/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-05-14 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 14 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #css
# [02:10] * Quits: peterl (peter.lins@15.243.169.72) (Quit: peterl)
# [02:14] <dbaron> Hrm, I should probably have written "For the same reason" instead of "Therefore" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0145.html
# [02:14] <dbaron> since it follows from the premise of the previous sentence rather than the conclusion
# [03:14] <fantasai> dbaron, the two sentences that talk about z-index conflict, since the subject of the second sentence (z-index applies) is a subset of the previous sentence (z-index is zero).
# [03:14] <fantasai> dbaron: maybe add a However at the beginning of the second sentence..
# [03:15] <dbaron> yeah, multiple things to fix there, actually...
# [03:26] <dbaron> new version sent to list
# [03:26] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [03:54] <fantasai> Hey krijnh, your #css logs have the wrong title. :)
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# [07:21] <fantasai> is there a better word than "rootmost" for describing the node of a set that is closest to the root element?
# [07:23] * fantasai rewords the sentence to avoid the issue
# [07:30] <jdaggett> fantasai: is redefining current behavior frowned upon in general?
# [07:30] <jdaggett> i'd like to tweak the meaning of italic
# [07:30] <jdaggett> to mean "use the italic face with no artificial sloping"
# [07:30] <jdaggett> and add "sloped"
# [07:31] <jdaggett> as a way to indicate
# [07:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: redefining existing behavior is discouraged for backwards-compatibility reasons
# [07:31] <jdaggett> hmm, pooh
# [07:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: italic already means "italic face with no artificial sloping"
# [07:31] <jdaggett> heh
# [07:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: it just allows falling back to artificially-sloped fonts
# [07:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think that's important to keep
# [07:32] <jdaggett> ah, ok, i'll buy that
# [07:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: what about 'oblique'? how is that different from 'sloped'?
# [07:32] <jdaggett> oblique is a designers stylistic choice
# [07:33] <fantasai> it's also a value for font-style
# [07:33] <jdaggett> it reflects a font face that is not cursive in nature
# [07:34] <jdaggett> i'm looking for a way to allow "no artificial sloped fonts"
# [07:34] <jdaggett> to be specified
# [07:34] <jdaggett> no-faux?
# [07:34] <fantasai> font-style: true italic?
# [07:34] <jdaggett> yeah, something like that
# [07:34] <jdaggett> syntax ugly though...
# [07:34] <fantasai> that would change font family if there is no italic available?
# [07:35] <jdaggett> would use regular face
# [07:35] <fantasai> hm
# [07:35] <fantasai> what would you use it for?
# [07:35] <jdaggett> cases where designer prefers no italics to fake italics
# [07:36] <fantasai> so font-style: italic-or-normal? :)
# [07:36] <jdaggett> basically
# [07:37] <fantasai> yeah, you'd need a new keyword
# [07:37] <fantasai> it's important to keep the existing behavior here: one major use of italic is to distinguish certain text runs from other text runs
# [07:37] <fantasai> and you totally lose that if we get snobby about italics
# [07:37] <fantasai> for heading styles, yeah, I can see wanting italic-or-normal
# [07:38] <fantasai> but I think that's not the major case, and someone should be very aware that what they're doing can result in a normal, rather than italic, font being used
# [07:38] <fantasai> i.e. the fallback behavior here needs to be blazingly obvious from the syntax
# [07:39] <jdaggett> yeah
# [07:40] <jdaggett> fallback makes this completely non-obvious
# [07:40] <fantasai> note that downloadable fonts would make this much less useful
# [07:41] <fantasai> since if you care that much about font particulars that you'll accept a normal face in place of italic, you probably care enough to send along a copy of the font you want :)
# [07:41] <jdaggett> well, not completely true
# [07:42] <jdaggett> there are also language cases where you want italic instances to use the regular face
# [07:42] <jdaggett> like arabic
# [07:42] <jdaggett> Example: Arial has arabic glyphs, Arial Italic does not
# [07:43] <jdaggett> so how the fallback occurs is not readily clear
# [07:43] <fantasai> ah, yes
# [07:43] <fantasai> that's an interesting case
# [07:43] <jdaggett> you probably just want to ignore the italic setting
# [07:44] <jdaggett> or slant left instead of right
# [07:44] <jdaggett> but that's getting a bit fancy
# [07:44] <jdaggett> there's no italic vs. regular equivalent in arabic from my understanding
# [07:47] <fantasai> I'd check with Paul Nelson
# [07:47] <fantasai> He's got a lot of experience with international typography
# [07:47] <jdaggett> yeah, i saw that he did the OT table work for the Arabic Typography font that MS produced
# [07:47] <fantasai> He's taking a break from the CSSWG because he's got too many other projects, but he'll be happy to answer questions.
