/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-06-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [01:00] * Joins: bjoern (bjoern@84.56.237.118)
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  5. # [02:26] <bjoern> "Online registration to be required for visa-free travel to U.S." - http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/06/03/travel.registration/
  6. # [06:09] <dbaron> like Australia, I suppose
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  10. # [07:00] <dbaron> And I think the Australian ETAs required A$25 or something like that
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  15. # [09:27] <anne> yay, css-flexbox :)
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  17. # [10:03] * trackbot-ng Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/
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  34. # [16:50] <fantasai> grffndr
  35. # [16:51] <fantasai> ...
  36. # [17:40] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3)
  37. # [17:47] * Joins: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19)
  38. # [17:47] <glazou> hello
  39. # [17:54] * Joins: Molly (Molly@72.200.79.204)
  40. # [17:55] <glazou> hi Molly
  41. # [17:55] <Molly> Hi Daniel, HI all
  42. # [17:58] <glazou> regrets from hakon and anne
  43. # [17:58] <glazou> innovimax
  44. # [17:58] <glazou> dsinger
  45. # [17:58] <glazou> and bert
  46. # [17:58] <glazou> hum
  47. # [17:58] <glazou> not sure we have a quorum
  48. # [17:58] <glazou> we'll see
  49. # [18:00] * Joins: Ming (ming.gao@15.243.169.70)
  50. # [18:02] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  51. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, this will be style
  52. # [18:03] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  53. # [18:03] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  54. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, this will be style
  55. # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, glazou, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
  56. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  57. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, Molly_Holzschlag, glazou, Ming
  58. # [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
  59. # [18:04] <Ming> scribenick: Ming
  60. # [18:04] <glazou> regrets from hakon, annevk, innovimax, dsinger and bert
  61. # [18:04] <glazou> håkon
  62. # [18:05] <glazou> howcome
  63. # [18:05] <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea
  64. # [18:05] * Joins: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.9)
  65. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  66. # [18:06] * Joins: Arron (arronei@131.107.0.102)
  67. # [18:07] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  68. # [18:07] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/04-css-irc
  69. # [18:07] <fantasai> regrets from howcome, annevk, innovimax, dsinger, and bert
  70. # [18:07] <fantasai> Zakim, who is here?
  71. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, Molly_Holzschlag, glazou, Ming, plinss, jason_cranfordtea, [Microsoft]
  72. # [18:07] <Ming> daniel: Agenda review
  73. # [18:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Arron, jason_cranfordtea, Zakim, Ming, Molly, glazou, dbaron, trackbot, myakura, fantasai, plinss_, bjoern, jdaggett, plinss, anne, krijnh, Hixie, Bert,
  74. # [18:07] <Zakim> ... hsivonen
  75. # [18:07] <fantasai> ScribeNick: Ming
  76. # [18:07] <Ming> Topic: Charter, by Peter
  77. # [18:08] <Ming> peter: module list updated last week; will send it out this week
  78. # [18:08] <Ming> jason: my note on hypertext link style?
  79. # [18:08] <Ming> fantasai: which note?
  80. # [18:08] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  81. # [18:09] <Ming> jason: regarding pseudo class
  82. # [18:09] <Ming> fantasai: then should go into selector module
  83. # [18:09] <Ming> jason: make sense; though does affect link style
  84. # [18:09] <Ming> jason: ok, agree to cancel my note
  85. # [18:10] <Ming> jason: more about link pseudo class; not a huge thing, from a design point of view
  86. # [18:10] <Ming> daniel: please send the complete list of modules out today, peter.
  87. # [18:10] <Ming> peter: yes
  88. # [18:11] <Ming> fantasai: not talked about whether to do selector 4 module. does not have feedbacks, since f-2-f meeting
  89. # [18:11] <Ming> fantasai: should this be listed in the charter; think it should be in scope
  90. # [18:11] <Ming> daniel: selector was the first thing to work on CSS WG
  91. # [18:12] <Ming> daniel: make it an extension would be a better course.
