/irc-logs / w3c / #xhtml / 2008-03-26 / end
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- # Session Start: Wed Mar 26 00:00:00 2008
- # Session Ident: #xhtml
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- # [14:42] <Roland> just seen a note saying that W3C telecon system is out of order
- # [14:42] <Roland> I have a telecon system we can use if the W3C one is still broken
- # [14:43] <Roland> Zakim bridge seems to be working
- # [14:44] * Joins: rmerric (586c6c42@128.30.52.43)
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- # [14:45] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-irc
- # [14:45] <rmerric> topic http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0056.html
- # [14:45] * rmerric changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0056.html'
- # [14:46] <Roland> Zakim, this will be XHTML2
- # [14:46] <Zakim> ok, Roland, I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM already started
- # [14:46] <Roland> Zakim, list
- # [14:46] <Zakim> I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, WAI_ERTWG()9:30AM active
- # [14:46] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time is I18N_TS()9:00AM
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- # [14:47] <Roland> Zakim, who is here
- # [14:47] <Zakim> Roland, you need to end that query with '?'
- # [14:48] <Roland> Zakim, who is here?
- # [14:48] <Zakim> On the phone I see +0138687aaaa
- # [14:48] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Lachy, ShaneM_, krijn
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- # [14:48] <Roland> Zakim, aaaa is Roland
- # [14:48] <Zakim> +Roland; got it
- # [14:48] <Roland> Zakim, who is here?
- # [14:48] <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland
- # [14:48] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Lachy, krijn
- # [14:48] * Joins: ShaneM (ShaneM@71.220.86.124)
- # [14:49] <ShaneM> note that I will be a few minutes late - child conflict this AM
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- # [14:49] * Joins: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30)
- # [14:50] <Steven> zakim, who is here?
- # [14:50] <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland
- # [14:50] <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, markbirbeck, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Lachy, krijn
- # [14:50] <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
- # [14:50] <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
- # [14:50] <Roland> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
- # [14:50] <Zakim> +Steven
- # [14:50] <Roland> Chair: Roland
- # [14:50] <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0056.html
- # [14:51] <Steven> Regrets: Tina, Yam
- # [14:52] <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
- # [14:52] <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
- # [14:52] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
- # [14:52] <Zakim> + +0208761aabb
- # [14:52] <markbirbeck> zakim i am aabb
- # [14:52] <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aabb
- # [14:52] <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
- # [14:53] * oedipus shane will be delayed due to parental responsibilities
- # [14:54] <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-xhtml-minutes Previous
- # [14:56] <oedipus> regrets+ Alessio
- # [14:56] * oedipus http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Mar/0064.html
- # [15:00] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
- # [15:00] <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
- # [15:00] * Steven thanks Gregory
- # [15:00] <oedipus> TOPIC: CSS Namespace
- # [15:00] <oedipus> SP: we asked for 3 things: drop it or deprecate it or point it out in the spec that this is a change in CSS and this is how you avoid problems;
- # [15:01] <oedipus> SP: said will ignore comments -- replied to that: asked if refusing to merely pointing out in spec ok
- # [15:01] <oedipus> SP: accept disapproval or get an answer, but if no, have to document before CR
- # [15:02] <oedipus> SP: this has a 1 week heartbeat, so if they accept to point out in spc, we are ok; need to deciide what to do if don't accept any part of our comments?
- # [15:02] <oedipus> SP: object or accept the fact they rejected our comments/suggestion
- # [15:03] <oedipus> SP: don't think much to ask to ask them at the minimum to point out that this is a change in CSS; if don't should say not sufficient, as it is a change in CSS
- # [15:03] <oedipus> RM: inclined to agree
- # [15:03] <oedipus> SP: not much to ask -- don't have to change implementations -- is WG ok with us saying that the least we want them to do is point it out in spec?
- # [15:04] <oedipus> RESOLVED: CSS NS must at least point out that there is change in CSS
- # [15:04] <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML M12n
- # [15:05] <oedipus> SP: waiting on Shane to make a new iteration of draft; he's done that, so i'm emailing steve bratt and going throough points and pointing to new spec and asking if ok with transition
- # [15:05] <oedipus> RM: just going through process
- # [15:05] <oedipus> ACTION: StevenP - point SteveB to new wording in M12n
- # [15:05] * RRSAgent records action 1
- # [15:05] <oedipus> SP: "would you have a look at the new/latest version of the report"
- # [15:05] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-basic-11-implementation.html
- # [15:06] <oedipus> SP: at bottom, there is a pointer to Yam's response and test report
- # [15:06] <oedipus> [please stand by -- we are temporarily experiencing technical difficulties]
- # [15:07] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/a-w3c-inputmode-test-report071130.pdf
- # [15:07] <oedipus> SP: need to correct test report with above URI
- # [15:08] <oedipus> SP: [fixed implementation report - can now get PDF report from draft]
- # [15:08] <oedipus> MB: input mode?