# [07:48] <fantasai> Steve Zilles is also a good person to talk with.
# [07:48] <fantasai> And of course you can always shoot questions at the i18n working group on www-international. :)
# [07:50] <fantasai> But I'd definitely hook Paul into discussions about things like this
# [07:50] <fantasai> He's even in your timezone, almost ;)
# [07:51] <jdaggett> will do, although he seems kinda busy when i contacted him before
# [08:31] <krijnh> fantasai: You mean the HTML5 part? :)
# [08:32] <fantasai> yeah :)
# [08:33] * Joins: sharovatov (vitaly@83.239.166.49)
# [08:33] <fantasai> krijnh: your logs in use @ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0148.html :)
# [08:34] <sharovatov> fantasai, do you ever sleep ? :) never seen you away :)
# [08:34] <krijnh> fantasai: As a reference?
# [08:34] <krijnh> fantasai: happens quite a lot actually
# [08:35] <fantasai> sharovatov: um.. you must be checking at the wrong times
# [08:35] <fantasai> sharovatov: I was away most of today
# [08:35] <fantasai> er..
# [08:35] <fantasai> yesterday by your clock :)
# [08:35] <sharovatov> :) maybe... well, I'm GMT+3 :)
# [08:36] * fantasai is on West Coast time atm
# [08:36] <sharovatov> I see :)
# [08:36] <krijnh> fantasai: tips for a better cross channel title?
# [08:37] <fantasai> can't think of anything that short
# [08:38] <fantasai> but.. Web Standardization ?
# [08:41] <krijnh> Hmm
# [08:53] * fantasai away bedtime~
# [08:53] <sharovatov> :)
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# [18:02] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/14-css-irc
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# [18:05] <Bert> trackbot-ng, start telcon
# [18:05] * trackbot-ng Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/
# [18:05] * trackbot-ng is starting a teleconference
# [18:05] <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs member
# [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot-ng
# [18:05] <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP
# [18:05] <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
# [18:05] <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
# [18:05] <trackbot-ng> Date: 14 May 2008
# [18:05] <Bert> rrsagent, make logs public
# [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Bert
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aacc
# [18:05] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3)
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# [18:06] <plinss> zakim, +1.408.398 is dsinger
# [18:06] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
# [18:06] <plinss> zakim, who is here?
# [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.760.741.aaaa, Bert, +1.510.981.aabb, dsinger
# [18:06] <Zakim> +David_Baron
# [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see jason_cranfordtea, dbaron, dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, alexmog, Bert, bjoern, anne, trackbot-ng, jdaggett, fantasai, hsivonen, Hixie, plinss, krijnh
# [18:07] <plinss> zakim, +1.760.741 is plinss
# [18:07] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
# [18:07] <plinss> zakim, +1.510.981 is fantasai
# [18:07] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aadd
# [18:08] * alexmog alexmog is on IRC, will call in if needed
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# [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:09] * Bert checks code area 703: seems to be Arlington, VA
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# [18:09] <plinss> zakim, +1.703.265 is jason_cranfordtea
# [18:09] <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea; got it
# [18:11] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
# [18:13] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [18:14] <dbaron> I've read a bunch of previous drafts of the charter; not sure if they include the current one.
# [18:14] <fantasai> you said the *exact* same thing last time!
# [18:14] <dsinger> I did read the charter a little while back, I may not be up to date, tho
# [18:14] <fantasai> Jason: My team had a meeting and talked about it. We think we should consider saying a bit more about outreach
# [18:15] <fantasai> Peter: Still waiting on Opera for module feedback
# [18:15] <fantasai> Peter: No comments on module priority on www-style
# [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: I didn't see Selectors 4 on the list anywhere
# [18:16] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139)
# [18:16] <Zakim> + +1.281.419.aaee
# [18:16] <fantasai> Peter: So only things on agenda this week are Backgrounds and Borders
# [18:16] <hyatt> me
# [18:16] <dbaron> Zakim, +1.281.419.aaee is Dave_Hyatt
# [18:16] <Zakim> +Dave_Hyatt; got it
# [18:18] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0148.html Bottom list
# [18:18] <fantasai> fantasai summarizes issues in "needs discussion" list
# [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: opposed to changing background-origin to background-box
# [18:23] <dbaron> hyatt: I like background-origin -- I think it's descriptive.
# [18:24] <fantasai> peter: for positioning from other corners, I can see that calc() can do it.. I can also see the utility in using start/end
# [18:24] <fantasai> peter: maybe add start/end keywords to calc?
# [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai doesn't think that makes much sense
# [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: one proposal for syntax was background-position: bottom 10px right 25px;
# [18:25] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0148.html
# [18:26] <fantasai> peter: for percentage border widths, I have a vague memory that adding more percentages to width calculations can create circular dependencies.. but maybe I'm wrong
# [18:27] <fantasai> hyatt?: I don't think you get a circular dependency if you add the same rules we have other places, relative to the width of the block and defaulting to something else if you can't resolve the percentage
# [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: We already have the same problems with percentage margins. I'm concerned about tables.
# [18:28] <fantasai> hyatt: you could say it doesn't apply
# [18:28] <fantasai> fantasai: can default to 'medium'
# [18:29] <fantasai> hyatt: is there a compelling use case for this?
# [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: not really
# [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: it's there for margin and padding
# [18:30] * Quits: Arron (arronei@131.107.0.73) (Ping timeout)
# [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: figured we'd ask WG if anyone really wants to implement it
# [18:30] <fantasai> Bert: borders don't always look like borders
# [18:30] <fantasai> hyatt: if there's no compelling use case, then leave it to another level
# [18:31] <fantasai> hyatt: it's just another thing to hold back the module
# [18:34] <fantasai> Bert: I'd like to add it and mark it at risk
# [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't want to define what happens in tables, that's extra work and not easy
# [18:34] * Quits: SteveZ (180671e4@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [18:35] <dbaron> I said "I think it is too."