  92. # [18:12] <Ming> fantasai: ok; I can't disagree with this; would like to hear the implementor's view.
  93. # [18:12] <fantasai> s/would like to hear/I haven't heard/
  94. # [18:12] <Ming> daniel: would like implementor focus on other modules.
  95. # [18:13] <Ming> Topic: background and borders issues
  96. # [18:13] <Ming> daniel: bert and I am working on these issues
  97. # [18:14] <Ming> s/daniel/fantasai/
  98. # [18:14] <Ming> fantasai: would seek implementors' view
  99. # [18:15] <Ming> daniel: is there a third way than accept or reject, i.e. working on this later
  100. # [18:15] <Ming> fantasai: don't want to keep working on the draft, would spend energy somewhere else
  101. # [18:16] <Ming> peter/molly: would have a place to keep the work so far, for next round. don't want losing the work
  102. # [18:16] <Ming> fantasai: has listed some work on the wiki
  103. # [18:16] <Ming> fantasai: is anyone wanting the multiple borders in module 3
  104. # [18:16] <Ming> david b.: yes
  105. # [18:17] <Ming> daniel: anyone else, Microsoft, Opera?
  106. # [18:17] <Ming> arron: can't say for sure; likelt won't need for a while
  107. # [18:17] <Ming> david b.: not sure what is to be implemented
  108. # [18:17] <Ming> fantasai: not sure either
  109. # [18:18] <Ming> daniel: so better to drop it for this round; need more work
  110. # [18:18] <fantasai> dbaron: Mozilla has a multiple borders feature, but I don't think it's what we want here
  111. # [18:18] <Ming> daniel: all agree; done
  112. # [18:18] <fantasai> RESOLVED: no multiple borders in level 3
  113. # [18:18] <Ming> fantasai: percentage border width, issue 26
  114. # [18:19] <Ming> fantasai: any pressing reason to add this?
  115. # [18:19] <Ming> daniel: is there a use case for this?
  116. # [18:19] <Ming> fantasai: don't know one
  117. # [18:19] <Ming> daniel: don't see border width specified this way, rather in pixel; jason?
  118. # [18:20] <Ming> jason: agree. can't think of a use case, percentage border width is to be used.
  119. # [18:20] <dbaron> I would note that one reason you don't see non-pixel borders is that some implementations (e.g., older version of Gecko) will often make them uneven, which isn't what authors want.
  120. # [18:20] <Ming> molly: the only place is scalable design; not someone is practicing these days.
  121. # [18:21] <Ming> david b: see my comments above.
  122. # [18:21] <fantasai> jason: I don't think it will make or break any designs
  123. # [18:21] <fantasai> RESOLVED: no percentage borders
  124. # [18:22] <Ming> daniel: so we can resolve it by not doing this for now
  125. # [18:22] <fantasai> http://bradclicks.com/cssplay/Shadows.html
  126. # [18:23] <fantasai> jason, molly: designers would be very interesting to designers
  127. # [18:23] <Ming> fantasai: next issue: shadows; looking at the pictures
  128. # [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: would this feature give you 5% of what designers want from this, or 80% of what designers want?
  129. # [18:23] <Ming> david b: is this feature to give a substantial feature or just tiny feature
  130. # [18:24] <Ming> daniel/molly/jason: a substantial feature
  131. # [18:24] <Ming> jason: more if can do this like photoshop
  132. # [18:25] <Ming> jason: webfloor effect?
  133. # [18:25] <Ming> daniel: no, just the shadow effect
  134. # [18:25] <Ming> david b: make a distinction between box shadow effect vs text shadow effect
  135. # [18:25] <Ming> fantasai: yes.
  136. # [18:26] <Ming> molly: need to do both
  137. # [18:26] <Ming> david: q: whether we want to pull one feature at a time what SVG can do, for next 20 years?
