/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2015-07-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 02 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
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  18. # [03:13] <@eeejay> Testing..
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  40. # [09:52] <joanie> fredw: ping
  41. # [09:52] <fredw> joanie: hi
  42. # [09:52] <joanie> hey. I just updated all my results on the wiki
  43. # [09:52] <joanie> I have a bunch more test cases (like menclose)
  44. # [09:52] <joanie> any objections to my adding them?
  45. # [09:53] <joanie> it's a lot of items, but I want to be thorough (and also get results from the other screen readers)
  46. # [09:53] <@firebot> mzehe@mozilla.com set status-firefox41 to affected on bug 1178817.
  47. # [09:53] <fredw> joanie: great! So Orca is the first to pass all the tests :-)
  48. # [09:53] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1178817 — FIXED, fred.wang@free.fr — Reliable segfault in mozilla::a11y::HTMLTableRowAccessible::GroupPosition() in Nightly
  49. # [09:53] <fredw> joanie: yes, I think it will be great to add more tests
  50. # [09:53] <joanie> just because I didn't push the changes until just now doesn't mean I wasn't working on this stuff :)
  51. # [09:53] <fredw> feel free to do so
  52. # [09:54] <joanie> thanks
  53. # [09:54] <joanie> I think I've got things done in a way that any changes to the spoken output should be quite easy to make
  54. # [09:54] <joanie> i.e. in Orca
  55. # [09:55] <joanie> and then after that we can talk about all the sad tag and attribute hacks I've done ;)
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  58. # [09:56] <fredw> Yes. I think at least this gives the minimal support. Then we can get feedback from users and refine things.
  59. # [09:56] <fredw> I can help for the French localization if necessary
  60. # [09:56] <joanie> you familiar with the gnome french i18n team?
  61. # [09:57] <joanie> and how localizations in gnome work?
  62. # [09:58] <fredw> no. But I can figure that out
  63. # [09:58] <joanie> executive summary: Even I, the maintainer of my module, cannot commit translations
  64. # [09:58] <joanie> so you can localize it; I cannot accept it
  65. # [09:58] <joanie> so if you do wish to do french (which would be teh awesome), you then need to actually get in touch with the french team
  66. # [09:58] <joanie> or just send an email to the main i18n list
  67. # [09:59] <joanie> and say "I've done this! Please commit it."
  68. # [09:59] <joanie> :)
  69. # [09:59] <joanie> i.e. it's not about the tech; it's about the politics ;)
  70. # [10:07] <fredw> I think the localization process are generally well-documented in open source community, so if I follow the instructions carefully I should not have too much trouble :-) But anyway, there are certainly some French localizers for Orca, so that's probably not needed... Just nice if I want to demo new Orca support to my employer
  71. # [10:07] * joanie nods
  72. # [10:08] <joanie> if you do it and want to contribute it, please do
  73. # [10:08] <joanie> our translators are all volunteers
  74. # [10:38] <fredw> joanie: in test 2 of https://mdn.mozillademos.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/MathML_Project/MathML_Torture_Test$samples/MathML_Torture_Test the "<none/>" superscripts are read by Orca. I think we need such a testcase for Mozilla/MathML_Project/a11y
  75. # [10:38] <joanie> sorry I don't follow
  76. # [10:39] <joanie> if you are saying I got one wrong, please add the test case
  77. # [10:39] <joanie> you do not need to file a bug against orca
  78. # [10:39] <joanie> I'll fix it now
  79. # [10:40] <joanie> btw, to get this committed, etc. I pulled an all-nighter. Old + no sleep = I am dumb
  80. # [10:40] <joanie> ;)
  81. # [10:46] <fredw> sorry, I'm doing other stuff at the same time... for the testcase 2_F_3 Orca reads "presuperscript" and "postsupercript" although they are absent.
  82. # [10:46] <joanie> fredw: ok I'll take a look thanks!
  83. # [10:49] <@firebot> mdeboer@mozilla.com cancelled needinfo?(mdeboer@mozilla.com) on bug 492557.
  84. # [10:49] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/492557 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Create a keyboard shortcut HUD
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  87. # [11:04] <@firebot> fred.wang@free.fr changed the Assignee on bug 1176973 from nobody@mozilla.org to fred.wang@free.fr.