# [18:35] <fantasai> peter: should record idea somewhere
# [18:35] <dbaron> I'm getting a lot of echo from somebody else's phone.
# [18:35] * Bert david should speak every syllable twice, because half of them drop out :-)
# [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: We can add a note about the problems and why we're planning to drop it in the next WD
# [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: then drop it in the next round
# [18:35] * Joins: Arron (arronei@131.107.0.73)
# [18:35] <dbaron> (regarding percentage border-radius being implemented in Gecko)
# [18:36] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:36] <fantasai> peter: I think percentage border radii were implemented in Gecko
# [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: Gecko avoids the confusion of what percentages are relative to by only allowing one radius: corners are always circular
# [18:37] * Joins: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19)
# [18:37] <glazou> hi
# [18:37] * glazou is joining the call now
# [18:37] <fantasai> hyatt: I think percentage border radii and percentage border widths go together
# [18:37] <Zakim> + +95089aaff
# [18:37] <glazou> Zakim, +95089aaff is me
# [18:37] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it sounds like they go together when you say it, but not when you look at it
# [18:38] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:38] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (60%), fantasai (7%), jason_cranfordtea (15%)
# [18:38] <glazou> oops
# [18:38] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:38] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:38] <fantasai> peter: I think the use case was for having rounded ends
# [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: you can get that if you set large radii, say 2em on a navigation button. They get reduced until they don't intersect, so you'd get rounded ends that way
# [18:39] * glazou wants to deeply apologize for being so late ; really nothing I could do about it
# [18:39] * fantasai it's ok glazou, you had a very good excuse
# [18:39] * glazou unfortunately
# [18:40] <fantasai> peter: Everyone please review the list of issue changes here, we will discuss next week as needed
# [18:40] <dbaron> hyatt, since you're here, I'd like to bring http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0145.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0147.html to your attention (Feel free to respond on the list)
# [18:40] <fantasai> peter: update on logo contest
# [18:40] <fantasai> jason: for the prizes we have generous donations from HP and Adobe for a first-prize kit
# [18:40] <fantasai> jason: we could use more, anything like T-shirts etc
# [18:41] <dsinger> I have not yet got response from Apple folk
# [18:41] <fantasai> jason: right now only have enough for first place
# [18:41] <fantasai> jason: end of update
# [18:41] <hyatt> dbaron: Issue 3: Should the z-index property apply to elements with opacity?
# [18:41] <hyatt> dbaron: we have a bug filed against webkit on that
# [18:42] <glazou> peter, can you stay here a minute after the end of the call please ?
# [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: what is the plan for module list in charter?
# [18:42] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:42] <Zakim> glazou was not muted, glazou
# [18:42] * plinss can stay
# [18:42] <fantasai> peter: wait for Opera.. if we don't hear from Opera then we'll just go ahead with what we have
# [18:43] <hyatt> dbaron: i wasn't sure that treating opacity as having a z-index of 0 was good enough
# [18:43] <hyatt> dbaron: i kind of felt like a nonpositioned element with opacity should paint behind positioned elements with a z-index of 0
# [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: for things that will shift from implementor feedback (like CSS Namespaces), how are you going to do that?
# [18:44] <dbaron> hyatt, but there's also no alternative layer that's appropriate, since the background and the text of boxes have to be together...
# [18:44] <fantasai> peter: editorial change by me
# [18:44] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
# [18:44] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:44] <Zakim> -David_Baron
# [18:44] <Zakim> -Dave_Hyatt
# [18:44] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:44] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
# [18:44] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/14-css-irc#T16-41-14
# [18:45] <hyatt> dbaron: i think i'm suggesting amending (8) in http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html
# [18:45] <hyatt> or adding something between (7) and (7)
# [18:45] <hyatt> (7) and (8)
# [18:45] <dbaron> hyatt, CSS 2.1 doesn't have 'opacity'
# [18:45] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
# [18:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
# [18:45] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
# [18:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/14-css-minutes.html fantasai
# [18:45] <hyatt> yes i know that :)
# [18:45] <dbaron> hyatt, but I see what you mean
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# [18:45] <hyatt> i'm just using that doc since css3 doesn't have one yet does it
# [18:45] <dbaron> hyatt, that said, Mozilla and Webkit both implement putting it in (8)
# [18:45] <dbaron> hyatt, and I don't see a convincing case that it's worth changing
# [18:46] <hyatt> let me clarify
# [18:46] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:46] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:46] <dbaron> hyatt, after all, putting position:relative elements at a different z-order doesn't particularly make sense either...
# [18:46] <dbaron> hyatt, no, I see what you mean -- adding a layer in the definition in css3-color
# [18:46] * glazou absolutely *needs* to rest 15 minutes
# [18:46] <glazou> bbl
# [18:46] <hyatt> if you have positioned element A, opacity element, positioned element B all with z-index of 0
# [18:46] <Zakim> -dsinger
# [18:46] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:46] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.760.741.aaaa, Bert, +1.510.981.aabb, +1.408.398.aacc, dsinger, David_Baron, plinss, fantasai, +1.703.265.aadd, SteveZ, jason_cranfordtea, Dave_Hyatt, glazou
