/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2015-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:19] * Quits: newtron (newtron@moz-6lh.c31.71.199.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  4. # [00:22] <tbsaunde> smaug: so, there's an interesting trick with IDToHyperText(), if you can't find the the ID that could be fine (think case it has been removed but parent hasn't seen notification yet, but id is present but not a hyper text has to be a bug in the child
  5. # [00:22] <tbsaunde> or a bug in the parent
  6. # [00:24] <smaug> tbsaunde: trick?
  7. # [00:25] <tbsaunde> smaug: well, I guess more with its return value
  8. # [00:25] <tbsaunde> smaug: if it returns null its not right to just return false
  9. # [00:26] <smaug> oh, I didn't change that part
  10. # [00:26] <smaug> I was just wondering the same, why there is return false
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  12. # [00:26] <tbsaunde> smaug: yeah, more my fault, but you made me realize it
  13. # [00:27] <smaug> I wish ipc methods returned some enum value
  14. # [00:27] <smaug> eSUCCEED or eKillChildProcess
  15. # [00:27] <smaug> or some such
  16. # [00:31] <tbsaunde> smaug: yeah, maybe, killing the child of this would be a little silly imo
  17. # [00:32] <tbsaunde> s/of/over/
  18. # [00:33] <joanie> tbsaunde: you happen to know what MaiAtkType139 is? Apparently load_complete is invalid for that type.
  19. # [00:34] * joanie loves console spewage
  20. # [00:34] <tbsaunde> joanie: give me a minute
  21. # [00:36] <tbsaunde> joanie: I think its a random thing implplementing text / hyper text / hyper link
  22. # [00:36] <joanie> huh
  23. # [00:36] <tbsaunde> joanie: my bet is this the thing were we try to send load complete for role=document
  24. # [00:37] <joanie> ohhhh
  25. # [00:37] <joanie> huh
  26. # [00:37] <joanie> lemme see if I can find it. It's a dojo test
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  29. # [00:57] <smaug> tbsaunde: what is ia2
  30. # [00:58] <smaug> apparently I'm working on stuff used only there and in MainInterfaceText
  31. # [00:58] <smaug> oh, maybe not
  32. # [01:00] <smaug> AccessiblePivot seems to use it
  33. # [01:00] <smaug> (no idea what AccessiblePivot is :) )
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  81. # [15:07] <&MarcoZ> Hi!
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  84. # [15:08] <~davidb> heyo
  85. # [15:14] <&MarcoZ> Heyo davidb!
  86. # [15:15] <~davidb> hi hi
  87. # [15:15] <~davidb> MarcoZ, I PMed ya about an admin detail
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  90. # [15:40] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1132134 from --- to FIXED.
  91. # [15:40] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1132134 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  92. # [15:40] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com set status-firefox38 to fixed on bug 1132134.
  93. # [15:40] <@firebot> cbook@mozilla.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1132134 from --- to mozilla38.
  94. # [15:40] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132134 — FIXED, bugs@pettay.fi — Get Accessible value from the child process
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  101. # [16:15] <smaug> tbsaunde: why we want the setup where AccessibleWrap.cpp needs to explicitly check for ipc proxy stuff? Why not move the check to Accessible?
  102. # [16:36] <tbsaunde> smaug: how would you make that work?
  103. # [16:37] <smaug> not quite sure :)
  104. # [16:38] <smaug> tbsaunde: Accessible object would have a pointer to the proxy
  105. # [16:38] <smaug> tbsaunde: so either mContent or mProxy would be non-null
  106. # [16:39] <tbsaunde> smaug: that'd burn a lot of memory, sizeof(Accessible is 136 or so in 64bit
  107. # [16:39] <tbsaunde> and say for even small web pages you'll have a bunch
  108. # [16:40] <smaug> but would in theory make the implementation a lot simpler
  109. # [16:40] <smaug> no need to hack each backend
  110. # [16:40] <tbsaunde> you'd also need to figure out something for methods only available on subclasses
  111. # [16:41] <smaug> the proxy would be just called there
  112. # [16:41] <tbsaunde> e.g. there are methods only available on documents, and others only on tables
  113. # [16:42] <smaug> there would be FooAccessible objects on parent side
  114. # [16:43] <tbsaunde> and you'd have them implement all interfaces and require everything to be virtual? that might work
  115. # [16:44] <smaug> everything to be virtual?
