/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2012-11-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  17. # [02:15] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 684302 on bug 804461.
  18. # [02:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=804461 nor, --, mozilla19, surkov.alexander, REOP, build the context dependent tree
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  37. # [05:58] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 816011 from --- to FIXED.
  38. # [05:58] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 816011 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  39. # [05:58] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 816011 from --- to mozilla20.
  40. # [05:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=816011 cri, --, mozilla20, nobody, RESO FIXED, crash in mozilla::a11y::nsAccessNodeWrap::scrollTo
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  52. # [09:20] <fxa90id> hmm
  53. # [09:20] <fxa90id> I cant build source on linux with build/pymake/make.py
  54. # [09:20] <fxa90id> some export error appears
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  57. # [10:15] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 686479 on bug 815646.
  58. # [10:15] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815646 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Intermittent accessible/states/test_link.html | Doubled event { event type: document load complete,
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  60. # [10:38] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Assignee on bug 810572 from nobody@mozilla.org to surkov.alexander@gmail.com.
  61. # [10:38] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested review from trev.saunders@gmail .com for attachment 686485 on bug 810572.
  62. # [10:38] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com requested superreview from neil@hushboom. com for attachment 686485 on bug 810572.
  63. # [10:38] <@firebot> surkov.alexander@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 810572 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  64. # [10:38] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=810572 nor, --, ---, surkov.alexander, ASSI, comb accessible type support
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  68. # [11:19] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 816453 filed by scoobidiver@netcourrier.com.
  69. # [11:19] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=816453 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, crash in nsAccessibilityService::CreateHTMLObjectFrameAccessible
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  73. # [12:36] <Stevef> tbsaunde: hi, what are your concerns with <main>? do you think the data and use cases are not robust enough?
  74. # [12:36] <Stevef> tbsaunde: or is it a problem with whats in the spec?
  75. # [12:41] <Stevef> tbsaunde: data and analysis http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0109.html use cases and rationale http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Sfaulkne/main-usecases#Introduction spec text http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/tip/maincontent/index.html
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  86. # [14:40] <@tbsaunde> Stevef: honestly I think I more or less agree with Hixie here, mostly that the use cases aren't very strong
  87. # [14:41] <Stevef> tbsaunde: none of them? or some in particular? and how do they compare to use cases for <header><footer> etc,trying to get a handle on your perception of weakness
  88. # [14:43] <Stevef> tbsaunde: sorry for bugging you , but saying 'I agree with hixie' is not giving me a lot to go on, as hixie has not made convincing arguments against the data and use cases
  89. # [14:45] <@tbsaunde> Stevef: well, that's tricky since I tend to think his arguments are strong enough :/
  90. # [14:46] <@tbsaunde> i'll say I haven't seen a usecase I thought was very good
  91. # [14:47] <@tbsaunde> also, there's the problem that what do you do with <main> if your main content has a <aside> in the middle of it or something?
  92. # [14:47] <Stevef> tbsaunde: simple, you nest it inside, there is no problem with that
  93. # [14:48] <Stevef> just as there is no problem with nesting role=complementary inside role=main
  94. # [14:48] <Stevef> it ammounts to the same thing
  95. # [14:48] <@tbsaunde> Stevef: that... seems undesireable, I'd think you'd want it outside so getting the kids of the main content only gets you what you want
  96. # [14:49] <@tbsaunde> Stevef: sure, and I argue nesting roles that way is bad
  97. # [14:49] <@tbsaunde> UX wise anyway
  98. # [14:50] <Stevef> there is not restriction in ARIA for nesting or nesting of aside inside section or article so its difficult to argue against
  99. # [14:51] <Stevef> tbsaunde: as far as use cases go without specific feedback on the deficiencies its not possible to respomd, so wount bug you anymore
  100. # [14:51] <Stevef> apologies for spelling errors
  101. # [14:51] <@tbsaunde> ok, so the usecase for role=main is that that's the content you want to read right?