# [18:46] <hyatt> it feels weird to me that the opacity element is in between them
# [18:46] <dbaron> hyatt, it doesn't feel weird to me
# [18:47] <hyatt> but i don't feel so strongly that i'd object
# [18:47] <hyatt> so basically webkit needs to force the z-index to 0 if it's something else and you aren't positioned
# [18:47] <hyatt> right now we just force auto to 0
# [18:47] <hyatt> but we need to force other values to 0 too
# [18:48] <hyatt> dbaron: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16130
# [18:49] <hyatt> so yeah i agree with all three of your proposed resolutions
# [18:49] <dbaron> ok
# [18:51] <hyatt> dbaron: responded to the list.
# [18:51] <dbaron> hyatt, ok, thanks
# [18:51] <hyatt> we have the same issue with masks, reflections and transforms
# [18:51] <hyatt> we let z-index apply
# [18:51] <hyatt> so i should just change those at the same time
# [18:52] <hyatt> and hope i don't break someone's phone content lol
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# [19:04] <fantasai> hey ChrisL, jdaggett and jason teague have been trying to get in contact with you
# [19:05] <ChrisL> yes, i know; will respond tomorrow
# [19:05] <ChrisL> on call right now
# [19:05] <fantasai> cool
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# [19:34] <plinss> FYI: Namespace transition to CR approved
# [19:34] <fantasai> YAY!
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# [21:22] <fantasai> plinss: so.. can you message the list about that so I can request publication? or is there some other process we have to follow here?
# [21:57] <Bert> Fantasai, I can handle the publication. (Although you can help by checking that the document is pubrules-compliant.)
# [21:57] <Bert> There is going to be an official announcement to the AC the same day.
# [21:58] <fantasai> should be pubrules compliant
# [21:58] <Bert> (Which I will draft together with the comm team.)
# [21:58] <fantasai> but the date needs fixing
# [21:58] <Bert> Yas, I thought so.
# [21:59] <Bert> It's officially not official until it is really published, but as this channel is not really private...
# [21:59] <Bert> And anyway it is not a very high-profile specification :-)
# [22:00] <fantasai> no :)
# [22:09] <hyatt> i have an issue for you two in backgrounds/borders
# [22:09] <hyatt> one thing that is coming up over and over again for us
# [22:09] <hyatt> is that people expect border-radius to clip replaced elements
# [22:10] <hyatt> e.g., <img style="border-radius: etc.">
# [22:10] <hyatt> they expect the image itself to clip
# [22:10] <hyatt> same with <video>
# [22:10] <hyatt> and any replaced element really
# [22:10] <fantasai> hmm
# [22:10] <fantasai> that's a good point
# [22:10] <fantasai> also for tables, they expect cell backgrounds to clip
# [22:11] <fantasai> you can do it for sure if you specify overflow: hidden;
# [22:11] <fantasai> that's in the spec already
# [22:11] <hyatt> additionally we got a bug from someone expecting children to be clipped by the border radius when overflow:hidden is set
# [22:11] <hyatt> right
# [22:11] <fantasai> yes
# [22:11] <hyatt> but i'm not convinced overflow should have to be specified for replaced elements
# [22:11] <fantasai> they should indeed be clipped
# [22:11] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167) (Quit: dsinger)
# [22:11] <hyatt> i think replaced elements should just clip their contents (or maybe the spec should say that the UA *can*)
# [22:12] <hyatt> replaced elements don't really have 'overflow'
# [22:12] <fantasai> the can when you use image-fit
# [22:12] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-page/#img-fit-img-posn
# [22:12] <hyatt> interesting
# [22:12] <fantasai> hyatt: would putting img, video { overflow: hidden; } in the UA style sheet solve the problem?
# [22:13] <hyatt> i'm willing to tell everyone that they have to use overflow:hidden
# [22:13] * hyatt is trying to understand image-fit :)
# [22:14] <hyatt> gross
# [22:14] <hyatt> :)
# [22:14] <hyatt> i don't like the overflow:visible renderings
# [22:14] <fantasai> ?
# [22:14] <hyatt> i guess i'm wondering why replaced elements wouldn't just implicitly always be overflow:hidden
# [22:15] <hyatt> so maybe i am agreeing that overflow:hidden should be set in the UA sheet :)
# [22:15] <fantasai> I think that's fine
# [22:15] <hyatt> replaced elements being able to spill out of their containers is a nasty complication to those elements...
# [22:15] <fantasai> I think the reasoning there was that we wanted overflow: auto; to do something useful in these cases
