Session Start: Sun Feb 22 00:00:00 2009
Session Ident: #whatwg
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[00:32] <annevk> Philip`, that doesn't really seem the right argument against his general point
[00:33] <annevk> Philip`, it only points out why the syntax doesn't work, not why the idea of having a  number there is wrong
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[01:06] <Lachy> I updated the FAQ's DOCTYPE question. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_will_the_DOCTYPE_be.3F
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[01:07] <Lachy> I also added another about when using a DOCTYPE in XHTML is reasonable
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[01:13] <Dashiva> "and do to retrieve external entities"
[01:13] <Dashiva> That's not 100% clear to me
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[01:30] <Lachy> Dashiva, it was supposed to say "do not". Fixed it
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[04:55] <Hixie> woah, .htaccess <files> sections override ForceType directives in lower .htaccess files
[04:55] <jcranmer> interesting use of HTML: as a stand in for programming code
[04:55] <jcranmer> < div classajkhdhsa01f0.aesf4v>
[04:56] <jcranmer> </div><div classdhnds
[04:56] <jcranmer> ? Alt ="" Height = " 190" width =" 130
[04:56] <jcranmer> " Bori![CDATA[fboo
[04:57] <Hixie> ok i fixed the status-documentation.html thing but boy is that confusing
[04:57] <Hixie> speaking of confusing
[04:57] <Hixie> has anyone here read the RDFa processing model implementation requirements?
[04:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: i use that title="" when regenning the web-socket i-d
[04:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: and deleting the source file wouldn't really make html5 easier to read, since it would itself get regenned from the working-copy file :-P
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[09:26] <Hixie> hm, feedback from yahoo
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[09:55] <Philip`> Hixie: When you say "from yahoo", do you mean "from someone who is using the free Yahoo mail service"?
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[10:06] <Hixie> Philip`: oh, are @yahoo e-mail addresses not yahoo employees?
[10:06] <Hixie> oh well
[10:11] <Philip`> Hixie: No, just users
[10:19] <gavin_> they use yahooinc.com for corporate addresses, I think
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[10:32] <jwalden> or yahoo-inc maybe, think it's the latter but am not entirely sure
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[11:03] * Hixie ponders how to fix the <video> load() problem
[11:05] <Hixie> namely that <video><source src=a><source src=b></video> doesn't load src=b
[11:05] <Hixie> if src=a is broken
[11:05] <Hixie> because when b is inserted, <video> is still checking a
[11:06] <Hixie> maybe but i've no way of knowing that there is another <source> coming
[11:06] <Hixie> so i can't wait...
[11:06] <Hixie> and i can't just run the algorithm again when b comes along, because then a will be fetched twice
[11:07] <Hixie> let
[11:07] <Hixie> er
[11:07] <Hixie> i have the following events:
[11:07] <Hixie> video created
[11:07] <Hixie> video inserted
[11:07] <Hixie> source created
[11:07] <Hixie> source inserted
[11:07] <Hixie> src added/changed/removed
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[11:14] <Hixie> but source could have been inserted by script before another...
[11:15] <Hixie> if script adds sources, we should probably wait for a load()
[11:15] <Hixie> but if the parser does it should probably be implied...
[11:15] <Hixie> hm, assymetry
[11:17] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until reaching the </video>?
[11:17] <Hixie> there might not be on, consider <span><video><source></span>
[11:18] <Hixie> one
[11:18] <Hixie> or <video>EOF
[11:18] <Philip`> Oh, right
[11:18] <Hixie> it would be nice to have the parser just be like a script
[11:19] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts?
[11:19] <Hixie> parser inserts video (which might have a src), then inserts sources
[11:19] <Hixie> we could, but the page might never finish downloading
[11:19] <Hixie> consider an infinite iframe used for "comet"-like stuff which includes both <script> and <audio> elements
[11:21] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until either reaching the </video> or until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts, whichever comes earliest?
[11:22] <Hixie> we could but that's not very intuitive
[11:22] <Hixie> we're trying to make the platform less quirky, not more :-)
[11:22] <Philip`> (By "</video>" I probably mean "anything that causes the video element to be popped from the stack of open elements", if I remember the parser correctly)
[11:22] <Hixie> there's no real good place to hook into the parser to do that currently
[11:23] <Hixie> and i'd really rather not do anything in the parser
[11:23] <Hixie> <script> has proven that to be a nightmare
[11:23] <Hixie> it also gets really complicated to redefine it for xml
[11:23] <Hixie> and it means you can't use DOM manipulation to pretend to be a parser
[11:23] <Hixie> such as hsivonen's live dom viewer
[11:24] <Hixie> what would we want to have happen is an author inserts <video>, <source>, <source>, then moves the first source to after the second
[11:25] <Philip`> Fair enough
[11:27] <Lachy> wtf? "I develop on Win95a and 98SE [...]." -- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6606
[11:29] <Lachy> A developer is the last kind of person I'd expect to be using exremely obsolete software
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[11:30] * Philip` used Windows 2000 until about 2007, but using 95 today is really going a step too far
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[11:33] <Hixie> the difficulty is distinguishing between <video><source><source> and <video><source><!-- long delay --><souce>
[11:34] <Lachy> I'm still using XP, it's nearly 8 years old now too, and I expect I'll still keep it around until Microsoft drops support for it or stops releasing new IE releases for it
[11:34] <Hixie> i suppose we could get rid of the list of potential media resources
[11:35] <Hixie> and just have it so that the load() algorithm, once invoked, remembers where it was, and walks down the list of <source> elements...