  116. # [16:44] <smaug> hmm
  117. # [16:44] <smaug> don't know where that virtual-ness comes
  118. # [16:44] <smaug> basically just have similar Accessible trees on parent and child
  119. # [16:45] <smaug> and on parent side the implementation would have a pointer to the proxy
  120. # [16:46] <tbsaunde> smaug: then I'm not sure I see how you deal with interfaces
  121. # [16:48] <tbsaunde> I'm sure you could in theory make this work, but its seems to me at least for now hacking up ia2AccessibleFoo.cpp and nsMaiInterfaceFoo.cpp is easier
  122. # [16:48] <smaug> tbsaunde: say for AccessibleText stuff we have HyperTextAccessible object
  123. # [16:48] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  124. # [16:48] <smaug> that type of object would be created both sides
  125. # [16:48] <smaug> whether or not there is something virtual doesn't matter
  126. # [16:49] <smaug> if it is virtual now, it would stay virtual
  127. # [16:49] <smaug> perhaps I'm missing what you mean
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  129. # [16:49] <tbsaunde> smaug: true, but now you need to figure out what other stuff gets over riden from Accessible and make sure that's handled properly
  130. # [16:49] <smaug> tbsaunde: it would be handled in the HyperTextAccessible implementation
  131. # [16:50] <smaug> but sure, one would need to go through what all is overridden
  132. # [16:50] <smaug> but all this stuff requires going through all the cases anyway
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  134. # [16:53] <smaug> tbsaunde: the current setup is risky for inconsistent behavior too. If I read the code correctly, atk case handles a11y attributes differently depending on e10s or not
  135. # [16:53] <tbsaunde> smaug: I suspect its easier to go through the cases this way though since basically you can just go through {ia2/,atk/,mac/}*.cpp
  136. # [16:54] <smaug> tbsaunde: because in non-e10s case there is a special case for states::HASPOPUP
  137. # [16:54] <tbsaunde> smaug: hm? I don't think it does, but convince me I miss something
  138. # [16:54] <smaug> and "haspopup" string is added to the attribute set explicitly
  139. # [16:57] <tbsaunde> smaug: opps yeah, though I think that's just as much a bug in the way that code is written
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  143. # [16:58] <tbsaunde> if you create Accessibles in the parent you also probably need to hide them on android / b2g so they don't screw up jsat
  144. # [16:58] <tbsaunde> which is doable, certainly
  145. # [16:58] <smaug> right
  146. # [16:59] <smaug> tbsaunde: I'm just hoping we could reduce the number of platform specific changes
  147. # [16:59] <tbsaunde> I'm not going to argue its a great design, but I think I'd rather hold off on refactoring until stuff works
  148. # [16:59] <smaug> feel free to convince this is a bad idea :)
  149. # [16:59] <smaug> tbsaunde: ok
  150. # [17:00] <smaug> tbsaunde: btw, I wonder in which order stuff should be added to proxy
  151. # [17:00] <smaug> should I focus on the stuff atk uses?