# [22:16] <hyatt> i guess you'd start making anonymous boxes to wrap them at that point
# [22:16] * hyatt or something
# [22:16] <hyatt> image-fit/image-position are almost turning image into two renderers
# [22:16] <hyatt> an enclosing box and then the image itself
# [22:17] <hyatt> these should be renamed too
# [22:17] <hyatt> obviously you want this to apply to html5 <video> too
# [22:17] <fantasai> yes, but rename to what?
# [22:17] <hyatt> so "image" is not necessarily the best name
# [22:18] <fantasai> replaced-element-fit?
# [22:18] <hyatt> yeah that sounds so geeky
# [22:18] <hyatt> image at least is descriptive
# [22:18] <fantasai> image is something authors can relate to
# [22:18] <hyatt> why is this in paged media?
# [22:18] <fantasai> spec says it applies to all replaced elements
# [22:18] <fantasai> because the printer people wanted it
# [22:18] <fantasai> and the box module wasn't moving fast enough
# [22:18] <fantasai> or something
# [22:19] <hyatt> lol
# [22:19] <fantasai> if we get the Overflow module split off from Box we could put it there
# [22:19] <hyatt> ok yeah i'll just say that people have to put overflow:hidden on replaced elements
# [22:19] <fantasai> box module is going to take awhile.. it has to cover all of CSS2.1's hairiest chapters
# [22:20] <fantasai> I'd just put it in the ua style sheet
# [22:20] <fantasai> make life easier for them : most won't be using it on generated content
# [22:20] <fantasai> if we put that in the spec we, should be able to get interop on it
# [22:20] <hyatt> yeah
# [22:20] <hyatt> that sounds good to me
# [22:21] <hyatt> i still have to write code to *do* something when overflow is set on a replaced element :)
# [22:21] <fantasai> yeah, but you'd have to do that anyway :)
# [22:21] <fantasai> can you send a message about this to www-style?
# [22:21] <fantasai> or I could do it
# [22:22] <hyatt> i will do it
# [22:27] <hyatt> fantasai: ok sent
# [22:27] <fantasai> thansk
# [22:27] <fantasai> s/sk/ks/
# [22:31] <hyatt> have you thought about background-origin-box, background-clip-box
# [22:31] <fantasai> no
# [22:31] <hyatt> that might address dbaron's concern
# [22:31] <fantasai> I don't think background-clip-box is necessary, really
# [22:31] <fantasai> just long
# [22:31] <fantasai> the keywords already have -box in them anyway
# [22:31] * hyatt doesn't really have an issue with any of the current property names
# [22:32] <hyatt> they do?
# [22:32] <hyatt> did the keywords change?
# [22:32] <fantasai> that's the plan
# [22:32] <hyatt> ah
# [22:32] <fantasai> want to make the match box-sizing
# [22:32] <dbaron> I thought they've always been content-box, padding-box, border-box
# [22:32] <hyatt> nope
# [22:32] <hyatt> at one point they were kjust content, padding, border
# [22:32] <hyatt> and that is what is implemented in webkti i think
# [22:32] * hyatt double checks
# [22:33] <dbaron> ah, right
# [22:33] <dbaron> we implement padding, border, content
# [22:33] <hyatt> btw we support multiple shadows now
# [22:33] <hyatt> and we reversed the order as per the recent decision or whatever
# [22:34] <fantasai> ok
# [22:34] <fantasai> does that apply to box-shadow as well?
# [22:34] <hyatt> yes
# [22:34] <fantasai> ok
# [22:34] <fantasai> I guess we'll leave that off the at-risk section then :)
# [22:34] <hyatt> my understanding is that gecko has multiple shadows coming soon
# [22:35] <fantasai> we have shadows at all?
# [22:35] <hyatt> michael ventnor did them i believe?
# [22:35] <hyatt> not landed yet
# [22:35] <fantasai> ah
# [22:38] <fantasai> I should add myself to that CC list
# [22:38] <fantasai> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10713
# [22:38] <hyatt> i am excited that backgrounds/borders could be finishing up soon
# [22:39] * hyatt is so ready to drop the -webkit- off of those
# [22:39] <fantasai> heh
# [22:39] * fantasai pulls up a text editor to work on edits
# [22:39] <hyatt> it would be very helpful to have the names finalized within the next couple of months
# [22:39] <fantasai> I'm aiming for WD in June
# [22:39] <hyatt> great
# [22:39] <fantasai> to get some comments
# [22:39] <fantasai> and LC afterwards
# [22:40] * hyatt wants to get css variables names discussed
# [22:40] <hyatt> i have css variables implemented
# [22:40] <hyatt> i ran into a bunch of stuff though that warrants discussion
# [22:40] <fantasai> I haven't looked at the draft really
# [22:40] <hyatt> the draft is kind of woefully underspecified
# [22:40] <fantasai> I'm not surprised
# [22:40] <hyatt> as all first drafts tend to be
# [22:40] <fantasai> :)
# [22:40] <hyatt> i think the value at call sites should just be dropped
# [22:41] <hyatt> all it does is makes it harder to use the CSS OM to query for values
# [22:41] <hyatt> also the spec is a "2.1" spec
# [22:41] <hyatt> it needs to talk about some css3 stuff
# [22:41] <hyatt> like where do @variables go in relation to @namespace
# [22:41] <hyatt> right now it's @import then @namespace
# [22:41] <fantasai> yeah, it should build off the 2007 snapshot
# [22:42] <hyatt> do @variables go before @namespace, after @namespace, intermixed with @namespace, etc.
