/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-07-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 16 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  17. # [18:03] <plinss> zakim, this is style
  18. # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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  20. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
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  27. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai
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  29. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P19
  30. # [18:07] <George> Zakim, ??P19 is me
  31. # [18:07] <Zakim> +George; got it
  32. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
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  34. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  35. # [18:10] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  36. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  37. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, plinss, Bert, Ming, jason_cranfordtea, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, George, [Mozilla]
  38. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  39. # [18:12] * Joins: Arron (arronei@131.107.0.106)
  40. # [18:12] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  41. # [18:13] <fantasai> Topic: Charter
  42. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  43. # [18:13] <fantasai> Peter: I updated charter with Chris's feedback
  44. # [18:13] <fantasai> Peter: Any comments?
  45. # [18:13] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/draft-charter2.html
  46. # [18:13] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/proposed-charter.html
  47. # [18:14] <fantasai> Melinda: I have a concern
  48. # [18:14] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.73) (Ping timeout)
  49. # [18:14] <fantasai> Melinda: Bullet number three we say "..."
  50. # [18:14] <fantasai> Melinda: We should say for each feature
  51. # [18:15] <fantasai> Melinda: It sounds like we musth have two complete implementations of the entire CSS2.1 rather than two implementations of each feature, etc.
  52. # [18:15] <fantasai> Peter needs to check the process document
  53. # [18:15] <melinda> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/
  54. # [18:15] <fantasai> David: Why was the wording about potentially merging and splitting modules taken out?
  55. # [18:16] <fantasai> Peter: Since adding new modules would be done by amending the charter anyway
  56. # [18:16] <fantasai> David: What would happen with the SVG features module that's being discussed?
  57. # [18:16] <fantasai> David: Does that require rechartering?
  58. # [18:16] <melinda> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfr #2
  59. # [18:16] <fantasai> David: Does it require amending the charter?
  60. # [18:16] <fantasai> David: Or can we just do it?
  61. # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  62. # [18:17] <fantasai> Melinda: I didn't see any wording in the charter said that items not in the deliverables list can't be advanced along REC track
  63. # [18:17] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.104)
  64. # [18:18] <fantasai> Peter: I didn't want to specifically call that out
  65. # [18:18] <fantasai> Peter: We do want to focus on our deliverables and not get sidetracked
  66. # [18:18] <fantasai> Peter: but I also don't want us to get stuck in charter process
  67. # [18:19] <fantasai> Peter: Wrt CSS-SVG thing.. I'm not sure if that fits our definition of working with other groups
  68. # [18:19] <fantasai> Melinda: We might want to ask Chris how he thinks we should handle these kinds of emergent things
  69. # [18:20] <fantasai> dsinger: On the subject on other material, we can always discuss things on the mailing list and work on it
  70. # [18:20] <fantasai> dsinger: but getting formal time on it, that requires having it in the charter
  71. # [18:20] <fantasai> Peter: our focus should be driving our deliverables to REC
  72. # [18:21] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.104)
  73. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: I can see this CSS-SVG thing advancing quickly enough that we might have multiple implementations by the end of this charter period
  74. # [18:21] * Bert notices a symmetry: after 2 Recs in 11 years, we now promise 11 Recs in 2 years...
  75. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: Do we want to just let that slip?
  76. # [18:22] <fantasai> Peter: how do we split this with SVG?
  77. # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: I think if we're adding features to CSS, it should be in CSS
  78. # [18:22] <fantasai> Peter: Isn't there something about changing interpretations of SVG?
  79. # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: there might have been a few details
  80. # [18:22] <melinda> Bert, what could go wrong?
  81. # [18:22] <Bert> :-)
  82. # [18:23] <fantasai> Peter: I'll make a note to ask Chris about cross-group issues, where that should live in our charter, using this as an example
  83. # [18:23] <fantasai> ACTION: Peter talk with Chris about cross-group issues
  84. # [18:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  85. # [18:23] * RRSAgent records action 1
  86. # [18:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Talk with Chris about cross-group issues [on Peter Linss - due 2008-07-23].
  87. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: I think 11 RECs is a bit much
  88. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: We have a list of priority things...
  89. # [18:24] <fantasai> Bert: You really think we can make 11 RECs in just two years?
  90. # [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: Why did Paged Media get bumped up?
