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- # Session Start: Wed Jul 16 00:00:00 2008
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [18:02] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-css-irc
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- # [18:03] <plinss> zakim, this is style
- # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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- # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
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- # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P19
- # [18:07] <George> Zakim, ??P19 is me
- # [18:07] <Zakim> +George; got it
- # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
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- # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
- # [18:10] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
- # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
- # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, plinss, Bert, Ming, jason_cranfordtea, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, George, [Mozilla]
- # [18:10] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
- # [18:12] * Joins: Arron (arronei@131.107.0.106)
- # [18:12] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
- # [18:13] <fantasai> Topic: Charter
- # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:13] <fantasai> Peter: I updated charter with Chris's feedback
- # [18:13] <fantasai> Peter: Any comments?
- # [18:13] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/draft-charter2.html
- # [18:13] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/proposed-charter.html
- # [18:14] <fantasai> Melinda: I have a concern
- # [18:14] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.73) (Ping timeout)
- # [18:14] <fantasai> Melinda: Bullet number three we say "..."
- # [18:14] <fantasai> Melinda: We should say for each feature
- # [18:15] <fantasai> Melinda: It sounds like we musth have two complete implementations of the entire CSS2.1 rather than two implementations of each feature, etc.
- # [18:15] <fantasai> Peter needs to check the process document
- # [18:15] <melinda> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/
- # [18:15] <fantasai> David: Why was the wording about potentially merging and splitting modules taken out?
- # [18:16] <fantasai> Peter: Since adding new modules would be done by amending the charter anyway
- # [18:16] <fantasai> David: What would happen with the SVG features module that's being discussed?
- # [18:16] <fantasai> David: Does that require rechartering?
- # [18:16] <melinda> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfr #2
- # [18:16] <fantasai> David: Does it require amending the charter?
- # [18:16] <fantasai> David: Or can we just do it?
- # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
- # [18:17] <fantasai> Melinda: I didn't see any wording in the charter said that items not in the deliverables list can't be advanced along REC track
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- # [18:18] <fantasai> Peter: I didn't want to specifically call that out
- # [18:18] <fantasai> Peter: We do want to focus on our deliverables and not get sidetracked
- # [18:18] <fantasai> Peter: but I also don't want us to get stuck in charter process
- # [18:19] <fantasai> Peter: Wrt CSS-SVG thing.. I'm not sure if that fits our definition of working with other groups
- # [18:19] <fantasai> Melinda: We might want to ask Chris how he thinks we should handle these kinds of emergent things
- # [18:20] <fantasai> dsinger: On the subject on other material, we can always discuss things on the mailing list and work on it
- # [18:20] <fantasai> dsinger: but getting formal time on it, that requires having it in the charter
- # [18:20] <fantasai> Peter: our focus should be driving our deliverables to REC
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- # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: I can see this CSS-SVG thing advancing quickly enough that we might have multiple implementations by the end of this charter period
- # [18:21] * Bert notices a symmetry: after 2 Recs in 11 years, we now promise 11 Recs in 2 years...
- # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: Do we want to just let that slip?
- # [18:22] <fantasai> Peter: how do we split this with SVG?
- # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: I think if we're adding features to CSS, it should be in CSS
- # [18:22] <fantasai> Peter: Isn't there something about changing interpretations of SVG?
- # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: there might have been a few details
- # [18:22] <melinda> Bert, what could go wrong?
- # [18:22] <Bert> :-)
- # [18:23] <fantasai> Peter: I'll make a note to ask Chris about cross-group issues, where that should live in our charter, using this as an example
- # [18:23] <fantasai> ACTION: Peter talk with Chris about cross-group issues
- # [18:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:23] * RRSAgent records action 1
- # [18:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Talk with Chris about cross-group issues [on Peter Linss - due 2008-07-23].
- # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: I think 11 RECs is a bit much
- # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: We have a list of priority things...
- # [18:24] <fantasai> Bert: You really think we can make 11 RECs in just two years?
- # [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: Why did Paged Media get bumped up?
