/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-09-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 03 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <glazou> hmm could be erectus
  4. # [00:01] <Bert> I think Prof. De Lumley decided on Erectus.
  5. # [00:01] <Bert> But as the article says, he may have been mistaken in some conclusions.
  6. # [00:03] <glazou> interesting
  7. # [00:04] * glazou sighs, thinking we'll never be able to know about languages older than ~5000 years old
  8. # [00:07] <glazou> bed time here, bye people
  9. # [00:08] <Bert> Same here. Good night!
  10. # [00:08] * Quits: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19) (Quit: zzzZZZzzz)
  11. # [00:14] <anne> might be a good idea
  12. # [00:52] * Quits: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203) (Ping timeout)
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  37. # [15:16] <MoZ> Zakim, this will be css
  38. # [15:16] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, MoZ
  39. # [15:17] <MoZ> Zakim, remind me in 1 hour
  40. # [15:17] <Zakim> ok, MoZ
  41. # [15:50] * Quits: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203) (Client exited)
  42. # [15:51] * Joins: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203)
  43. # [15:53] <myakura> hmm, is there any way to match elements which have attribute(s) in CSS?
  44. # [15:55] <anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#attribute-selectors ?
  45. # [15:55] <anne> not really the right channel for such questions though
  46. # [15:56] <myakura> ah
  47. # [15:57] <myakura> i meant if we can write p[*] or some to match both <p align=center> and <p class=whatever>
  48. # [15:59] <anne> oops
  49. # [15:59] <anne> can't think of such a selector
  50. # [16:00] <myakura> yeah, that was my initial thought
  51. # [16:01] <myakura> thanks~
  52. # [16:02] * Quits: myakura (myakura@118.6.223.41) (Quit: Leaving...)
  53. # [16:17] <Zakim> MoZ, you asked to be reminded at this time
  54. # [16:41] * Joins: SaloniR (43b68321@128.30.52.43)
  55. # [16:47] * Quits: MoZ (d5f40aa6@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  56. # [17:35] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  57. # [17:35] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  58. # [17:53] * Joins: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19)
  59. # [17:53] <glazou> hi
  60. # [17:55] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  61. # [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  62. # [17:56] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
  63. # [17:57] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  64. # [17:57] <Zakim> + +95089aaaa
  65. # [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, +95089aaaa is me
  66. # [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  67. # [18:02] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167)
  68. # [18:02] <glazou> hi dsinger
  69. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.253.250.aabb
  70. # [18:04] <Zakim> +dsinger
  71. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.760.741.aacc
  72. # [18:05] <plinss_home> zakim, +1.760.741 is plinss
  73. # [18:05] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  74. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.510.981.aadd
  75. # [18:05] <fantasai> Zakim, +1.510 is fantasai
  76. # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  77. # [18:05] * plinss_home is now known as plinss
  78. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, who is here
  79. # [18:06] <Zakim> glazou, you need to end that query with '?'
  80. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  81. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, +1.253.250.aabb, dsinger, plinss, fantasai
  82. # [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, Zakim, glazou, SaloniR, anne, yosch, jdaggett, Hixie, arronei, smufkin, shepazu, Bert, krijnh, plinss, fantasai, trackbot
  83. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  84. # [18:07] * Joins: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12)
  85. # [18:07] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.72)
  86. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.425.533.aaee
  87. # [18:07] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
  88. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.425.533.aaee, glazou, +1.253.250.aabb, dsinger, plinss, fantasai
  89. # [18:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see sylvaing, jason_cranfordtea, dsinger, Zakim, glazou, SaloniR, anne, yosch, jdaggett, Hixie, arronei, smufkin, shepazu, Bert, krijnh, plinss, fantasai, trackbot
  90. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, +1.425.533.aaee is SaloniR
  91. # [18:08] <sylvaing> zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  92. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SaloniR; got it
  93. # [18:08] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  94. # [18:08] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167) (Quit: dsinger)
  95. # [18:08] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167)
  96. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, +1.425.533.aaee is jeffrey_wilson
  97. # [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+1.425.533.aaee'
  98. # [18:08] <glazou> ops
  99. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, +1.253.250.aabb is jeffrey_wilson
  100. # [18:09] <Zakim> +jeffrey_wilson; got it
  101. # [18:09] <glazou> anne ?
  102. # [18:09] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  103. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +0472164aaff
  104. # [18:10] <glazou> Zakim, +0472164aaff is howcome
  105. # [18:10] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  106. # [18:10] * Joins: MoZ (d5f40aa6@128.30.52.43)
  107. # [18:10] <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code ?
  108. # [18:10] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
  109. # [18:10] <fantasai> Peter: I wanted to track where we are on things that are in LC
  110. # [18:11] <fantasai> Peter: Any comments, any progress on test suites
  111. # [18:11] <fantasai> Peter: Status check to see what we need to do to move forward
  112. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: XSLFO has editorial comments on CSS3 Color
  113. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  114. # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: We should let dbaron handle those, and only bring up comments on the telecon if they require discussion. editorial comments usually don't
  115. # [18:12] <fantasai> Daniel: What else is in LC?
