/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-06-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 25 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  20. # [09:14] <bjoern> fwiw, there seems to be a problem with http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html - it declares iso-8859-1 but uses utf-8 ("Rotate the page box 90[bug]").
  21. # [09:26] <Bert> I can fix that. I'll talk to the webmaster this afternoon.
  22. # [09:40] <bjoern> nice!
  23. # [09:40] <bjoern> Good morning Bert!
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  37. # [17:46] <glazou> hello*
  38. # [17:46] <hyatt> glazou: hello
  39. # [17:48] <hyatt> glazou: http://www.css3.info/latest-webkit-nightlies-now-support-css-variables/#comments
  40. # [17:48] <glazou> looking
  41. # [17:48] <hyatt> glazou: comment #5
  42. # [17:48] <hyatt> "But I would really love to see sth like
  43. # [17:48] <hyatt> SomeBigAssSelector = #saf > sagsg + asg + sxz > xvv > sagsg:first-child + sag + xzxb.sfsf > ggs35 > asggs + sgasg35
  44. # [17:48] <hyatt> SomeBigAssSelector {
  45. # [17:48] <hyatt> color: red;
  46. # [17:48] <hyatt> }
  47. # [17:48] <glazou> btw hyatt, did you receive my email ?
  48. # [17:48] <hyatt> SomeBigAssSelector:hover {
  49. # [17:48] <hyatt> color: green;
  50. # [17:48] <hyatt> }"
  51. # [17:49] <glazou> yeah, I don't really like it
  52. # [17:49] <glazou> smells like #define
  53. # [17:49] <hyatt> i don't really get the use case for it
  54. # [17:49] <glazou> me neither
  55. # [17:49] <hyatt> other than less typing
  56. # [17:49] <glazou> yep
  57. # [17:50] <hyatt> i can kind of see the idea of wanting to define a variable to represent a bunch of property/value pairs
  58. # [17:50] <hyatt> but for selectors it seems weird
  59. # [17:50] <glazou> yes
  60. # [17:50] <glazou> agred
  61. # [17:50] <glazou> agreed
  62. # [17:50] <glazou> but I need yo to answer my concern about queries per meda
  63. # [17:50] <glazou> my last privae email
  64. # [17:50] <hyatt> looking
  65. # [17:51] <hyatt> hmmm which one?
  66. # [17:51] <hyatt> i don't have anything unread from you except for the charter mail
  67. # [17:52] <glazou> ah
  68. # [17:52] <glazou> let me resend then
  69. # [17:52] <hyatt> oh i see it
  70. # [17:52] <hyatt> i found it
  71. # [17:52] <glazou> resent
  72. # [17:53] <glazou> ah ok
  73. # [17:54] <glazou> do you see the problem ?
  74. # [17:54] * glazou is melting ; 30 celsius here :-(
  75. # [17:55] <hyatt> yeah
  76. # [17:55] <hyatt> i see the problem
  77. # [17:55] <glazou> ok
  78. # [17:55] <hyatt> it's a question of whether that's needed though
  79. # [17:55] <glazou> I'm sure people will want to apply variables for print
  80. # [17:55] <hyatt> if a site is manipulating its own known stylesheets
  81. # [17:56] <hyatt> it is easy for it to just use CSSVariablesDeclaration
  82. # [17:56] <hyatt> e.g., to just grab the right rule, get its variables declaration, and call setVariable
  83. # [17:56] <hyatt> computed variables are more about not knowing what your current medium may even be
  84. # [17:57] <hyatt> like if i have a viewport-size-based media query
  85. # [17:57] <glazou> yeah
  86. # [17:57] <hyatt> that defines some variables
  87. # [17:57] <hyatt> i don't know when those kick in easily
  88. # [17:57] <hyatt> but for something like print
  89. # [17:57] <hyatt> i know where my variables are for that
  90. # [17:57] <hyatt> and could just set them
  91. # [17:58] <glazou> sounds a viable compromise to me
  92. # [17:58] <glazou> but I wanted to raise the issue
  93. # [17:58] <hyatt> i'm pretty flexible about this
  94. # [17:58] <hyatt> we could make it getComputedCSSVariables(in DOMString optionalMedia)
  95. # [17:58] <glazou> exactly
  96. # [17:58] <hyatt> the problem is answering that question if the media is not the current one in the view
  97. # [17:58] <hyatt> will be slow
  98. # [17:58] <hyatt> since you'll have to evaluate every single @variables rule in all the sheets to figure stuff out
  99. # [17:58] <glazou> ah you mean the rules are not resolved at all...