  102. # [14:52] <@tbsaunde> so, if you put an aside or something in your main content presumably people who only want to read the main content want to skip of the aside
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  105. # [14:52] <@tbsaunde> as well as stuff before / after the role=main thing
  106. # [14:53] <Stevef> which an at user can do
  107. # [14:53] <@tbsaunde> Stevef: np about spelling, I'm not really sure what to tell you about how to make better use cases :/
  108. # [14:54] <Stevef> thats what the landmark roles provide right? the ability to move to, move over and move into areas of content
  109. # [14:54] <@tbsaunde> then why can't they skip the stuff before the role=main in the same way?
  110. # [14:56] <@tbsaunde> Stevef: one thing you could try for usecases is to come up with some markup that really haas to be the way it is too work, and breaks all reasonable huristics
  111. # [14:57] <Stevef> ? they can but if there is not indicator of the main content how do they know they have reached it? if the content is marked up with <header> some content <footer> then the landmark tree will be header> footer
  112. # [14:58] <Stevef> tbsaunde: unclear about what you mean? which browsers or AT use heuristics to indicate the main content?
  113. # [15:00] <Stevef> tbsaunde: and do any have plans to do so?
  114. # [15:01] <Stevef> tbsaunde: AT tend to expose explicit HTML semantics when available...
  115. # [15:01] <@tbsaunde> I think most of the screen readers I've used have ways to skip past garbage
  116. # [15:02] <@tbsaunde> so versions of jaws a long time ago nvda orca
  117. # [15:02] <Stevef> so are you saying that landmarks in general are not useful or just main?
  118. # [15:02] <@tbsaunde> as for browsers I don't know about a browser caring what the main content is
  119. # [15:02] <@tbsaunde> main in particular
  120. # [15:04] <Stevef> interesting most screen reader users I know find it useful
  121. # [15:05] <@tbsaunde> interesting
  122. # [15:05] <Stevef> and its absence leaves a whole in the landmark structure of a page
  123. # [15:06] <Stevef> hole
  124. # [15:07] <Stevef> I will ping some users and get back to you
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  130. # [15:10] <@marcoz> stevef: tbsaunde: I agree, I use landmark quick navigation often to get to the Main content area, I prefer them over skip links even. Having a proper element replace role="main" would be very benefitial, IMO, since it is less ambiguous, and also reduces the need for one more ARIA role.
  131. # [15:10] <@davidb> heyo!
  132. # [15:10] <@davidb> hi Stevef
  133. # [15:10] * @davidb hunts coffee
  134. # [15:10] <Stevef> marcoz: well at least one user agrees :-)
  135. # [15:11] <Stevef> hi dave
  136. # [15:11] <@hub> I need to hunt coffee too
  137. # [15:11] <@marcoz> Hi davidb, hub!
  138. # [15:13] <Stevef> tbsaunde: have tweeted a question see what come up https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/274154926060498945
  139. # [15:13] <Stevef> comes
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  141. # [15:22] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 814386 from --- to FIXED.
  142. # [15:22] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 814386 from NEW to RESOLVED.
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  145. # [15:22] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 814386 from --- to mozilla20.
  146. # [15:22] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814386 nor, --, mozilla20, surkov.alexander, RESO FIXED, ASSERTION: No parent accessible. Should we really assert here
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  148. # [15:25] <@davidb> Stevef
  149. # [15:25] <@davidb> bad timing
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  151. # [15:25] <@davidb> aha!
  152. # [15:25] <@davidb> Stevef: so… phone call or chat here?
  153. # [15:25] <Stevef> chats fine
  154. # [15:25] <@davidb> ok
  155. # [15:25] <@davidb> this way Hixie can see it too since he is here
  156. # [15:26] <Stevef> sure
  157. # [15:26] <@davidb> Stevef: so even after all these years I don't really understand how exactly an element comes to be.
  158. # [15:26] <@davidb> I'm re-reading whatwg thread
  159. # [15:27] <Stevef> well a new feaure wahtever it is can start with uses cases and data > spec > implementation
  160. # [15:28] <@davidb> and one other thing seems to be non-redundancy
  161. # [15:29] <@davidb> Which in this case, with ARIA I think is a bit off track.