  88. # [11:04] <@firebot> fred.wang@free.fr changed the Status on bug 1176973 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  89. # [11:05] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1176973 — ASSIGNED, fred.wang@free.fr — [NSAccessibility] Expose attribute AXMathLineThickness for fraction bars
  90. # [11:07] <fredw> joanie: I'll now edit the wiki page to add more mmultiscripts tests
  91. # [11:08] <joanie> fredw: ok. I'm fixing the bug now
  92. # [11:10] <joanie> fredw: just committed the fix to Orca
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  94. # [11:20] <fredw> joanie: ok thanks. Will now try to complete the column for MathPlayer & VoiceOver
  95. # [11:25] <joanie> fredw: ok. it looks like I have another bug to fix in your test cases
  96. # [11:25] <joanie> I'll investigate and fix it in orca now
  97. # [11:25] <joanie> s/in your/from your/
  98. # [11:33] <joanie> fredw: just pushed the fix to orca master
  99. # [11:34] <@firebot> bernesb@gmail.com cancelled status-firefox-esr on bug 1143395.
  100. # [11:35] <@firebot> bernesb@gmail.com cancelled status-firefox36 on bug 1143395.
  101. # [11:35] <@firebot> bernesb@gmail.com cancelled status-firefox37 on bug 1143395.
  102. # [11:35] <@firebot> bernesb@gmail.com cancelled status-firefox38 on bug 1143395.
  103. # [11:35] <@firebot> bernesb@gmail.com cancelled status-firefox39 on bug 1143395.
  104. # [11:35] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1143395 — DUPLICATE, nobody@mozilla.org — Right click on Flash object with accessibility active crashes the plugin process
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  106. # [11:38] <joanie> fredw: is it safe for me to add my results for your three new mmultiscripts test cases?
  107. # [11:39] <joanie> (or are you still editing?)
  108. # [11:39] <fredw> joanie: yes, you can. I'm collecting the results for MathPlayer / VoiceOver in a separate text file for now.
  109. # [11:39] <joanie> k thanks!
  110. # [11:41] <fredw> ok for mac it's easy, since menclose is not supported yet :-)
  111. # [11:41] <joanie> heh
  112. # [11:41] <joanie> more red for apple!
  113. # [11:41] <joanie> :)
  114. # [11:42] <joanie> I want to add an mfenced example or two
  115. # [11:42] <joanie> we still need the text exposed via AtkText ideally (e.g. for caret nav)
  116. # [11:42] <joanie> but in terms of the line nav, I've got tag+attribute hacks
  117. # [11:46] <joanie> fredw: another set of test cases I'd like to see -- and which I still need to add support for -- are things like limits versus accents and trying to present integrals and summations in a more user-friendly fashion (if that can reliably be done).
  118. # [11:46] <joanie> for that I'll need guidance
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  125. # [12:31] <fredw> joanie: OK, I've updated the testcase. Orca has the best support, at least for these tests :-)
  126. # [12:31] <fredw> I updated the wiki page I mean
  127. # [12:32] <fredw> joanie: Do you want me to write tests for <mfenced> + "concrete" math examples
  128. # [12:43] <fredw> joanie: I'm going to have lunch. Will come back to this this afternoon
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  130. # [12:47] <joanie> fredw: woohoo re best support :)
  131. # [12:47] <joanie> I'll do a couple mfenced
  132. # [12:47] <joanie> I'd love some "concrete" math examples from you
  133. # [12:47] <joanie> along with the right(tm) answer wrt what Orca should say
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  146. # [13:38] <fredw> joanie: are you still editing the wiki for mfenced. Or can I test with VoiceOver / NVDA?
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  149. # [13:41] <~davidb> heyo
  150. # [13:41] <joanie> fredw: your turn :)
  151. # [13:42] <joanie> yo davidb https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/MathML_Project/a11y
  152. # [13:42] <joanie> fruits of Toronto
  153. # [13:42] <~davidb> wowsa
  154. # [13:42] <joanie> committed it this morning
  155. # [13:43] <joanie> or last night
  156. # [13:43] <joanie> or both
  157. # [13:43] <joanie> more caffeine please
  158. # [13:43] <joanie> now fredw and I are adding test cases, etc.
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  160. # [14:03] <fredw> joanie: results updated
  161. # [14:03] * joanie looks
  162. # [14:04] <joanie> fredw: do you think saying "the set" is a good idea, or is that like saying "power" (i.e. which may or may not be right)?