# [22:42] <hyatt> i chose before
# [22:42] <hyatt> but it was arbitrary
# [22:43] <hyatt> so what is the next step i should take for some of our new proposals
# [22:43] <hyatt> let's say... transitions.
# [22:43] <fantasai> put it on dev.w3.org
# [22:43] <fantasai> then address dbaron's comments :)
# [22:44] <fantasai> (that way your changes get logged by CVS)
# [22:45] <hyatt> ok so we have the ok to check stuff in there
# [22:45] <fantasai> sure
# [22:45] <fantasai> you had that awhile ago
# [22:45] <hyatt> that would be behind the password for anyone who tried to view it
# [22:45] <fantasai> what? no
# [22:45] <fantasai> dev.w3.org, not www.w3.org
# [22:45] <hyatt> i know i have the technical permission to commit :)
# [22:46] <hyatt> what is dev.w3.org?
# [22:46] <hyatt> oh it's the repository
# [22:46] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/
# [22:46] <hyatt> nice
# [22:46] <fantasai> Bert sent you a message months ago saying you could put the specs there
# [22:46] <hyatt> he did?
# [22:46] <fantasai> yes
# [22:46] <hyatt> i thought he said they were outside th charter
# [22:46] <hyatt> so i held off
# [22:46] <fantasai> he also said that
# [22:47] <fantasai> but dev.w3.org is unofficial space
# [22:47] <hyatt> ah ok
# [22:47] <hyatt> i got scared off by the charter talk
# [22:47] * hyatt :)
# [22:48] * fantasai grabs some instructions she sent to jdaggett and forwards them to you
# [22:48] <hyatt> ty!
# [22:48] <hyatt> do you have any suggestions on what i should do with gradients
# [22:49] <hyatt> does that warrant its own individual proposal or is there some module that should be proposed to instead
# [22:49] <fantasai> don't know really
# [22:49] <fantasai> we should also add image slices somewhere
# [22:49] <hyatt> we cut out 31 images in the inspector alone :)
# [22:49] <hyatt> in the web inspector
# [22:49] <hyatt> just from adding gradients
# [22:50] <hyatt> is an image slice like doing something like image-slice(url(foo.png), rect(whatever))?
# [22:50] <hyatt> in place of a url?
# [22:50] <fantasai> yeah, except hopefully less verbose :)
# [22:50] <hyatt> sure
# [22:51] <hyatt> yeah webkit has a neat architecture now for pluggable "image generators"
# [22:51] <hyatt> so it's easy to add these new types
# [22:51] <hyatt> we've been talking about adding something for video
# [22:51] <hyatt> so that you could use video everywhere
# [22:52] <hyatt> you run into similar problems, e.g., do you want to specify a time slice, should it play automatically, how many times should it play, etc.
# [22:52] <hyatt> (you could imagine having similar rules for animated gifs used as backgrounds too)
# [22:52] <fantasai> ahh, there was this horrible test case in the old nglayout builds
# [22:52] <fantasai> with an animated gif background
# [22:52] <hyatt> the eyes
# [22:54] * hyatt will update his mask-* props and his text-fill-* props to match whatever changes happen to the background props
# [22:55] <fantasai> hyatt: what do you think of the inner shadow proposals?
# [22:55] <fantasai> is it something you'd want to add?
# [22:55] <hyatt> i don't really understand it
# [22:55] <hyatt> i.e., what the use case is
# [22:55] <fantasai> http://bradclicks.com/cssplay/Shadows.html
# [22:55] <fantasai> did you see that?
# [22:56] <hyatt> no. /me looks
# [22:56] <fantasai> the use case is a) making the box look like it's cut out of the canvas b) putting a glow effect around the inside of the border
# [22:56] <fantasai> (the layered letters there look really terrible because they're not composited as a unit)
# [22:57] <hyatt> i see.
# [22:57] <hyatt> so the problem
# [22:57] <hyatt> is that shadows are built into CG
# [22:57] <hyatt> so i would have to sit here and try to think of what clever hacks i could do to make it render that way
# [22:57] <hyatt> our multiple shadow hack is glorious
# [22:58] <hyatt> as is our box-shadow hack
# [22:58] <fantasai> heh
# [22:58] <hyatt> (we render the glyphs way outside the visible area and increase the shadow offset by a huge amount)
# [22:58] <hyatt> (so that the cast shadow is far away from the glyphs and all you get rendered is the shadow)
# [22:58] <hyatt> that's how we did multiple shadows
# [22:58] <hyatt> in theory that hack is repeatable
# [22:59] <hyatt> as long as i can find a way to replicate the desired rendering
# [23:00] <hyatt> fantasai: i don't really understand what the text-shadow rendering is though
# [23:00] <hyatt> i.e., what you're actually doing in the implementation
# [23:01] <hyatt> box-shadow seems straightforward to invert
# [23:01] <fantasai> I think you're basically rendering the text
# [23:01] <fantasai> as foreground
# [23:02] <fantasai> and then inverting so that the foreground is transparent and the surface is opaque
# [23:02] * hyatt is trying to think if there is a transform he could apply to the glyphs to cause their shadows to look like this