  138. # [18:27] <Ming> daniel: do we want to do features depending on external engine, or focus on CSS style
  139. # [18:27] <Ming> daniel: suggest this question for SVG/CSS WG joint session
  140. # [18:27] <Ming> molly/david: agree
  141. # [18:28] <Ming> molly: if do shadow effect, can't do a half job, as this is a common feature.
  142. # [18:28] <fantasai> molly: if we're doing shadows, we should do inner shadows
  143. # [18:28] <Ming> molly: in design
  144. # [18:28] <Ming> daniel: any protocol on coordination with SVG features?
  145. # [18:29] <Ming> fantasai: doing it as an inner shadows than external shadows
  146. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: I would probably just add an 'inset' keyword to the shadow
  147. # [18:29] <Ming> daniel: continue working on this box shadow, don't drop it
  148. # [18:29] <fantasai> RESOLVED: continue work on inner shadows
  149. # [18:29] <Ming> daniel: next, positioning from corners
  150. # [18:30] <Ming> fantasai: the current approach might be a bit awkward.
  151. # [18:30] <Ming> fantasai: an alternative approach would require a different syntax.
  152. # [18:30] <fantasai> background-postion: 10px 20px;
  153. # [18:30] <Ming> fantasai: designer would prefer to do it from bottom right.
  154. # [18:31] <fantasai> background-position: bottom 10px right 20px;
  155. # [18:31] <Ming> fantasai: my proposal is to use keyword and position
  156. # [18:31] <Ming> s/position/distance
  157. # [18:31] <Ming> fantasai: from the edge of the element
  158. # [18:32] <Ming> daniel/fantasai: more like to hear what author want to say
  159. # [18:32] <Ming> jason: never really have a case to do it from left or right; could be because I can't do it in the past
  160. # [18:33] <Ming> fantasai: people really want to do from bottom right
  161. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: question is whether to create a syntax for this, or to wait for calc()
  162. # [18:33] <Ming> jason: agree; what is the syntax to write it from right to left
  163. # [18:33] <fantasai> background-position: bottom 10px right 20px;
  164. # [18:34] <fantasai> background-position: start 10px center;
  165. # [18:34] <Ming> fantasai: I am posting some notes to show the syntax
  166. # [18:34] * glazou hates hornets
  167. # [18:34] <Ming> jason: just looking at these syntax, it is hard to understand (by author); maybe easy for computer to understand
  168. # [18:35] <Ming> daniel: Q: do you mean 10 px from righ edge of the box ?
  169. # [18:35] <glazou> s/daniel/peter
  170. # [18:35] <Ming> fantasaI: could be right edge from the right edge(?)
  171. # [18:36] <Ming> david b: calc(?) expression has the percentage in it.
  172. # [18:37] <Ming> david b: two path of calculation, one for image and one for the other
  173. # [18:38] <Ming> jason: creating the padding of what the background is?
  174. # [18:38] <Ming> jason: sometime, need to create both background content and background box
  175. # [18:38] <Ming> daniel: do we have consensus to work on this?
  176. # [18:38] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jan/0365.html
  177. # [18:38] * Quits: myakura (myakura@125.207.238.47) (Quit: Leaving...)
  178. # [18:39] <Ming> fantasai: inclined to add this; maybe put in the next draft and ask for feedbacks
  179. # [18:39] <Ming> daniel: agree, and resolved.
  180. # [18:40] <Ming> fantasai: post my proposal and david b. has some comment. are we ok?
  181. # [18:40] <Ming> daniel: resolved.
  182. # [18:40] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0148.html
  183. # [18:40] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/css3-layout/Overview.html
  184. # [18:40] <Ming> Topic: template layout
  185. # [18:40] <fantasai> Any issues that received no comment in that message will be marked as resolved
  186. # [18:40] <Ming> daniel: can current draft be considered as a working draft?