  100. # [17:58] <glazou> yeah
  101. # [17:59] <glazou> agreed
  102. # [17:59] <hyatt> i mean, not too terrible since the @variables are at the top of sheets
  103. # [17:59] <glazou> let's think about it a day or two ok ?
  104. # [17:59] <hyatt> so you can give up early
  105. # [18:00] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167)
  106. # [18:00] <hyatt> i think it's not a problem to just not support computed vars for other media queries than the current view's default
  107. # [18:00] <hyatt> but am not 100% sure
  108. # [18:00] <glazou> right
  109. # [18:00] <hyatt> the best example i come up with is setting print vars
  110. # [18:00] <glazou> same thing here
  111. # [18:00] <hyatt> and if i'm the author
  112. # [18:00] <glazou> ye
  113. # [18:00] <hyatt> i'd just do that by setting them on the rules
  114. # [18:00] * Joins: George (giorgic@84.215.42.108)
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  116. # [18:02] * glazou dials in
  117. # [18:03] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  118. # [18:04] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  119. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  120. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I don't know what conference this is
  121. # [18:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see George, dsinger, glazou, hyatt, citoyen, plinss, bjoern, trackbot, Arron, jdaggett, Hixie, krijnh, Bert
  122. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, this is css
  123. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, glazou; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  124. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.281.419.aadd
  125. # [18:05] <glazou> citoyen: you're CSS WG member ?
  126. # [18:05] <plinss> zakim, +1.760.741 is plinss
  127. # [18:05] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  128. # [18:05] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  129. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.398.aaaa, +95089aabb, [Microsoft], plinss, +1.281.419.aadd
  130. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Bert
  131. # [18:05] <hyatt> i'm the 1-281- number
  132. # [18:05] <plinss> zakim, +1.281.419 is hyatt
  133. # [18:05] <Zakim> +hyatt; got it
  134. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, +1.281.419.aadd is hyatt
  135. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+1.281.419.aadd'
  136. # [18:05] <dsinger> zakim, I am 408.398.aaaa
  137. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not see a party named '408.398.aaaa'
  138. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.858.655.aaee
  139. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  140. # [18:06] <dsinger> zakim, 408.398.aaaa is dsinger
  141. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '408.398.aaaa'
  142. # [18:06] * Joins: SaloniR (836b0066@128.30.52.43)
  143. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, +1.408.398 is dsinger
  144. # [18:06] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  145. # [18:06] <dsinger> zakim, I am +1.408.398.aaaa
  146. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not see a party named '+1.408.398.aaaa'
  147. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P17
  148. # [18:07] <George> Zakim, ??P17 is me
  149. # [18:07] <Zakim> +George; got it
  150. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, +??P17 is George
  151. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17'
  152. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aaff
  153. # [18:07] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  154. # [18:07] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-css-irc
  155. # [18:08] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  156. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  157. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, +95089aabb, [Microsoft], plinss, hyatt, Bert, +1.858.655.aaee, Melinda_Grant, George, +1.703.265.aaff
  158. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, +95089aabb is me
  159. # [18:08] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  160. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P0
  161. # [18:09] * Joins: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12)
  162. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, ??P0 is Ming
  163. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Ming; got it
  164. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, +1.703.265 is jason_cranfordtea
  165. # [18:09] <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea; got it
  166. # [18:09] <plinss> zakim, +1.858.655 is Ming
  167. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Ming; got it
  168. # [18:10] * Joins: howcome (howcome@71.249.27.82)
  169. # [18:10] * Joins: SteveZ (180671e4@128.30.52.43)
  170. # [18:10] <plinss> zakim, +1.703.265 is jason_cranfordtea
  171. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '+1.703.265'
  172. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  173. # [18:11] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  174. # [18:11] <SaloniR> zakim, Microsoft is me
  175. # [18:11] <Zakim> +SaloniR; got it
  176. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +1.510.981.aagg
  177. # [18:13] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  178. # [18:13] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  179. # [18:13] <plinss> zakim, +1.510.981 is fantasai
  180. # [18:13] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  181. # [18:14] <fantasai> Zakim, who is here?
