/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2015-05-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 28 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  64. # [14:11] <@firebot> dao@mozilla.com cancelled needinfo?(dao@mozilla.com) on bug 287743.
  65. # [14:11] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/287743 — REOPENED, marvelous82@gmail.com — Firefox "back" and "forward" toolbar submenus not keyboard accessible
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  68. # [14:41] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1169238 filed by jamie@nvaccess.org.
  69. # [14:41] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1169238 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — When one table cell has selected text, other cells incorrectly report selection
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  76. # [15:35] <@tbsaunde> lsocks: log http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/try-builds/trev.saunders@gmail.com-6393c6d113a9/try-macosx64-debug/try_snowleopard-debug_test-mochitest-other-bm108-tests1-macosx-build1447.txt.gz
  77. # [15:35] <@tbsaunde> and here's the treeherder link https://treeherder.mozilla.org/#/jobs?repo=try&revision=6393c6d113a9
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  80. # [15:37] <~davidb> heyo
  81. # [15:40] <@tbsaunde> heya
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  84. # [15:44] <~davidb> hi hi
  85. # [15:44] <~davidb> big crowd of kids in the common room
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  87. # [15:48] * @tbsaunde is trying to remember how to install kernels
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  89. # [16:02] <&MarcoZ> Hi lsocks, davidb, tbsaunde! :)
  90. # [16:02] <~davidb> hi hi hi hi
  91. # [16:03] <@lsocks> hello
  92. # [16:06] <&MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Is e10s no longer turned off on Windows for accessibility clients such as NVDA? I just did a new install in a Windows VM and was not prompted that e10s had been disabled due to accessibility. And I definitely had NVDA running.
  93. # [16:07] <~davidb> possibly related - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1163004#c7
  94. # [16:07] <@firebot> Bug 1163004 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Windows 10 instantiates accessibility
  95. # [16:08] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Possibly, I had this in both a Win10 TP VM and one VM running Windows 8.1.
  96. # [16:09] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: I think e10s should be disabled, but I think they flipped prefs around a couple days ago and something weird may have happened
  97. # [16:10] <&MarcoZ> tbsaunde: Understood! There are also two e10s disabled due to a11y prefs now.
  98. # [16:11] <~davidb> sounds like a bug
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  100. # [16:17] <@tbsaunde> MarcoZ: yeah seems buggy
  101. # [16:22] <~davidb> tbsaunde, lsocks, tada https://wiki.mozilla.org/WeeklyUpdates/2015-06-01#Introducing_New_Interns
  102. # [16:28] * @tbsaunde goes to file a kernel bug
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  125. # [18:58] <@tbsaunde> joanie: so, my debugger works now, but I'm not seeing anything other than the google combobox / button and the document geting focus
  126. # [18:59] <joanie> tbsaunde: in a meeting, but should be out soon
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  137. # [19:47] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  138. # [20:04] <joanie> surkov: ping
  139. # [20:05] <@surkov> joanie: pong
  140. # [20:05] <joanie> hey, quick question
  141. # [20:05] <@surkov> sure
  142. # [20:05] <joanie> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1592
  143. # [20:05] <joanie> want to verify this is an editorial change
  144. # [20:05] <joanie> as described in the second note
  145. # [20:06] <@surkov> iirc we have processing invalid values, so mixed value shouldbe treated as invalid value by the browser
  146. # [20:07] <joanie> I don't follow you
  147. # [20:07] <@surkov> so not sure it that means false
  148. # [20:07] <@surkov> I mean aria-checked=“mixed” on switch role should be treated same was aria-checked=“hello”
  149. # [20:07] <joanie> Aha
  150. # [20:08] <joanie> But that's not what goes in the ARIA spec
  151. # [20:08] <joanie> as you yourself stated
  152. # [20:08] <joanie> "UAIG will handle the rest"
  153. # [20:08] <joanie> right?
  154. # [20:09] <@surkov> technically I’m not sure where user errors should live in but UAIG is probably right place
  155. # [20:09] <joanie> ok
  156. # [20:09] <joanie> so I'm back to my original question :)
  157. # [20:09] <joanie> because this action is against and about the text in the ARIA spec
  158. # [20:10] <joanie> I would like to fix it for you :)
  159. # [20:10] <joanie> is the string substitution in the notes correct?
  160. # [20:10] <joanie> if not, then I need more specific text from you
  161. # [20:11] <@surkov> where notes are?
