/irc-logs / mozilla / #accessibility / 2015-08-17 / end

Options:

Previous day, Next day

  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 17 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #accessibility
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: kkus (kkus@moz-oqbbml.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  4. # [00:28] * satdav|irccloud is now known as satdav
  5. # [01:14] * Quits: kalli_ (fabian@moz-168eqh.ovh.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  6. # [03:17] * Joins: surkov (surkov@moz-v8g78c.cpe.teksavvy.com)
  7. # [03:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  8. # [03:28] * Quits: satdav (uid15780@moz-sljh5r.tooting.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  9. # [03:33] * st3fan|pto is now known as st3fan
  10. # [03:46] * Quits: AustinMatherne (AustinMathe@moz-0te63r.members.linode.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  11. # [03:47] * Joins: AustinMatherne (AustinMathe@moz-0te63r.members.linode.com)
  12. # [03:47] * Quits: @surkov (surkov@moz-v8g78c.cpe.teksavvy.com) (Client exited)
  13. # [07:22] * Quits: icaaq (icaaq@moz-p2679h.bredband.skanova.com) (Quit: 10-56 Intoxicated pedestrian, over and out)
  14. # [07:27] <@firebot> maxli@maxli.ca changed the Assignee on bug 1182211 from nobody@mozilla.org to maxli@maxli.ca.
  15. # [07:28] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1182211 — NEW, maxli@maxli.ca — [AccessFu][Android] remove highlight (except for word and character mode).
  16. # [07:39] * Joins: icaaq (icaaq@moz-p2679h.bredband.skanova.com)
  17. # [07:42] * Quits: icaaq (icaaq@moz-p2679h.bredband.skanova.com) (Quit: 10-56 Intoxicated pedestrian, over and out)
  18. # [08:18] * Joins: ioanachiorean (ioanachiore@moz-q23.52n.2.5.IP)
  19. # [09:34] * Joins: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-0nbouc.threembb.co.uk)
  20. # [09:42] <@firebot> New Firefox - Keyboard Navigation bug 1195200 filed by sledru@mozilla.com.
  21. # [09:42] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1195200 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — Shortcut behavior changed
  22. # [09:43] <@firebot> sledru@mozilla.com set status-firefox40 to unaffected on bug 1195200.
  23. # [09:43] <@firebot> sledru@mozilla.com set status-firefox42 to affected on bug 1195200.
  24. # [09:45] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-0nbouc.threembb.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  25. # [10:08] * Joins: satdav (uid15780@moz-sljh5r.tooting.irccloud.com)
  26. # [10:27] * Joins: prosodyContext (sid32673@moz-j9fnmk.highgate.irccloud.com)
  27. # [10:57] * Joins: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-ia92ka.threembb.co.uk)
  28. # [11:03] <@firebot> felash@gmail.com set status-firefox41 to affected on bug 1195200.
  29. # [11:03] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1195200 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — [e10s] Pull down menu: Keyboard selection behavior changed
  30. # [11:10] <@firebot> mh+mozilla@glandium.org changed the Resolution on bug 1194998 from --- to DUPLICATE.
  31. # [11:10] <@firebot> mh+mozilla@glandium.org changed the Status on bug 1194998 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  32. # [11:10] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1194998 — DUPLICATE, nobody@mozilla.org — CTRL+K stops working from time to time
  33. # [11:17] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-ia92ka.threembb.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  34. # [11:20] * Joins: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-ka5h7f.threembb.co.uk)
  35. # [11:36] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-ka5h7f.threembb.co.uk) (Connection closed)
  36. # [12:10] * Joins: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-jnsijn.threembb.co.uk)
  37. # [12:22] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-jnsijn.threembb.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  38. # [12:25] * Joins: Tink (chatzilla@moz-jnsijn.threembb.co.uk)
  39. # [12:27] * Tink is now known as LJWatson
  40. # [12:31] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-jnsijn.threembb.co.uk) (Connection closed)
  41. # [12:32] * Joins: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-jnsijn.threembb.co.uk)
  42. # [12:38] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-jnsijn.threembb.co.uk) (Connection closed)
  43. # [13:01] * Joins: Gijs (chatzilla@moz-v0lust.cable.virginm.net)
  44. # [14:22] * Joins: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-fpsi1k.cable.virginm.net)
  45. # [14:41] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  46. # [14:41] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  47. # [14:41] <~davidb> heyoo
  48. # [14:58] <&MarcoZ> Hi davidb!