  187. # [18:41] <Ming> peter: don't see why not
  188. # [18:41] <Ming> peter: the current draft is a year old
  189. # [18:41] <Ming> daniel: this is the third working draft
  190. # [18:42] <Ming> fantasai: think this module need a lot of work, before LC
  191. # [18:42] <Ming> fantasai: though no problem publishing it as working draft for comments
  192. # [18:42] <Ming> daniel: resolved
  193. # [18:42] <Ming> Topic: moving css3-color to LC
  194. # [18:42] <Ming> daniel: several issues
  195. # [18:43] <Ming> s/daniel/david/
  196. # [18:43] <fantasai> dbaron: one about z-index required adding a new paragraph
  197. # [18:43] <fantasai> dbaron: another I proposed no change
  198. # [18:43] <fantasai> dbaron: another I resolved by pulling in diffs from css2.1
  199. # [18:44] <Ming> daniel: no objection to release it to LC; others?
  200. # [18:44] <Ming> fantasai: no comments
  201. # [18:44] <Ming> arron: no objection
  202. # [18:44] <Ming> molly/jason: no objection
  203. # [18:44] <Ming> daniel: resolved: release to last call
  204. # [18:45] <Ming> david b: was in CR and had some comments
  205. # [18:45] <Ming> david: when should we respond to them? will people get confused?
  206. # [18:46] <Ming> daniel: color is something a lot of groups depending on, so good to respond
  207. # [18:46] <dbaron> the question was really about when we publish the disposition of comments
  208. # [18:46] <Ming> Topic: test suite and test review process
  209. # [18:47] <fantasai> Ming: In April I proposed a review process that me, elika and arron put together
  210. # [18:47] <glazou> dbaron: we can have an online document ready but formally not called "DoC"
  211. # [18:47] <fantasai> Ming: to use wiki pages for review comments
  212. # [18:47] <fantasai> Ming: One of the key steps in the process is the peer or approver -- the final review
  213. # [18:47] <fantasai> Ming: Recently Arron and I discussed how a person qualifies to become a peer
  214. # [18:47] <fantasai> Ming: The reviewing is the bulk of the work right now.. it's the bottleneck
  215. # [18:48] <fantasai> Ming: If we're looking at peers we have today, we don't have a lot of active peers
  216. # [18:48] <fantasai> Ming: Maybe David will have time to help more..
  217. # [18:48] <fantasai> Ming: but we lack peer resources
  218. # [18:48] <fantasai> Ming: So I proposed a process for someone with enough creditials to apply for peer status
  219. # [18:49] <fantasai> Ming: My proposal is based on Elika's policy
  220. # [18:49] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/test/css2.1/review
  221. # [18:50] <fantasai> Ming: I took those one step further, and said that person has to review 50-100 testcases across modules and with sufficient complexity
  222. # [18:50] <fantasai> Ming: to demonstrate competency
  223. # [18:50] <fantasai> Ming: When a person applies for peer position, then person has to continue contributing
  224. # [18:50] <fantasai> Ming: e.g. review 30-50 testcases a month
  225. # [18:51] <fantasai> Daniel: Have you discussed this process with W3C management?
  226. # [18:51] <fantasai> dbaron: In open source projects, the rules are less formal.
  227. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: and becoming a peer is more a recognition of the person's status rather than something you apply for
  228. # [18:52] <fantasai> Ming: Then maybe we need another status, not peer, but something like "Approver"
  229. # [18:53] <fantasai> Ming: Someone who demonstrates ability to make high quality comments on testcases
  230. # [18:58] <fantasai> ... some discussion ...
  231. # [18:58] <fantasai> Peter summarizes: We like the idea of having a list of active reviewers. We want a call to the public for more people to join this list and help review tests
  232. # [18:59] <fantasai> We want members of the public to help review tests.