  162. # [20:11] <joanie> in the action
  163. # [20:11] <joanie> s/notes/comments/
  164. # [20:12] <joanie> though tracker calls them "Related notes"
  165. # [20:12] <joanie> There's one by me dated today which says "I will check with Alex....."
  166. # [20:12] <@surkov> oh, I would say that “a mixed value is an author error”
  167. # [20:12] <@surkov> would that work?
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  169. # [20:13] <joanie> So Authors MUST NOT set the value of aria-checked to "mixed"
  170. # [20:13] <@surkov> yes, if that’s more specy
  171. # [20:13] <joanie> :)
  172. # [20:13] <joanie> clown: ^^
  173. # [20:14] <clown> joanie, surkov, personally I have no problem with that, but...
  174. # [20:14] <clown> generally not a good idea to put author MUST NOT in spec, since it can't be tested.
  175. # [20:14] <joanie> this can be tested
  176. # [20:15] <clown> how do you test whether an author did the required thing?
  177. # [20:15] <joanie> you test that they did not set aria-checked to "mixed"
  178. # [20:15] <joanie> that is testable
  179. # [20:15] <joanie> 20:14:23 <@surkov> oh, I would say that “a mixed value is an author error”
  180. # [20:15] <joanie> clown: was what he proposed right before you came in
  181. # [20:16] <joanie> sorry for the CET
  182. # [20:16] <clown> I agree it's an author error, and you can test how the browser recovers from it.
  183. # [20:16] <joanie> I just want to make the editorial change
  184. # [20:16] <clown> author testing is typically done by checking tools.
  185. # [20:16] <joanie> and I guess this is the wrong channel
  186. # [20:16] <joanie> I thought it was quick
  187. # [20:16] <clown> You'll have to pass that kind of wording past rich and michael at least.
  188. # [20:17] <clown> Generally, they do not want author normative statements in the spec.
  189. # [20:19] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  190. # [20:19] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Quit: Blah blah blah)
  191. # [20:22] <@tbsaunde> clown: imho its crazy aria specifies what happens when there is an author error
  192. # [20:23] <clown> okay, tbsaunde, how does one achieve interoperability then?
  193. # [20:23] <@tbsaunde> clown: there is no such thing as interobility for errors
  194. # [20:24] <@tbsaunde> clown: I mean if its an error and authors may not do it I see no point in it being interoperable
  195. # [20:25] <clown> tbsaunde, if a widget does not support a state, and the author erroneously gives it that state, what state does it actually have?
  196. # [20:25] <joanie> and now the discussion is back here (we moved it to the aria channel on the w3c)
  197. # [20:26] <@tbsaunde> clown: unspecified
  198. # [20:27] <@tbsaunde> if you define it you might as well then just say the widget does support the state
  199. # [20:27] <clown> tbsaude, then that (unspecified) is the state that is exposed, and presumably documented in the spec.
  200. # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> clown: no, I'm saying an implementation is free to do whatever it pleases with author errors
  201. # [20:29] <clown> and I'm saying if you allow that, then browser A will do one thing, and browser B will do another, and you have a problem with interoperability.
  202. # [20:29] <@tbsaunde> clown: only when authors write things the spec says they can't
  203. # [20:30] <@tbsaunde> which imo is fine
  204. # [20:30] <@tbsaunde> now if you want to just spec everything and say there is no such thing as an author error fine
  205. # [20:30] <@tbsaunde> that's kind of silly but its at least sensible
  206. # [20:31] <@tbsaunde> but saying this is an error you can't do it, but if you do do it here is what happens is crazy
  207. # [20:32] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1169376 filed by tbsaunde+mozbugs@tbsaunde.org.
  208. # [20:32] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1169376 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Allow getting the OuterDocAccessible for the tab's top level document
  209. # [20:32] <clown> tbsaunde, call me crazy then.