  182. # [18:14] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, glazou, SaloniR, plinss, hyatt, Bert, Ming.a, Melinda_Grant, George, jason_cranfordtea, Ming, [Microsoft.a], SteveZ, fantasai
  183. # [18:14] <Zakim> On IRC I see fantasai, SteveZ, howcome, jason_cranfordtea, melinda, RRSAgent, SaloniR, Zakim, George, dsinger, glazou, hyatt, citoyen, plinss, bjoern, trackbot, Arron, jdaggett,
  184. # [18:14] <Zakim> ... Hixie, krijnh, Bert
  185. # [18:14] * Joins: Ming (ming.gao@15.243.169.72)
  186. # [18:15] <fantasai> Peter: Any more topics to add to agenda?
  187. # [18:15] <fantasai> <silence>
  188. # [18:15] <fantasai> Topic: Charter
  189. # [18:15] <fantasai> Peter: Daniel had a conversation with Chris via email
  190. # [18:15] <fantasai> Daniel: We sent proposed charter 10 days ago
  191. # [18:16] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008AprJun/0307.html
  192. # [18:16] <fantasai> Daniel: Main concern about charter is too-long list of deliverables.
  193. # [18:16] <fantasai> Daniel: He's afraid W3C management will choke on this
  194. # [18:16] <fantasai> Daniel: The new Domain Leader thinks the list is too long for the time frame. Chris agrees.
  195. # [18:16] <fantasai> Daniel: I said that the list was already a difficult compromise
  196. # [18:17] <fantasai> Daniel: And that the WG wants to preserve the ability to work on these items
  197. # [18:17] <dsinger> would it look better if we split into N working groups, each with a reasonable length list, and we all joined all the groups?
  198. # [18:17] <fantasai> Daniel: But he doesn't think w3cm will find it acceptable.
  199. # [18:17] <dsinger> :-)
  200. # [18:17] <fantasai> Daniel: He looks like the first set looks like it can be done
  201. # [18:18] <melinda> s/He/It/
  202. # [18:18] <fantasai> Daniel: He said we should work on an item in the second set only if it can replace a completed item on the first set
  203. # [18:18] <fantasai> Daniel: And that the last set is unrealistic.
  204. # [18:19] <fantasai> Daniel: Chris said that it is a lot of work for the documents, first. And there is a lot of work to do on the test suites as well.
  205. # [18:19] <fantasai> Daniel: Furthermore there are IPR issues.
  206. # [18:19] <fantasai> Daniel: A Member joining the WG accepts patent policies wrt list of deliverables.
  207. # [18:19] <fantasai> Daniel: That was SteveZ's concern awhile ago
  208. # [18:19] <fantasai> Daniel: A too-long list of deliverables is not encouraging for new members
  209. # [18:20] <fantasai> Daniel: The second big comment about the charter itself is the lack of explanations for each and every module in the list of deliverables.
  210. # [18:20] <fantasai> Daniel: That list is very meaningful for people who know CSS and are involved in the CSSWG.