  162. # [15:29] <@davidb> Since using ARIA is a fail case.
  163. # [15:31] * @davidb chats a bit backchannel since it is tangential
  164. # [15:31] <@davidb> Stevef: so how do you feel about the use cases and data? It sounds like there isn't agreement there.
  165. # [15:32] <@davidb> Are there examples of where this was asked on whatwg and successfully delivered resulting in spec + impl?
  166. # [15:32] <@davidb> For another element?
  167. # [15:32] <@davidb> Perhaps <section>?
  168. # [15:33] <@davidb> Looks like I should also read Silvia's blog
  169. # [15:33] <Stevef> davidb: there is broad agreement amongst those who have participated that <main> is a reasonable addition
  170. # [15:33] <@davidb> Right, but the pushback asks for specifics. I'm wondering if that is normal.
  171. # [15:34] <Stevef> that it was came across on the whatwg and at TPAC HTML WG
  172. # [15:34] <Stevef> which pushback?
  173. # [15:35] <@davidb> Stevef: I guess Hixie, and also Brendan wanting to help find a conclusion although both I think are still willing to change their mind.
  174. # [15:35] <Stevef> at the F2F and on WHATWG list it was asked is there anybody apart from hixie that objects to this feature
  175. # [15:35] <Stevef> public record
  176. # [15:35] <@davidb> ah ok
  177. # [15:35] <@davidb> As you know, for the record, I have no problem with <main> and think it could be useful.
  178. # [15:36] <@davidb> I think our past chats were backchannel so that probably isn't logged anywhere.
  179. # [15:36] <@davidb> So there is this "high bar" thing...
  180. # [15:36] <@davidb> Which makes some sense, but I want to understand it.
  181. # [15:36] <@davidb> I want to see examples of how other elements were discussed against some sort of bar.
  182. # [15:37] <@davidb> Obviously there is a desire to keep the spec finite, so it seems a fair point.
  183. # [15:37] <@davidb> Discussing consensus that is later blocked is something I don't think I can help solve today.
  184. # [15:38] <@davidb> I think it is sort of funny peculiar not to have <main> along with the other larger section semantics.
  185. # [15:38] <Stevef> thats a good point, I ask for that from hixie and others and the detail of data and use cases provided for other structural elements that have been added and never get and pointers to public record
  186. # [15:39] <@davidb> too bad
  187. # [15:39] <@davidb> That would be useful.
  188. # [15:39] <Stevef> well yes...
  189. # [15:40] <@davidb> I can say that if <main> is adopted and used properly, then I would like a browser that crops to main only :)
  190. # [15:40] <@davidb> (I joke)
  191. # [15:40] <@davidb> Stevef: was the use case of small screen devices defaulting to showing <main> zoomed in explicitly brought up?
  192. # [15:41] <@davidb> I think someone said Silvia brought that up?
  193. # [15:41] <@davidb> And obviously magnifiers benefit from same solutions.
  194. # [15:41] <Stevef> but it is clear that some of the new elements have had very slim use cases e.g <hgroup>
  195. # [15:41] <@davidb> sighted and non sighted keyboard users obviously like to skip links
  196. # [15:41] <Stevef> looking now
  197. # [15:42] <@davidb> hgroup… I seem to recall that was controversial
  198. # [15:43] * @davidb hugs coffee
  199. # [15:43] <Stevef> http://blog.gingertech.net/2012/11/28/the-use-cases-for-a-main-element-in-html/ silvias recent post
  200. # [15:43] <Stevef> yeah but its in the specs
  201. # [15:43] <Stevef> thats why the high bar thing is well...
  202. # [15:44] <@davidb> ok yeah i am skimming that on the side
  203. # [15:44] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Resolution on bug 815397 from --- to FIXED.