  210. # [20:32] <@tbsaunde> ok ;)
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  212. # [20:44] <@tbsaunde> joanie: so I'm wondering if maybe the defunct object you are seeing is the document, but in one case you check ifs the document first and in another just see its defunct somehow
  213. # [20:44] * joanie does a mental gear shift
  214. # [20:46] <joanie> tbsaunde: actually, I think it's invalid
  215. # [20:46] <joanie> but I have to re-read your debug.out
  216. # [20:46] <joanie> but I thought that at first it seemed defunct, but with additional debugging logging it at the moment we get the signal
  217. # [20:46] <joanie> it was not defunct, but invalid
  218. # [20:46] * joanie looks
  219. # [20:47] <@tbsaunde> joanie: hrm interesting
  220. # [20:47] <joanie> yeah
  221. # [20:47] <joanie> so look at your debug2.out
  222. # [20:47] <joanie> search for [invalid
  223. # [20:47] <joanie> (open brace, nothing after the d
  224. # [20:47] <joanie> I don't have line numbers without moving this to an editor
  225. # [20:48] <@tbsaunde> joanie: I thought debug.out was more recent, but I'm tempted to just test again
  226. # [20:48] <joanie> no, check this out
  227. # [20:48] <joanie> because it's something I missed before
  228. # [20:48] <joanie> i'll pastebin it
  229. # [20:48] <joanie> tbsaunde: http://fpaste.org/226651/raw/
  230. # [20:49] <joanie> so the Firefox accessible frame is adding a child
  231. # [20:49] <joanie> at index 1
  232. # [20:49] <joanie> the accessible object at the time of being added is role invalid
  233. # [20:50] <joanie> so could you debug what children are being added
  234. # [20:50] <joanie> and if any of them happen to be bogus?
  235. # [20:50] <@tbsaunde> joanie: then why does it same role=frame below that line?
  236. # [20:50] <joanie> given that it's the frame i'm guessing it's chrome
  237. # [20:51] <joanie> but Orca does two things to get the document frame:
  238. # [20:51] <joanie> starts from the app and looks down
  239. # [20:51] <joanie> starts from the child element and looks up
  240. # [20:52] <joanie> if there's an invalid child between the frame (chrome) and document frame, down clearly won't work
  241. # [20:53] <joanie> tbsaunde: and since you see this problem and I don't, and you said you have a "crazy" setup....
  242. # [20:53] <joanie> how's your Firefox chrome compared to normal folks like me (finger quotes for normal)
  243. # [20:53] <@tbsaunde> joanie: well, my desktop is weird, but I don't think that matters here
  244. # [20:53] <joanie> ok
  245. # [20:53] <joanie> so I can add some more debugging to Orca
  246. # [20:54] <joanie> because the fpaste is from processing the event (as indicated in that text)
  247. # [20:54] <joanie> maybe it wasn't invalid when emitted
  248. # [20:54] * joanie does that
  249. # [20:56] <@tbsaunde> joanie: so to be clear your saying that the object itself is not invalid, but maybe the problem is you can't get from the root down to it?
  250. # [20:56] <joanie> not quite
  251. # [20:56] <@tbsaunde> joanie: because if that is wha you are saying I know one thing that can cause that
  252. # [20:57] <joanie> I'm saying that your debug.out differs from mine, because.... /me shuts up
  253. # [20:57] <joanie> what can cause it?
  254. # [20:57] <@tbsaunde> I don't get the question
  255. # [20:57] <joanie> <@tbsaunde> joanie: because if that is wha you are saying I know one thing that can cause that
  256. # [20:58] <joanie> what one thing can cause it that you know?
  257. # [20:58] <@tbsaunde> I'm confused why the log calls the object invalid when its role is frame and it doesn't have the invalid state
  258. # [20:58] <joanie> tbsaunde: aha
  259. # [20:58] <joanie> there are three details there
  260. # [20:58] <@tbsaunde> joanie: ah, walking down the tree from the root into content doesn't work
  261. # [20:58] <joanie> as you know, different signals have different details
  262. # [20:59] <joanie> what is in the fpaste is a signal for a frame (event source), adding a child at index 1 (first detail),
  263. # [20:59] <joanie> and the child being added is the any_data
  264. # [20:59] <joanie> which is the third argument in parens
  265. # [20:59] <joanie> and the child being added has role invalid
  266. # [21:00] <joanie> so getting back to your experience being different from mine
  267. # [21:00] <joanie> in your experience and debug.out output, Orca doesn't think the elements you're giving focus to are in document content
  268. # [21:00] <joanie> I don't know why
  269. # [21:00] <joanie> I'm trying to figure that out with you
  270. # [21:00] <@tbsaunde> joanie: ok
  271. # [21:00] <joanie> the fact that the firefox application's frame is adding a child which stands between the frame and the child elements
  272. # [21:01] <joanie> and the child at the time of being added has role invalid
  273. # [21:01] <joanie> seems highly suspect to me
  274. # [21:01] <joanie> and is not something I'm seeing
  275. # [21:01] <joanie> so I want to know what the frick that role invalid child firefox is adding
  276. # [21:01] <joanie> :)
  277. # [21:02] <joanie> tbsaunde: make sense?
