is in #pf
  238. # [11:32] <Roland__> probably theirs as there are more of them
  239. # [11:32] <yamx> Yam: I agree.
  240. # [11:32] <Steven-eee> how long break?
  241. # [11:32] <Steven-eee> Long enouhg for me to shuffel to the cafe?
  242. # [11:32] <Steven-eee> s/shuffel/shuffle
  243. # [11:32] <Roland__> till they return, so hopefully not long. estimate 5-10mins
  244. # [11:33] * Steven-eee is now known as Steeeven
  245. # [11:37] * Simone Steven, Shane, now we're going to do a break, I'll recall you on skype
  246. # [11:49] <Roland__> WAI group joining us
  247. # [11:49] <Roland__> slowly assembling
  248. # [11:51] * oedipus simone, are you going to skype remote participants in?
  249. # [11:51] * Steeeven back
  250. # [11:52] * Steeeven votes for skype if poss
  251. # [11:54] <Roland__> we will use #pf channel for this first part of joint session
  252. # [11:55] <oedipus> ok
  253. # [11:55] * Quits: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148) (Quit: CHOCOA)
  254. # [12:05] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148)
  255. # [12:25] * Parts: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148)
  256. # [13:11] * Quits: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148) (Connection reset by peer)
  257. # [13:11] * Quits: Roland__ (Roland@87.24.46.148) (Connection reset by peer)
  258. # [13:12] * Joins: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148)
  259. # [13:12] * Quits: alessio (acartocci@87.24.46.148) (Connection reset by peer)
  260. # [13:29] * Quits: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124) (Ping timeout)
  261. # [13:42] * Joins: myakura (myakura@123.224.247.98)
  262. # [13:59] * Joins: Roland_ (Roland@87.24.46.148)
  263. # [14:02] * Quits: Steeeven (user@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  264. # [14:05] * Joins: Steven-eee (user@128.30.52.30)
  265. # [14:05] * Steven-eee is now known as Steeeven
  266. # [14:06] * Joins: MichaelC_VCE (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  267. # [14:07] * Joins: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148)
  268. # [14:07] <yamx> (after lunch break, we resume at #xhtml)
  269. # [14:07] <yamx> Scribe: Yam
  270. # [14:07] * Joins: Diego (Diego@62.13.172.78)
  271. # [14:08] * Joins: Dimitar_Denev (811aa406@128.30.52.23)
  272. # [14:09] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148)
  273. # [14:09] <yamx> Presence: Diego. AL, Roland, Rich, Allesso, Simone, Dimitar, Janina, Michael,
  274. # [14:09] <yamx> s/AL/Al/
  275. # [14:09] <yamx> s/./,/
  276. # [14:10] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13)
  277. # [14:10] <Steven> s/Presence/Present/
  278. # [14:10] <yamx> s/Michael/Michael, Yam/
  279. # [14:10] <Steven> Present+Steven
  280. # [14:10] <yamx> s/Yam/Yam, Steven/
  281. # [14:10] <Simone> s/Allesso/Alessio
  282. # [14:11] * Joins: alessio (acartocci@87.24.46.148)
  283. # [14:11] <yamx> Topic: ARIA
  284. # [14:11] <oedipus> present+Gregory
  285. # [14:11] <yamx> Al: I will present the overview.
  286. # [14:11] <yamx> .. for kick-it-off.
  287. # [14:11] <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
  288. # [14:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
  289. # [14:12] <yamx> Al: ARIA suite is on 1st working draft.
  290. # [14:12] <yamx> Al: this is already very close to last call, with a bunch of markups..
  291. # [14:12] <yamx> Al: engineering decision on browser behavior is close to "complete".
  292. # [14:13] <yamx> Al: New, first time to combine role and states in one document.
  293. # [14:13] * Quits: Steeeven (user@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  294. # [14:13] <yamx> Al: the other new thing is an approach embedding ARIA markup in a host language.
  295. # [14:14] <yamx> Al: we have two approaches, friendly to HTML5, the other is friendly to XHMTL1/XHTML2.
  296. # [14:14] <yamx> Al: included role attribute is used in HTML5-friendly way.
  297. # [14:15] <yamx> Al: new writeup should be reviewed by XHTML2, is it a deal you sign up to?
  298. # [14:15] <yamx> s/XHTML2/XHTML2-WG/
  299. # [14:16] <yamx> Al: to look for Firefox and Opera people to check its validity for them.
  300. # [14:16] <yamx> Al: missing something, raising a question about predefined role names..
  301. # [14:16] <yamx> Long-winded
  302. # [14:16] <yamx> Al: long-winded, (someone talking for a long time....)
  303. # [14:17] <yamx> Al: predefined role names, how you model web pages?
  304. # [14:17] * Joins: Rich (schwer@87.15.243.31)
  305. # [14:17] <yamx> s/how you/how do you/
  306. # [14:17] <MichaelC_VCE> -> ARIA Implementation in Host Languages http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-wai-aria-20080204/#implementation
  307. # [14:17] <yamx> Al: any outstanding issues between ARIA and XHTML2.
  308. # [14:18] <yamx> Michael: name-space friendly version; in HTML5, it is similar to role attributes: two wordings..
  309. # [14:18] <yamx> s/name-/one is name-/
  310. # [14:18] <yamx> s/in HTML5/the other for HTML5/
  311. # [14:19] * MichaelC_VCE "This attribute is derived from the XHTML Role Attribute Module [XHTML-ROLES] but is not technically an actual usage of that specification."
  312. # [14:19] <yamx> Al: CURIE.