  211. # [18:20] <fantasai> Daniel: But it is not meaningful for w3cm and AC reps who are not involved in CSS.
  212. # [18:21] <fantasai> Daniel: He proposed adding for each deliverable a brief description, its current status, status of implementations, status of test suite
  213. # [18:21] <fantasai> Daniel: He insisted a lot on the test suite
  214. # [18:21] <fantasai> Daniel: We should show more and better what is our coverage of tests for a given spec
  215. # [18:21] <fantasai> Daniel: Finally, what are the positive things and blockers for the spec
  216. # [18:21] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  217. # [18:22] <fantasai> Daniel: What are the arguments we could give to w3cm to make them accept such a deliverable?
  218. # [18:22] <fantasai> Daniel: As I said wrt test suites..
  219. # [18:22] <fantasai> Daniel: The CSS2.1 test suite says it is incomplete and contains a lot of errors. This is something we have to fix.
  220. # [18:22] <fantasai> Daniel: We have to make all the test suites move forward.
  221. # [18:22] <fantasai> Daniel: I told him that writing complete tests is a huge work, and he agreed with that.
  222. # [18:23] <fantasai> Daniel: Since we don't have a lot of resources in the WG, Chris suggested creating an Interest Group who could help with reviewing of tests and running the implementation against the test to produce implementation reports
  223. # [18:23] <fantasai> Daniel: I objected that individuals in such a group have no legal responsibility if they lie or don't do correct tests.
  224. # [18:24] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.101)
  225. # [18:24] <fantasai> Daniel: He said no, there's a commitment when you join an interest group and an implementation report written by someone outside the browse vendor is as valid as one written by the browser vendor
  226. # [18:24] <fantasai> Daniel: Chris would like to see a new section in the new charter that analyzes the previous charter.
  227. # [18:24] <fantasai> Daniel: What were the successes, what were the failures, what do we need, what did we lack.
  228. # [18:25] <fantasai> s/the previous charter/the results of the previous charter/
  229. # [18:25] <fantasai> Daniel: Last point is minor, we probably need liaison with WebAPI or whatever it's called now because of Selectors API
  230. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: We're sort of doing the Interest Group thing already, informally, on public-css-testsuite
  231. # [18:28] <fantasai> Daniel: an Interest Group is more formal legally, and asks for more commitment
  232. # [18:28] * alexmog thinks cutting the list would just be denial. there *is* a lot of work to be done
  233. # [18:28] <fantasai> Ming: As Elika was saying, a lot of things Chris was suggesting to do, Elika is planning to do.
  234. # [18:29] <fantasai> Ming: We should look at what we're doing, e.g. wrt the review process, and if that is not adequate we can create a group
  235. # [18:30] <fantasai> Daniel: We should start writing test suites when we start writing the spec
  236. # [18:30] <fantasai> Melinda: It makes more sense to start writing tests around when implementations are starting to happen
  237. # [18:31] <fantasai> Daniel: I can see a lot of cases when a browser vendor won't say when they're starting to work on an implementation for competitive reasons
  238. # [18:31] <fantasai> Melinda: We might not always be able to identify that point in time, but I think that's the point we're looking for.
  239. # [18:32] <fantasai> Daniel: We should start writing tests when we feel the spec is starting to stabilize.
  240. # [18:32] <fantasai> Elika: (earlier on) It doesn't make sense to write tests when the drafts is still in the brainstorming phase
  241. # [18:32] <fantasai> Melinda: I don't think this group is very committed to the CSS2.1 test suite
  242. # [18:33] <fantasai> Daniel: So the charter needs more work. We need to spend more time discussing the proposed list of deliverables.
  243. # [18:33] <melinda> s/is very committed to/has a realistic plan for/
  244. # [18:33] <fantasai> Daniel: I perfectly understand the rationale of a long list.