- # [15:09] <oedipus> SP: since rest has been implemented, only new item is input mode -- we had exchange with Steve Bratt to see if ok to have single implementation because is optional feature, and he said that was ok; have to organize another transition call with SteveB
- # [15:09] <oedipus> RM: see if he's happy then schedule LC
- # [15:09] <oedipus> SP: will take us to CR
- # [15:10] <oedipus> ACTION SP: ensure SteveB ok with single implementation and get transition in progress
- # [15:10] * RRSAgent records action 2
- # [15:10] * oedipus was that specific enough?
- # [15:10] <oedipus> TOPIC: Mime Type
- # [15:11] <oedipus> SP: Karl seems to think anything not absolutely valid and without application/xml mime-type is NOT xhtml -- that's only a single person's opinion
- # [15:11] <oedipus> SP: DanC agrees with us but doesn't see the problem
- # [15:12] <oedipus> SP: will discuss at this week's HTC call -- request discussion now or simply move ahead
- # [15:12] <oedipus> RM: prepare materials to be published as part of the mime-types first draft; explain what we have done, what has changed, and what is purpose, can then bring up at HTC
- # [15:13] <oedipus> SP: like fact that there are a lot of major web sites delivering xhtml as text/html -- proves can be done and that it works without doing any harm
- # [15:14] <oedipus> RM: seen doctype "HTML Core" but use closing slashes -- real mixture both ways
- # [15:14] <oedipus> SP: drop line to webmaster to change doctype
- # [15:14] <oedipus> GJR: FYI: the "official" format of Open Accessibility (http://a11y.org) specs is XHTML 1.0 Strict
- # [15:14] <oedipus> SP: Shane preparing new draft to take to HTC
- # [15:15] <oedipus> RM: don't foresee any problem -- already allowed
- # [15:15] <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIE Transition
- # [15:15] <oedipus> RM: everything ready to go, but we don't have shane on call -- suggestions as to topics while we wait
- # [15:16] <oedipus> SP: could briefly talk about TAG's opinion about mime-type when using RDFa
- # [15:16] <oedipus> RM: pointer?
- # [15:16] <oedipus> SP: comes under RDFa syntax; have action to let TAG know we disagree -- was drafting reply and realized we hadn't spoken with RDFa group, so i raised it at last week's meeting
- # [15:16] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html
- # [15:16] <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-rdfa-minutes.html#item02
- # [15:17] <oedipus> SP: self-describing web (item 2)
- # [15:18] <oedipus> SP: BenA (chair of Task Force) asked if TAG wrong; Ralph abstained no one else agreeed; RDFa group almost unanimously agree with us that media type doesn't need to be updated to use RDFa data in HTML
- # [15:18] <oedipus> RM: namespace?
- # [15:18] <Zakim> +McCarron
- # [15:18] <oedipus> SP: don't understand TAG point at all or what is foundation of belief -- hard to argue against updating media type
- # [15:19] <oedipus> MB: TAG logic is that somebody should not be held accountable for statements made unless accountability indicator
- # [15:19] <oedipus> SM: proposed wording towards end of last call
- # [15:19] <oedipus> SP: norm walsh proposed wording or you (ShaneM) proposed wording
- # [15:20] <oedipus> MB: NormW raised issues, ShaneM replied, and everything was ok -- Norm's was most vocal objection, and we have cleared it
- # [15:20] <oedipus> SP: pointer?
- # [15:20] <oedipus> SM: has an issue number in tracker (not at PC)
- # [15:21] <oedipus> SM: suggested wording something like "conforming parsers MUST extract triples if present; authors who want to use triples should use proper methods" or words to that effect
- # [15:21] <oedipus> RM: where can we find the exchange
- # [15:21] <oedipus> SM: in the RDFa task force log somewhere
- # [15:21] <oedipus> SP: NormW's emails all about missing @profile in test case
- # [15:22] <oedipus> SM: origin of issue; DanC asked why test cases didn't all have @profile and then others asked why isn't that required
- # [15:22] <oedipus> SP: quotes from NormW -- (pointer?)