  313. # [14:20] <yamx> Al: we should talk about access element, also.
  314. # [14:20] <yamx> Al: RDFa will come out last call shortly.
  315. # [14:20] <yamx> Al: we have to raise it, anything to be constructive...
  316. # [14:20] <yamx> Al: we are sure access module and role module to be covered.
  317. # [14:20] <yamx> Topic: CUIRE
  318. # [14:21] <yamx> Roland: hopefully short...
  319. # [14:21] <yamx> s/CUIRE/CURIE/
  320. # [14:22] * Joins: Steven-eee (user@128.30.52.30)
  321. # [14:22] * Steven-eee is now known as Steeeven
  322. # [14:23] <yamx> Yam: any possible issues from ARIA?
  323. # [14:24] <yamx> Al: colon and attribute, a browser bug, a lexical issue, be an interest to ARIA.
  324. # [14:24] <yamx> Al: any issues with CURIE syntax.
  325. # [14:25] <yamx> Al: no issue.
  326. # [14:25] <Rich> s/CUIRE/CURIE/
  327. # [14:25] <yamx> Topic: RDFa syntax
  328. # [14:26] <yamx> Al: want to make sure nothing to be talked on RDFa syntax. is that true?
  329. # [14:26] <yamx> Micheal: question. prefix part reference, similar to scheme name. any potential collision? room for clarification?
  330. # [14:27] <yamx> Shane: checking
  331. # [14:27] <yamx> Micheal: technical issue or educational issue?
  332. # [14:28] <oedipus> we should address the PF's response to XHTML2 WG that RDFa didn't suffice for requested predefined role "title" in Role comments
  333. # [14:29] <yamx> Shane: describing clarification about "for-human" and "for-machine". like qname..
  334. # [14:29] <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add a note htat there is a risk that humans might perceive a CURIE as a URI.
  335. # [14:29] * RRSAgent records action 8
  336. # [14:29] <ShaneM> s/htat/that/
  337. # [14:29] * Quits: Steeeven (user@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  338. # [14:30] <yamx> Al: text of URI, point of crack user, cognitive factor, anything confusing people...
  339. # [14:30] * Quits: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  340. # [14:30] * ShaneM notes that CURIEs have EXACTLY the same problem as QNames with respect to humans potentially misinterpreting them.
  341. # [14:30] * oedipus shane, repeat that without the /me
  342. # [14:31] <ShaneM> Note that CURIEs have EXACTLY the same problem as QNames with respect to humans potentially misinterpreting them.
  343. # [14:31] * oedipus much oblidged...
  344. # [14:31] <yamx> Al: RDFa is a way to inject a project as such, accessibility issue is uptake, not design of technology. We have desire for metadata, aligned to practical use.
  345. # [14:31] <yamx> Roland: OK. done.
  346. # [14:32] <yamx> Topic: Access module
  347. # [14:32] <yamx> Al: Access module replaces capability of accesskey in HTML4.
  348. # [14:33] <yamx> Al: one point, came up to argument, action has to be adaptable (personalizable).
  349. # [14:33] <yamx> Al: summary of that argument was display processing, going to element, assistive technology, before authorized action.
  350. # [14:34] <yamx> Al: in the middle of form, ... in that example..
  351. # [14:34] <yamx> Al: other users, with requirements "just do it", not focusing detailed sequence.
  352. # [14:35] <yamx> Roland: binary selection.
  353. # [14:35] <yamx> s/selection/selection by a boolean/
  354. # [14:35] <yamx> Al: Practically, boolean may be OK.
  355. # [14:36] <ShaneM> We currently have language about the key attribute that discusses how agents must be able to override: The character assigned to a key, and its relationship to a role or id attribute, are a suggestion of the author. User agents may provide mechanisms for overriding, disabling, or re-assigning keys. In such user agents, user-specified assignments must take precendence. If no key attribute is specified, the user agent SHOULD assign a key.
  356. # [14:36] <yamx> Al: like IETF, security considerations. We need accessibility considerations. Micheal, you are geneus.
  357. # [14:36] <ShaneM> Similar language should be in the document for the activate attribute.
  358. # [14:37] <yamx> Al: Activate or not may be appropriate.
  359. # [14:38] <yamx> Shane: user can overwrite. Good.
  360. # [14:38] <oedipus> 2 birds with one stone dept. -- that satisfies the UAAG requirement
  361. # [14:38] <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add language to seciton 3.1.1 of xhtml-access to require user agent override of the activate attribute setting
  362. # [14:38] * RRSAgent records action 9
  363. # [14:38] <yamx> s/geneus/genius/
  364. # [14:38] <yamx> Roland: sounds good. some consensus here.
  365. # [14:39] <yamx> Al: this is all, any other issue for moving on.
  366. # [14:39] <oedipus> i think UAAG will be happy with this, too
  367. # [14:39] <yamx> Topic: Role attribute
  368. # [14:39] * oedipus did you say you're rollin' or roland?
  369. # [14:40] <yamx> Roland: second last call, when available, Shane?
  370. # [14:40] <oedipus> FYI: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/19-xhtml-minutes.html#item03
  371. # [14:40] <yamx> Roland: Jan 28 is the most recent for Role attribute.
  372. # [14:40] <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20080128/
  373. # [14:40] <oedipus> contains discussion of Role from yesterday
  374. # [14:41] <yamx> Al: did not understand the conventions...
  375. # [14:41] <yamx> Al: in red? deleted items?
  376. # [14:41] <yamx> Al: other issues definitions of the predefined roles.