  49. # [15:10] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-fpsi1k.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: Carpe diem)
  50. # [15:11] * &MarcoZ is again reminded of what an utter mess WAI-ARIA is, and how difficult it is to explain some of its intricacies even to web accessibility specialists.
  51. # [15:11] <&MarcoZ> Want an example? Bug 1189850.
  52. # [15:11] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1189850 — UNCONFIRMED, nobody@mozilla.org — It is not possible to access the values in an ARIA Combo Box
  53. # [15:12] <~davidb> oh i don't need an example
  54. # [15:13] <&MarcoZ> davidb: I am coming to the opinion that defining that ARIA roles should not influence browser behavior for known widget types was probably the biggest mistake made in WAI-ARIA development, aside from aria-hidden.
  55. # [15:14] <&MarcoZ> s/aside/apart/
  56. # [15:14] <~davidb> MarcoZ, i feel like that is html's job... if only more things could be stylable, sigh
  57. # [15:14] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Sorry, shouldn't bother you with something like this on a Monday morning, when I've had a few houlrs leadway to ponder this mess ;)
  58. # [15:14] <~davidb> MarcoZ, bring it :)
  59. # [15:15] <~davidb> my mantra has always been KISS
  60. # [15:15] <~davidb> where we differ might be on ARIA influence on browser behaviour, i'd want a different markup for that
  61. # [15:16] <~davidb> ideally html
  62. # [15:18] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Yeah I guess it all boils down to the fact that sometime, somewhere one had the not brilliant idea that one could be able to attach onclick handlers to semantically dead elements like divs and spans.
  63. # [15:18] <~davidb> but if it has to work across markups, maybe a generic behaviour markup needs to be built
  64. # [15:18] <~davidb> XUL!!! :)
  65. # [15:18] <&MarcoZ> *giggles madly and helplessly*
  66. # [15:19] <~davidb> MarcoZ, well, and before that, not allowing people to style form controls didn't help
  67. # [15:19] <&MarcoZ> davidb: I totally agree here, too.
  68. # [15:20] <~davidb> i think there can be two problem spaces: 1. flexible semantics to describe any Ux, 2. flexible declaritive markup to cause Ux
  69. # [15:20] <~davidb> i think mixing them is peril
  70. # [15:20] <~davidb> and of course #2 would have built in semantics
  71. # [15:20] <~davidb> and right now #2 is html (but not flexible enough)
  72. # [15:21] <&MarcoZ> Yeah the web would probably need a total cold start for that, like throw everything that is there now and start fresh with something completely new as you just described it.
  73. # [15:21] <~davidb> probably yeah
  74. # [15:21] <~davidb> see also js libraries :)
  75. # [15:22] <~davidb> (not just normalizing ones)
  76. # [15:22] <&MarcoZ> Don't get me started...
  77. # [15:22] <~davidb> heh
  78. # [15:27] * Joins: anvk (anovak@moz-871.mvk.11.204.IP)
  79. # [15:50] * Joins: yzen (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  80. # [15:50] * ChanServ sets mode: +o yzen
  81. # [15:52] * Joins: kkus (kkus@moz-oqbbml.fios.verizon.net)
  82. # [15:56] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Meeting in 5 minutes?
  83. # [15:56] <~davidb> yep
  84. # [16:17] * Joins: surkov (surkov@moz-v8g78c.cpe.teksavvy.com)
  85. # [16:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +o surkov
  86. # [16:37] <&MarcoZ> Hi surkov!
  87. # [16:38] <~davidb> MarcoZ, surkov, before you talk about perf...
  88. # [16:38] <~davidb> how much do we need to worry about this comment https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=874167#c31
  89. # [16:38] <@firebot> Bug 874167 — FIXED, jmathies@mozilla.com — Use OOPP for Java on Windows (again), with infinite plugin timeout if the hang UI shows
  90. # [16:41] <&MarcoZ> Java and Windows XP...With JAWS... I'd say we don't need to worry.davidb surkov: ^
  91. # [16:42] <&MarcoZ> JAWS will still cause problems if using OOP, so yeah better keep it disabled. And just hope that this is no longer used in the wild much.
