/irc-logs / w3c / #xhtml / 2008-03-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 26 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #xhtml
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  25. # [14:41] * Joins: Roland (Roland@88.108.108.66)
  26. # [14:42] <Roland> just seen a note saying that W3C telecon system is out of order
  27. # [14:42] <Roland> I have a telecon system we can use if the W3C one is still broken
  28. # [14:43] <Roland> Zakim bridge seems to be working
  29. # [14:44] * Joins: rmerric (586c6c42@128.30.52.43)
  30. # [14:44] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  31. # [14:45] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  32. # [14:45] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-irc
  33. # [14:45] <rmerric> topic http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0056.html
  34. # [14:45] * rmerric changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0056.html'
  35. # [14:46] <Roland> Zakim, this will be XHTML2
  36. # [14:46] <Zakim> ok, Roland, I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM already started
  37. # [14:46] <Roland> Zakim, list
  38. # [14:46] <Zakim> I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, WAI_ERTWG()9:30AM active
  39. # [14:46] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time is I18N_TS()9:00AM
  40. # [14:47] * Quits: rmerric (586c6c42@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  41. # [14:47] <Roland> Zakim, who is here
  42. # [14:47] <Zakim> Roland, you need to end that query with '?'
  43. # [14:48] <Roland> Zakim, who is here?
  44. # [14:48] <Zakim> On the phone I see +0138687aaaa
  45. # [14:48] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Lachy, ShaneM_, krijn
  46. # [14:48] * Quits: ShaneM_ (ShaneM@71.220.86.124) (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)
  47. # [14:48] <Roland> Zakim, aaaa is Roland
  48. # [14:48] <Zakim> +Roland; got it
  49. # [14:48] <Roland> Zakim, who is here?
  50. # [14:48] <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland
  51. # [14:48] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Lachy, krijn
  52. # [14:48] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124)
  53. # [14:49] <ShaneM> note that I will be a few minutes late - child conflict this AM
  54. # [14:49] * Joins: markbirbeck (markbirbec@89.240.218.112)
  55. # [14:49] * Joins: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30)
  56. # [14:50] <Steven> zakim, who is here?
  57. # [14:50] <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland
  58. # [14:50] <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, markbirbeck, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Lachy, krijn
  59. # [14:50] <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
  60. # [14:50] <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
  61. # [14:50] <Roland> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
  62. # [14:50] <Zakim> +Steven
  63. # [14:50] <Roland> Chair: Roland
  64. # [14:50] <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0056.html
  65. # [14:51] <Steven> Regrets: Tina, Yam
  66. # [14:52] <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
  67. # [14:52] <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
  68. # [14:52] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  69. # [14:52] <Zakim> + +0208761aabb
  70. # [14:52] <markbirbeck> zakim i am aabb
  71. # [14:52] <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aabb
  72. # [14:52] <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
  73. # [14:53] * oedipus shane will be delayed due to parental responsibilities
  74. # [14:54] <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-xhtml-minutes Previous
  75. # [14:56] <oedipus> regrets+ Alessio
  76. # [14:56] * oedipus http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0064.html
  77. # [15:00] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  78. # [15:00] <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
  79. # [15:00] * Steven thanks Gregory
  80. # [15:00] <oedipus> TOPIC: CSS Namespace
  81. # [15:00] <oedipus> SP: we asked for 3 things: drop it or deprecate it or point it out in the spec that this is a change in CSS and this is how you avoid problems;
  82. # [15:01] <oedipus> SP: said will ignore comments -- replied to that: asked if refusing to merely pointing out in spec ok
  83. # [15:01] <oedipus> SP: accept disapproval or get an answer, but if no, have to document before CR
  84. # [15:02] <oedipus> SP: this has a 1 week heartbeat, so if they accept to point out in spc, we are ok; need to deciide what to do if don't accept any part of our comments?