  377. # [14:42] * oedipus that's sean's mark for comment on this or it will continue to be ugly-ass orange
  378. # [14:42] <yamx> Roland: available as chameleon, both are available.
  379. # [14:42] <yamx> Al: chameleon, not a practice in namespace..
  380. # [14:42] <yamx> Al: you can.
  381. # [14:42] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@87.24.46.148)
  382. # [14:43] <oedipus> you SHOULD, i believe is the term
  383. # [14:43] <yamx> Roland: could be embedded into their namespaces.
  384. # [14:43] <yamx> Roland: there are three possibilities.
  385. # [14:43] <yamx> Al: understand from the perspectives.
  386. # [14:44] <yamx> Al: SVG has problems..
  387. # [14:44] <yamx> Al: newsML has choices, three choices.
  388. # [14:44] <yamx> Al: attributes does not obtain the namespace of element.
  389. # [14:45] <oedipus> NewsML: http://www.newsml.org/
  390. # [14:45] <MichaelC_VCE> q+ to ask about namespace of attribute value
  391. # [14:45] <yamx> Roland: first discussion, how you do in your namespaces.
  392. # [14:46] <yamx> Al: we don't have anything to talk about, at the moment.
  393. # [14:46] <yamx> Roland: values of role attributes, the second discussion.
  394. # [14:46] <yamx> Al: talk about the semantics of predefined values.
  395. # [14:46] * oedipus is this were we address the PF's response to XHTML2 WG that RDFa didn't suffice for requested predefined role "title" in Role comments
  396. # [14:47] <yamx> Al: Micheal how those values are understood. Al, for application semantics.
  397. # [14:47] <yamx> Roland: semantics, first to cover Al's.
  398. # [14:48] <oedipus> semantics at the "grossest" level
  399. # [14:48] <oedipus> yes that was shane
  400. # [14:48] <yamx> Roland: Section 3. predefined values, starting from banner.
  401. # [14:49] <yamx> Al: processing api binding layer, to me, semantics of the role attributes. need to be understood there.
  402. # [14:49] <yamx> Shane: it is great, but not in role attr spec, but in accessibility spec.
  403. # [14:50] <yamx> Roland: semantic container.
  404. # [14:50] * oedipus it's all semantics...
  405. # [14:50] <yamx> Al: functionally, working.
  406. # [14:51] * oedipus couldn't hear roland
  407. # [14:51] <yamx> Al: synchronized about those approaches.
  408. # [14:51] <yamx> Roland: must be machine processible, one of them should be RDFa. yesterda discussion.
  409. # [14:51] <ShaneM> New version of xhtml-access with requirement for @activate override is up at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/
  410. # [14:52] * oedipus thanks, shane
  411. # [14:52] <yamx> Al: banner. entire front matter of web pages needed.
  412. # [14:52] <Simone> s/yesterda/yesterday
  413. # [14:52] <ShaneM> Note that it is formatted as a FPWG not an ED. I will fix that.
  414. # [14:53] <yamx> Al: basically same idea, but how clearly explain to humans..
  415. # [14:54] <yamx> Micheal: need rewording.
  416. # [14:54] <yamx> Micheal: English problem (British English, American ), some sort of clarifications.
  417. # [14:54] <yamx> Al: designers with span, div, ... we have to talk to those people.
  418. # [14:55] * oedipus like it or not en-us is w3c standard
  419. # [14:55] <yamx> Al: historically, came from Rich.
  420. # [14:55] * Joins: GerrieS (gshults@76.93.132.114)
  421. # [14:55] * oedipus morning gerrie
  422. # [14:56] <GerrieS> Good morning
  423. # [14:56] <yamx> Shane: you can edit anything there. XHTML-WG has no stick to these wordings.
  424. # [14:56] <ShaneM> rewrite the role definitions, please!!!
  425. # [14:56] <yamx> Micheal: we can work tomorrow.
  426. # [14:57] <GerrieS> Skype?
  427. # [14:57] * oedipus i need your skypeID
  428. # [14:57] * Simone GerrieS, what is your skypeid?
  429. # [14:57] * oedipus i will call you
  430. # [14:57] <GerrieS> gshults
  431. # [14:57] <yamx> Al: not much on contentinfo. needs a use case.
  432. # [14:57] * Simone oedipus is the host :)
  433. # [14:58] <yamx> Al: role for collecting meta data.
  434. # [14:58] <ShaneM> Note that the xhtml 2 working group hoped to take role to last call very soon, so if you all could give us updated text this week it would be AWESOME!
  435. # [14:58] <yamx> Al: no strong problem the way handled in contentinfo.
  436. # [14:59] <yamx> Roland: definition.
  437. # [15:00] <yamx> Micheal: confused.
  438. # [15:00] <yamx> Al: context of symbol (dfn in this case).
  439. # [15:01] <ShaneM> Use case of definition might be having a user agent create a glossary via role that I can pick from when reading a document.
  440. # [15:01] <yamx> Al: we don't need role to reproduce dfn..
  441. # [15:01] <oedipus> al, are you talking about <dfn id="wai-ex"><acronym title="Web Accessibility Initiative">WAI</acronym></dfn>
  442. # [15:01] <oedipus> as a reuse method?
  443. # [15:02] <yamx> Al: Michel's point is how we can make future-proof. interesting point.
  444. # [15:02] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#defining
  445. # [15:02] <yamx> Al: host-language specific definition.
  446. # [15:03] <oedipus> (it's on the HTML5 issues list for friday)
  447. # [15:03] <yamx> Roland: regend example.