# [23:02] <fantasai> and the casting a shadow of the cutouts
# [23:02] <fantasai> *and then
# [23:02] <fantasai> then you paint the text as normal
# [23:03] <fantasai> and paint the shadows on top of that
# [23:03] <hyatt> so maybe i could construct a mask image
# [23:04] <hyatt> what is spread
# [23:04] <fantasai> make the shadow wider on all sides by the specified amount
# [23:04] <fantasai> typically used in conjunction with blur radius
# [23:04] <fantasai> but brad rendered some shadows without the blur radius to demonstrate the effect
# [23:05] <fantasai> the fourth example in the images there
# [23:05] <fantasai> is spread without blur radius
# [23:05] <hyatt> yeah i am not sure we could implement that
# [23:05] <hyatt> if we can't hack it in without a change to coregraphics
# [23:05] <hyatt> then it's up to coregraphics to do it
# [23:05] <hyatt> and then it's who knows when
# [23:05] <hyatt> next os if you're lucky
# [23:06] <fantasai> I think we'll leave it in the draft, maybe mark it at risk
# [23:06] <hyatt> and we have to run on older os as well
# [23:06] <fantasai> it's very commonly requested
# [23:06] <hyatt> i certainly see the utility
# [23:06] <fantasai> whenever box-shadow comes up
# [23:06] <hyatt> are these just tacked on to the end of text-shadow and box-shadow?
# [23:06] <fantasai> yes
# [23:06] <fantasai> fourth length value, optional
# [23:06] <hyatt> interesting.
# [23:07] <hyatt> i think i could do cast.
# [23:07] <hyatt> spread is the iffy one.
# [23:07] <hyatt> i'm intrigued by the challenge though. :)
# [23:07] <fantasai> we might get it from other implementors
# [23:07] <hyatt> yeah other implementors have a nice advantage
# [23:07] <fantasai> to pull the draft through CR
# [23:08] <hyatt> having written their own (much slower but controlled) shadow code. :)
# [23:08] <hyatt> i do like it
# [23:08] <fantasai> good :)
# [23:09] <fantasai> Bert and I thought it would be good to add
# [23:09] <fantasai> so we didn't mark it especially for WG discussion
# [23:09] <hyatt> yeah i like it
# [23:09] <hyatt> i am wondering about spread
# [23:09] <hyatt> could spread not be achieved with multiple shadows
# [23:09] <hyatt> it looks like it's just delaying the blur
# [23:09] <fantasai> infinite other shadows, yes
# [23:10] <fantasai> if you want to get the curves right
# [23:10] <hyatt> i think i don't understand spread
# [23:10] <hyatt> where is the text describing it
# [23:10] <fantasai> haven't added it yet
# [23:10] <fantasai> it's in photoshop apparently
# [23:10] <hyatt> explain it to me like i'm 5.
# [23:10] <hyatt> :)
# [23:10] <fantasai> but then I can't use math terms :(
# [23:11] <fantasai> basically you take a radius and attach one end to the edge of your shadow
# [23:11] <fantasai> then sweep around the edge of the shadow
# [23:11] <fantasai> anything the radius can reach gets added to the shadow
# [23:11] <fantasai> at least that's what I can tell from Brad's drawings
# [23:11] <fantasai> the corners of the A are where you can best see what's going on
# [23:12] <Bert> As far as I understand, spread is as if the shadow is cast by an object a little larger than th ebox, larger by spread pixels on all sides, in fact.
# [23:12] <fantasai> yes, but the key thing is that corners don't stay sharp
# [23:12] <fantasai> they get rounded, like I described
# [23:12] <fantasai> a 5px radius attached to a corner sweeps a curve around it
# [23:13] <fantasai> it's kinda like the blur radius, except there's no fading
# [23:13] <fantasai> I think
# [23:15] <hyatt> i don't understand this well enough to know how to implement it :)
# [23:17] <fantasai> it's kinda like the 'text-outline' proposal, except you're outlining the shadow, not the box itself, using the shadow color.
# [23:17] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-outline
# [23:18] <hyatt> i guess what bugs me about spread
# [23:18] <hyatt> is that it just seems like a shadow applied to a stroke
# [23:18] <hyatt> which you can do in webkit already
# [23:19] <hyatt> albeit via proprietary css atm
# [23:19] <fantasai> I'm not sure what that means, but I don't think that's it.
# [23:19] <hyatt> it seems more natural to me to do stroking or outlining separately
# [23:19] <hyatt> you're right it's not quite that
# [23:19] <hyatt> since the shadow can be offset
# [23:19] <fantasai> like in the last example in Brad's mockup, yes
# [23:19] <hyatt> let me rephrase
# [23:20] <hyatt> it's like you took an imaginary character
# [23:20] <hyatt> stroked it and filled it with the same color
# [23:20] <hyatt> with the stroke thickness = to the spread px
# [23:20] <hyatt> and then the shadow cast by THAT combined shape
# [23:20] <hyatt> is what you should get
# [23:20] <fantasai> yes
# [23:20] <fantasai> except.. isn't stroke centered on the border? so you'd have to stroke with 2x the spread thickness?
# [23:21] <hyatt> so like bert said it's like you thickened the glyph with an outline
# [23:21] <hyatt> and then rendered the cast shadow of that thickened glyph
# [23:21] <fantasai> yeah
# [23:21] <hyatt> yeah for CG stroke is half inside the glyph
# [23:21] <hyatt> so the stroke width is 2x the spread thickness correct
# [23:22] <hyatt> ok so yes i believe i could do spread
# [23:23] <fantasai> cool
# [23:23] <hyatt> so now i'm left trying to understand how to do cast on text
# [23:23] <hyatt> cast of inside
# [23:23] <hyatt> i see how to do cast of inside on box-shadow
# [23:23] <hyatt> but text is making my brain hurt
# [23:24] <fantasai> I don't think it's as important for text
# [23:24] <fantasai> IIRC one of the designers on www-style said as much
# [23:25] <hyatt> i think what has to be done
# [23:25] <hyatt> is a mask image has to be made that inverts
# [23:25] <hyatt> such that the "cutouts" are what should draw
# [23:25] <hyatt> then you blit that image and tell the image to cast a shadow
# [23:26] <fantasai> yeah
# [23:26] <hyatt> and then the cutout portions would cast the shadow
# [23:26] <hyatt> meh i'm not sure that works for the glyph edges though
# [23:27] <fantasai> should work. You basically get a "stencil" of the glyphs and cast the shadow of the stencil over the text
