/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-07-02 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 02 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:07] * Quits: Ming (ming.gao@15.243.169.70) (Quit: Ming)
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# [02:01] <fantasai> dbaron: I updated the status section of CSS3 Color for you
# [02:01] <dbaron> fantasai, did you commit to both group and public repositories?
# [02:01] <fantasai> no
# [02:01] <fantasai> just the public one
# [02:02] <dbaron> I can fix
# [02:02] <fantasai> ok
# [02:02] <fantasai> you can probably also send in a publication date request
# [02:03] <fantasai> I think I sent instructions on that? if not, let me know and I'll point you to an example..
# [02:05] <fantasai> oh, and you also need to add a link to the test suite
# [02:05] <fantasai> somewhere
# [02:05] <dbaron> I thought there was one
# [02:06] <fantasai> ah, right
# [02:06] * fantasai was looking in the status section
# [02:08] <dbaron> why are people renaming entries in biblio.ref?
# [02:09] <dbaron> er, rather, removing (CSSUI removed in 1.96; I guess I should switch to CSS3UI)
# [02:13] <dbaron> "Each feature may be implemented by a
# [02:13] <dbaron> + different set of products, there is no requirement that all features be
# [02:13] <dbaron> + implemented by a single product."
# [02:13] <dbaron> that's not correct English. It should be two sentences or separated by ;
# [02:19] <dbaron> fantasai, I remember seeing your instructions on pub request, but I can't find them
# [02:24] <dbaron> did the chairs bring up the last call in the HCG?
# [02:24] <dbaron> or does that need to happen before the pub request?
# [02:59] * Parts: anne (annevk@131.107.204.126)
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# [08:21] <fantasai> dbaron, sorry I had to run
# [08:22] * fantasai looks up that email
# [08:22] <dbaron> not sure it was brought up on HCG, though
# [08:22] <fantasai> I didn't think it needed to be
# [08:23] <fantasai> last time we discussed it the only blocker people mentioned was getting Bert to review the status section
# [08:23] <fantasai> could be wrong
# [08:24] <fantasai> dbaron: sample pub request for a LCWD http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008AprJun/0171.html
# [08:26] <dbaron> ok, I'll look tomorrow
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# [17:51] <glazou> hi
# [17:57] <fantasai> glazou: does dbaron need clearance from the HCG to publish css3-color LC?
# [17:58] <fantasai> glazou: or can he submit a pub request today?
# [17:58] <glazou> just a sec please
# [17:59] <glazou> fantasai: clearance needed
# [17:59] <fantasai> k
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# [18:00] <fantasai> do we need to discuss that on the telecon, then?
# [18:01] <glazou> among other things....
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# [18:02] <glazou> hello Zakim
# [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, this is css
# [18:02] <Zakim> glazou, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be css".
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# [18:02] <fantasai> Zakim, this is css
# [18:02] <Zakim> ok, fantasai; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [18:03] <fantasai> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Ming, fantasai
# [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, Zakim, Ming, George, glazou, myakura, bjoern_h, anne, Hixie, Arron, citoyen, krijnh, fantasai, Bert, plinss, trackbot, jdaggett
# [18:03] <glazou> D'OH my phone is out of order, hold on a sec please
# [18:03] <Zakim> +dsinger
# [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou
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# [18:05] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:05] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:06] <Zakim> +glazou
# [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Ming, fantasai, dsinger, plinss, Bert, glazou
# [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see SteveZ, dsinger, Zakim, Ming, George, glazou, myakura, bjoern_h, anne, Hixie, Arron, citoyen, krijnh, fantasai, Bert, plinss, trackbot, jdaggett
# [18:06] <Zakim> +??P35
# [18:06] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:07] <George> Zakim, ??P35 is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +George; got it
# [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, ??P35 is George
# [18:07] <Zakim> I already had ??P35 as George, glazou
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# [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:09] <Ming> scribenick: Ming
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# [18:09] <Zakim> +David_Baron
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# [18:10] <Ming> Topic: update on new CSS charter
# [18:10] <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea
# [18:10] <Ming> daniel: looked at wiki; agreement is by end of the week, it will be closed.
# [18:11] <Ming> fantasai: two things outstanding, will ping the author
# [18:11] <fantasai> anne: you need to fill out http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/charter-2008#css-object-model-level-3
# [18:11] <Ming> daniel: has integrated the comments into the wiki
# [18:12] <fantasai> s/the comments/Bert's comments on CSS Variables/
# [18:12] <Ming> daniel: won't stop working on it, just if someone is against it
# [18:12] <Ming> daniel: integrate comments to wiki if possible, but won't start another long discussion for that
# [18:12] <dsinger> there certainly should not be a presumption that we are in agreement, in order to work on something...