  448. # [15:03] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#the-dfn
  449. # [15:04] <yamx> Michel: OK about Al's argument.
  450. # [15:05] <yamx> Roland: next one is main.
  451. # [15:06] <yamx> Al: main content may be multiple pages.
  452. # [15:07] <yamx> s/pages/domains/
  453. # [15:07] <yamx> Al: four or five top stories.
  454. # [15:08] <yamx> Al: Action: Al to address grouping main content in one region as much as possible, in best practices.
  455. # [15:08] <yamx> s/Al: Action/Action/
  456. # [15:09] <yamx> Roland: moving on navigation.
  457. # [15:09] <yamx> Al: hot keys, ..
  458. # [15:11] <yamx> Al: focus and fire.
  459. # [15:12] <yamx> Al: browsers provide hotkey to go to navigation, all blocks in somewhere,not any case, unique.
  460. # [15:12] <yamx> Al: any issues with navigation? No.
  461. # [15:12] <yamx> Roland: next, note.
  462. # [15:13] <yamx> Al: they are sections.
  463. # [15:13] <yamx> Al: main thing about note, bidirectional navigation by user agent.
  464. # [15:14] <yamx> Micheal: how you can attach note?
  465. # [15:14] <yamx> Micheal: how about inline note?
  466. # [15:14] <yamx> Al: Hmmm.
  467. # [15:16] <yamx> Shane: i want user agent to suppress the inline note.
  468. # [15:17] <yamx> Al: describing three predefined note configuration to cope with diverse user needs.
  469. # [15:17] <oedipus> GJR: endnote different from footnote -- i would assign them different audio cues
  470. # [15:18] <oedipus> GJR: explanatory versus reference notes
  471. # [15:19] <yamx> Roland: decribing Appendix C to Al.
  472. # [15:19] <yamx> .. Taxonomy part.
  473. # [15:20] <yamx> Al: we are OK with note.
  474. # [15:20] <yamx> Roland: next is search.
  475. # [15:20] <yamx> Roland: you can wordsmith..
  476. # [15:21] <yamx> Al: we can wordsmith, but general idea is agreed.
  477. # [15:21] <yamx> Roland: next is secondary.
  478. # [15:21] <yamx> Al: PF should wordsmith.
  479. # [15:22] <yamx> Al: separate work. It matters how you word.
  480. # [15:22] * MichaelC_VCE notes that DTB has note, sidebar, and annotation http://www.loc.gov/nls/z3986/v100/dtbook110doc.htm#dtbookBlockElementsA
  481. # [15:22] <yamx> Al: norole.
  482. # [15:22] <yamx> Al: no role attribute.
  483. # [15:23] <yamx> Al: PF assignment for seealso.
  484. # [15:23] <yamx> Al: PF will make a status report at the end of this week, about wordsmithing these.
  485. # [15:24] <yamx> Al: PF recognized the Shane's shout about "we are close to last call, give us the updated text this week, then it is AWESOME".
  486. # [15:25] <yamx> Michel: don't understand CURIE , doe not provide prefix.
  487. # [15:26] <ShaneM> Role spec says: If the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default value of http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab# MUST be used.
  488. # [15:27] <yamx> Michel: OK. let me check...
  489. # [15:27] <yamx> s/chel/cheal/
  490. # [15:28] * Diego would we have a coffe break at the end of that session?
  491. # [15:28] <yamx> Micheal: it is not same in HTML. I just want to make sure.
  492. # [15:28] <yamx> s/HTML/HTML5/
  493. # [15:29] * Simone notes that for seealso there are "also" ->http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_seealso
  494. # [15:29] <yamx> Micheal: do we have future harmonization? or differences.
  495. # [15:30] * Simone ...and for "primary" can be interesting -> http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_primaryTopic
  496. # [15:30] <yamx> Michael: three choices, do nothing, to this name space, the third, basically aria role.
  497. # [15:30] <yamx> Al: browsers do no namespace versions.
  498. # [15:31] <yamx> Al: we decided to put up with them.
  499. # [15:32] <yamx> Micheal: HTML, ARIA, we cannot use both? they will have the questions..
  500. # [15:32] <ShaneM> I am certain you will get last call objections to this, fwiw.
  501. # [15:32] <yamx> Micheal: it could kill our last call...
  502. # [15:33] <ShaneM> I would not object to having the aria role values included in the vocab# vocabulary space
  503. # [15:35] <yamx> Micheal: this is the name space with XHTML, not html/1999.
  504. # [15:35] <yamx> Micheal: it is completely separate. so we can deal with it. Not the issue with HTML5.
  505. # [15:36] <yamx> Shane: it is vacab space.
  506. # [15:36] <yamx> s/space/name space/
  507. # [15:36] <yamx> Roland: they defined in role attribute spec are usable without any prefix.
  508. # [15:39] <yamx> Roland: our list of predefined can be longer, in response to Michel.
  509. # [15:39] <yamx> s/chel/cheal/
  510. # [15:39] <yamx> Shane: we can dereference by URL.
  511. # [15:40] <yamx> Shane: we start populating there.
  512. # [15:41] <yamx> Al: agreement in princeple, same way, because developing external doc is. Shane and Micheal are contact points.
  513. # [15:41] <yamx> Micheal: OK, I am happy.
  514. # [15:42] <MichaelC_VCE> ack me
  515. # [15:42] <yamx> Al: joint meeting is over.
  516. # [15:42] <yamx> Roland: I would like to check.
  517. # [15:42] <yamx> Yam: I think all are covered.