# [23:28] <hyatt> i think i will add support for spread first, since i see how to do it
# [23:28] <fantasai> :)
# [23:28] <hyatt> spread is trivial for box-shadow
# [23:29] <hyatt> fantasai: i don't suppose you know what font he's using in that page
# [23:29] <hyatt> http://bradclicks.com/cssplay/Shadows.html
# [23:29] <fantasai> no idea
# [23:29] <fantasai> you could ask
# [23:30] * hyatt will just use Monaco in his tests :)
# [23:30] <fantasai> http://bradclicks.com/cssplay/Shadows2.html
# [23:30] <fantasai> another mockup
# [23:30] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0135.html
# [23:30] <fantasai> message
# [23:31] <fantasai> this one includes borders and uses a semitransparent shadow
# [23:32] <fantasai> speaking of tests, can we get your QA people to write a test suite once the spec stabilizes?
# [23:32] <hyatt> if you knew how many qa people we have you would realize how funny that is
# [23:33] <hyatt> (we basically have 3 on all of webkit+safari on mac+windows)
# [23:33] <hyatt> lol
# [23:33] <fantasai> wow
# [23:33] <hyatt> did you see the part where the safari beta crashed on any non-english system on windows?
# [23:33] <fantasai> well, you'd've had one more if your HR people had decided to hire me back in 2005 ;)
# [23:33] <hyatt> so ummm yeah
# [23:34] <hyatt> 2005 eh
# [23:34] <hyatt> that was before the safari team started hiring like crazy because of the windows project
# [23:37] <fantasai> HR people from tech companies didn't seem to like my resume much. Must've been the Civil Engineering degree. :P
# [23:37] <hyatt> i don't think we had any open reqs in 2005
# [23:37] <fantasai> you had one near the end of 2005
# [23:37] <hyatt> near the end yeah
# [23:38] <hyatt> although that probably would have been f or windows qa as opposed to web engine qa
# [23:38] <hyatt> who knows
# [23:38] <hyatt> apple hires way too few qa
# [23:39] <Bert> Here's an idea, hyatt: can you hire fantasai and send her here as a W3C Fellow? Then her work doesn't only benefit one company, but the whole world (and especially me :-) )
# [23:40] * fantasai thinks Bert has a vested interest in this plan
# [23:40] <hyatt> i have complained about this in the past
# [23:40] <hyatt> as has maciej
# [23:40] <hyatt> we need more people working for apple and working on specs
# [23:40] <fantasai> HP did renew my contract with an expanded scope for spec work
# [23:41] <hyatt> you at HP san diego?
# [23:41] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.73)
# [23:41] <fantasai> I'm self-employed and living in Berkeley atm, but yes, my main contract is with HP in San Diego
# [23:41] <hyatt> so if i add spread and we ship it i'm not going to mess up the property hopefully
# [23:42] <hyatt> this one is tricky because it's not prefixed
# [23:42] <fantasai> box-shadow?
# [23:42] <fantasai> or text-shadow?
# [23:42] <hyatt> i really can't add it unless you are 100% sure it's going to be there
# [23:42] <hyatt> text-shadow
# [23:42] <hyatt> box-shadow is not a problem. it's still -webkit-
# [23:43] <fantasai> I'd wait a week or so
# [23:43] <hyatt> OS X people eat up text-shadow
# [23:43] <hyatt> and use it everywhere :)
# [23:43] <hyatt> so if i add a capability like spread or cast it will get used
# [23:43] <hyatt> and then i won't be able to break it :)
# [23:44] <fantasai> we'll hopefully close on the box-shadow issue next week
# [23:44] <hyatt> i could add it and put it on my list of "things i should turn off before shippin"
# [23:44] <hyatt> shipping
# [23:44] <hyatt> anyway i like the functionality
# [23:44] <hyatt> is going to wander off and implement spread right now
# [23:45] <hyatt> so it's color offset-x offset-y blur spread cast
# [23:45] <fantasai> not sure about cast
# [23:45] <hyatt> with spread and cast being optional and defaulting to 0 and outside presumably
# [23:45] <fantasai> we haven't discussed syntax for cast
# [23:45] <hyatt> k
# [23:45] <hyatt> i'll experiment with spread
# [23:45] <fantasai> just wanted to see if there was any interest
# [23:45] <hyatt> spread is like 2hrs to implement tops
# [23:45] <fantasai> color? && offset-x offset-y blur? spread?
# [23:46] <fantasai> where && is the same as || except both sides are required
# [23:47] * fantasai bets hyatt will have it implemented before she finishes writing spec text
# [23:47] <hyatt> quite possibly! ;)
# [23:47] <fantasai> I haven't forgotten when you implemented multiple backgrounds during the F2F discussion, heh
# [23:48] * hyatt implements things fast when he is properly motivated
# [23:49] <hyatt> i'm sitting on my css variables impl for a while
# [23:49] <hyatt> i want us to resolve some stuff before i land it
# [23:49] <hyatt> since i think people will get too excited about it if i land it and blog about it
# [23:55] <fantasai> have you blogged about the proposal?
# [23:55] <hyatt> css variables? no
# [23:55] <hyatt> but somehow wired.com wrote about it
# [23:55] <hyatt> and then ajaxian
# [23:55] <hyatt> and then people started guessing that webkit was going to get it
# [23:55] <fantasai> You could blog about the proposal, to get feedback on that without sending out an impl
# [23:55] <hyatt> when at the time i hadn't written a line of code
# [23:55] <fantasai> heh
# [23:56] <fantasai> one of my concerns is that the proposal doesn't go far enough
# [23:56] <fantasai> there were several feature requests that.. if you took them literally, they'd seriously screw with the cascade
# [23:56] <fantasai> and I'm wondering if macros would be adequate to solve those problems
# [23:56] <fantasai> most related to repeating things too often, it seemed
# [23:57] <Bert> Please, please, please don't add variables/macros. It's unnecessary (people can use PHP) and in fact harmful: I want *more* users and implementers of CSS, not less :-(
# Session Close: Thu May 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)