- # [15:23] <oedipus> SM: interesting that NW thinks we are changing the meaning of HTML; so does TBL -- don't think we have done that at all
- # [15:23] <oedipus> SP: me neither
- # [15:23] <oedipus> GJR: nor me
- # [15:23] <oedipus> SP: next steps?
- # [15:24] <oedipus> SP: if this is all result of a LC comment which has been disposed and the commentor has stated publically can live with WG's response, can we move forward -- TAG document only a WD, so can wait until before LC to comment upon that
- # [15:24] <oedipus> SP: new doctype
- # [15:25] <oedipus> SM: not new media type, but new doctype
- # [15:25] <oedipus> RM: but have introduced new doctype for this
- # [15:25] <oedipus> SP: want one to be able to ID documents that have RDFa in it; then TBL says doctypes are obsolete and advises us to remove DTD...
- # [15:26] <oedipus> SP: but, having said that, have "version" attribute in XHTML -- is an announcement mechanism, so should point that out to TAG
- # [15:26] <oedipus> SP: have we finalized format of "version" attribute -- struck me that one possible format is identify used in DOCTYPE --
- # [15:26] <oedipus> SM: exactly what is in there now
- # [15:26] <oedipus> SM: inconsistent with XHTML 1.0 and 1.1 and Basic
- # [15:27] <oedipus> SM: use longer formal public identifier
- # [15:27] <oedipus> SM: never investigated this
- # [15:28] <oedipus> SP: issues about doctype -- doctype causes current browsers use DTD to switch to standards mode; nowadays have to do that to be in standards mode
- # [15:28] <Zakim> -McCarron
- # [15:28] <oedipus> SP: second if want character entities, HAVE to use doctypes -- if can't solve those issues, doctypes going to be around for a long time to come
- # [15:28] <Zakim> + +1.763.767.aacc
- # [15:28] <oedipus> RM: that's exactly what problem is
- # [15:28] <ShaneM> zakim, aacc is ShaneM
- # [15:28] <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
- # [15:29] <oedipus> SP: TBL recently started talking down doctypes and i'm not sure why or why he cares
- # [15:29] <oedipus> RM: not playing down doctypes per se, but stating no need for doctype
- # [15:29] <oedipus> SP: shouldn't be a "must"
- # [15:29] <oedipus> RM: just said "remove doctypes" from our specs, not the world
- # [15:29] <oedipus> SM: i thought he said remove DTD
- # [15:30] <oedipus> RM: what's the diff?
- # [15:30] <oedipus> SM: DTD schema declaration
- # [15:30] <oedipus> RM: remove doctype requirement, not forcing loading of DTD -- if want to validate, need to keep doctype
- # [15:30] * oedipus attribution of above ok?
- # [15:31] <oedipus> SM: reads from TBL -- besides, don't have "must" but "should"
- # [15:31] <oedipus> RM: what ascpect of that do you disagree with -- insist on DTDs forever?
- # [15:31] <oedipus> SM: M12n 1.1 has to have a DTD -- no other implementation technique; second need DTD to validate
- # [15:31] <oedipus> SP: doesn't hurt anyone
- # [15:32] <oedipus> SM: if want XHTML+RDFa to work in current browsers have to have announcement mechanism browsers understand, and that is doctype
- # [15:32] <oedipus> RM: Shane saying we do need announcement mechanism
- # [15:33] <oedipus> SM: for it to work in existing browsers
- # [15:33] <oedipus> RM: how does that make a difference?
- # [15:33] <oedipus> SP: doctype declaration mark is what browsers use to switch into standards mode
- # [15:33] <oedipus> SM: want XHTML document to render properly
- # [15:34] <oedipus> RM: standards mode about processing, not about processing xhtml
- # [15:34] <oedipus> SM: consistent rendering comes from standards mode
- # [15:34] <oedipus> RM: what has to do with RDFa?