  518. # [15:42] <yamx> Alessio: OK.
  519. # [15:42] <yamx> Simone: OK.
  520. # [15:43] <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
  521. # [15:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
  522. # [15:43] <yamx> (joint meeting adjourned.)
  523. # [15:44] <Roland_> break now, reconvene in 20mins in separate groups
  524. # [15:45] <oedipus> simone, do you want to resume in 20 minutes?
  525. # [15:47] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  526. # [15:48] * Quits: Al (alfredsgil@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  527. # [15:49] * oedipus i wonder if i should play some "hold" music...
  528. # [15:49] <ShaneM> I suggest Tesla - wake me up
  529. # [15:50] * Quits: Diego (Diego@62.13.172.78) (Ping timeout)
  530. # [15:50] <oedipus> either that or anything by the ramones....
  531. # [15:52] * Quits: Rich (schwer@87.15.243.31) (Ping timeout)
  532. # [16:03] <oedipus> FYI: http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Skip "skippable" structures
  533. # [16:04] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@87.24.46.148)
  534. # [16:05] * Quits: Dimitar_Denev (811aa406@128.30.52.23) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  535. # [16:05] <oedipus> DAISY defines 2 types of notes - "noterefS" and "annorefS" http://www.daisy.org/z3986/2005/Z3986-2005.html#Notes
  536. # [16:08] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  537. # [16:08] * zcorpan sorry to be late to the party
  538. # [16:09] * oedipus coffee break should be ending soon...
  539. # [16:09] <oedipus> zcorpan, http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-irc for the joint session
  540. # [16:10] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html
  541. # [16:14] * Quits: Al (alfredsgil@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  542. # [16:15] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@87.24.46.148)
  543. # [16:17] * Parts: Al (alfredsgil@87.24.46.148) (Leaving)
  544. # [16:18] * oedipus shane, gerrie and i are still on skype
  545. # [16:18] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148)
  546. # [16:19] <oedipus> sounds as if simone's machine is in the PF room
  547. # [16:20] * GerrieS What's PF?
  548. # [16:20] * ShaneM Protocols and Formats ?
  549. # [16:20] <myakura> protocols and formats?
  550. # [16:20] * oedipus protocols & formats working group -- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF
  551. # [16:21] <oedipus> tasked with reviewing all specs that are accepted by w3c for accessibility issues/concerns
  552. # [16:21] <oedipus> also developing ARIA (http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/)
  553. # [16:21] * Joins: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30)
  554. # [16:21] <GerrieS> The joint meeting was held on their turf, then?
  555. # [16:22] <oedipus> i'm not quite sure -- i heard a bunch of PF voices, but they may be moving
  556. # [16:22] * Quits: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  557. # [16:22] * GerrieS waves to Steven
  558. # [16:22] <oedipus> steven, i'm still carrying gerrie and shane on skype -- do you want me to try you again?
  559. # [16:22] <Steven> yes please
  560. # [16:23] <Steven> sounds like you are in a zoo
  561. # [16:24] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
  562. # [16:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
  563. # [16:24] <oedipus> it's the sound of 2 WGs breaking up
  564. # [16:24] <Steven> is it all over then?
  565. # [16:24] <GerrieS> Isn't that hard to do? :-)
  566. # [16:24] <Steven> lol
  567. # [16:25] <oedipus> i'm not sure where simone is...
  568. # [16:25] <oedipus> we were going to reconvene separately after the afternoon break
  569. # [16:28] * Joins: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148)
  570. # [16:28] <Roland_> restarting . . .
  571. # [16:28] <yamx> (we are back from photo-taking)
  572. # [16:28] * Steven borrowed a ethernet over mains card from the hotel
  573. # [16:29] * Joins: Diego (Diego@62.13.172.78)
  574. # [16:29] <yamx> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven.
  575. # [16:29] <Steven> lost sound
  576. # [16:29] <oedipus> that's because simone dropped -- i'll call her
  577. # [16:29] <yamx> s/Steven/Steven, Shane/
  578. # [16:30] <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
  579. # [16:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
  580. # [16:30] <yamx> s/Shane/Shane, Gregory./
  581. # [16:30] * ShaneM has a local crisis. brb
  582. # [16:30] * Simone sorry skype problem, I'm recalling
  583. # [16:31] * Parts: MichaelC_VCE (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  584. # [16:31] * ShaneM nevermind
  585. # [16:31] <Steven> gregory, I hear your screen reader
  586. # [16:31] <Steven> I assume it's yours
  587. # [16:31] <oedipus> i just muted -- sorry
  588. # [16:31] <oedipus> simone, you need to add gerrie now that you're host
  589. # [16:32] <Simone> ok
  590. # [16:32] <oedipus> thanks we're all back on, i think
  591. # [16:33] * Simone all ok from skype?
  592. # [16:33] * Steven yes
  593. # [16:33] * oedipus yes
  594. # [16:33] * Simone :)
  595. # [16:33] * oedipus gerrie?
  596. # [16:33] * GerrieS yes
  597. # [16:33] <Roland_> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven, Shane, Gregory
  598. # [16:34] <Roland_> Present: Roland, Alessio, Simone, Yam, Steven, Shane, Gregory, Gerrie
  599. # [16:34] * Joins: yamx0 (sample@87.24.46.148)
  600. # [16:34] <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
  601. # [16:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
  602. # [16:34] * Quits: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  603. # [16:34] <yamx0> Topic: roadmap
  604. # [16:35] <oedipus> no, we can hear you, simone
  605. # [16:35] <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/
  606. # [16:36] * Simone ok
  607. # [16:37] <Steven> Yes
  608. # [16:37] <Steven> the TAG
  609. # [16:37] <yamx0> Shane: someone raised XHTML media type?