  163. # [14:05] <fredw> like "power"
  164. # [14:05] <joanie> ok
  165. # [14:05] <fredw> moreover in third case it is probably not right
  166. # [14:06] <joanie> :)
  167. # [14:07] * joanie finds more bugs in Orca's support and goes to fix them
  168. # [14:08] <fredw> joanie: have you tried the torture test with Orca?
  169. # [14:08] <joanie> yes and no.
  170. # [14:08] <joanie> the things where I just found bugs are from that
  171. # [14:08] <joanie> but I pick the ones that look sane first
  172. # [14:09] <joanie> i.e. less about torture and more about things one might see in the wild
  173. # [14:09] <joanie> and with the summations, it looks like the underscripts are absent
  174. # [14:09] <joanie> so I'm going to fix that now
  175. # [14:09] <joanie> saw some other things like that
  176. # [14:10] <joanie> so lemme fix those first :)
  177. # [14:13] <fredw> joanie: OK. I'll go back to AccessFu for now.
  178. # [14:13] <joanie> k
  179. # [14:13] <fredw> joanie: Do you have any opinion on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177765#c13 ?
  180. # [14:13] <@firebot> Bug 1177765 — ASSIGNED, fred.wang@free.fr — Add xmlroles for MathML
  181. # [14:14] <joanie> I want to ask the ARIA task force
  182. # [14:14] <joanie> after I fix the bugs i mentioned, I'll see about writing an email re that
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  190. # [14:58] <joanie> fredw: any objection to my lifting torture tests as-is or would you prefer smaller test cases?
  191. # [14:58] <joanie> I was thinking of including #12
  192. # [14:58] <joanie> now that I fixed the bugs in orca ;)
  193. # [15:00] <fredw> joanie: I think we can include the torture tests as well as more complex / concrete tests at the end of the table.
  194. # [15:00] <joanie> ok
  195. # [15:00] <joanie> i'll add it at the very bottom :)
  196. # [15:01] <&MarcoZ> Heyo all!
  197. # [15:02] <&MarcoZ> fredw: You asked about table navigation yesterday. AccessFu does not yet have any special means to traverse tables other than just swiping through them. iOS has a row by row navigation, but that is not so useful, since it doesn't keep the current column you're on, so you'll always hear the new row. I don't know about any table navigation in TalkBack/Chrome
  198. # [15:02] <&MarcoZ> on Android.
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  200. # [15:03] <fredw> MarcoZ: thanks.
  201. # [15:08] <&MarcoZ> fredw: Any idea about bug 1179483? Is this a result of a recent MathML relations enhancement?
  202. # [15:08] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1179483 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Reliable segfault in mozilla::a11y::HyperTextAccessible::RelationByType() in Nightly
  203. # [15:10] <fredw> MarcoZ: perhaps bug 1176123. I'll need to debug to be sure.
  204. # [15:10] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1176123 — FIXED, fred.wang@free.fr — Add NODE_CHILD_OF/NODE_PARENT_OF relations to mroot
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  206. # [15:19] <sixtyten> how is it that the browser doesn't remember zoom set directly via ZoomManager.enlarge as opposed to zoom set by ctrl-+ ?
  207. # [15:19] <sixtyten> as in, when I leave the tab and go back, the zoom is where it was before
  208. # [15:28] <sixtyten> (before I set it with zoommanager)
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  220. # [16:40] <@firebot> petruta.rasa@softvision.ro changed the Component on bug 1167556 from Search to Keyboard Navigation.
  221. # [16:40] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1167556 — UNCONFIRMED, nobody@mozilla.org — Keyboard shortcuts for search - cumbersome
  222. # [16:42] <@tbsaunde> fredw: fwiw I've seen the RelationByType() crash a couple times please fix it ;)
  223. # [16:45] <joanie> tbsaunde: fredw: I just pinned down the regression date to 06-27
  224. # [16:45] <joanie> i'm trying to see if I can get a more narrow test case
  225. # [16:45] <joanie> then I'll comment on the bug
  226. # [16:47] <fredw> joanie: thanks. tbsaunde: will look into it later
  227. # [16:48] <fredw> joanie: I'll edit the wiki page
  228. # [16:48] <joanie> k
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  230. # [17:28] <fredw> joanie: ok, I've updated the wiki page. Did you find something for the crash?
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  234. # [17:34] <fredw> mmh, probably I didn't understand what surkov asked me in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1176123#c3 ; but removing !HasOwnContent() seemed a bad idea...