  245. # [18:33] <fantasai> Daniel: But if the result is a rejection by w3cm, then that won't work.
  246. # [18:34] <dsinger> but we can't control what people actually spend their time on
  247. # [18:34] <fantasai> Peter: My concern is what do you define as popping off the stack? Getting to REC? Or not having much to do on it for a few months?
  248. # [18:34] <fantasai> Daniel: Probably the latter. The w3cm's concern is resources.
  249. # [18:34] <fantasai> Peter: I thought that was already our intent.
  250. # [18:34] <fantasai> howcome: I can see the rationale for wanting to cut back because we want to finish.
  251. # [18:34] <fantasai> howcome: but I don't think it will make us not work on other items
  252. # [18:35] <fantasai> howcome: it will only block us from working on some things
  253. # [18:35] <Zakim> -SaloniR
  254. # [18:35] <fantasai> howcome: I don't think we're going to work any faster by cutting down the list.
  255. # [18:35] <fantasai> Jason: I agree. I think it comes back to prioritizing.
  256. # [18:35] <fantasai> Jason: We should work on the high priority items. We shouldn't have to revise the charter to go back and work on soemthing
  257. # [18:36] <fantasai> Daniel: The charter is supposed to be deliverables, not a list if items we want to work on
  258. # [18:36] <fantasai> Daniel: If an item is on a wait list, then that item's chance for success is already questionable.
  259. # [18:36] <fantasai> howcome: We have different opinions on what a charter is.
  260. # [18:37] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Ping timeout)
  261. # [18:37] <fantasai> howcome: I think a charter defines the scope of our work, and if it it has a list of deliverables too, fine.
  262. # [18:37] <fantasai> Daniel: I'm not saying my POV, I'm speaking for management
  263. # [18:37] <fantasai> Steve: The charter is two things, it's what's in scope and what you commit to get done.
  264. # [18:38] <fantasai> howcome: I think the charter should say that we want to be able to work in all these areas
  265. # [18:39] <fantasai> Daniel: Then we put the list in an informative section listing what we might work on, and say that the charter may be extended to include these later
  266. # [18:39] <fantasai> howcome: I think that's too much overhead
  267. # [18:40] <fantasai> Melinda: I don't think the list of things in scope and deliverables need to be one and the same
  268. # [18:40] <fantasai> Steve: Reviewing a one line addition to the charter is pretty quick and straightforward
  269. # [18:41] <fantasai> howcome: I don't think it's that we have X amount of resources that we can point at the pool of work.
  270. # [18:41] <fantasai> howcome: We have different areas of interest.
  271. # [18:41] <fantasai> Daniel: CSSWG is the only WG that is not willing to extend the charter and work like this
  272. # [18:41] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.75)
  273. # [18:41] <fantasai> Daniel: Other working groups accept to have a short list of deliverables and extend the charter to work on other things
  274. # [18:42] <fantasai> howcome: We split our spec up. HTML5 is one item, but it's as big as all CSS3 modules put together
  275. # [18:43] <fantasai> Steve: CSSWG has a bad reputation for not being able to finish anything. I'm not saying it's deserved, but you can see which specs got to REC and ours didn't
  276. # [18:43] <fantasai> Steve: Most other WGs have got RECs already
  277. # [18:43] <fantasai> howcome: Most of which have failed
  278. # [18:43] <fantasai> Peter: What is sounds like Chris is askin for is take everything out of the deliverables except the first group
  279. # [18:44] <fantasai> Peter: Move everything else to a separate section that says these are in scope, but not deliverables.
  280. # [18:44] <fantasai> Daniel: No
  281. # [18:44] <fantasai> Daniel: We can move some items (e.g. Transformations, for which we expect 2 implementations in 6 months) to the first group
  282. # [18:45] <Bert> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/draft-charter2.html
  283. # [18:45] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/proposed-charter.html
  284. # [18:45] <fantasai> dsinger: Chris asked for a table of information about the specs.