  85. # [15:02] <oedipus> SP: object or accept the fact they rejected our comments/suggestion
  86. # [15:03] <oedipus> SP: don't think much to ask to ask them at the minimum to point out that this is a change in CSS; if don't should say not sufficient, as it is a change in CSS
  87. # [15:03] <oedipus> RM: inclined to agree
  88. # [15:03] <oedipus> SP: not much to ask -- don't have to change implementations -- is WG ok with us saying that the least we want them to do is point it out in spec?
  89. # [15:04] <oedipus> RESOLVED: CSS NS must at least point out that there is change in CSS
  90. # [15:04] <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML M12n
  91. # [15:05] <oedipus> SP: waiting on Shane to make a new iteration of draft; he's done that, so i'm emailing steve bratt and going throough points and pointing to new spec and asking if ok with transition
  92. # [15:05] <oedipus> RM: just going through process
  93. # [15:05] <oedipus> ACTION: StevenP - point SteveB to new wording in M12n
  94. # [15:05] * RRSAgent records action 1
  95. # [15:05] <oedipus> SP: "would you have a look at the new/latest version of the report"
  96. # [15:05] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-basic-11-implementation.html
  97. # [15:06] <oedipus> SP: at bottom, there is a pointer to Yam's response and test report
  98. # [15:06] <oedipus> [please stand by -- we are temporarily experiencing technical difficulties]
  99. # [15:07] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/a-w3c-inputmode-test-report071130.pdf
  100. # [15:07] <oedipus> SP: need to correct test report with above URI
  101. # [15:08] <oedipus> SP: [fixed implementation report - can now get PDF report from draft]
  102. # [15:08] <oedipus> MB: input mode?
  103. # [15:09] <oedipus> SP: since rest has been implemented, only new item is input mode -- we had exchange with Steve Bratt to see if ok to have single implementation because is optional feature, and he said that was ok; have to organize another transition call with SteveB
  104. # [15:09] <oedipus> RM: see if he's happy then schedule LC
  105. # [15:09] <oedipus> SP: will take us to CR
  106. # [15:10] <oedipus> ACTION SP: ensure SteveB ok with single implementation and get transition in progress
  107. # [15:10] * RRSAgent records action 2
  108. # [15:10] * oedipus was that specific enough?
  109. # [15:10] <oedipus> TOPIC: Mime Type
  110. # [15:11] <oedipus> SP: Karl seems to think anything not absolutely valid and without application/xml mime-type is NOT xhtml -- that's only a single person's opinion
  111. # [15:11] <oedipus> SP: DanC agrees with us but doesn't see the problem
  112. # [15:12] <oedipus> SP: will discuss at this week's HTC call -- request discussion now or simply move ahead
  113. # [15:12] <oedipus> RM: prepare materials to be published as part of the mime-types first draft; explain what we have done, what has changed, and what is purpose, can then bring up at HTC
  114. # [15:13] <oedipus> SP: like fact that there are a lot of major web sites delivering xhtml as text/html -- proves can be done and that it works without doing any harm
  115. # [15:14] <oedipus> RM: seen doctype "HTML Core" but use closing slashes -- real mixture both ways
  116. # [15:14] <oedipus> SP: drop line to webmaster to change doctype
  117. # [15:14] <oedipus> GJR: FYI: the "official" format of Open Accessibility (http://a11y.org) specs is XHTML 1.0 Strict
  118. # [15:14] <oedipus> SP: Shane preparing new draft to take to HTC
  119. # [15:15] <oedipus> RM: don't foresee any problem -- already allowed
  120. # [15:15] <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIE Transition
  121. # [15:15] <oedipus> RM: everything ready to go, but we don't have shane on call -- suggestions as to topics while we wait
  122. # [15:16] <oedipus> SP: could briefly talk about TAG's opinion about mime-type when using RDFa
  123. # [15:16] <oedipus> RM: pointer?
  124. # [15:16] <oedipus> SP: comes under RDFa syntax; have action to let TAG know we disagree -- was drafting reply and realized we hadn't spoken with RDFa group, so i raised it at last week's meeting
  125. # [15:16] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html
  126. # [15:16] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html#item02
  127. # [15:17] <oedipus> SP: self-describing web (item 2)
  128. # [15:18] <oedipus> SP: BenA (chair of Task Force) asked if TAG wrong; Ralph abstained no one else agreeed; RDFa group almost unanimously agree with us that media type doesn't need to be updated to use RDFa data in HTML
  129. # [15:18] <oedipus> RM: namespace?