# [18:13] <Ming> bert: a general question: in addition to the integrating into wiki, what about other comments
# [18:13] <Ming> david b: previous agreement on advocates on documents?
# [18:13] <Ming> daniel: yes
# [18:13] <Ming> peter: will look for the agreement and distribute
# [18:13] <Ming> daniel: talk to advocates about your comments
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# [18:14] <Ming> david h: working draft is where we need consensus, not at the charter stage(?)
# [18:14] <Ming> steve: have comments at both stages are appropriate?
# [18:14] <Ming> daniel: yes.
# [18:15] <Ming> daniel: maximum amount of info on the documents
# [18:16] <Ming> steve: confused. thought we agree on shortening the deliverable list and provide a catalog in the scope section
# [18:16] <Ming> daniel: mean the specification
# [18:16] <Ming> daniel: anyone to add to the charter now?
# [18:17] <Ming> peter: interest group for the test suite, need to be documented in the charter?
# [18:17] <Ming> fantasai: not yet.
# [18:17] <Ming> daniel: wiki is done, so the charter is to be resubmitted
# [18:18] <Ming> fantasai: apple's comments to be integrated to wiki; will forward to david hyatt
# [18:18] <Ming> fantasai: mean comments from me.
# [18:18] <Ming> steve: are we redefining the deliverable list?
# [18:18] <Ming> peter: on the list, are those ready to move to Rec.
# [18:19] <Ming> david h: need to have test suite to these deliverables. had some discussion yesterday.
# [18:19] <Ming> fantasai: what about things that could make to CR?
# [18:19] <Ming> peter: will have them in scope section
# [18:20] <Ming> fantasai: border work, etc; won't be able to do?
# [18:20] <Ming> fantasai: working draft?
# [18:20] <Ming> daniel: correct.
# [18:20] <Bert> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/proposed-charter.html
# [18:21] <Ming> david H: not able to publishing working draft, is a circular problem. ie. won't able to work on test suite
# [18:21] <dsinger> dave S, not Dave H, by the way (sorry, too many Daves at Apple)
# [18:21] <Ming> fantasai: page media should be in the deliverable list; ready to publish working draft.
# [18:22] <fantasai> s/ready/almost ready/
# [18:22] <fantasai> s/workign draft/last call/
# [18:22] <Ming> daniel: had discussed last week; won't able to extend too long; no problem just adding one item, e.g. page media.
# [18:22] <Ming> steve: what was the problem?
# [18:23] <Ming> steve: observing an issue working with anothe WG.
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# [18:24] <Ming> saloni: what is being dropped?
# [18:24] <Ming> fantasai: everything except on the top list
# [18:24] <Ming> steve: move page media up?
# [18:24] <Ming> daniel: no objection; yes.
# [18:25] <Ming> david h: need to inform the mobile group if they have a dependency on marque(?)
# [18:25] <Ming> Topic: Media Queries Disposition of Comments
# [18:25] <dsinger> to Ming - this is Dave S of Apple, not Dave H (can you adjust the notes for the minutes?)
# [18:25] <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-mediaqueries/disposition.html
# [18:26] <Ming> daniel: everyone get a chance to review the disposition (see the link)
# [18:26] <Ming> steve: sent comments last Tuesday
# [18:26] <Ming> David B: several issues: one of which is related to some changes there.
# [18:27] <Ming> daniel: so the action item for anne or howcome.
# [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron and fantasai had substantive comments
# [18:27] <Ming> steve/fantasai/bert: we have comments
# [18:28] <Ming> steve: sent to anne, our comments?
# [18:28] <Ming> david b: some of them will require discussion.
# [18:28] <Ming> david b: ws is obvious, but the error handling would need discussion
# [18:28] <Ming> daniel: need Anne in the next call.
# [18:29] <Ming> Topic: CSS Variables Issues
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# [18:29] <Ming> daniel: this is implemented in Safari.
# [18:29] <Ming> daniel: need further improvement.
# [18:30] <Ming> daniel: adding a new API to handle the issue
# [18:30] <Ming> daniel: got a lot of feedbacks and enhancements
# [18:30] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [18:31] <fantasai> one issue is scope of variable definition
# [18:31] <fantasai> scoped to single style sheet? cross @import boundaries?
# [18:31] <fantasai> document-global?
# [18:31] <fantasai> daniel: working on a new editor's draft
# [18:32] <fantasai> daniel: we keep crossing @import boundaries
# [18:32] <fantasai> daniel: important for having e.g. a corporate style sheet with variables for corporate colors
# [18:32] <fantasai> daniel: leaning towards document-global, still have to discuss it
# [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai's preference would be to cross @import, but not document-global
# [18:33] <fantasai> Steve: I understand the need for global variable settings, but that would seem to be at the document level or @import..