  285. # [18:46] <fantasai> dsinger: That would help: some of these specs are very small
  286. # [18:46] <fantasai> dsinger: If W3cm thinks they are all big specs, then of course they would be very concerned.
  287. # [18:46] <fantasai> dsinger: I think building that table is critical.
  288. # [18:46] <fantasai> dsinger: We could e.g. merge animations, transforms, and ? into one line
  289. # [18:46] <fantasai> dsinger: it would look like less work
  290. # [18:46] <fantasai> dsinger: although it's the same
  291. # [18:47] <fantasai> dsinger: the thing to consider is, how big is this spec, and how much work do we expect it to be?
  292. # [18:47] <fantasai> Peter: Who's going to create this table?
  293. # [18:48] <fantasai> dsinger: wiki the list and have everyone fill in the parts they care about
  294. # [18:48] <fantasai> wiki at http://csswg.inkedblade.net/
  295. # [18:48] <fantasai> Peter: That wiki is public
  296. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: the charter's going to be public
  297. # [18:49] <fantasai> Melinda: What are the metrics we're looking at for the specs?
  298. # [18:49] <fantasai> Melinda: number of pages? number of properties?
  299. # [18:49] <fantasai> Melinda: If we want to assess the amount of work, what do we look at?
  300. # [18:50] <fantasai> Daniel: One thing w3cm wants is a measure of how big the test suite will be
  301. # [18:50] <fantasai> Melinda: Many tests won't be at a point where we can count test assertions
  302. # [18:50] <fantasai> Jason: When we do req docs, we give a "level of effort" score.
  303. # [18:50] <fantasai> Jason: Would we want to give a scale?
  304. # [18:51] <dsinger> yes, small/medium/large on the spec. and the test suite would seem to be enough
  305. # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: I think we should do it in prose
  306. # [18:51] <dsinger> agree
  307. # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: This is a large effort, it will take many man-years. This is a small effort it will take a few months.
  308. # [18:51] <glazou> agreed
  309. # [18:51] <dsinger> the test suite is a few dozens of tests, the test suite is many hundred or thousands of tests...
  310. # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: who's going to set up the template wiki page?
  311. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: I can do that, I just need a clear idea as what blanks need to be there.
  312. # [18:53] <fantasai> Items for each record:
  313. # [18:53] <fantasai> brief description
  314. # [18:53] <fantasai> status of the document
  315. # [18:53] <fantasai> (including anticipated next state of document)
  316. # [18:53] <fantasai> status of implementations
  317. # [18:53] <fantasai> status of test suite
  318. # [18:54] <fantasai> (status includes expectations)
  319. # [18:54] <fantasai> issues/blocking items
  320. # [18:54] <fantasai> reasons why we want this, why it's important
  321. # [18:54] <fantasai> link to the spec
  322. # [18:55] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
  323. # [18:55] <fantasai> is a good starting point
  324. # [18:55] <dsinger> is the spec. small/large, is the test suite small/large?
  325. # [18:55] <fantasai> Daniel: This solves the problem of information about the documents
  326. # [18:55] <fantasai> Daniel: What do we do about the list of deliverables?
  327. # [18:55] <dsinger> my bet is that this exercise will do some thinning...
  328. # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: Do we move the rest of the items to an informative section? Move it to the scope section?
  329. # [18:56] <fantasai> Steve: Keep it normative, move it to scope section
  330. # [18:57] <fantasai> Peter: We move things from scope to charter as charter revisions when something needs to move through REC track
  331. # [18:57] <fantasai> Peter: leaving it in the scope section, that allows us to do work on them, but not move them along the REC track
  332. # [18:58] <fantasai> Peter: We shouldn't have to update the charter to let someone work on an editor's draft
  333. # [18:59] <fantasai> Daniel: I think working on an editor's draft is not a problem. FPWD is an issue
  334. # [19:01] <fantasai> Peter: In order to the move something along the REC track, we'll send a note to the AC asking to shift the line from the Scope to the Deliverables section
  335. # [19:03] <fantasai> Melinda and howcome have concerns about items getting stuck and not moving, esp Paged Media and Multicol
  336. # [19:03] <fantasai> Peter: Those groups are not set in stone. Once we fill out the table, we can shift items around.