  204. # [15:44] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Status on bug 815397 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  205. # [15:44] <@firebot> edmorley.bugzilla@edmorley.co.uk changed the Target Milestone on bug 815397 from --- to mozilla20.
  206. # [15:44] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815397 nor, --, mozilla20, continuation, RESO FIXED, Update Accessibility cycle collector traverse/unlink definitions
  207. # [15:45] <@davidb> I think Silvia's blog is very supportive of having a <main> element.
  208. # [15:45] <Stevef> yeah, a wide range of people are supportive
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  210. # [15:45] <Stevef> heres some examples of uses cases from the whatwg wiki http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale#hgroup_and_other_heading_elements
  211. # [15:47] <@davidb> I think Silvia's support is of high value since it involves research. I mean lots of people can support willy nilly over twitter :)
  212. # [15:47] <@davidb> That came out wrong.
  213. # [15:47] <@davidb> I should say, I could do a +1 myself but I wouldn't expect that to make a difference unless I have some data.
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  215. # [15:48] <@davidb> At least not in the case where there is pushback.
  216. # [15:48] <@davidb> ok looking at hgroup
  217. # [15:48] <Stevef> well I wish someone would point me to strong data from detractors
  218. # [15:49] <@davidb> Stevef: I do think the point about small screens could be useful, but only if people accept that the "main" by deduction fails often enough.
  219. # [15:50] <@davidb> I'm not sure I'm reading anything interesting about hgroup there :)
  220. # [15:51] <@davidb> Everyone else seems quiet… this is a free channel ya know :)
  221. # [15:51] <Stevef> thats the point use cases for the new structural elements is mythical
  222. # [15:51] <@davidb> Ah haha
  223. # [15:51] <@davidb> It sounds like it was something that makes implementation saner...
  224. # [15:52] <Stevef> and the data for them is https://developers.google.com/webmasters/state-of-the-web/2005/classes
  225. # [15:52] <@marcoz> davidb: i already voiced my opinion. :)
  226. # [15:52] <Stevef> "This actually maps very well to the elements that are being proposed in HTML5"
  227. # [15:54] <@davidb> Could hgroup have been deduced like the argument goes with <main>?
  228. # [15:54] <Stevef> yes, but is orders of magnitude less useful and less needed as a feature on the web than <main> anyways
  229. # [15:55] <@tbsaunde> davidb: is that relavent? having done something that wasn't a good idea doesn't really mean you should do it again
  230. # [15:55] <Stevef> my opinion
  231. # [15:55] <@davidb> hmmm
  232. # [15:55] <@davidb> true
  233. # [15:55] <@davidb> so bad example.
  234. # [15:55] <Stevef> but how is it being done again...
  235. # [15:55] <@davidb> Stevef: I do wonder… while looking in this area… any discussion about <main> in context of outline lag?
  236. # [15:55] <@davidb> lag/alg
  237. # [15:56] <Stevef> not a lot i have specced it as not affecting the oultine alg and no major pushback o n that
  238. # [15:56] <@davidb> i wonder...
  239. # [15:56] <@davidb> i guess that makes sense
  240. # [15:57] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  241. # [15:58] <@davidb> There is also the discussion about 'misuse'
  242. # [15:58] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@2F316CF2.6465CCD9.79933D60.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  243. # [15:58] <@davidb> So trying to guess how authors will misuse and the use of the element in the misuse case is…. interesting...
  244. # [15:59] * Quits: ehsan (ehsan@576FC5E5.CD1D2BB8.DC1243F8.IP) (Input/output error)
  245. # [16:01] <Stevef> well looking at the use of div with id values represneting main content the correct usage is high, i think that is due to the concept being simple to grasp
  246. # [16:01] <@davidb> i saw that
  247. # [16:01] <@davidb> but then silvia blogged
  248. # [16:02] * Joins: nhirata (anonymous@moz-BE33DA21.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  249. # [16:03] <@davidb> I agree with this "I think that the <main> element becomes particularly useful when combined with a default keyboard shortcut in browsers as proposed by Steve"
  250. # [16:03] <Stevef> right and that came from you who put the idea in my head
  251. # [16:03] <@davidb> I don't care where it came from.