# [18:33] <fantasai> Steve: I would be more concerned that style sheets further down the line get unexpected variable definitions
# [18:33] <fantasai> Steve: standard modularization problems
# [18:34] <fantasai> daniel: still working on document, hyatt is implementing as he writes (as always)
# [18:34] <fantasai> daniel: expect feedback on anything we do
# [18:34] <fantasai> Topic: Accessibility of Generated Content
# [18:35] <fantasai> daniel: more and more websites use generated content to insert real content in websites
# [18:35] <fantasai> daniel: e.g. wikipedia
# [18:35] <fantasai> daniel: all geolocation information in wikipedia is inserted using GC
# [18:35] <fantasai> daniel: it's a perversion of the system, it's not something we can forbid
# [18:35] <fantasai> daniel: but it deserves a nice warning in CSS2.1 spec to say that this is bad practice
# [18:35] <fantasai> daniel: it also deserves let's say a blog entry about it
# [18:36] <fantasai> daniel: and if we can tell the Web Standards Project about
# [18:36] <fantasai> peter: why is it bad for accessibility?
# [18:36] <fantasai> daniel: because information is not in the document tree
# [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: CSS is supposed to be optional
# [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: for enhancement, not for content
# [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: what if I load a page in Lynx? I'd miss half the content
# [18:37] <fantasai> daniel: separation of content and style
# [18:38] <fantasai> steve: you also might replace the style for accessibility reasons, which would also make the content inaccessible
# [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai suggests Bert write the entry
# [18:39] <fantasai> ACTION: glazman get Bert and his accessibility friend in contact
# [18:39] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Get Bert and his accessibility friend in contact [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-07-09].
# [18:39] <fantasai> ACTION: Bert write blog entry on generated content, accesibility, and separation of content and style
# [18:39] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-72 - Write blog entry on generated content, accesibility, and separation of content and style [on Bert Bos - due 2008-07-09].
# [18:40] <fantasai> Topic: Generated Content on
# [18:40] <fantasai> daniel: the specification has an example of being defiend as br:before { content: '\A'; }
# [18:40] <fantasai> daniel: in fact the behavior of is completely undefined in HTML, so each implementation has a different interpretation of
# [18:41] <fantasai> daniel: so GC on is not predictable
# [18:41] <fantasai> daniel: for a text editor br:before { content: <paragrah symbol> } would be extremely useful
# [18:41] <fantasai> daniel: it would make sense to define better the behavior of
# [18:42] <dsinger> isn't line break what Unicode calls newline function <http://unicode.org/reports/tr13/tr13-9.html>?
# [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with bz, who suggested br { content: '\A' }
# [18:42] <dbaron> that doesn't solve Daniel's problem
# [18:43] <fantasai> br { content: 'P\A'; }
# [18:43] <fantasai> daniel: we should normalize interpretation of
# [18:43] <dbaron> ok, right, but the author has to re-specify the part that's in the UA style sheet
# [18:44] <fantasai> if :before isn't replaced by 'content' then it should work
# [18:44] <Saloni> br is treated as a replaced element correct? would the definition br { content'\A'} be in line with this?
# [18:44] <fantasai> saloni, scroll up :)
# [18:44] <fantasai> peter: I think inserting a line feed with GC is a hack
# [18:45] <fantasai> peter: I felt we should have a line-breaking property
# [18:45] <fantasai> Bert: we tried that. It didn't work with existing implementations
# [18:45] <fantasai> Bert: creates two line breaks
# [18:45] <Zakim> -dsinger
# [18:45] <fantasai> Bert: could argue that creating two line breaks was stupid, but it was what Netscape did a long time ago
# [18:46] <Zakim> +dsinger
# [18:46] <dsinger> that is what two Unicode newlines do, though...
# [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's a good to define at some point, but not going to solve today
# [18:46] <fantasai> Topic: Selectors
# [18:47] <fantasai> daniel: I have a few things to add to document, but I'm more concerned about test suite
# [18:47] <fantasai> daniel: test suite is huge, lots of test in many contexts
# [18:47] <fantasai> daniel lists various cases
# [18:47] <fantasai> daniel: it's probably too long
# [18:47] <fantasai> daniel: I think it's trying to test everything in all cases, and we'll never be able to do that
# [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: we have implementation reports, we just need to update them to the latest implementations
# [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: I think it'll be much easier to fill them out and push them out
# [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: than to redefine anything
# [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: I believe I published an updated implementation report template for the current test suite
# [18:49] <fantasai> daniel: If we can have implementation reports from Mozilla, Opera, Microsoft, etc
# [18:49] <fantasai> daniel: that would help
# [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: someone should dig up the template URL and send it around
# [18:50] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/20060307/implementreportTEMPLATE.html
# [18:50] <fantasai> daniel: once charter is done I should have more time to work on this
# [18:50] <fantasai> daniel: and I will fix the remaining items so this can move forward
# [18:50] <dbaron> I think it took me 1-2 hours to do an implementation report, including going through all the versions of the tests.