  92. # [16:43] <~davidb> is this about not allowing dll injection?
  93. # [16:43] <~davidb> or about the plugin not running in ff process?
  94. # [16:43] <~davidb> or?
  95. # [16:49] <&MarcoZ> Plugin not running in FF process.
  96. # [16:49] <&MarcoZ> DLL injection is something different.
  97. # [16:58] <~davidb> definitely
  98. # [16:58] <~davidb> ok
  99. # [16:58] <&MarcoZ> surkov: We seem to be having a selective performance problem when focus changes. I am seeing this mostly in the web version of Gmail, where it takes up to a second from pressing tab to NVDA reacting and starting to speak the newly focused item. In Chrome, reaction is almost instant.
  100. # [16:58] <~davidb> surkov thoughts?
  101. # [16:58] * Joins: alex_mayorga (uid4422@moz-lffp2u.ealing.irccloud.com)
  102. # [16:58] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Oops sorry, didn't want to cross topics.
  103. # [16:58] <~davidb> ditto :)
  104. # [16:59] <@surkov> is there perf profile?
  105. # [17:00] <@surkov> davidb: i’m not sure I follow that concern. the issue is oop is disabled when jaws is running?
  106. # [17:01] <~davidb> surkov, i think MarcoZ understands it better than me
  107. # [17:02] <~davidb> (admittedly i'm distracted ATM)
  108. # [17:04] <@tbsaunde> davidb: heya
  109. # [17:04] <~davidb> tbsaunde, hi hi, ready?
  110. # [17:05] <&MarcoZ> surkov: I am not up to speed on how to create such a perf profile.
  111. # [17:05] <@tbsaunde> davidb: sure
  112. # [17:05] <~davidb> omw
  113. # [17:06] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Connection closed)
  114. # [17:07] <@surkov> MarcoZ: it has to be fairly simple, like pressing a button
  115. # [17:11] <&MarcoZ> surkov: ???
  116. # [17:12] <&MarcoZ> surkov: I don't have anything in the Firefox UI that looks like a profiler.
  117. # [17:12] <&MarcoZ> Or says it is one.
  118. # [17:15] <@yzen> MarcoZ hi
  119. # [17:15] <@surkov> MarcoZ: it has to be an extension iirc
  120. # [17:17] <@surkov> MarcoZ: it looks like here is it https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Performance/Profiling_with_the_Built-in_Profiler
  121. # [17:18] <@yzen> MarcoZ question about outline css property. are there specific reasons to draw it on click and tap of an element by default (note not tab to, navigations)?
  122. # [17:18] <@surkov> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Performance/Reporting_a_Performance_Problem
  123. # [17:19] <&MarcoZ> yzen: Yes, I believe so, like giving visually impaired people a clue as to what they're actually focused on. But I am not 100% sure. I know for a fact that this has been the point of many debates in the past, though.
  124. # [17:19] <@yzen> MarcoZ and it matters post action too right ?
  125. # [17:21] * wlach|afk is now known as wlach
  126. # [17:21] <@yzen> MarcoZ also does context matter, e.g. touch enabled screen ?
  127. # [17:21] <&MarcoZ> yzen: Not sure what you mean.
  128. # [17:22] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  129. # [17:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  130. # [17:22] <@yzen> MarcoZ i mean we are discussing now in #gaia wether outline should be drawn when someone taps on a thing in Gaia
  131. # [17:22] <&MarcoZ> In any case, it is the case of focus visibility. So if something receives a click, it also gains keyboard focus, so the outline is correct for both clicking on it and tabbing to it.
  132. # [17:23] <&MarcoZ> yzen: What do other platforms like Android and iOS do, I mean when Talkback or VoiceOver are not running of course.
  133. # [17:24] <@yzen> MarcoZ well this is the problem , we have many ways of doing this thing: :focus, :active, accessfu vc focus, default browser outline
  134. # [17:35] <&MarcoZ> yzen: Yes, this *is* a problem. The general rule of thumb is to do the same for :active as for :focus in CSS, to catch all scenarios (and browser bugs).