  252. # [16:04] <Stevef> also previouys discussions we have had about getting landmarks exposed forkeyboard users
  253. # [16:04] <@davidb> yep
  254. # [16:04] <@davidb> rich wanted a keyboard shortcut for role=main
  255. # [16:04] <@tbsaunde> davidb: but why is that better than a key that does a huristic? aside from argument if huristic is more effective?
  256. # [16:04] <@davidb> tbsaunde: it isn't, if the heuristic is as effective
  257. # [16:04] <Stevef> if there was one landmark to exposeit owuldbe main asit then cover the skip link use case as well as i have pointed out
  258. # [16:05] <@davidb> yes
  259. # [16:06] <@davidb> it is like going to a restaurant… you see appetizers, main course, dessert…. they don't leave out main course because you can deduce it
  260. # [16:07] <@davidb> that's not a good analogy actually hahaa
  261. # [16:07] <fxa90id> :)
  262. # [16:08] <@davidb> Stevef: is there anything new here… to bring to whatwg?
  263. # [16:10] <@davidb> Or to Hixie I guess.
  264. # [16:11] <@davidb> It doesn't feel like a junk element to me… but that's not very scientific I admit.
  265. # [16:20] * Joins: habber (habber@moz-C3B8F2C9.nyc.biz.rr.com)
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  268. # [16:24] <@davidb> I think update of correct <main> usage will not match role=main
  269. # [16:24] <@davidb> I think we'd see more <main> usage.
  270. # [16:26] <Stevef> the concept of a main content area is one most people grasp inclduing developers, looking at usage of <div id-content etc> shows that
  271. # [16:26] <Stevef> look at any wireframe
  272. # [16:26] <Stevef> of a web page
  273. # [16:26] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@21869443.A6295926.9D42CF23.IP)
  274. # [16:26] <Stevef> its not rocket science
  275. # [16:26] <@davidb> yep
  276. # [16:27] <@davidb> agreed
  277. # [16:27] <Stevef> elements like artcicle and section are much more prone to misuse as developers have a hard time knwoing when they should be sued
  278. # [16:27] <@davidb> tbsaunde: are you against <main>?
  279. # [16:28] <@davidb> (noble dissent encouraged!)
  280. # [16:28] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@21869443.A6295926.9D42CF23.IP) (Ping timeout)
  281. # [16:28] <@davidb> Stevef: is there 1 main per document?
  282. # [16:28] <Stevef> kiran kaja from adobe was complaiining the other day about <section> being used seventy time on a page and each time it is announce dby jaws
  283. # [16:28] <Stevef> yes
  284. # [16:28] <@davidb> ok
  285. # [16:28] <@davidb> 70?
  286. # [16:29] <Stevef> Authors MUST NOT include more than one main element in a document.
  287. # [16:29] <Stevef> yes
  288. # [16:29] * Joins: LjW (chatzilla@moz-B0D60168.fw.uk.nomensa.com)
  289. # [16:29] <@davidb> ok got it.
  290. # [16:29] <Stevef> obvsioulsy a case of misuse :-)
  291. # [16:29] <Stevef> but authros treat it as a replacemtn for divs
  292. # [16:30] <@davidb> eeejay is in the mobile space… and he'd like to see <main> … he's thought a lot about gesture nav.
  293. # [16:30] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@B6207739.B0D0881A.79933D60.IP) (Quit: victorporof)
  294. # [16:30] <Stevef> cool
  295. # [16:30] <@davidb> Stevef: i thought they might.
  296. # [16:30] <@davidb> actually i thought precisely that while waiting for a streetcar yesterday
  297. # [16:31] <Stevef> headers and footers are also overused, but not so much
  298. # [16:32] <@davidb> OK I get it… so perhaps the burden is higher based on recent history of problem elements.