  152. # [17:00] <tbsaunde> I'd really like to see ProxyAccessible get unified into Accessible inheritance somehow
  153. # [17:00] <smaug> since atk seems to use only a subset
  154. # [17:00] <tbsaunde> each thing uses a subset
  155. # [17:00] <smaug> or perhaps I'll keep just converting everything
  156. # [17:00] <tbsaunde> but ia2 and atk should be fairly similar
  157. # [17:01] <smaug> and we platforms are then mapped to use proxy separately
  158. # [17:02] <tbsaunde> smaug: I'm not going to object if you come up with a great design, I just think its tricky and there's decent reason to care about memory usage at a first aproximation you get an accessible per element + text node
  159. # [17:05] * tbsaunde needs to show + run to office
  160. # [17:06] <smaug> ok, I'm not familiar with the issues in memory usage in a11y
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  163. # [17:15] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1132485 filed by bugs@pettay.fi.
  164. # [17:15] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132485 — NEW, bugs@pettay.fi — IPC proxy for GetText*Offset
  165. # [17:15] <smaug> surkov: curious, are you ok reviewing e10s+a11y patches
  166. # [17:15] <smaug> or should I ask tbsaunde
  167. # [17:16] <@surkov> smaug: I think tbsaune is right choise as reviwer since he did most of work there while I didn’t look into it for a while
  168. # [17:17] <smaug> ok
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  173. # [17:51] <~davidb> tbsaunde, going to the e10s meeting in 9 mins?
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  192. # [19:28] * agibson is now known as agibson|afk
  193. # [19:28] <tbsaunde> joanie: so, in those slider examplers where your choosing between options how is the text value you are on present other than as the text content of the element?
  194. # [19:28] <joanie> tbsaunde: in a call
  195. # [19:29] <tbsaunde> k
  196. # [19:29] <@firebot> New Firefox - Keyboard Navigation bug 1132543 filed by beneficentone@gmail.com.
  197. # [19:29] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132543 — UNCONFIRMED, nobody@mozilla.org — Add shortcut to set focus to current tab
  198. # [19:36] <joanie> tbsaunde: still in the call, but I think it implements AtkValue and because the old ATK doesn't have text as an option, it's exposed as an object attribute. Ultimately, that should be exposed via the latest AtkValue.
  199. # [19:37] <joanie> so it's exposed and not via AtkText
  200. # [19:39] <tbsaunde> joanie: hm ok
  201. # [19:40] <tbsaunde> on one hand I worry about use cases like web devs who want to know the formating of that text
  202. # [19:41] <tbsaunde> and I feel like presenting that text is kind of too policyish to be in firefox
  203. # [19:41] <tbsaunde> but on the ohter hand its obviously silly to do work when nobody will benefit
  204. # [19:42] <tbsaunde> and people will be unhappy with you for doing it
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  209. # [20:06] <joanie> tbsaunde: yeah, we can never ever win.
  210. # [20:08] <tbsaunde> joanie: its too bad we need to care about perf
  211. # [20:09] <joanie> yeah
  212. # [20:09] <tbsaunde> otherwise I'd say we really should have those things implement AtkText
  213. # [20:09] <tbsaunde> because you know that's what they are on screen
  214. # [20:10] <joanie> maybe the displayed labels -- which might. I'd have to look.
  215. # [20:10] <joanie> The objects functioning as the slider, however, no
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  217. # [20:11] <tbsaunde> joanie: isn't it the same object?
  218. # [20:11] <joanie> lemme look
  219. # [20:13] <joanie> ah maybe
  220. # [20:13] <joanie> I cannot highlight the text with a mouse
  221. # [20:13] * joanie launches accerciser
  222. # [20:14] <tbsaunde> that suprises me, they're just say setting input.value I assume
  223. # [20:14] <tbsaunde> though this probably all depends on which exact implementation of the slider you choose
  224. # [20:14] <joanie> lemme get some more details first. then I'll explain.
  225. # [20:16] <joanie> so the terrible, bad, decent, good, and excellent are exposed (this saddens me) as paragraph children of a list
  226. # [20:16] <joanie> the first child of the list is a list item
  227. # [20:16] <joanie> the five siblings of the list item have role paragraph
  228. # [20:16] <joanie> a list should not have as its immediate children, paragraphs.