  278. # [21:02] <@tbsaunde> joanie: yeah, seeing why something gets added with role invalid makes sense now
  279. # [21:02] <joanie> cool
  280. # [21:02] <joanie> so in a sec I'll have more debugging code in Orca
  281. # [21:02] <joanie> so we can see if it's invalid at the time the signal is received
  282. # [21:03] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-k4c0a1.dsl.bell.ca)
  283. # [21:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  284. # [21:04] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  285. # [21:05] <joanie> tbsaunde: ok, please pull master and try again
  286. # [21:07] <@tbsaunde> joanie: first I'm seeing if I can see something created with invalid role then I will
  287. # [21:07] <joanie> k. no hurry
  288. # [21:15] <@tbsaunde> joanie: ok new file debug3.out
  289. # [21:15] * joanie looks
  290. # [21:16] <@tbsaunde> joanie: invalid doesn't seem to appear anywehre in it
  291. # [21:16] <joanie> I see that now
  292. # [21:16] <joanie> I wonder what it was
  293. # [21:16] * joanie looks for other signs of badness
  294. # [21:22] <@firebot> New Core - Keyboard: Navigation bug 1169388 filed by nihilhill@gmail.com.
  295. # [21:23] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1169388 — UNCONFIRMED, nobody@mozilla.org — Text inputs prevent access keys from bubbling
  296. # [21:23] <joanie> tbsaunde: I'm still looking, but I don't see even focus-changes from child elements now. Yes for the document frame.
  297. # [21:23] * joanie downloads to grep
  298. # [21:24] <@tbsaunde> joanie: huh, I see some zombie labels but I have no idea why
  299. # [21:24] <joanie> zombie labels might be frome the status bar text changing
  300. # [21:26] <joanie> yeah, grepping for firefox events for role button shows events for restore all crashed tabs
  301. # [21:26] <joanie> and none, back, location
  302. # [21:27] <joanie> and the entries all seem to be from chrome children
  303. # [21:27] <@tbsaunde> W.T.F.
  304. # [21:28] <joanie> tbsaunde: so whereas before we were getting just focus changes but not text-related signals
  305. # [21:28] <joanie> we're getting nothing from document content at all
  306. # [21:28] <joanie> progress?
  307. # [21:28] * joanie smiles tiredly
  308. # [21:28] <joanie> I wonder if it's because of the crashed pages
  309. # [21:29] <joanie> tbsaunde: as much as I really, really, really do not want to do this
  310. # [21:29] <joanie> I'm tempted to build and bisect Firefox myself
  311. # [21:29] <joanie> because I can easily reproduce the bug I filed
  312. # [21:29] <joanie> before I do, can surkov?
  313. # [21:30] <joanie> because I don't have a Gecko dev environment yet
  314. # [21:30] <joanie> and as you know, bisecting web engines bites
  315. # [21:30] <@tbsaunde> joanie: well, you might start by going back a month or something and seeing if this ever worked with e10s
  316. # [21:30] <joanie> with that a11y setting to disable things
  317. # [21:30] <joanie> it used to work
  318. # [21:31] <@tbsaunde> joanie: Imean as I understand things this is only broken if e10s is enabled right?
  319. # [21:31] <joanie> not sure
  320. # [21:31] <joanie> the bug I filed with the two different app names
  321. # [21:31] <joanie> is recent
  322. # [21:32] <joanie> when I then enabled e10s, i could reproduce it earlier
  323. # [21:32] <joanie> so do you want me to go back and figure out when, with e10s enabled the app names were different?
  324. # [21:32] <joanie> or do you want to know what changed on the 24th?
  325. # [21:33] <@tbsaunde> joanie: no, I want to know if you disable e10s with today's nightly do you still see the bug?
  326. # [21:33] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  327. # [21:33] <joanie> I think that setting is gone
  328. # [21:33] <joanie> did it come back?
  329. # [21:34] <joanie> but lemme get today's nightly
  330. # [21:34] <@tbsaunde> joanie: I think there's still an option in edit -> preferences
  331. # [21:34] <joanie> ok, I'll look
  332. # [21:34] * Joins: scottgonzalez (scott_gonza@moz-4em.ucd.76.208.IP)
  333. # [21:34] <joanie> but before when I cleared out my settings to have a vanilla setup
  334. # [21:34] <@tbsaunde> they just make you reset that so often to try and get people to try e10s again after disabling it
  335. # [21:34] <joanie> the settings were gone
  336. # [21:34] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-k4c0a1.dsl.bell.ca) (Connection closed)
  337. # [21:35] <@tbsaunde> joanie: well the default is e10s on
  338. # [21:35] <joanie> right
  339. # [21:35] <joanie> and then I went to set it to off
  340. # [21:35] <joanie> and the settings you asked about with autostart or whatever
  341. # [21:35] <joanie> and disable due to a11y
  342. # [21:36] <joanie> were not present in the about:config
  343. # [21:36] <@tbsaunde> joanie: unst prefs don't show up there
  344. # [21:36] <joanie> really?