  299. # [16:32] <Stevef> chaals talked to web deveopers at a conference in russia last week about <main> and they grokked it its simple
  300. # [16:32] * @davidb nods
  301. # [16:33] <Stevef> what? nobody has taken the misuse of other elements into account in any public domain
  302. # [16:34] <@davidb> ok
  303. # [16:34] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  304. # [16:34] <@davidb> Stevef: ok I think we are asymptoting
  305. # [16:35] <Stevef> meaning?
  306. # [16:35] <@davidb> I'm trying to find new angles but not making much progress :)
  307. # [16:36] <@davidb> I have the feeling you've helped me understand recent history but I haven't offered you too much back… if I get any help figuring out next steps I'll let you know. Will be curious to see the answer on the webkit bug.
  308. # [16:36] <Stevef> hey leonie! got any thoughts on this as an accessiblity professional and user?
  309. # [16:36] <@davidb> Stevef: ?
  310. # [16:37] <Stevef> yeah
  311. # [16:37] <LjW> Think landmarks generally are incredibly useful. Ability to move between areas and also know something about their content makes a big difference.
  312. # [16:37] <@davidb> ohai!
  313. # [16:37] <LjW> Think that main has the added benefit of enabling us (screen reader users) to cut to the chase - move right to the content of the page.
  314. # [16:37] <@tbsaunde> davidb: I guess it was before you showed up, I said I think I more or less agree with Hixie
  315. # [16:37] <@davidb> LjW: I hear that a lot. It is a great thing.
  316. # [16:38] <@davidb> tbsaunde: OK and did you have the same rationale?
  317. # [16:38] <Stevef> LjW: recently put together a jaws script for main :-) http://tink.co.uk/2012/11/jaws-scripts-for-the-html5-main-element/
  318. # [16:38] <@davidb> tbsaunde: == why add an element if it is redundant, and it is redundant.
  319. # [16:39] <@tbsaunde> davidb: yes
  320. # [16:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: and the redundancy is with the scooby doo algorithm?
  321. # [16:39] <@davidb> (the deduction)
  322. # [16:39] <@davidb> tbsaunde: what do you think of silver's blog?
  323. # [16:39] <@davidb> silvia's
  324. # [16:39] <@tbsaunde> davidb: atleast in part
  325. # [16:40] <@davidb> what is the other part?
  326. # [16:41] <@tbsaunde> davidb: did you see the email where Hixie commented on her examples? saying more or less the stuff that wasn't actually main content didn't need to exist in the first place?
  327. # [16:41] <@davidb> I did not. Is it in the blog comments?
  328. # [16:41] <@davidb> oh you said email
  329. # [16:41] <@tbsaunde> davidb: no, in the whatwg thread
  330. # [16:42] <@davidb> Does his email refer to her blog?
  331. # [16:42] <@tbsaunde> I think it was in reply to a email mentioning the blog
  332. # [16:42] <@davidb> ok
  333. # [16:42] <@davidb> darn
  334. # [16:43] <LjW> Curious - wouldn't a deterministic approach to identifying the main content area be more efficient?
  335. # [16:43] <@davidb> Yes.
  336. # [16:43] <@davidb> there is disagreement over accuracy
  337. # [16:44] <@tbsaunde> davidb: its not absolutely clear to me that's true
  338. # [16:44] <@davidb> tbsaunde: which?
  339. # [16:44] <@davidb> efficient?
  340. # [16:44] <@tbsaunde> yes
  341. # [16:44] * @davidb shrugs
  342. # [16:45] <@tbsaunde> davidb: another thing is showing one huristic has common failings isn't really good enough, you want to show any reasonable one will
  343. # [16:45] <@tbsaunde> have more than the amount of miss use
  344. # [16:45] <Stevef> why not use heauristics for other elements like headings?
  345. # [16:45] <Stevef> and nav?
  346. # [16:46] <@tbsaunde> there already part of the web?
  347. # [16:46] <Stevef> the point about the scooby doo algrotihm is it depends on authors marking the rest of the content up correctly = many possible points of failure
  348. # [16:47] <Stevef> <main> provides the most utilty in the simplest way
  349. # [16:48] <LjW> SteveF: Suspect that developers will find it more convenient to use main than to remember to add role=main to a div.