  135. # [17:35] <&MarcoZ> Generally, though, if you want to indicate this because of AccessFu, AccessFu should do it. Like VoiceOver draws its VoiceOver cursor rectangle when it's active, but you don't see it when not.
  136. # [17:36] <&MarcoZ> And I believe Zoom and other accessibility features have their own way of showing what's currently active or focused.
  137. # [17:37] <&MarcoZ> surkov: Unfortunately the profiler isn't accessible. It puts a button somewhere in the tool bar, or maybe not, because I didn't find it even though the add-on is active, and this means that I am not fast enough in locating it to actually capture the perf problem before the few recorded seconds have elapsed.
  138. # [17:38] <&MarcoZ> ...and the actual perf has moved out of the threshold.
  139. # [17:38] <@yzen> MarcoZ yeah, the particular issue im having is that i started adding tabindex attribtues to elements and it caused some regressions because outlines would start showing up
  140. # [17:38] <@surkov> MarcoZ: that sucks, it’s worth to file a bug to make it accessible
  141. # [17:39] <@surkov> MarcoZ: do we have a bug for this perf issue?
  142. # [17:40] <@yzen> MarcoZ so people are suggesting removing outline in gecko when elements are tapped on..
  143. # [17:41] <&MarcoZ> surkov: Not yet, I first wanted to see if you can reproduce it, too, or maybe davidb when he has his Windows virtual machine in order again. But I can file it right now.
  144. # [17:42] <~davidb> i've heard of people having problems with gmail properties starting around aug 14
  145. # [17:42] <~davidb> and maybe related to apz-desktop
  146. # [17:42] <&MarcoZ> yzen: Hm yeah, this is tricky. I actually don't know what the best answer is. Again, I would compare this to what Safari on iOS or Chrome on Android do if you tap on something focusable.
  147. # [17:42] <@surkov> MarcoZ: of course I can give a try. Windows machine, release build, NVDA, focus an element?
  148. # [17:43] <@surkov> in gmail
  149. # [17:43] <&MarcoZ> Usually tapping is a very direct means of interaction, much more direct than tabbing around with a keyboard or using a mouse.
  150. # [17:44] <&MarcoZ> surkov: Yes, basically focus on the message list, e. g. press up and down arrows to move through messages, then shift+tab once or twice, then tab forward again. The delay is quite noticeable, like almost up to a second.
  151. # [17:44] <@surkov> ok
  152. # [17:45] <&MarcoZ> davidb: Again, I did the same in Chrome in the same VM, in fact parallel to Firefox being open, and reaction is instantaneous there.
  153. # [17:45] <&MarcoZ> It's also running smoothly with Safari and Chrome + VoiceOver respectively on OS X.
  154. # [17:46] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  155. # [18:39] * Joins: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-49e14n.zen.co.uk)
  156. # [18:43] * Quits: LJWatson (chatzilla@moz-49e14n.zen.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  157. # [18:49] * yzen is now known as yzen_
  158. # [19:08] * Quits: ioanachiorean (ioanachiore@moz-q23.52n.2.5.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  159. # [19:12] * yzen_ is now known as yzen
  160. # [19:12] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  161. # [19:28] * mconley is now known as mconley|brb
  162. # [19:35] <~davidb> i home surkov can profile it
  163. # [19:35] <~davidb> home/hope
  164. # [19:36] * Joins: yzen_ (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  165. # [19:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +o yzen_
  166. # [19:39] * Quits: @yzen (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  167. # [19:40] * Quits: @yzen_ (yzen@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  168. # [19:47] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  169. # [19:55] * Quits: kkus (kkus@moz-oqbbml.fios.verizon.net) (Connection closed)
  170. # [20:03] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  171. # [20:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  172. # [20:06] * Quits: ~davidb|afk (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  173. # [20:11] <@tbsaunde> surkov: you just want checks that the two hide events are present not for some other situation involving 2 hide events right?
  174. # [20:15] <@surkov> tbsaunde: right
  175. # [20:15] <@tbsaunde> surkov: ok thx
  176. # [20:28] * Joins: yzen (yzen@moz-ql1r6k.cpe.pppoe.ca)
  177. # [20:28] * ChanServ sets mode: +o yzen
  178. # [20:51] * Quits: alex_mayorga (uid4422@moz-lffp2u.ealing.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  179. # [21:01] <~davidb> !seen abanks
  180. # [21:01] <@firebot> I've never seen an 'abanks', sorry.