  91. # [18:24] <fantasai> Elika: We're planning to publish Last Call this year
  92. # [18:25] <fantasai> Elika: Doesn't make sense to amend charter right after it gets approved
  93. # [18:25] <fantasai> Peter: A lot of the things in the list are small and/or far along
  94. # [18:26] <fantasai> Elika: A lot of them depend on CSS2.1
  95. # [18:26] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  96. # [18:26] <fantasai> Melinda: I think even if we only worked on CSS2.1, it would be a stretch to finish it in 2 years
  97. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai agrees
  98. # [18:27] <fantasai> Bert still thinks variables should not be on our charter
  99. # [18:28] <fantasai> Bert: That's an architectural concern, not a process concern
  100. # [18:28] <dsinger> perhaps each of the 11 should have a calendar, to show what needs done by when
  101. # [18:28] * Joins: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203)
  102. # [18:28] <fantasai> Peter: I hear your argument, but if we have implementors who want to work on it, we need to work on a spec otherwise it'll happen outside the standardization process
  103. # [18:29] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
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  105. # [18:29] <fantasai> dsinger: I wonder if for each of the 11 we have a calendar to show what needs to be done by when
  106. # [18:30] <fantasai> dsinger: otherwise we'll procrastinate until the end of the 2 years and realize that we can't finish them all
  107. # [18:32] <fantasai> Melinda: We maybe don't need it in the charter, but it would be a good companion document
  108. # [18:32] <fantasai> Peter: Do we call out dependencies anywhere?
  109. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Most docs depend on CSS2.1. If it doesn't make it, most things won't make it
  110. # [18:33] <anne> Regrets + anne
  111. # [18:33] <anne> (also for the next three weeks, as I'm on holiday)
  112. # [18:33] <fantasai> Melinda: only Selectors doesn't
  113. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: Should put that in the charter. Any other dependencies can be tweaked out, but anything that depends on CSS2.1 depends on CSS2.1
  114. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: If 2.1 doesn't make it to REC, almost nothing else will no matter how ready
  115. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: Only Selectors and Media Queries are independent
  116. # [18:38] <fantasai> Peter: I will call out the dependency on 2.1 in the charter
  117. # [18:39] <fantasai> ACTION: Peter update charter in response to Melinda's comment on CR crit and 2.1 ep
  118. # [18:39] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  119. # [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 2
  120. # [18:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - Update charter in response to Melinda's comment on CR crit and 2.1 ep [on Peter Linss - due 2008-07-23].
  121. # [18:39] <fantasai> Topic: Color Module
  122. # [18:39] <fantasai> Peter: We have permission to publish LC
  123. # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: Chris says we don't need to ask for permission here
  124. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: That was the transition request. What about the pub request?
  125. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: Did you request a publication date?
  126. # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: no
  127. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: I'll work on that then
  128. # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: Where are we with implementation reports?
  129. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: We're in good shape for implementations, but don't have reports
  130. # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: Can we generate those by the end of the LC period?
  131. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: Once the LC is published, the test suite will reflect a published spec
  132. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: then we can request implementation reports
  133. # [18:41] <fantasai> ACTION: dbaron prepare implementation report template for CSS3 Color
  134. # [18:41] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  135. # [18:41] * RRSAgent records action 3
  136. # [18:41] <trackbot> Created ACTION-80 - Prepare implementation report template for CSS3 Color [on David Baron - due 2008-07-23].
  137. # [18:41] <fantasai> Topic: Marquee
  138. # [18:41] <fantasai> Peter: Ready for LC?
  139. # [18:42] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.104) (Quit: sylvaing)
  140. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: no. Still some issues with marquee-direction table
  141. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: sent message to www-style this morning
  142. # [18:46] <fantasai> Peter: Let's not get into the technical discussion here
  143. # [18:47] <fantasai> Peter: revisit in a week
  144. # [18:47] <fantasai> Topic: Test Suite Harness
  145. # [18:47] <fantasai> Peter: Wanted to let everyone know that there's a demo version online
  146. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: what does it do?
  147. # [18:48] <Bert> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/test-harness-css/
  148. # [18:48] <fantasai> MWI test harness it is based off of : http://www.w3.org/2007/03/mth/harness
  149. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: it's Member-only until Dom has a chance to review the code
  150. # [18:50] <fantasai> Peter: the goal is to make it easy to do implementation reports
  151. # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: The other thing I want to discuss, we've been tossing idea of building a test management system
  152. # [18:51] * Bert sees the report generator currently crashes :-)
  153. # [18:51] <anne> (FWIW, I think both Media Queries and Selectors have a grammar dependency on CSS 2.1)
  154. # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: Allow people to submit tests, manage reviews and approvals, etc.
  155. # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: I don't think there's anything out there, we'd have to build one
  156. # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: HP is interested in contributing resources, wanted to put out a call to see if anyone else is interested
  157. # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: I'm not asking for answers or commitments, just give a thought
  158. # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: If there are questions about why or what's the value, let's hear them
  159. # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: I think having a system like this rapidly in place would be a big win for us, for CSS2.1 test suite in particular
  160. # [18:53] <fantasai> Peter: If there's something open source out there that we can use, can be modified, etc. that will get us there rapidly, let us know?