- # [15:35] <oedipus> SM: nothing -- require for consistency amongst the family -- has nothing to do with RDFa, but XHTML
- # [15:35] <oedipus> RM: don't require in RDFa
- # [15:35] <oedipus> SM: wg told me to make it a "should" a few months ago
- # [15:35] <oedipus> RM: trying to understand what you think we need and why TBL doesn't understand what we need
- # [15:36] <oedipus> SP: TBL wants markup that states "this document has RDFa in it" -- DTD not wanted because "old fashioned" -- our response is DTD not required, but is quite useful (for validation, for example) -- does no harm can leave out or include -- also method currently used as marker to declare RDFa
- # [15:37] <oedipus> SP: if took away would have to invent another markup
- # [15:37] <oedipus> SM: have "version" atttribute for that
- # [15:38] <oedipus> SM: all that aside, issue of XHTML family docs and behavior when delivered as text/html -- another thread; note suggests that way to ensure document works consistently is to use DTD, follow appendix c (moving to doctype portion), -- if do that, should behave properly and render properly across UAs
- # [15:39] <oedipus> SP: do we need to do anything with TAG right now -- this discussion has gone over to RDFa task force, and turned up there as LC comments; should leave issue there to be dealt with
- # [15:39] <oedipus> RM: agree
- # [15:39] <oedipus> scribe's note: SP's Action Item on RDFa comments disposed (being done by others)
- # [15:40] <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIEs
- # [15:40] <oedipus> SM: sent status - i think is ready to go, markB had a few comments
- # [15:40] <oedipus> RM: ready to go to LC -- just needs transition request
- # [15:40] <oedipus> SP: sent transition request last week --
- # [15:41] <oedipus> SM: update working draft today
- # [15:41] <oedipus> SP: who will send message?
- # [15:41] <oedipus> ACTION Steven: send message about CURIEs transition
- # [15:41] * RRSAgent records action 3
- # [15:41] <ShaneM> FYI - RDFa version attribute declaration is <!ENTITY % XHTML.version "XHTML+RDFa 1.0" >
- # [15:41] <oedipus> RM: Role Module status?
- # [15:41] <oedipus> RM: can we take to LC today?
- # [15:42] <oedipus> SM: as far as i'm concerned ready to go last week -- question remaining relates to CURIEs
- # [15:42] <oedipus> MB: discussions offlist about way CURIEs and Role interact -- my issue is don't think should insist that values that are non-prefixed are invalid; should let those who import role into host language should be allowed to do so
- # [15:43] <oedipus> MB: 2 choices -- let docs go through or try and resolve on list so doesn't haunt us during LC
- # [15:43] <oedipus> MB: as far as timing, LC comments can be incorporated easily, so shouldn't hold up progress of document
- # [15:43] <oedipus> SP: idea of LC is that WG has dealt with all issues in its ken
- # [15:43] <oedipus> SP: prefer to discuss on list
- # [15:44] <oedipus> RM: values of role attribute fixed?
- # [15:45] <oedipus> SM: concerns about CURIE draft or how Role uses it?
- # [15:45] <oedipus> MB: minor change needs to be made to Role to use CURIEs
- # [15:45] <oedipus> SM: thought resolved
- # [15:45] <oedipus> RM: thought problem only with Role -- other problems?
- # [15:45] <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/curie is the live editors draft
- # [15:45] <oedipus> MB: i need to re-check, but need to allow un-prefixed values in CURIE spec
- # [15:46] <oedipus> SM: we do that
- # [15:46] <ShaneM> curie := [ [ prefix ] ':' ] reference
- # [15:46] <oedipus> MB: thought that had changed -- if i review after meeting with SM, can move forward on CURIEs and will raise Role issue on list as requested
- # [15:46] * oedipus action?
- # [15:47] <oedipus> RM: close CURIE today -- go to LC or not; role will take as long as takes to obtain agreement
- # [15:47] * oedipus resolution?
- # [15:47] <oedipus> RESOLVED: CURIEs issues closed - will move forward to LC
- # [15:48] <oedipus> ACTION MarkB: once CURIE draft pushed, post to public-xhtml2 list on Role issues
- # [15:48] * RRSAgent records action 4
- # [15:48] <oedipus> MB: if WG happy with shane and me making changes will do; if not will raise 2 issues on list
- # [15:48] <oedipus> s/on Role issues/on related Role issues
- # [15:49] <oedipus> RM: hope to get Role resolved next week
- # [15:49] <Zakim> -ShaneM
- # [15:49] <Zakim> -Steven
- # [15:49] <oedipus> RM: reconvene this time (or later, depending upon where you are) next week
- # [15:49] <Zakim> -Roland
- # [15:49] <Zakim> -markbirbeck
- # [15:49] <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes
- # [15:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
- # [15:49] * Steven will publish the minutes
- # [15:49] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
- # [15:49] <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
- # [15:49] <Zakim> Attendees were +0138687aaaa, Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, +0208761aabb, markbirbeck, McCarron, +1.763.767.aacc, ShaneM
- # [15:49] * Steven thanks Gregory
- # [15:50] * oedipus ok
- # [15:50] * oedipus no problem
- # [15:50] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
- # [15:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
- # [15:50] <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
- # [15:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Steven
- # [15:50] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
- # [15:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/26-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
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- # Session Close: Thu Mar 27 00:00:00 2008
The end :)