# [18:51] <dbaron> It helps to have an implementation that preserves focus after using the browser's "back" feature.
# [18:51] <fantasai> ACTION: glazman talk with HCG about publishing css3-color
# [18:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Talk with HCG about publishing css3-color [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-07-09].
# [18:51] <fantasai> ACTION: peter talk with HCG about publishing css3-color
# [18:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-74 - Talk with HCG about publishing css3-color [on Peter Linss - due 2008-07-09].
# [18:52] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-35 is open, but needs time for discussion
# [18:52] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-45 is open
# [18:53] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jun/0177.html
# [18:53] <fantasai> this is a request for clarification
# [18:54] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
# [18:55] <dsinger> no opinion...sorry...
# [18:55] <glazou> no opinion is an opinion dsinger :)
# [18:56] * Parts: anne (annevk@65.219.168.142)
# [18:56] <fantasai> ACTION everone get an opinion on proposal for issue 45 for next week
# [18:56] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:56] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - everone
# [18:57] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-52
# [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: question is should page-break-* apply to ?
# [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: page-break-before/after currently only apply to block-level elements
# [19:01] <fantasai> everyone is bothered by not behaving like a normal CSS element
# [19:01] <dsinger> apropos the BR discussion, Google found this: The global structure of an HTML document
# [19:01] <dsinger> Generally, block-level elements begin on new lines, inline elements do not. For information about white space, line breaks, and block formatting, ...
# [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai: the only way to do this is to special-case the HTML element in CSS2.1
# [19:02] <fantasai> fantasai doesn't want to do this
# [19:02] <fantasai> alex: we already do that for 'clear'
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# [19:04] <fantasai> dbaron: the HTML notion of inline vs block is different from the CSS notion
# [19:04] <fantasai> glazou: is part of the inline group of elements in the DTD
# [19:07] <fantasai> glazman: should we have a joint discussion with HTMLWG about at TPAC?
# [19:07] <fantasai> Bert, peter: don't see what they would have to say about it
# [19:07] <fantasai> Bert, peter: we're not discussing usage in markup
# [19:07] <fantasai> ACTION: peter add to Cambridge F2F agenda
# [19:07] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [19:07] <trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Add to Cambridge F2F agenda [on Peter Linss - due 2008-07-09].
# [19:07] <dbaron> I'm not sure whether is that critical an issue...
# [19:08] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-51
# [19:08] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:08] <Zakim> -George
# [19:08] * fantasai agrees with dbaron
# [19:08] <Zakim> -dsinger
# [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:08] <Zakim> -David_Baron
# [19:08] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:08] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
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# [19:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
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# [19:11] <Zakim> -Ming
# [19:11] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:11] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were Ming, fantasai, dsinger, plinss, glazou, Bert, SteveZ, George, [Microsoft], David_Baron, jason_cranfordtea
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# [19:36] <fantasai> anne: you need to fill out the CSSOM parts of http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/charter-2008
# [19:37] <anne> hmm, I guess I should
# [19:37] <Hixie> note that to resolve the conflict in the definitions of "inline" and "block" between css and html, html5 has removed the terms "block" and "inline" entirely from the language
# [19:39] <anne> wow, ACTION-75
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# [20:00] <anne> ok, done
# [20:15] * Quits: SteveZ (180671e4@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [20:19] <fantasai> anne: looks good
# [20:27] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [20:27] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [21:03] <fantasai> ACTION: peter update wiki page with advocates from March F2F list
# [21:03] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [21:03] <trackbot> Created ACTION-76 - Update wiki page with advocates from March F2F list [on Peter Linss - due 2008-07-09].
# [21:06] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
# [21:31] <fantasai> sylvaing: do you know who was on the call from MSFT today?
# [21:31] <fantasai> sylvaing: I heard Alex and Saloni, but I don't know if anyone else was there
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# [21:48] <sylvaing> client just disconnected. Alex, Saloni and I were in the same conf room during the call
# [21:49] <sylvaing> I believe Arron was on as well
# [21:57] <fantasai> sylvaing: thanks
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 03 00:00:01 2008

The end :)