  130. # [15:18] <Zakim> +McCarron
  131. # [15:18] <oedipus> SP: don't understand TAG point at all or what is foundation of belief -- hard to argue against updating media type
  132. # [15:19] <oedipus> MB: TAG logic is that somebody should not be held accountable for statements made unless accountability indicator
  133. # [15:19] <oedipus> SM: proposed wording towards end of last call
  134. # [15:19] <oedipus> SP: norm walsh proposed wording or you (ShaneM) proposed wording
  135. # [15:20] <oedipus> MB: NormW raised issues, ShaneM replied, and everything was ok -- Norm's was most vocal objection, and we have cleared it
  136. # [15:20] <oedipus> SP: pointer?
  137. # [15:20] <oedipus> SM: has an issue number in tracker (not at PC)
  138. # [15:21] <oedipus> SM: suggested wording something like "conforming parsers MUST extract triples if present; authors who want to use triples should use proper methods" or words to that effect
  139. # [15:21] <oedipus> RM: where can we find the exchange
  140. # [15:21] <oedipus> SM: in the RDFa task force log somewhere
  141. # [15:21] <oedipus> SP: NormW's emails all about missing @profile in test case
  142. # [15:22] <oedipus> SM: origin of issue; DanC asked why test cases didn't all have @profile and then others asked why isn't that required
  143. # [15:22] <oedipus> SP: quotes from NormW -- (pointer?)
  144. # [15:23] <oedipus> SM: interesting that NW thinks we are changing the meaning of HTML; so does TBL -- don't think we have done that at all
  145. # [15:23] <oedipus> SP: me neither
  146. # [15:23] <oedipus> GJR: nor me
  147. # [15:23] <oedipus> SP: next steps?
  148. # [15:24] <oedipus> SP: if this is all result of a LC comment which has been disposed and the commentor has stated publically can live with WG's response, can we move forward -- TAG document only a WD, so can wait until before LC to comment upon that
  149. # [15:24] <oedipus> SP: new doctype
  150. # [15:25] <oedipus> SM: not new media type, but new doctype
  151. # [15:25] <oedipus> RM: but have introduced new doctype for this
  152. # [15:25] <oedipus> SP: want one to be able to ID documents that have RDFa in it; then TBL says doctypes are obsolete and advises us to remove DTD...
  153. # [15:26] <oedipus> SP: but, having said that, have "version" attribute in XHTML -- is an announcement mechanism, so should point that out to TAG
  154. # [15:26] <oedipus> SP: have we finalized format of "version" attribute -- struck me that one possible format is identify used in DOCTYPE --
  155. # [15:26] <oedipus> SM: exactly what is in there now
  156. # [15:26] <oedipus> SM: inconsistent with XHTML 1.0 and 1.1 and Basic
  157. # [15:27] <oedipus> SM: use longer formal public identifier
  158. # [15:27] <oedipus> SM: never investigated this
  159. # [15:28] <oedipus> SP: issues about doctype -- doctype causes current browsers use DTD to switch to standards mode; nowadays have to do that to be in standards mode
  160. # [15:28] <Zakim> -McCarron
  161. # [15:28] <oedipus> SP: second if want character entities, HAVE to use doctypes -- if can't solve those issues, doctypes going to be around for a long time to come
  162. # [15:28] <Zakim> + +1.763.767.aacc
  163. # [15:28] <oedipus> RM: that's exactly what problem is
  164. # [15:28] <ShaneM> zakim, aacc is ShaneM
  165. # [15:28] <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
  166. # [15:29] <oedipus> SP: TBL recently started talking down doctypes and i'm not sure why or why he cares
  167. # [15:29] <oedipus> RM: not playing down doctypes per se, but stating no need for doctype
  168. # [15:29] <oedipus> SP: shouldn't be a "must"
  169. # [15:29] <oedipus> RM: just said "remove doctypes" from our specs, not the world
  170. # [15:29] <oedipus> SM: i thought he said remove DTD
  171. # [15:30] <oedipus> RM: what's the diff?