  610. # [16:37] <Steven> hmm
  611. # [16:37] <Steven> let me try and remember
  612. # [16:37] <oedipus> it might have been on their blog
  613. # [16:37] <oedipus> or wiki
  614. # [16:37] <Steven> Just a moment, looking
  615. # [16:39] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments#UsingRDFa
  616. # [16:39] <Steven> Note: at this time, drafts of the [RDFa] specification are available, but the media-type registration for HTML itself has not been updated to reflect RDFa. As described in TAG Finding [AuthoritativeMetadata], conventions like RDFa are normative only if provided for in the applicable specification for the media-type in which they are used. Thus, for RDFa to be fully integrated with 2 The Web's Standard Retrieval Algorithm, the HTML and/or XHTML media-type regist
  617. # [16:39] <Steven> I don't agree either
  618. # [16:40] <Steven> Yes, I agree Shane
  619. # [16:40] <Steven> I disagree with this comment fromthe TAG
  620. # [16:40] <Steven> This doc (selfdescribingdocs) is currently open for comments
  621. # [16:40] <Steven> so we should send in an official comment from the group
  622. # [16:41] <Steven> I;m willing to word it
  623. # [16:41] <Steven> I'll send a draft to the group
  624. # [16:41] <yamx0> ACTION: Steven to reply to TAG that we disagree.
  625. # [16:41] * RRSAgent records action 10
  626. # [16:41] <yamx0> Roland: Shane, any other RDFa issues?
  627. # [16:41] <yamx0> Shane: no.
  628. # [16:41] * Quits: yamx0 (sample@87.24.46.148) (Quit: CHOCOA)
  629. # [16:42] * Joins: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148)
  630. # [16:42] <yamx> Roland: let's check roadmap and call the f2f week over.
  631. # [16:42] * GerrieS lost SKype
  632. # [16:42] <yamx> Roland: minor comments from WAI today.
  633. # [16:43] <yamx> Roland: do they prevent us from going to last call?
  634. # [16:43] <Steven> +1
  635. # [16:43] <yamx> Shane: completing access module. Can go to last call any time you want.
  636. # [16:43] <oedipus> +1 with edits from today
  637. # [16:43] <ShaneM> Edits from today are http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080220/
  638. # [16:44] <Roland_> can we resolve to go to Last Call for ACCESS Module?
  639. # [16:44] <ShaneM> so I think we are ready to go. +1 from me.
  640. # [16:44] <yamx> Roland: with no objections, we go forward to access module last call.
  641. # [16:44] <alessio> +1
  642. # [16:44] <yamx> RESOLUTION: we agreed to go access module last call.
  643. # [16:46] <yamx> Roland: next one is xFrame.
  644. # [16:46] <yamx> Alessio: starting some tests, embedding XHTML2 pages..
  645. # [16:46] <yamx> Roland: we cannot go last call Feb 2008 for xFrames, apprarently.. quite a lot things to cover.
  646. # [16:46] <yamx> Roland: how about April 2008?
  647. # [16:47] <yamx> Roland: how about June, we can do something early if we are comfortable.
  648. # [16:47] <yamx> Yam: it is too optimistic that we can make last call without f2f.
  649. # [16:47] <ShaneM> did we get committment from WAI fols for new Role text this week?
  650. # [16:48] <yamx> Roland: we agreed to move the last call xFrames to June 2008. No need for resolution to change the date.
  651. # [16:48] <yamx> Roland: what the date for last call XML Events 2, Shane?
  652. # [16:48] <yamx> Shane: hopefully in weeks.
  653. # [16:49] <yamx> Roland: XML Event 2 schedule as it is.
  654. # [16:49] <oedipus> shane, i began to alert the masses (those most interested in Role in PFWG)
  655. # [16:49] <yamx> Roland: XHTML2, just "2008". not yet to describe any more detailed date.
  656. # [16:50] <yamx> Roland: XHTML Basic 1.1. We are waiting for transition request... Not much use about speculation of exact date.
  657. # [16:50] <yamx> Roland: RDFa syntax, last call for Feb 2008?
  658. # [16:50] <yamx> Shane: we have a last call for 4 weeks.
  659. # [16:51] <yamx> Roland: last call date is tomorrow. 2 month behind from Dec 2007.
  660. # [16:51] <ShaneM> Note that RDFa does NOT have a schema implementation in it. I think that is editorial but it would be really nice oif we could get M12N done....
  661. # [16:51] <yamx> Roland: reasonable to delay all schedule for two months?
  662. # [16:52] <yamx> Shane: fine with 2 months shift.
  663. # [16:52] <yamx> Roland: how about Primer?
  664. # [16:52] <yamx> Shane: simplify more with comments.
  665. # [16:53] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  666. # [16:53] * oedipus i was so excited, i sent out the request for role verbiage to the PF list twice rapidly
  667. # [16:53] * Quits: Diego (Diego@62.13.172.78) (Ping timeout)
  668. # [16:53] <ShaneM> LOL
  669. # [16:54] <yamx> Roland: Primer is not normative, no last call. we ignore them.
  670. # [16:54] <yamx> Roland: M12N.
  671. # [16:54] <yamx> Roland: we are optimistic?
  672. # [16:54] <Steven> sorry I was muted
  673. # [16:54] <Steven> I think we can be moderately optimistic
  674. # [16:55] <yamx> Roland: M12N is in transition request, we will just see what will happen to them.