- # [18:24] <fantasai> Elika: We're planning to publish Last Call this year
- # [18:25] <fantasai> Elika: Doesn't make sense to amend charter right after it gets approved
- # [18:25] <fantasai> Peter: A lot of the things in the list are small and/or far along
- # [18:26] <fantasai> Elika: A lot of them depend on CSS2.1
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- # [18:26] <fantasai> Melinda: I think even if we only worked on CSS2.1, it would be a stretch to finish it in 2 years
- # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai agrees
- # [18:27] <fantasai> Bert still thinks variables should not be on our charter
- # [18:28] <fantasai> Bert: That's an architectural concern, not a process concern
- # [18:28] <dsinger> perhaps each of the 11 should have a calendar, to show what needs done by when
- # [18:28] * Joins: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203)
- # [18:28] <fantasai> Peter: I hear your argument, but if we have implementors who want to work on it, we need to work on a spec otherwise it'll happen outside the standardization process
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- # [18:29] <fantasai> dsinger: I wonder if for each of the 11 we have a calendar to show what needs to be done by when
- # [18:30] <fantasai> dsinger: otherwise we'll procrastinate until the end of the 2 years and realize that we can't finish them all
- # [18:32] <fantasai> Melinda: We maybe don't need it in the charter, but it would be a good companion document
- # [18:32] <fantasai> Peter: Do we call out dependencies anywhere?
- # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Most docs depend on CSS2.1. If it doesn't make it, most things won't make it
- # [18:33] <anne> Regrets + anne
- # [18:33] <anne> (also for the next three weeks, as I'm on holiday)
- # [18:33] <fantasai> Melinda: only Selectors doesn't
- # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: Should put that in the charter. Any other dependencies can be tweaked out, but anything that depends on CSS2.1 depends on CSS2.1
- # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: If 2.1 doesn't make it to REC, almost nothing else will no matter how ready
- # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: Only Selectors and Media Queries are independent
- # [18:38] <fantasai> Peter: I will call out the dependency on 2.1 in the charter
- # [18:39] <fantasai> ACTION: Peter update charter in response to Melinda's comment on CR crit and 2.1 ep
- # [18:39] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 2
- # [18:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - Update charter in response to Melinda's comment on CR crit and 2.1 ep [on Peter Linss - due 2008-07-23].
- # [18:39] <fantasai> Topic: Color Module
- # [18:39] <fantasai> Peter: We have permission to publish LC
- # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: Chris says we don't need to ask for permission here
- # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: That was the transition request. What about the pub request?
- # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: Did you request a publication date?
- # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: no
- # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: I'll work on that then
- # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: Where are we with implementation reports?
- # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: We're in good shape for implementations, but don't have reports
- # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: Can we generate those by the end of the LC period?
- # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: Once the LC is published, the test suite will reflect a published spec
- # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: then we can request implementation reports
- # [18:41] <fantasai> ACTION: dbaron prepare implementation report template for CSS3 Color
- # [18:41] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:41] * RRSAgent records action 3
- # [18:41] <trackbot> Created ACTION-80 - Prepare implementation report template for CSS3 Color [on David Baron - due 2008-07-23].
- # [18:41] <fantasai> Topic: Marquee
- # [18:41] <fantasai> Peter: Ready for LC?
- # [18:42] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.104) (Quit: sylvaing)
- # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: no. Still some issues with marquee-direction table
- # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: sent message to www-style this morning
- # [18:46] <fantasai> Peter: Let's not get into the technical discussion here
- # [18:47] <fantasai> Peter: revisit in a week
- # [18:47] <fantasai> Topic: Test Suite Harness
- # [18:47] <fantasai> Peter: Wanted to let everyone know that there's a demo version online
- # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: what does it do?
- # [18:48] <Bert> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/test-harness-css/
- # [18:48] <fantasai> MWI test harness it is based off of : http://www.w3.org/2007/03/mth/harness
- # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: it's Member-only until Dom has a chance to review the code
- # [18:50] <fantasai> Peter: the goal is to make it easy to do implementation reports
- # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: The other thing I want to discuss, we've been tossing idea of building a test management system
- # [18:51] * Bert sees the report generator currently crashes :-)
- # [18:51] <anne> (FWIW, I think both Media Queries and Selectors have a grammar dependency on CSS 2.1)
- # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: Allow people to submit tests, manage reviews and approvals, etc.