  350. # [16:48] <@davidb> LjW: I think that is true.
  351. # [16:48] <Stevef> tbsaunde: deveoper don't mark up much of that stuff correctly so there should be heuristics to detect in the many cases they don't
  352. # [16:49] <LjW> It's only a small advantage granted, but I'm all in favour of making life easier :)
  353. # [16:50] <@davidb> As someone who helped build ARIA, I think the use of ARIA has the smell of failure… it is necessary due to abuse or deficiency in the native semantics.
  354. # [16:50] * Joins: ehsan (ehsan@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  355. # [16:51] <@tbsaunde> davidb: that's fine, but I tend to think we shouldn't have main as a role either
  356. # [16:51] <@davidb> tbsaunde: oh you.
  357. # [16:51] <@tbsaunde> davidb: anther problem is that I don't like having non main content under <main>
  358. # [16:51] * Quits: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP) (Quit: Justin_o)
  359. # [16:52] <@davidb> inside main or under?
  360. # [16:52] <@tbsaunde> davidb: something like <main>blah <aside>add for garbage</aside> foo</main>
  361. # [16:52] <Stevef> how will heaursitics remedy that...
  362. # [16:53] <LjW> tbsaunde: Having role=main as a navigable landmark makes a huge difference to screen reader users.
  363. # [16:53] <Stevef> thats not an argument against main..
  364. # [16:54] <@tbsaunde> Stevef: if your huristic filters stuff out I don't see how it wouldn't
  365. # [16:55] <@tbsaunde> like if my huristic is mainContent = filter body (fn node => if node is aside return nil else return node)
  366. # [16:55] <Stevef> tbsaunde: if your heauristic filters out aside content it could do it equally well in <main>
  367. # [16:55] <@tbsaunde> but then main has no point
  368. # [16:57] * @tbsaunde -> shower -> office
  369. # [16:59] <Stevef> for your filter right, not no point in general
  370. # [17:01] * Joins: hhillen (hhillen@CD3C1769.7613C420.6D799797.IP)
  371. # [17:02] <@davidb> hey… we have 2 TPG titans in the housee!
  372. # [17:02] <@davidb> -e
  373. # [17:02] * @davidb waves to hhillen
  374. # [17:02] <hhillen> Hi davidb, long time no see!
  375. # [17:04] <@davidb> indeed
  376. # [17:04] <@marcoz> Hi hhillen!
  377. # [17:04] <@davidb> you both going to CSUN?
  378. # [17:04] <@davidb> LjW: you going?
  379. # [17:04] <hhillen> yes, we're going for sure
  380. # [17:05] <@davidb> So tbsaunde needs to understand how <main> is better than findMain()
  381. # [17:05] <@davidb> hhillen: excellent
  382. # [17:10] <hhillen> davidb or marcoz, quick question: is there a reason why Firefox does not remove images with a data URI' src when disabling images in the browser?
  383. # [17:10] <@davidb> Stevef: are there any fiddley bits to the your spec that you think need going over before the webkit patch should be accepted?
  384. # [17:11] <@marcoz> hhillen: No idea tbh.
  385. # [17:11] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@2F316CF2.6465CCD9.79933D60.IP)
  386. # [17:12] <LjW> davidb: Will be at CSUN - presenting with SteveF. You?
  387. # [17:12] <@davidb> hhillen: i wasn't aware
  388. # [17:12] <hhillen> davidb: Should I file a bug with a test case?
  389. # [17:12] <@davidb> LjW: i expect to be there with 5 other mozilla a11y peeps :)
  390. # [17:12] <@davidb> hhillen: sure
  391. # [17:12] <@davidb> please
  392. # [17:12] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  393. # [17:13] <LjW> davidb: Excellent :)
  394. # [17:13] * Quits: victorporof (victorporo@2F316CF2.6465CCD9.79933D60.IP) (Ping timeout)
  395. # [17:14] <@marcoz> LjW: There's no way that you can avoid me at CSUN! *g*
  396. # [17:15] * Joins: victorporof (victorporo@2F316CF2.6465CCD9.79933D60.IP)
  397. # [17:17] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  398. # [17:19] * @marcoz laughs hard at a tweet.