  161. # [18:53] <fantasai> Peter: We could use any able-bodied hands that can write PHP or whatever
  162. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: I wonder if we're being too picky about review reqs for the test suite
  163. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Maybe we don't need as formal a review process as we have
  164. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: We should be trying to just get tests in
  165. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: Implementors can catch incorrect tests
  166. # [18:55] <fantasai> Melinda: We are catching incorrect tests during the review process
  167. # [18:55] <fantasai> Melinda: If we collected the thousands of tests on the Web, we could have a test suite with a lot of tests. Won't know how correct it is, or how much coverage
  168. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: My worry is that, if I want to contribute tests I don't know if the tests I want to write are in progress or if they're actually missing
  169. # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: That's one problem we want to solve with this test management system
  170. # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: It will include tests that have been submitted, tests that are in the system
  171. # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: One problem is tests ar currently hosted on submitters site, etc.
  172. # [18:57] <anne> (I agree with dbaron that implementors will easily catch incorrect tests.)
  173. # [18:57] <fantasai> Peter: I think it would be very beneficial for us to build software here
  174. # [18:57] <fantasai> (anne, but not incorrect specs, which is something else I've been catching)
  175. # [18:58] <anne> (Implementors are usually the ones catching spec bugs in my experience.)
  176. # [18:58] <fantasai> Topic: Test Suite Interest Group
  177. # [18:58] <fantasai> Peter: any thoughts?
  178. # [18:58] <fantasai> Melinda: I think it'd just be more overhead
  179. # [18:58] <fantasai> Bert: I'm sure there are people who are good in making test suites.
  180. # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: We are not that kind of people
  181. # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: Maybe we aren't attracting that kind of people because we aren't that kind of people
  182. # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think we're not that kind of people
  183. # [18:59] <melinda> s/just be more overhead/just be more overhead unless we identify the set of people who can really focus on this.
  184. # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I think the not finishing the test suite is another problem, but I don't think you'll be able to pull in random people who aren't good CSS people and have them write good CSS tests
  185. # [19:00] <fantasai> Peter: I think the question is, there are people out there who could be involved, would we be more likely to get people involved by forming a separate interest group, or is just informally coordinating through our group enough?
  186. # [19:01] <fantasai> Bert: How would that affect the organizations that we represent? Would it make a difference to any colleagues?
  187. # [19:01] <fantasai> Melinda: Hp has maybe one person
  188. # [19:01] <fantasai> Peter: I think HP has been demonstrating that we're dedicated to the test suites whether or not there's an interest group
  189. # [19:01] <fantasai> Jason: I have a request from someone at AOL who is interested in joining this group. He might be someone to work on tests
  190. # [19:02] <fantasai> Peter: I think the benefit of Interest Group is to allow non-W3C-Members to be formally involved. I think that's the only thing we'd gain by forming an interest group
  191. # [19:02] <fantasai> Peter: Is that worth the extra overhead?
  192. # [19:03] <fantasai> (for W3C, for participants in this group)
  193. # [19:03] <fantasai> Peter: I see advantages and disadvantages
  194. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  195. # [19:04] <fantasai> Melinda: Could ask www-style if anyone would be interested in joining to work on tests one day per week
  196. # [19:04] <dsinger> if making progress on items people care about have dates for test suites % completion, I bet we'll see more activity
  197. # [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai: I think having a test day is a great idea
  198. # [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Mozilla does something like that with bug days
  199. # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: I don't think test suites are inspiring enough
  200. # [19:06] <dsinger> test suites are inspiring if their absence has negative consequences (like, you get dropped from the charter and you won't get published)
  201. # [19:07] <fantasai> fantasai: we have several volunteers on the public test list who are writing tests because they think it's interesting
  202. # [19:07] <fantasai> fantasai: I need help reviewing their tests
  203. # [19:07] * Bert didn't know that sense of the word "inspiring" :-)
  204. # [19:07] <dbaron> fantasai, is there a list somewhere of the tests that have been contributed that need review?