  675. # [16:55] * oedipus http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0186.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0185.html
  676. # [16:55] <Steven> I got a comment from Steve Bratt noting some problems with the spec that have now been fixed
  677. # [16:55] <yamx> Roland: role, when ready for 2nd last call, Shane?
  678. # [16:55] <Steven> I think we can have a transition call soon
  679. # [16:56] <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to ensure all Role attribute module changes are complete by 28 February - including new text from WAI folks.
  680. # [16:56] * RRSAgent records action 11
  681. # [16:56] <yamx> Roland: month of March, should be OK.
  682. # [16:57] <yamx> Roland: CURIE syntax.
  683. # [16:57] <yamx> Roland: just entering last call.
  684. # [16:58] <yamx> Roland: we have to see what we will receive during last call. Then, we can decide on the future of CURIE.
  685. # [16:58] <yamx> Roland: no update on the dates.
  686. # [16:58] <yamx> Roland: the request is processed, we have to fix, but now it is just to be processed.
  687. # [16:58] <yamx> Roland: done on roadmap.
  688. # [16:59] <yamx> Topic: f2f meeting plan.
  689. # [16:59] * Steven dependent on minutes to follow what is going on; audio is very noisy
  690. # [16:59] <yamx> Roland: CANN with TPAC in october.
  691. # [16:59] <Steven> Cannes
  692. # [16:59] <yamx> s/CANN/Cannes/
  693. # [16:59] * Simone connection problem here
  694. # [16:59] <yamx> Yam: I cannot join TPAC with overlapped OMA. Regrets.
  695. # [17:00] <Steven> Need a location still for June (is it?)
  696. # [17:00] <yamx> Roland: next f2f , June 16-18, current plannning, in U.S.A.
  697. # [17:00] <oedipus> steven, weren't you going to ask google if they could host us in NYC?
  698. # [17:00] <yamx> Roland: we have to narrow down a little. options...
  699. # [17:00] <ShaneM> I could also host in Minneapolis
  700. # [17:01] <Steven> I vote for Shanesville
  701. # [17:01] <yamx> Roland: New York, suggested, but cannot verify.
  702. # [17:01] <oedipus> if you're going to go to minneapolis, june is the right time
  703. # [17:01] <Steven> what were the dates again?
  704. # [17:01] <yamx> JUne 16-18.
  705. # [17:01] <Steven> There is an IBM in NY
  706. # [17:01] <Steven> NY State
  707. # [17:01] <yamx> s/JU/Ju
  708. # [17:01] <yamx> s/JU/Ju/
  709. # [17:02] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148)
  710. # [17:02] <Steven> I like Shane's thinking :-)
  711. # [17:02] <yamx> (we talked about Mon-Wed, or Tue-Thu).
  712. # [17:02] <yamx> Shane: no problem for hosting.
  713. # [17:02] <Steven> Cool
  714. # [17:03] <oedipus> steven, the IBM watson research center in hawthorne, new york?
  715. # [17:03] <Steven> yes
  716. # [17:03] <ShaneM> Minneapolis - probably downtown somewhere. not out where I am. Its dead out here.
  717. # [17:03] <yamx> Roland: could you just warn where your location is, Shane?
  718. # [17:03] <Steven> We have contacts there
  719. # [17:03] <oedipus> http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml
  720. # [17:04] <yamx> Shane: June 17-19, proposing.
  721. # [17:04] <ShaneM> There are non stops to minneapolis from london, amsterdam, and tokyo
  722. # [17:04] <Steven> well, perfect then
  723. # [17:04] <yamx> Really?
  724. # [17:04] <yamx> to Tokyo?
  725. # [17:05] <yamx> Are you sure?
  726. # [17:05] <yamx> every day in a week?
  727. # [17:05] <yamx> Roland: IBM location for alternative?
  728. # [17:05] <oedipus> http://www.watson.ibm.com/general_info_haw.shtml
  729. # [17:06] <Steven> Yes, Northwest
  730. # [17:07] <ShaneM> I will pick a venue and set up hotel block etc in the next weeks.
  731. # [17:07] <oedipus> yam, northwest is http://www.nwa.com/
  732. # [17:07] <yamx> Roland: everyone happy with Minneapolis for June 17-19(Tue-Thu)?
  733. # [17:07] * oedipus just noticed NWA - giggle
  734. # [17:07] <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to set up meeting location for June 17 - 19.
  735. # [17:07] * RRSAgent records action 12
  736. # [17:08] <oedipus> GJR thinks he might actually manage to drag his carcass to minneapolis in june
  737. # [17:08] <Steven> woh!
  738. # [17:08] <yamx> Roland: any other business?
  739. # [17:08] <oedipus> hide the women, children and farm animals
  740. # [17:09] <yamx> Topic: AOB(Any other business)
  741. # [17:09] <Steven> Wiki content?
  742. # [17:09] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  743. # [17:09] <oedipus> good point, steven - what are the guidelines/rules?
  744. # [17:09] <Steven> Well, up to us
  745. # [17:09] <ShaneM> there's a wiki? is it linked to the MarkUp page?
  746. # [17:09] <Steven> There are some basic pages we need to create
  747. # [17:09] <yamx> Roland: Right!
  748. # [17:09] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148)
  749. # [17:09] <Steven> like About:
  750. # [17:09] <Steven> and the front page
  751. # [17:10] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Main_Page
  752. # [17:10] <yamx> Roland: entire content of Wiki is f2f Venice.