  229. # [20:17] <tbsaunde> I'll agree with that
  230. # [20:17] <joanie> having said that, those paragraphs do implement atktext
  231. # [20:17] <joanie> the list is a sibling of the slider
  232. # [20:17] <tbsaunde> of course if you do <div role=list><p>hello</p></div>
  233. # [20:17] <joanie> not descendant from the slider
  234. # [20:17] <joanie> if you do that then you suck
  235. # [20:17] * joanie smiles
  236. # [20:18] <joanie> anyhoo, in answer to your original question (as I understood it)
  237. # [20:18] <tbsaunde> joanie: sure
  238. # [20:18] <joanie> the text that is displayed does indeed implement atktext
  239. # [20:18] <joanie> and is not part of the slider
  240. # [20:18] <tbsaunde> oic
  241. # [20:18] * joanie shrugs
  242. # [20:19] <tbsaunde> have I mentioned lately how much I dislike ARIA compared to you know fixing html
  243. # [20:19] <joanie> I would agree
  244. # [20:19] <joanie> well, I don't dislike ARIA
  245. # [20:19] <joanie> I dislike designers
  246. # [20:19] <joanie> if the designers would make HTML have lovely awesome widgets of beauty
  247. # [20:20] <joanie> you and I could fight about other things
  248. # [20:20] * joanie smiles
  249. # [20:20] <tbsaunde> yeah, well the designers will just use what they're given
  250. # [20:20] <tbsaunde> which is html + aria stuff instead of giving them stuff in html so they don't need aria
  251. # [20:21] <joanie> right
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  253. # [20:22] <tbsaunde> joanie: anyhow for this thing where the text isn't a child of the slider do you still get text change events on the slider? I'd expect not
  254. # [20:22] <joanie> I think we don't at the AT-SPI2/Orca level
  255. # [20:22] <joanie> but I think they are getting spewed by the slider
  256. # [20:22] <joanie> or something
  257. # [20:22] <joanie> because of the console errors
  258. # [20:23] <joanie> in other words, I think you're firing the signals
  259. # [20:23] <joanie> which is work you do not have to be doing
  260. # [20:23] <joanie> unless it's more work to figuring out you don't have to be doing it
  261. # [20:23] <tbsaunde> joanie: yeah, I guess I should separate out test cases, and see exactly which sliders do and don't
  262. # [20:24] <joanie> and later I can probably help you figure out what the trigger is
  263. # [20:24] <joanie> right now I cannot, however. I just see the spewage and pass it along ;)
  264. # [20:25] <tbsaunde> joanie: yeah, I can sit down and figure out which sliders do and don't fiarly easily I think
  265. # [20:25] * Quits: yliao (yliao@moz-2hf62a.HINET-IP.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  266. # [20:27] * agibson|afk is now known as agibson
  267. # [20:30] <smaug> tbsaunde: you mean why I didn't change nsMaiInterfaceText.cpp?
  268. # [20:30] <smaug> because ... I missed that :)
  269. # [20:33] <tbsaunde> smaug: yeah, no worries
  270. # [20:35] * Joins: clown (clown@moz-v6m.c3o.211.205.IP)
  271. # [20:41] <@yzen_> eeejay hi
  272. # [20:41] <@eeejay> yzen_: yo
  273. # [20:42] <@yzen_> eeejay has any one of the apps have an issue of the footer being in front of the main content in the markup ?
  274. # [20:42] <@yzen_> eeejay the media ones that you've touched
  275. # [20:43] <@eeejay> yzen_: yeah gallery
  276. # [20:43] <@yzen_> eeejay did you end up re ordering the markup ?
  277. # [20:44] <@eeejay> yzen_: bug 1068973
  278. # [20:44] <@eeejay> yzen_: yes
  279. # [20:44] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1068973 — FIXED, eitan@monotonous.org — Footer appears before thumbnails in markup
  280. # [20:44] <@eeejay> its a headache for sure
  281. # [20:46] * Gijs_away is now known as Gijs
  282. # [20:47] <@yzen_> eeejay cool thanks
  283. # [20:47] <@eeejay> yzen_: you see this in the video app?