- # [18:51] <fantasai> Peter: I don't think there's anything out there, we'd have to build one
- # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: HP is interested in contributing resources, wanted to put out a call to see if anyone else is interested
- # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: I'm not asking for answers or commitments, just give a thought
- # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: If there are questions about why or what's the value, let's hear them
- # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: I think having a system like this rapidly in place would be a big win for us, for CSS2.1 test suite in particular
- # [18:53] <fantasai> Peter: If there's something open source out there that we can use, can be modified, etc. that will get us there rapidly, let us know?
- # [18:53] <fantasai> Peter: We could use any able-bodied hands that can write PHP or whatever
- # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: I wonder if we're being too picky about review reqs for the test suite
- # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Maybe we don't need as formal a review process as we have
- # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: We should be trying to just get tests in
- # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: Implementors can catch incorrect tests
- # [18:55] <fantasai> Melinda: We are catching incorrect tests during the review process
- # [18:55] <fantasai> Melinda: If we collected the thousands of tests on the Web, we could have a test suite with a lot of tests. Won't know how correct it is, or how much coverage
- # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: My worry is that, if I want to contribute tests I don't know if the tests I want to write are in progress or if they're actually missing
- # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: That's one problem we want to solve with this test management system
- # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: It will include tests that have been submitted, tests that are in the system
- # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: One problem is tests ar currently hosted on submitters site, etc.
- # [18:57] <anne> (I agree with dbaron that implementors will easily catch incorrect tests.)
- # [18:57] <fantasai> Peter: I think it would be very beneficial for us to build software here
- # [18:57] <fantasai> (anne, but not incorrect specs, which is something else I've been catching)
- # [18:58] <anne> (Implementors are usually the ones catching spec bugs in my experience.)
- # [18:58] <fantasai> Topic: Test Suite Interest Group
- # [18:58] <fantasai> Peter: any thoughts?
- # [18:58] <fantasai> Melinda: I think it'd just be more overhead
- # [18:58] <fantasai> Bert: I'm sure there are people who are good in making test suites.
- # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: We are not that kind of people
- # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: Maybe we aren't attracting that kind of people because we aren't that kind of people
- # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think we're not that kind of people
- # [18:59] <melinda> s/just be more overhead/just be more overhead unless we identify the set of people who can really focus on this.
- # [18:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I think the not finishing the test suite is another problem, but I don't think you'll be able to pull in random people who aren't good CSS people and have them write good CSS tests
- # [19:00] <fantasai> Peter: I think the question is, there are people out there who could be involved, would we be more likely to get people involved by forming a separate interest group, or is just informally coordinating through our group enough?
- # [19:01] <fantasai> Bert: How would that affect the organizations that we represent? Would it make a difference to any colleagues?
- # [19:01] <fantasai> Melinda: Hp has maybe one person
- # [19:01] <fantasai> Peter: I think HP has been demonstrating that we're dedicated to the test suites whether or not there's an interest group
- # [19:01] <fantasai> Jason: I have a request from someone at AOL who is interested in joining this group. He might be someone to work on tests
- # [19:02] <fantasai> Peter: I think the benefit of Interest Group is to allow non-W3C-Members to be formally involved. I think that's the only thing we'd gain by forming an interest group
- # [19:02] <fantasai> Peter: Is that worth the extra overhead?
- # [19:03] <fantasai> (for W3C, for participants in this group)
- # [19:03] <fantasai> Peter: I see advantages and disadvantages
- # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
- # [19:04] <fantasai> Melinda: Could ask www-style if anyone would be interested in joining to work on tests one day per week
- # [19:04] <dsinger> if making progress on items people care about have dates for test suites % completion, I bet we'll see more activity
- # [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai: I think having a test day is a great idea
- # [19:05] <fantasai> fantasai: Mozilla does something like that with bug days
- # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: I don't think test suites are inspiring enough
- # [19:06] <dsinger> test suites are inspiring if their absence has negative consequences (like, you get dropped from the charter and you won't get published)
- # [19:07] <fantasai> fantasai: we have several volunteers on the public test list who are writing tests because they think it's interesting
- # [19:07] <fantasai> fantasai: I need help reviewing their tests
- # [19:07] * Bert didn't know that sense of the word "inspiring" :-)
- # [19:07] <dbaron> fantasai, is there a list somewhere of the tests that have been contributed that need review?