  753. # [17:10] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/XHTML2:About
  754. # [17:10] <yamx> Roland: what other content? roadmap is in W3C.
  755. # [17:11] <yamx> Roland: Steven, do you have the image of what should we have?
  756. # [17:11] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Current_events
  757. # [17:11] <Steven> for news about state of docs
  758. # [17:11] <Steven> maybe
  759. # [17:12] <yamx> (Roland has some network problems)
  760. # [17:12] <Steven> join the club
  761. # [17:12] * Steven hears constant techno-musci in the background
  762. # [17:12] * oedipus after effect of last night?
  763. # [17:13] * Steven ... like a million electronic penguins
  764. # [17:13] <yamx> Roland: we have to think about Wiki communications.
  765. # [17:14] * oedipus sounds like white noise, here, steven, although maybe it's like the mosquito thingamabob
  766. # [17:14] <yamx> ACTION: Roland to include this Wiki issue in the upcoming teleconf agenda.
  767. # [17:14] * RRSAgent records action 13
  768. # [17:14] <yamx> Roland: blog?
  769. # [17:14] <yamx> Roland: it is part of communications.
  770. # [17:15] <oedipus> blogs spark as much heat as light...
  771. # [17:16] <yamx> Roland: any additional business?
  772. # [17:16] <ShaneM> I could use some time back at my day job.
  773. # [17:16] <yamx> Roland: any additional thoughts beyond communications (Wiki, blog)?
  774. # [17:16] <oedipus> i'll follow up with the PF people on getting verbiage on Role for you by the weekend, shane
  775. # [17:16] <ShaneM> dont tease me
  776. # [17:16] <oedipus> half of expertise is tease...
  777. # [17:17] <ShaneM> only two industries call their customers users.....
  778. # [17:17] * GerrieS Phonetically it's only a third
  779. # [17:17] <ShaneM> and have you ever noticed how the word institution is only used for things like asylums AND marriage? hmmm...
  780. # [17:17] * oedipus good point, gerrie - i was quoting harry shearer, but now that you mention it...
  781. # [17:18] <yamx> Alessio: start to encourge XHTML2 implementaions.
  782. # [17:18] * oedipus well, historically, there's also the "peculiar institution"
  783. # [17:18] <yamx> s/start/descriging starting/
  784. # [17:18] <ShaneM> dont we need to know what XHTML 2 is first?
  785. # [17:18] <yamx> Roland: no one have anything additional.
  786. # [17:18] <oedipus> no thanks for revisiting event yesterday
  787. # [17:18] <Steven> no
  788. # [17:18] <yamx> s/no one/no one in this room/
  789. # [17:19] <Steven> dinner?
  790. # [17:19] <oedipus> keep your foot elevated, steven!
  791. # [17:19] <ShaneM> Hell of a meeting folks!
  792. # [17:19] <yamx> Roland: finished. (after end, we will talk about dinner.)
  793. # [17:20] * ShaneM is signing off - ttyl
  794. # [17:20] <GerrieS> I'll be late for dinner!
  795. # [17:20] * oedipus goodnight, gracie
  796. # [17:20] <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
  797. # [17:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
  798. # [17:20] <yamx> (Done for this week.)
  799. # [17:20] <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
  800. # [17:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/20-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
  801. # [17:20] <Steven> Gracie left already
  802. # [17:21] * Quits: yamx (sample@87.24.46.148) (Quit: CHOCOA)
  803. # [17:21] <Steven> what's the deal with dinner?
  804. # [17:21] * Quits: myakura (myakura@123.224.247.98) (Quit: Leaving...)
  805. # [17:21] <alessio> bye all :)
  806. # [17:21] * Quits: alessio (acartocci@87.24.46.148) (Quit: alessio)
  807. # [17:21] <Steven> bye
  808. # [17:21] <oedipus> thanks to all who scribed -- especially yam -- great job; thanks, alessio, and thanks for the audio, simone!
  809. # [17:21] <Simone> Steven, I hope we back to hotel and then find a place near it :)
  810. # [17:21] <Steven> fab!
  811. # [17:21] * Simone :)
  812. # [17:21] <Steven> Grazie Simone
  813. # [17:22] <Simone> :)
  814. # [17:22] * Parts: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.138)
  815. # [17:23] * Parts: GerrieS (gshults@76.93.132.114)
  816. # [17:24] * Parts: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13)
  817. # [17:27] * Quits: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  818. # [17:28] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@87.24.46.148) (Connection reset by peer)
  819. # [17:29] * Joins: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148)
  820. # [17:30] * Parts: Roland_ (Roland@87.24.46.148)
  821. # [17:32] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  822. # [17:36] * Quits: Simone (simone@87.24.46.148) (Ping timeout)
  823. # [17:45] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  824. # [17:51] * Joins: Lachy_ (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  825. # [17:51] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Connection reset by peer)
  826. # [18:03] * Quits: Lachy_ (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Quit: Leaving)
  827. # [18:04] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  828. # [19:48] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13)
  829. # [19:50] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  830. # [20:48] * Quits: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  831. # [21:00] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  832. # [21:54] * Quits: markbirbeck (markbirbec@78.147.12.28) (Quit: markbirbeck)
  833. # [22:01] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  834. # [22:01] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  835. # [22:04] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  836. # [22:26] * Parts: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13)
  837. # [23:06] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124)
  838. # [23:20] * Joins: sbuluf (qkwocs@200.49.132.102)
  839. # Session Close: Thu Feb 21 00:00:01 2008

The end :)