  205. # [19:08] <fantasai> Melinda: I'd like to see a milestone schedule for CSS2.1, although i don't know how though
  206. # [19:08] <fantasai> dbaron, I can't remember atm, I'll ping you after the meeting
  207. # [19:08] <fantasai> melinda: Maybe Elika and I can discuss and toss something out next week
  208. # [19:08] <dbaron> fantasai, not just for me... the list should be publicly available somewhere from Style/CSS/Test/
  209. # [19:08] <fantasai> yes, you're absolutely right
  210. # [19:08] <fantasai> Meeting closed
  211. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  212. # [19:08] <Zakim> -George
  213. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  214. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Ming
  215. # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
  216. # [19:08] <Zakim> -dsinger
  217. # [19:08] * Quits: Ming (ming.gao@15.243.169.72) (Quit: Ming)
  218. # [19:08] <fantasai> I think I had a place to put that, but I don't remember if I updated it
  219. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
  220. # [19:09] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
  221. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  222. # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
  223. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  224. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, plinss, Bert, Ming, jason_cranfordtea, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, George, David_Baron, [Microsoft]
  225. # [19:09] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  226. # [19:09] * fantasai adds that to to-do list
  227. # [19:12] <fantasai> melinda: when did you want to discuss tests? Arron's interested, too
  228. # [19:13] * Parts: George (giorgic@84.215.42.108)
  229. # [19:16] * Quits: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12) (Quit: jason_cranfordtea)
  230. # [19:23] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.103)
  231. # [20:11] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Ping timeout)
  232. # [20:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  233. # [20:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  234. # [20:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
  235. # [20:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-css-minutes.html fantasai
  236. # [20:13] <fantasai> sylvaing, Arron: I think we need to get MSFT to do a roll call at telecons. You guys don't speak up much, so I never know who to put on the attendees list
  237. # [20:15] <fantasai> zakim, who was here?
  238. # [20:15] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, fantasai.
  239. # [20:22] <fantasai> Bert, I saw your note about issue 63 edits. Did you make any of the other open edits, or was that the only one?
  240. # [20:23] <Bert> That was the last one and the only one I did at that time.
  241. # [20:23] <Bert> You're saying that there are older ones still open?
  242. # [20:24] <fantasai> yes. But perhaps you did them already?
  243. # [20:24] * fantasai hasn't reviewed your edits in awhile
  244. # [20:24] * Bert checking...
  245. # [20:27] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  246. # [20:27] <Bert> Nothing done between issues 38 and 63.
  247. # [20:29] <Bert> Or at least not noted in the errata...
  248. # [20:38] * Joins: dbaron_ (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  249. # [20:39] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Ping timeout)
  250. # [20:39] * dbaron_ is now known as dbaron
  251. # [20:43] <dbaron> pub request at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/0027.html
  252. # [20:45] <fantasai> anne: Implementors may be catching spec bugs, but I'm also running into spec bugs just by reviewing tests and noticing that the spec doesn't justify their assertions
  253. # [20:50] <sylvaing> fantasai: alexmog and sylvaing were there
  254. # [20:50] <fantasai> thanks sylvaing
  255. # [20:50] <fantasai> sylvaing: was Arron there too?
  256. # [20:50] <sylvaing> we were a bit late. i can announce us in IRC when that happens ?
  257. # [20:50] <fantasai> yes
  258. # [20:51] <fantasai> that would be best, then it's sure to be in the minutes :)
  259. # [20:51] <sylvaing> will do then
  260. # [20:51] <fantasai> awesome
  261. # [20:52] <sylvaing> Arron was not with us. Will let him answer.
  262. # [20:54] <dbaron> sylvaing, when Zakim says "+[Microsoft.a]" you can say "Zakim, [Microsoft.a] has sylvaing, alexmog"
  263. # [20:54] * fantasai finishes going through the minutes and notes that Arron must've been there since he responded to one of the comments on IRC
  264. # [21:08] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  265. # [21:11] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Connection reset by peer)
  266. # [21:19] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  267. # [21:37] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  268. # [22:09] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.103) (Ping timeout)
  269. # [22:10] <Arron> I was on the call though I came a little late. No biggie if I didn't make the list of who attended
  270. # [22:15] <anne> fantasai, sure, I was just agreeing that I think the review can be done after the test is already part of the testsuite
  271. # [22:16] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  272. # [22:28] <anne> fantasai, fwiw, minimized testcases from Web pages reveal bugs in specs all the time when I'm doing QA work
  273. # [22:28] <anne> fantasai, though less and less with HTML, admittedly
  274. # [22:40] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Ping timeout)
  275. # [22:40] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101)
  276. # [22:40] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  277. # [22:40] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  278. # [22:44] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@96.237.166.9)
  279. # [22:46] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  280. # [22:50] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Quit: melinda)
  281. # [22:51] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  282. # [22:55] <sylvaing> dbaron, thanks for the tip
  283. # [23:00] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.101) (Ping timeout)
  284. # [23:09] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@96.237.166.9) (Quit: jdaggett)
  285. # [23:36] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.72)
  286. # [23:38] * Quits: Arron (arronei@131.107.0.106) (Ping timeout)
  287. # [23:43] * Joins: Arron (arronei@131.107.0.102)
  288. # Session Close: Thu Jul 17 00:00:00 2008

The end :)