  172. # [15:30] <oedipus> SM: DTD schema declaration
  173. # [15:30] <oedipus> RM: remove doctype requirement, not forcing loading of DTD -- if want to validate, need to keep doctype
  174. # [15:30] * oedipus attribution of above ok?
  175. # [15:31] <oedipus> SM: reads from TBL -- besides, don't have "must" but "should"
  176. # [15:31] <oedipus> RM: what ascpect of that do you disagree with -- insist on DTDs forever?
  177. # [15:31] <oedipus> SM: M12n 1.1 has to have a DTD -- no other implementation technique; second need DTD to validate
  178. # [15:31] <oedipus> SP: doesn't hurt anyone
  179. # [15:32] <oedipus> SM: if want XHTML+RDFa to work in current browsers have to have announcement mechanism browsers understand, and that is doctype
  180. # [15:32] <oedipus> RM: Shane saying we do need announcement mechanism
  181. # [15:33] <oedipus> SM: for it to work in existing browsers
  182. # [15:33] <oedipus> RM: how does that make a difference?
  183. # [15:33] <oedipus> SP: doctype declaration mark is what browsers use to switch into standards mode
  184. # [15:33] <oedipus> SM: want XHTML document to render properly
  185. # [15:34] <oedipus> RM: standards mode about processing, not about processing xhtml
  186. # [15:34] <oedipus> SM: consistent rendering comes from standards mode
  187. # [15:34] <oedipus> RM: what has to do with RDFa?
  188. # [15:35] <oedipus> SM: nothing -- require for consistency amongst the family -- has nothing to do with RDFa, but XHTML
  189. # [15:35] <oedipus> RM: don't require in RDFa
  190. # [15:35] <oedipus> SM: wg told me to make it a "should" a few months ago
  191. # [15:35] <oedipus> RM: trying to understand what you think we need and why TBL doesn't understand what we need
  192. # [15:36] <oedipus> SP: TBL wants markup that states "this document has RDFa in it" -- DTD not wanted because "old fashioned" -- our response is DTD not required, but is quite useful (for validation, for example) -- does no harm can leave out or include -- also method currently used as marker to declare RDFa
  193. # [15:37] <oedipus> SP: if took away would have to invent another markup
  194. # [15:37] <oedipus> SM: have "version" atttribute for that
  195. # [15:38] <oedipus> SM: all that aside, issue of XHTML family docs and behavior when delivered as text/html -- another thread; note suggests that way to ensure document works consistently is to use DTD, follow appendix c (moving to doctype portion), -- if do that, should behave properly and render properly across UAs
  196. # [15:39] <oedipus> SP: do we need to do anything with TAG right now -- this discussion has gone over to RDFa task force, and turned up there as LC comments; should leave issue there to be dealt with
  197. # [15:39] <oedipus> RM: agree
  198. # [15:39] <oedipus> scribe's note: SP's Action Item on RDFa comments disposed (being done by others)
  199. # [15:40] <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIEs
  200. # [15:40] <oedipus> SM: sent status - i think is ready to go, markB had a few comments
  201. # [15:40] <oedipus> RM: ready to go to LC -- just needs transition request
  202. # [15:40] <oedipus> SP: sent transition request last week --
  203. # [15:41] <oedipus> SM: update working draft today
  204. # [15:41] <oedipus> SP: who will send message?
  205. # [15:41] <oedipus> ACTION Steven: send message about CURIEs transition
  206. # [15:41] * RRSAgent records action 3
  207. # [15:41] <ShaneM> FYI - RDFa version attribute declaration is <!ENTITY % XHTML.version "XHTML+RDFa 1.0" >
  208. # [15:41] <oedipus> RM: Role Module status?
  209. # [15:41] <oedipus> RM: can we take to LC today?