  399. # [17:21] <LjW> marcoz: You'll be there too? Cool :)
  400. # [17:23] <@marcoz> LjW: Yes I'm one of the other five davidb mentioned. :)
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  406. # [17:37] <hhillen> Looks like my data image bug already exists: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331257
  407. # [17:37] <@firebot> Bug 331257 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, data: images show up when 'load images' (Tools->Options->content->checkbox) is disabled
  408. # [17:46] <@davidb> ah cool
  409. # [17:46] <@davidb> hhillen: thanks for checking!
  410. # [17:50] <@marcoz> Wow, and a quite old bug, too!
  411. # [17:50] * Joins: Justin_o (Justin_o@67828CC7.C1A51174.9D42CF23.IP)
  412. # [17:53] <@marcoz> Is off. Long day with a web evangelism blog post on my German blog today.
  413. # [17:53] * Quits: @marcoz (marco.zehe@moz-3A2E9151.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  416. # [17:54] * hhillen_ is now known as hhillen
  417. # [17:59] <@davidb> my nightly is very crashy
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  425. # [18:41] <fxa90id> Im wondering why there is no checkbox for blocking css styles :(
  426. # [18:42] * Bryen is wondering if the rumor is true that all web sites on the internet will be phased out by the end of 2012.
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  430. # [18:44] <fxa90id_> ]:-> I'll add this checkbox
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  433. # [19:01] <eeejay> yoyo
  434. # [19:03] * Quits: nhirata (anonymous@moz-BE33DA21.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Ping timeout)
  435. # [19:05] <@davidb> ma
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  438. # [19:11] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 686479 on bug 815646.
  439. # [19:11] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815646 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Intermittent accessible/states/test_link.html | Doubled event { event type: document load complete,
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  448. # [19:58] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com granted review for attachment 686689 on bug 764367.
  449. # [19:58] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764367 nor, --, ---, Ms2ger, ASSI, Fix build warnings in accessible/
  450. # [20:03] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 814671 from --- to DUPLICATE.
  451. # [20:03] <@firebot> trev.saunders@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 814671 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  452. # [20:03] <@firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=814671 nor, --, ---, jwatt, RESO DUPLICATE, Stop hiding Accessible::GroupPosition
  453. # [20:07] <askalski> hi everyone
  454. # [20:19] <@tbsaunde> askalski: hi
  455. # [20:19] <askalski> tbsaunde, how are you?
  456. # [20:20] <@tbsaunde> askalski: fine
  457. # [20:22] <@davidb> heyo
  458. # [20:23] <askalski> hi davidb!
  459. # [20:24] <@davidb> askalski: hey hey
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  487. # [21:32] <@hub> davidb: did you add to the DOM calendar?
  488. # [21:33] <@davidb> hub: not yet - what did you have in mind?
  489. # [21:33] <@davidb> it is mainly for holidays… since PTO is not really useful
  490. # [21:33] <@davidb> aha!
  491. # [21:33] <@davidb> heheh
  492. # [21:33] <@davidb> good idea
  493. # [21:34] <@hub> I thought it was to notify who was on PTO
  494. # [21:36] <@davidb> yeah
  495. # [21:36] <@davidb> i see yours
  496. # [21:36] <@davidb> i added mine
  497. # [21:46] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  498. # [21:47] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
  499. # [21:58] <eeejay> davidb, did your rib get bruised in combat?
  500. # [21:58] <eeejay> i needed to read your whole twitter feed to deduce that
  501. # [21:59] <eeejay> i hope the other person has it worse
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  503. # [22:31] <@davidb> sorry in meeting… yeah jiu jitsu
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The end :)