  345. # [21:36] <joanie> ok
  346. # [21:36] * Quits: scottgonzalez (scott_gonza@moz-4em.ucd.76.208.IP) (Client exited)
  347. # [21:37] <joanie> lemme get nightly
  348. # [21:37] <joanie> and you can tell me exactly what you'd like me to try
  349. # [21:37] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (scott_gonza@moz-l847ut.clippermagazine.net) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  350. # [21:38] <joanie> tbsaunde: so I'll uncheck 'Enable multi-process Nightly', correct?
  351. # [21:38] <@tbsaunde> joanie: yup
  352. # [21:38] <@tbsaunde> then restart
  353. # [21:38] <@tbsaunde> make sure there's no plugin-container running
  354. # [21:38] <joanie> via ps, right?
  355. # [21:39] <@tbsaunde> joanie: yeah
  356. # [21:39] <joanie> there's not
  357. # [21:39] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-k4c0a1.dsl.bell.ca)
  358. # [21:39] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  359. # [21:39] <@tbsaunde> joanie: then does the event stuff work?
  360. # [21:40] <joanie> dude, so far
  361. # [21:40] <joanie> yay
  362. # [21:40] <@tbsaunde> joanie: ok so its just bugs in e10s then
  363. # [21:41] <joanie> did the setting name change?
  364. # [21:41] * joanie looks
  365. # [21:42] <@tbsaunde> joanie: I think its browser.tabs.remote.autostart.3 or something
  366. # [21:42] <joanie> browser.tabs.remote.autostart.disabled-because-using-a11y;true
  367. # [21:42] * joanie looks for others
  368. # [21:43] <joanie> yeah, there's three, one without a number and two with (.1 and .2)
  369. # [21:44] <joanie> and Orca is working
  370. # [21:44] <joanie> i'll comment on the bug
  371. # [21:47] <@tbsaunde> joanie: yeah
  372. # [21:47] <joanie> i'm wondering if y'all fixed it because my last comment indicates that I had that preference set
  373. # [21:48] <joanie> and could reproduce the bug
  374. # [21:48] <@tbsaunde> doesn't really tell me what's broken in e10s that matters, or why stuff keeps changing around :(
  375. # [21:48] <joanie> we can still try to figure that out
  376. # [21:48] <@tbsaunde> not that I'm aware of
  377. # [21:48] <@tbsaunde> joanie: well, I'm tempted to try and make traversing down into content work
  378. # [21:49] <@tbsaunde> I have going up working localy
  379. # [21:49] <joanie> nice
  380. # [21:49] <joanie> going down, now that I think about it, first checks the frame for the embeds relation
  381. # [21:50] <joanie> so if you can point ATs to the document frame that way, going down shouldn't be needed
  382. # [21:50] <joanie> I think
  383. # [21:51] <@tbsaunde> I doubt that works either atm
  384. # [21:52] <@firebot> jdiggs@igalia.com requested needinfo from vilmar@informal.com.br on bug 1168449.
  385. # [21:52] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1168449 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Regression: Accessible events are being emitted by applications with different names
  386. # [22:14] <@firebot> vilmar@informal.com.br cancelled needinfo?(vilmar@informal.com.br) on bug 1168449.
  387. # [22:14] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1168449 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Regression: Accessible events are being emitted by applications with different names
  388. # [22:18] <@firebot> jdiggs@igalia.com changed the Resolution on bug 1168449 from --- to WORKSFORME.
  389. # [22:18] <@firebot> jdiggs@igalia.com changed the Status on bug 1168449 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  390. # [22:20] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1169408 filed by lorien@lorienhu.com.
  391. # [22:21] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1169408 — NEW, lorien@lorienhu.com — Merge mozButtonAccessible and mozPopupButtonAccessible
  392. # [22:38] * Quits: anvk (anovak@moz-871.mvk.11.204.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  403. # Session Close: Fri May 29 00:00:00 2015

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