  181. # [21:06] * satdav is now known as satdav|irccloud
  182. # [21:21] * davidb is now known as davidb|afk
  183. # [21:30] * Joins: kkus (kkus@moz-oqbbml.fios.verizon.net)
  184. # [21:35] <@firebot> New Core - Disability Access APIs bug 1195471 filed by tbsaunde+mozbugs@tbsaunde.org.
  185. # [21:35] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1195471 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — make getChildCountCB work with proxies
  186. # [21:39] * mconley|brb is now known as mconley
  187. # [21:45] * davidb|afk is now known as davidb
  188. # [22:01] * Joins: davidb_ (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  189. # [22:01] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb_ davidb_
  190. # [22:02] * Quits: Gijs (chatzilla@moz-v0lust.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: poof)
  191. # [22:03] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
  192. # [22:17] <~davidb_> tbsaunde, what does MOZ_WARN_UNUSED_RESULT mean?
  193. # [22:17] * davidb_ is now known as davidb
  194. # [22:18] <~davidb> you can tell me to go dxr
  195. # [22:20] <@tbsaunde> davidb: get the compiler to complain if you don't use the result
  196. # [22:20] <@tbsaunde> aka what it says on the tin
  197. # [22:20] <~davidb> neato
  198. # [22:27] * Joins: alex_mayorga (uid4422@moz-lffp2u.ealing.irccloud.com)
  199. # [22:28] * Parts: anvk (anovak@moz-871.mvk.11.204.IP)
  200. # [22:29] * Quits: @yzen (yzen@moz-ql1r6k.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Connection closed)
  201. # [22:32] * Joins: yzen (yzen@moz-ql1r6k.cpe.pppoe.ca)
  202. # [22:32] * ChanServ sets mode: +o yzen
  203. # [22:38] <~davidb> tbsaunde, let's get your checkdoctree change in asap
  204. # [22:38] <~davidb> can worry about my other patch after
  205. # [22:41] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com changed the Resolution on bug 1193919 from --- to DUPLICATE.
  206. # [22:41] <@firebot> dbolter@mozilla.com changed the Status on bug 1193919 from NEW to RESOLVED.
  207. # [22:41] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1193919 — DUPLICATE, dbolter@mozilla.com — Don't run CheckDocTree diagnostic on release
  208. # [22:42] <~davidb> or not at all :)
  209. # [22:45] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Connection closed)
  210. # [22:49] * Joins: davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP)
  211. # [22:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo davidb davidb
  212. # [22:56] * Quits: ~davidb (davidb@moz-i5m.05u.207.66.IP) (Quit: Blah blah blah)
  213. # [23:07] <@firebot> New Firefox - Keyboard Navigation bug 1195505 filed by imphil@philipp-wagner.com.
  214. # [23:07] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1195505 — NEW, nobody@mozilla.org — CTRL-K doesn't work if inside awesome bar
  215. # [23:29] * Quits: @yzen (yzen@moz-ql1r6k.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Connection closed)
  216. # [23:54] <@firebot> kohei.yoshino@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 1195457 from Untriaged to Keyboard: Navigation.
  217. # [23:54] <@firebot> kohei.yoshino@gmail.com changed the Product on bug 1195457 from Firefox to Core.
  218. # [23:54] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1195457 — UNCONFIRMED, nobody@mozilla.org — Embed element with tabindex="0" breaks sequential focus navigation
  219. # [23:54] <@firebot> kohei.yoshino@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 1195219 from Untriaged to Keyboard: Navigation.
  220. # [23:55] <@firebot> kohei.yoshino@gmail.com changed the Product on bug 1195219 from Firefox to Core.
  221. # [23:55] <@firebot> https://bugzil.la/1195219 — UNCONFIRMED, nobody@mozilla.org — Tab focus got stuck/ cannot focus on image map area element
  222. # Session Close: Tue Aug 18 00:00:00 2015

Previous day, Next day

Think these logs are useful? Then please donate to show your gratitude (and keep them up, of course). Thanks! — Krijn