  233. # [19:00] <fantasai> We want to have a list of "final reviewers", and publish process for becoming a final reviewer
  234. # [19:00] <fantasai> Molly: we can publicize through www-style, our blog, Eric Meyer's group, personal blogs
  235. # [19:01] * glazou recommends www-style first then others point to www-style
  236. # [19:02] * Molly agrees with glazou. If we have a single, to the point notice written up that'd be helpful
  237. # [19:04] <fantasai> Elika: I've been waiting for licensing issues to issue a call for help with the test suite
  238. # [19:04] <glazou> fantasai: I can extend the wiki to host comments on the test suite
  239. # [19:04] <fantasai> Elika: There are several ways to help: reviewing testcases, reporting failures, fixing testcases in response to review comments, writing testcases
  240. # [19:05] <fantasai> Peter: We shouldn't hold back on that for issuing a call for reviewers
  241. # [19:05] <fantasai> Elika: Ming and I discussed using the wiki for reviews, should set that up first
  242. # [19:06] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
  243. # [19:06] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  244. # [19:06] <Ming> daniel: meeting adjourned
  245. # [19:06] <Zakim> -plinss
  246. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  247. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  248. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Molly_Holzschlag
  249. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  250. # [19:06] * Parts: Molly (Molly@72.200.79.204)
  251. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  252. # [19:07] <Ming> RRSAgent, make minutes
  253. # [19:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/04-css-minutes.html Ming
  254. # [19:08] <Ming> RRSAgent, make logs public
  255. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Ming
  256. # [19:08] <Ming> quit
  257. # [19:08] * Quits: Ming (ming.gao@15.243.169.70) (Quit: Ming)
  258. # [19:10] <Zakim> -Ming
  259. # [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  260. # [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were fantasai, Molly_Holzschlag, glazou, Ming, plinss, jason_cranfordtea, [Microsoft], David_Baron
  261. # [19:25] * Quits: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.9) (Quit: jason_cranfordtea)
  262. # [20:25] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  263. # [20:34] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  264. # [20:34] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  265. # [20:43] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  266. # [20:45] * bjoern wonders who's fault it is that data:text/html,%3Cpre%3EA&%23x0D;%0AB%3C/pre%3E is rendered as three lines in Firefox, and as two lines in IE and Opera.
  267. # [20:49] * fantasai wonders if that's more an HTML parsing question than a CSS question
  268. # [20:50] * bjoern too, and notes that data:text/xml,%3Cpre%20xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'%3EA&%23x0D;%0AB%3C/pre%3E is only two lines in firefox...
  269. # [21:06] <Hixie> HTML5 defines all that, i believe
  270. # [21:07] <Hixie> well, the first one
  271. # [21:07] <Hixie> the second is an xml problem
  272. # [21:07] <Hixie> the first one should render as two lines, &#xD; gets turned into a single U+000A character upon parsing
  273. # [21:33] <anne> the &#xD; is followed by a newline though
  274. # [21:35] <Hixie> ah, i forgot exactly what happens with that
  275. # [21:35] <Hixie> it's defined though
  276. # [21:36] <Hixie> either way :-)
  277. # [21:45] <anne> I think the current spec says IE and Opera are wrong, it doesn't care much about entities being followed by some character (though this may be a spec problem as it affects those pesty UTF-16 code units of which I forgot the name)
  278. # [21:46] <bjoern> They are called surrogate code points
  279. # [21:46] <bjoern> XML processors read the &#x0d; like any other character reference, so you get CR LF.
  280. # [21:46] <anne> thanks
  281. # [21:47] <anne> in HTML5 it becomes LF I think, there's no way to get CR in the source
  282. # [21:47] <Hixie> if you end up with a CR in the DOM, then it becomes a CSS issue
  283. # [21:50] <anne> 0x0D is mapped to U+000A in HTML5
  284. # [21:50] <anne> see the first table in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenisation.html#tokenising
  285. # [21:50] <anne> there are outstanding comments on that part of the spec i think
  286. # [21:57] <anne> were any decisions made on publishing css-flexbox?
  287. # [21:58] <anne> seems not
  288. # Session Close: Thu Jun 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)