[11:35] <Hixie> though if one is removed...
[11:35] <Hixie> hmm
[11:36] <Hixie> this may require a rewrite of how media elements load resources
[11:36] <Hixie> but if we keep it similar enough that shouldn't be a big deal...
[11:36] * Hixie stops talking to himself and switches to his editor
[11:38] <Philip`> You have an editor?
[11:38] <Hixie> emacs
[11:38] <Philip`> I thought you were doing all the work yourself, not just proxying feedback to the real editor and stealing all the credit for his work
[11:39] <Hixie> if there was someone else to blame, you can bet i'd be letting them take all the blame
[11:51] <Hixie> src="" proves problematic even with this system
[11:51] <Hixie> maybe we need a new NETWORK_ state
[11:52] <Hixie> NETWORK_EMPTY would mean that nothing is happening yet, and NETWORK_WAITING would mean that the load algorithm is active but has no resource to load
[11:53] <Hixie> and NETWORK_LOADING would mean that the algorithm is actively trying to load something
[11:53] <Hixie> NETWORK_NONE, NETWORK_WAITING, NETWORK_LOADING, NETWORK_IDLE, NETWORK_LOADED, maybe?
[11:53] <Hixie> eh i'm going to bed
[11:54] <Hixie> nn
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[13:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do you know all cases where you actually mean @title? I've got Anolis working with data-anolis-xref locally
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[14:31] <yecril71> Lachy!  How do you run Internet Explorer on Wine?
[14:32] <yecril71> Wine is for third-party applications that are SDK-compliant;
[14:32] <yecril71> Microsoft’s applications are not SDK-compliant.
[14:33] <yecril71> <!DOCTYPE HTML> triggers HTML5 mode now in W3C’s validator.
[14:34] <yecril71> I wonder whether it is a good thing.
[14:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: the marked for extraction markers have a bogus month (00)
[14:36] <yecril71> krijnh! The log pages should be described as using ISO-8859-1.
[14:37] <yecril71> Internet Explorer sets the encoding to UTF-8.
[14:38] <hsivonen> yecril71: why? people are supposed to speak UTF-8 here
[14:40] <yecril71> But the logs are in ISO.
[14:41] <yecril71> 8859-1.
[14:41] <yecril71> So either fix the logs or tag them.
[14:41] <hsivonen> ‽
[14:41] <yecril71> The headers says Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 but it is not true.
[14:42] <yecril71> Your question mark caused my computer to hang for 10 s. :-)
[14:43] <hsivonen> yecril71: it seems my interrobang was correctly logged as UTF-8 and served without NCRs
[14:43] <yecril71> But look at Microsoft?s applications above.
[14:43] <hsivonen> yecril71: are you sure it isn't a problem at your end with your client speaking Windows-1252 instead of UTF-8?
[14:44] <hsivonen> krijnh: if a line doesn't decode as UTF-8, you should probably decode it as Windows-1252 for robustness. That's what irssi does.
[14:44] <yecril71> How do I change the output encoding?
[14:45] <hsivonen> yecril71: do you have irssi?
[14:46] <yecril71> I have mIRC 6.21
[14:46] <hsivonen> then I don't know
[14:46] <Philip`> yecril71: http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page
[14:47] <Philip`> hsivonen: All the status markers have bogus months (they're counting from 0 instead of 1)
[14:49] <Philip`> (Perl's localtime function is a bit unintuitive - you have to add 1 to the month and 1900 to the year)
[14:51] <yecril71> ies4linux says: ‘Tons of e-mails losted’.
[14:52] <yecril71> With a reflexive hyperlink to make it better :-)
[14:52] <yecril71> However, Philip`, do you happen to know what the trick behind it would be?
[14:53] <Philip`> yecril71: I don't think there's any particular trick - it's just IE, and Wine, and everything configured and packed together so it works
[14:54] <Philip`> http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=469 describes how to make it work in regular Wine
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[14:57] <yecril71> Gosh, that page is unreadable.
[14:59] <krijnh> ?
[15:00] <krijnh> yecril71: mIRC sucks :)
[15:00] <Philip`> When I last used mIRC, there were two separate options you had to enable in order to make Unicode work
[15:01] <Philip`> With irssi I only had to set one configuration option
[15:01] <Philip`> and a command-line option
[15:01] <Philip`> and environment variables on two computers
[15:01] <Philip`> and recompile irssi
[15:01] <Philip`> but then it worked fine
[15:02] <yecril71> ROTFL
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[15:02] <yecril71> krijnh!  probably it does, and I am not surprised.
[15:05] * yecril71 was glad to see <http://browsers.evolt.org/>
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[15:08] <krijnh> yecril71: I use mIRC as well btw ;)
[15:09] <krijnh> And I have no idea in what encoding the logfiles are saved
[15:12] <yecril71> It seems it decides on line-by-line basis between ISO-8859-1 and UTF-8.
[15:13] <krijnh> That's pretty weird
[15:14] <yecril71> Or rather CP1252 and CP65001, to be precise.
[15:15] <krijnh> Simple solution: all of you shouldn't use any weird characters :)
[15:16] * yecril71 loves curly quotes and non-breaking spaces
[15:20] * Philip` supposes mIRC just stores the bytes it got from the network
[15:20] <Philip`> and the network probably just transmits the bytes that clients send it
[15:20] <Philip`> so if people use stupid clients that don't send UTF-8 then you'll end up with a mixture