- # [19:08] <fantasai> Melinda: I'd like to see a milestone schedule for CSS2.1, although i don't know how though
- # [19:08] <fantasai> dbaron, I can't remember atm, I'll ping you after the meeting
- # [19:08] <fantasai> melinda: Maybe Elika and I can discuss and toss something out next week
- # [19:08] <dbaron> fantasai, not just for me... the list should be publicly available somewhere from Style/CSS/Test/
- # [19:08] <fantasai> yes, you're absolutely right
- # [19:08] <fantasai> Meeting closed
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -George
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -Ming
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -dsinger
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- # [19:08] <fantasai> I think I had a place to put that, but I don't remember if I updated it
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
- # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, plinss, Bert, Ming, jason_cranfordtea, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, George, David_Baron, [Microsoft]
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- # [19:09] * fantasai adds that to to-do list
- # [19:12] <fantasai> melinda: when did you want to discuss tests? Arron's interested, too
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- # [20:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
- # [20:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
- # [20:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
- # [20:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/16-css-minutes.html fantasai
- # [20:13] <fantasai> sylvaing, Arron: I think we need to get MSFT to do a roll call at telecons. You guys don't speak up much, so I never know who to put on the attendees list
- # [20:15] <fantasai> zakim, who was here?
- # [20:15] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, fantasai.
- # [20:22] <fantasai> Bert, I saw your note about issue 63 edits. Did you make any of the other open edits, or was that the only one?
- # [20:23] <Bert> That was the last one and the only one I did at that time.
- # [20:23] <Bert> You're saying that there are older ones still open?
- # [20:24] <fantasai> yes. But perhaps you did them already?
- # [20:24] * fantasai hasn't reviewed your edits in awhile
- # [20:24] * Bert checking...
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- # [20:27] <Bert> Nothing done between issues 38 and 63.
- # [20:29] <Bert> Or at least not noted in the errata...
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- # [20:43] <dbaron> pub request at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/0027.html
- # [20:45] <fantasai> anne: Implementors may be catching spec bugs, but I'm also running into spec bugs just by reviewing tests and noticing that the spec doesn't justify their assertions
- # [20:50] <sylvaing> fantasai: alexmog and sylvaing were there
- # [20:50] <fantasai> thanks sylvaing
- # [20:50] <fantasai> sylvaing: was Arron there too?
- # [20:50] <sylvaing> we were a bit late. i can announce us in IRC when that happens ?
- # [20:50] <fantasai> yes
- # [20:51] <fantasai> that would be best, then it's sure to be in the minutes :)
- # [20:51] <sylvaing> will do then
- # [20:51] <fantasai> awesome
- # [20:52] <sylvaing> Arron was not with us. Will let him answer.
- # [20:54] <dbaron> sylvaing, when Zakim says "+[Microsoft.a]" you can say "Zakim, [Microsoft.a] has sylvaing, alexmog"
- # [20:54] * fantasai finishes going through the minutes and notes that Arron must've been there since he responded to one of the comments on IRC
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- # [22:10] <Arron> I was on the call though I came a little late. No biggie if I didn't make the list of who attended
- # [22:15] <anne> fantasai, sure, I was just agreeing that I think the review can be done after the test is already part of the testsuite
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- # [22:28] <anne> fantasai, fwiw, minimized testcases from Web pages reveal bugs in specs all the time when I'm doing QA work
- # [22:28] <anne> fantasai, though less and less with HTML, admittedly
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- # [22:40] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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- # [22:55] <sylvaing> dbaron, thanks for the tip
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- # Session Close: Thu Jul 17 00:00:00 2008
The end :)