  284. # [20:47] <@yzen_> yeah, multiple modes with their headers and footers
  285. # [20:48] <@eeejay> same in gallery
  286. # [20:48] <@eeejay> might even be copied
  287. # [20:50] * icaaq|afk is now known as icaaq
  288. # [20:54] <@yzen_> eeejay it's actually almost identical :)
  289. # [21:00] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  290. # [21:02] * Joins: surkov (surkov@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  291. # [21:02] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  292. # [21:07] <tbsaunde> smaug: when you propose hidding proxies behind Accessible interface you should also consider things like ia2Accessible::get_relation which would cause several more sync IPC messages your way
  293. # [21:10] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-vect2u.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Blah blah blah)
  294. # [21:11] <smaug> right
  295. # [21:13] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  296. # [21:25] * agibson is now known as agibson|afk
  297. # [21:27] * icaaq|afk is now known as icaaq
  298. # [21:42] * agibson|afk is now known as agibson
  299. # [21:48] * icaaq is now known as icaaq|afk
  300. # [21:53] <@firebot> bugs@pettay.fi changed the Assignee on bug 1132223 from nobody@mozilla.org to bugs@pettay.fi.
  301. # [21:53] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132223 — NEW, bugs@pettay.fi — Add IdToAccessible and IdToHyperTextAccessible to DocAccessibleChild to reduce code duplication
  302. # [21:57] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-vect2u.dsl.bell.ca)
  303. # [21:57] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  304. # [22:14] * Joins: yzen (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  305. # [22:14] * ChanServ sets mode: +o yzen
  306. # [22:16] * Quits: @yzen_ (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  307. # [22:25] <~davidb> surkov, did you join an ARIA call today?
  308. # [22:26] <@surkov> I was there
  309. # [22:26] <~davidb> cool. useful?
  310. # [22:26] <@surkov> that was interesting
  311. # [22:27] <@surkov> I listened sort of in background
  312. # [22:27] <@surkov> so I didn’t follow whole discussion
  313. # [22:28] * ~davidb nods
  314. # [22:28] <@surkov> davidb: where the news come from?
  315. # [22:28] <~davidb> saw the log email in my inbox
  316. # [22:28] <@surkov> I see
  317. # [22:28] <~davidb> log/draft minutes
  318. # [22:35] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Client exited)
  319. # [22:40] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  320. # [22:44] * Parts: clown (clown@moz-v6m.c3o.211.205.IP)
  321. # [22:47] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1132668 filed by jdiggs@igalia.com.
  322. # [22:47] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1132668 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Incorrect name calculation(?) for cells in ARIA grid
  323. # [22:47] <joanie> hmmm no surkov.
  324. # [22:47] <joanie> The bug I just filed is pretty bad
  325. # [22:59] * Quits: agibson (agibson@moz-j04gi9.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: )
  326. # [23:14] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  327. # [23:15] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-vect2u.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Blah blah blah)
  328. # [23:15] * Quits: anvk (anovak@moz-871.mvk.11.204.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  329. # [23:21] * Joins: yliao (yliao@moz-2hf62a.HINET-IP.hinet.net)
  330. # [23:24] * Quits: jongund (chatzilla@moz-emft4q.dres.uiuc.edu) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150122214805])
  331. # [23:25] * Quits: yliao (yliao@moz-2hf62a.HINET-IP.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  332. # [23:32] * yzen is now known as yzen_
  333. # [23:36] * Quits: @yzen_ (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  334. # [23:58] * Quits: Gijs (chatzilla@moz-7ep.e16.80.5.IP) (Quit: sleep)
  335. # Session Close: Fri Feb 13 00:00:00 2015

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