  235. # [17:34] <@firebot> Bug 1176123 — FIXED, fred.wang@free.fr — Add NODE_CHILD_OF/NODE_PARENT_OF relations to mroot
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  237. # [17:45] <joanie> fredw: sorry. comcast is out so I have to tether. And I needed to dial into a concall
  238. # [17:45] <joanie> I have narrowed it down to a very simple test case
  239. # [17:45] <joanie> so I shall comment on the bug
  240. # [17:50] <@firebot> fred.wang@free.fr changed the Assignee on bug 1179483 from nobody@mozilla.org to fred.wang@free.fr.
  241. # [17:50] <@firebot> fred.wang@free.fr changed the Status on bug 1179483 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
  242. # [17:50] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1179483 — ASSIGNED, fred.wang@free.fr — Reliable segfault in mozilla::a11y::HyperTextAccessible::RelationByType() in Nightly
  243. # [17:51] <joanie> fredw: that mean you don't need a new listener?
  244. # [17:51] <joanie> I just attached a new test case
  245. # [17:52] <joanie> fredw: given your patch and my new test case, I'm guessing your patch will fix it, but I'm wondering if it's the real fix
  246. # [17:54] <fredw> joanie: I think you need an accessible without DOM content and that uses the HyperTextAccessible class. I'm not familiar enough with the code / a11y to find a testcase.
  247. # [17:54] <joanie> fredw: I attached a crashing test case
  248. # [17:54] <joanie> did you see it?
  249. # [17:55] <fredw> joanie: yes, it does not crash with the patch applied.
  250. # [17:55] <joanie> what I mean is....
  251. # [17:55] <fredw> Did you mean I don't need to run the listener
  252. # [17:55] <joanie> no
  253. # [17:55] <joanie> what I mean is
  254. # [17:56] <joanie> maybe your original mathml change just illustrated a bug which has been around awhile
  255. # [17:56] <joanie> and which will be around still
  256. # [17:56] <joanie> it simply won't be triggered by mathml :)
  257. # [17:56] <joanie> seems like the sanity check is about redirects or loading new URI or whatever
  258. # [17:57] <joanie> i.e. and independent of mathml
  259. # [17:57] <joanie> but I know jacksh*t about Gecko code
  260. # [17:57] * Quits: Funktr0n (funktr0n@moz-ikv.pn1.85.219.IP) (Connection closed)
  261. # [17:57] * Joins: Funktr0n (funktr0n@moz-ikv.pn1.85.219.IP)
  262. # [17:57] <fredw> joanie: the class HyperTextAccessible is not specific to MathML.
  263. # [17:58] <joanie> i know
  264. # [17:58] <fredw> and HyperTextAccessible::RelationByType was added in this bug
  265. # [17:58] <joanie> oh
  266. # [17:58] <joanie> ok
  267. # [17:58] <joanie> never mind then
  268. # [17:58] <joanie> :)
  269. # [17:59] <fredw> the parent class does the HasOwnContent() check, so I copied that. But then I think I misunderstood what surkov asked me in the review comment, when he said I could get read of this verification...
  270. # [18:03] * Quits: ioanachiorean (ioanachiore@moz-q23.52n.2.5.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  271. # [18:05] <fredw> MarcoZ: can you please take a look at the patch for bug 1179483?
  272. # [18:06] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1179483 — ASSIGNED, fred.wang@free.fr — Reliable segfault in mozilla::a11y::HyperTextAccessible::RelationByType() in Nightly
  273. # [18:15] * Quits: sixtyten (quassel@moz-ulpjmu.sentoris.de) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  274. # [18:15] <joanie> fredw: so I'm looking at the wiki. I like "sum from ... to". But is that yet another case of "power"?
  275. # [18:15] <joanie> or if I have the n-ary summation, can I guarantee that from and to are appropriate (assuming I have both)?
  276. # [18:18] <&MarcoZ> fredw: I am actually unsure of both the patch and surkov's original comment you point to above. Maybe it's best to ask him for review on this one. Granted, it may fix the patch, but perhaps the root cause is something else. I don't know enough about that part of the code to be certain. Surkov and tbsaunde know it much better.
  277. # [18:20] * &MarcoZ is off for the evening now.