  210. # [15:42] <oedipus> SM: as far as i'm concerned ready to go last week -- question remaining relates to CURIEs
  211. # [15:42] <oedipus> MB: discussions offlist about way CURIEs and Role interact -- my issue is don't think should insist that values that are non-prefixed are invalid; should let those who import role into host language should be allowed to do so
  212. # [15:43] <oedipus> MB: 2 choices -- let docs go through or try and resolve on list so doesn't haunt us during LC
  213. # [15:43] <oedipus> MB: as far as timing, LC comments can be incorporated easily, so shouldn't hold up progress of document
  214. # [15:43] <oedipus> SP: idea of LC is that WG has dealt with all issues in its ken
  215. # [15:43] <oedipus> SP: prefer to discuss on list
  216. # [15:44] <oedipus> RM: values of role attribute fixed?
  217. # [15:45] <oedipus> SM: concerns about CURIE draft or how Role uses it?
  218. # [15:45] <oedipus> MB: minor change needs to be made to Role to use CURIEs
  219. # [15:45] <oedipus> SM: thought resolved
  220. # [15:45] <oedipus> RM: thought problem only with Role -- other problems?
  221. # [15:45] <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie is the live editors draft
  222. # [15:45] <oedipus> MB: i need to re-check, but need to allow un-prefixed values in CURIE spec
  223. # [15:46] <oedipus> SM: we do that
  224. # [15:46] <ShaneM> curie := [ [ prefix ] ':' ] reference
  225. # [15:46] <oedipus> MB: thought that had changed -- if i review after meeting with SM, can move forward on CURIEs and will raise Role issue on list as requested
  226. # [15:46] * oedipus action?
  227. # [15:47] <oedipus> RM: close CURIE today -- go to LC or not; role will take as long as takes to obtain agreement
  228. # [15:47] * oedipus resolution?
  229. # [15:47] <oedipus> RESOLVED: CURIEs issues closed - will move forward to LC
  230. # [15:48] <oedipus> ACTION MarkB: once CURIE draft pushed, post to public-xhtml2 list on Role issues
  231. # [15:48] * RRSAgent records action 4
  232. # [15:48] <oedipus> MB: if WG happy with shane and me making changes will do; if not will raise 2 issues on list
  233. # [15:48] <oedipus> s/on Role issues/on related Role issues
  234. # [15:49] <oedipus> RM: hope to get Role resolved next week
  235. # [15:49] <Zakim> -ShaneM
  236. # [15:49] <Zakim> -Steven
  237. # [15:49] <oedipus> RM: reconvene this time (or later, depending upon where you are) next week
  238. # [15:49] <Zakim> -Roland
  239. # [15:49] <Zakim> -markbirbeck
  240. # [15:49] <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes
  241. # [15:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
  242. # [15:49] * Steven will publish the minutes
  243. # [15:49] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  244. # [15:49] <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
  245. # [15:49] <Zakim> Attendees were +0138687aaaa, Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, +0208761aabb, markbirbeck, McCarron, +1.763.767.aacc, ShaneM
  246. # [15:49] * Steven thanks Gregory
  247. # [15:50] * oedipus ok
  248. # [15:50] * oedipus no problem
  249. # [15:50] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
  250. # [15:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
  251. # [15:50] <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
  252. # [15:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Steven
  253. # [15:50] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
  254. # [15:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
  255. # [16:32] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  256. # [16:54] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  257. # [16:55] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Quit: Leaving)
  258. # [17:05] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100)
  259. # [17:21] * Quits: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124) (Ping timeout)
  260. # [17:52] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13)
  261. # [17:55] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  262. # [17:55] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  263. # [18:08] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.194.3) (Quit: so long, little dudes! don't learn anything i wouldn't learn!)
  264. # [18:57] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Quit: Leaving)
  265. # [19:56] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  266. # [19:56] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  267. # [22:59] * Quits: ShaneM (ShaneM@208.42.66.13) (Ping timeout)
  268. # [23:52] * Quits: Roland (Roland@88.108.108.66) (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)
  269. # Session Close: Thu Mar 27 00:00:00 2008

The end :)