  337. # [19:04] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai make table template
  338. # [19:04] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  339. # [19:04] * RRSAgent records action 1
  340. # [19:04] <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Make table template [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-07-02].
  341. # [19:05] <fantasai> Peter: All advocates need to fill out their module's info
  342. # [19:05] <fantasai> RESOLUTION: Make table with information about specs
  343. # [19:06] <fantasai> RESOLUTION: Create short list of deliverables, put other items in a normative scope section
  344. # [19:06] <fantasai> Peter: I like the idea of an interest group for test suites, everyone give some thought to that
  345. # [19:06] <dsinger> thanks, bye
  346. # [19:06] * Quits: Ming (ming.gao@15.243.169.72) (Quit: Ming)
  347. # [19:06] <Zakim> -hyatt
  348. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  349. # [19:06] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
  350. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Ming
  351. # [19:06] <Zakim> -dsinger
  352. # [19:07] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  353. # [19:07] <Zakim> -Ming.a
  354. # [19:07] <Zakim> -plinss
  355. # [19:07] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Quit: melinda)
  356. # [19:07] <Zakim> -glazou
  357. # [19:07] <Zakim> -fantasai
  358. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  359. # [19:07] <Zakim> -George
  360. # [19:07] <Zakim> -Bert
  361. # [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  362. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.760.741.aacc, +1.281.419.aadd, plinss, Bert, hyatt, +1.858.655.aaee, Melinda_Grant, dsinger, George, +1.703.265.aaff, glazou, Ming,
  363. # [19:07] <Zakim> ... jason_cranfordtea, SteveZ, SaloniR, +1.510.981.aagg, fantasai
  364. # [19:07] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.75) (Quit: sylvaing)
  365. # [19:07] <glazou> hyatt: sorry we did not have time for variables but the charter discussion was urgent
  366. # [19:07] * Quits: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12) (Quit: jason_cranfordtea)
  367. # [19:08] * Quits: howcome (howcome@71.249.27.82) (Ping timeout)
  368. # [19:10] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167) (Quit: dsinger)
  369. # [19:15] * Parts: George (giorgic@84.215.42.108)
  370. # [19:28] * Quits: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  371. # [19:49] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.101) (Quit: alexmog)
  372. # [20:04] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  373. # [20:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  374. # [20:04] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
  375. # [20:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-css-minutes.html fantasai
  376. # [20:04] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  377. # [20:04] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-css-irc#T18-00-13
  378. # [20:12] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139) (Ping timeout)
  379. # [20:23] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  380. # [20:23] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  381. # [20:26] * Quits: SaloniR (836b0066@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  382. # [20:44] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/charter-2008
  383. # [22:59] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  384. # [22:59] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  385. # [23:06] * Joins: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@121.116.149.86)
  386. # [23:06] * Quits: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@121.116.149.86) (Quit: jdaggett_)
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  389. # [23:30] <Bert> Fantasai, the CSS1 and CSS2 Recs just got their red-bordered warning note.
  390. # [23:30] <Bert> But, Bjoern, the encoding error in CSS21 may have to wait.
  391. # [23:31] <Bert> IanJ thinks it doesn't need fixing, because the spec will be updated in a few weeks or months anyway.
  392. # [23:32] <Bert> (I fixed our internal draft in preparation.)
  393. # [23:44] <bjoern> It seems it took one year to notice the problem, I don't think it's critical to fix :)
  394. # [23:46] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.104)
  395. # Session Close: Thu Jun 26 00:00:00 2008

The end :)