  278. # [18:23] <fredw> joanie: I guess it is yet another case of "power". It's possible that we have several definitions of "n-ary sum" and that scripts are used as index to distinguish them. (For example I vaguely remember something about two infinite boolean algebras A and B with \sum_A, \prod_A, \sum_B, \prod_B denoted the sup and inf of sets for each of the subalgebra A,B)
  279. # [18:24] <fredw> MarcoZ: OK thanks MarcoZ. Maybe we'll have to wait that surkov comes back to know what he meant
  280. # [18:25] <joanie> fredw: ok. then I'll leave Orca as-is on that one.
  281. # [18:25] <joanie> still I think it would be cool to have some sort of bigger discussion on how to make the screen reader presentation both user friendly and reliable/accurate
  282. # [18:25] <joanie> I'm thinking kids in schools, for instance
  283. # [18:27] <joanie> on a different note, if comcast doesn't unbork itself in the next couple of minutes, I'll have to go afk so I can call into a meeting on my cell (which is currently tethering)
  284. # [18:29] <fredw> joanie: ok. I'm logging off soon anyway
  285. # [18:29] <joanie> ok, thanks for all your help!
  286. # [18:29] <joanie> progress!!
  287. # [18:29] <joanie> :)
  288. # [18:30] <fredw> :-)
  289. # [18:34] * Quits: fredw (Icedove@moz-fv4cpk.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Client exited)
  290. # [19:07] <smaug> davidb: hey, so if you have ideas for a Q3 goal for me, feel free to suggest
  291. # [19:07] <~davidb> ok!
  292. # [19:08] * smaug needs to finalize his Q2 goal first and have some vacation, so, could start sometime in August
  293. # [19:08] <~davidb> smaug, cool, give me a few days and i might start a thread sooner
  294. # [19:08] <smaug> k
  295. # [19:46] * Joins: webatou1 (Thunderbird@moz-eo6.kv1.190.193.IP)
  296. # [19:47] * Quits: webatou (Thunderbird@moz-eo6.kv1.190.193.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  297. # [20:05] <~davidb> smaug, tbsaunde, lsocks, started a thread on e10s work
  298. # [20:05] <~davidb> I think tbsaunde has the ball.
  299. # [20:14] * Quits: webatou1 (Thunderbird@moz-eo6.kv1.190.193.IP) (Client exited)
  300. # [21:16] * Joins: yliao (yliao@moz-2hf62a.HINET-IP.hinet.net)
  301. # [21:20] * Quits: yliao (yliao@moz-2hf62a.HINET-IP.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  302. # [21:35] * wlach is now known as wlach|biab
  303. # [21:50] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  304. # [21:56] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Resolution on bug 1176973 from --- to FIXED.
  305. # [21:56] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 1176973 from ASSIGNED to RESOLVED.
  306. # [21:56] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com set status-firefox42 to fixed on bug 1176973.
  307. # [21:56] <@firebot> ryanvm@gmail.com changed the Target Milestone on bug 1176973 from --- to mozilla42.
  308. # [21:56] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1176973 — FIXED, fred.wang@free.fr — [NSAccessibility] Expose attribute AXMathLineThickness for fraction bars
  309. # [21:58] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  310. # [22:03] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-bkmq0v.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Blah blah blah)
  311. # [22:06] * Joins: satdav (uid15780@moz-avs1e8.highgate.irccloud.com)
  312. # [22:09] * Quits: newtron (newtron@moz-6lh.c31.71.199.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  313. # [22:12] <@lsocks> smaug: maybe I've missed something, but using EventListenerService to listen to listener changes doesn't actually tell me which listeners changed, just the event targets
  314. # [22:12] <@lsocks> smaug: is there any existing API which would give me that info?
  315. # [22:14] <smaug> lsocks: right, you get just information that something has changed
  316. # [22:14] <smaug> that is all
  317. # [22:14] <smaug> we don't have better information right now
  318. # [22:15] <smaug> since no one has asked for anything else
  319. # [22:16] <smaug> lsocks: I guess the callback could get a list of event names which have either new listeners or listeners removed
  320. # [22:16] <smaug> happy to review a patch implementing that ;)
  321. # [22:16] <satdav> do we do any ally tests on thunderbird
  322. # [22:17] <@lsocks> smaug: alright cool, may do that
  323. # [22:18] * Quits: anvk (anovak@moz-871.mvk.11.204.IP) (Quit: Leaving.)
  324. # [22:28] * Quits: Gijs (chatzilla@moz-1evr0l.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: poof!)
  325. # [22:55] * Quits: @yzen (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  326. # Session Close: Fri Jul 03 00:00:00 2015

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