  116. # [18:12] <arronei> zakim, microsoft.a is me
  117. # [18:12] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  118. # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: Selectors
  119. # [18:12] <Zakim> +??P54
  120. # [18:12] <fantasai> Daniel: Still a few changes to the document to make
  121. # [18:12] <glazou> Zakim, +??P54 is MoZ
  122. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+??P54'
  123. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  124. # [18:13] <MoZ> Zakim, ?? is me
  125. # [18:13] <Zakim> +MoZ; got it
  126. # [18:13] <fantasai> Daniel: I still need to make those changes
  127. # [18:13] <MoZ> Zakim, mute me
  128. # [18:13] <Zakim> MoZ should now be muted
  129. # [18:13] <fantasai> ACTION Daniel make edits to Selectors
  130. # [18:13] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  131. # [18:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - Make edits to Selectors [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-09-10].
  132. # [18:13] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  133. # [18:13] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
  134. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: Snapshot is in LC, waiting for Selectors
  135. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: Paged Media is at LC, need to publish another LC
  136. # [18:14] <fantasai> Daniel: Marquee
  137. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: CSS3 Fonts, but should go back to WD next
  138. # [18:15] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  139. # [18:15] <fantasai> Daniel: Print Profile
  140. # [18:15] <fantasai> Melinda: Needs to go back out, but waiting for Paged Media
  141. # [18:15] * dbaron spent 20 minutes in line at the post office (which opens at 8:30) and now Zakim doesn't like me...
  142. # [18:15] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  143. # [18:16] <fantasai> Daniel: David, did you see editorial comments on css3-color?
  144. # [18:16] <fantasai> David: LC period ended 2 days ago, so I'll try and gather them all up
  145. # [18:16] <fantasai> David: Not sure I can do that for next week
  146. # [18:17] <fantasai> ACTION dbaron Evaluate LC comments for css3-color due two weeks
  147. # [18:17] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  148. # [18:17] <trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Evaluate LC comments for css3-color due two weeks [on David Baron - due 2008-09-10].
  149. # [18:17] <fantasai> Peter: Status of test suite?
  150. # [18:17] <fantasai> David: Has test suite. Wrote impl report for FF on Linux. Need more impl reports
  151. # [18:17] <fantasai> Topic: Other Topics
  152. # [18:18] <fantasai> Daniel: Next two items on agenda, we are missing the right people
  153. # [18:18] <fantasai> Daniel: CSS2.1 issues
  154. # [18:18] * anne glazou, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0179.html I can't make :/ I have guests coming over
  155. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: I haven't looked into them since the F2F, so I don't think we have any open
  156. # [18:19] <fantasai> Daniel: bolder/lighter issue?
  157. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: We closed it as undefined for CSS2.1 and deferred to CSS3
  158. # [18:19] <fantasai> Daniel: Should we review mediaqueries issues without Anne?
  159. # [18:19] <glazou> anne: postponed, we need you here
  160. # [18:19] <fantasai> howcome: We should wait until he is here
  161. # [18:20] <fantasai> Daniel: That doesn't leave much on the agenda for today.. we are done.
  162. # [18:20] <fantasai> Daniel: Anything else?
  163. # [18:20] <fantasai> dsinger: We'll have a new version of Animations and Transforms soon
  164. # [18:20] <fantasai> dsinger: There's a discussion in HTML5 about accessibility of timed media (audio/video), might affect this group.
  165. # [18:21] <fantasai> dsigner: because Media Queries might be a good way to handle that
  166. # [18:21] <glazou> sorry, me is muted, sneezing and sneezing
  167. # [18:21] <fantasai> Daniel: Anything else?
  168. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai: Issue for Paged Media we could discuss
  169. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai: It's a grammar issue
  170. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: The @page rule in CSS2.1 takes a declaration block
  171. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: In CSS3 it can also contain @rules
  172. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: In the grammar in css3-page it says you have to have a semicolon at the end of the @rule
  173. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: that allows declarations after the @rule to be parsed and recognized after the semicolon
  174. # [18:23] <fantasai> Melinda: But several examples don't include that semicolon, and several implementations don't require
  175. # [18:23] <fantasai> Melinda: There are two proposals for fixing this
  176. # [18:24] <fantasai> Melinda: First is to require semicolons after @blocks
  177. # [18:24] <fantasai> Melinda: Second is to require all margin box statements to be after all other declarations.
  178. # [18:25] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  179. # [18:25] <dbaron> oops
  180. # [18:25] <dbaron> The appendix G grammar or the ch 4 grammar?
  181. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: Either way we will need to allow an exception so that UAs that parse and recognize @rules without semicolons are conforming if their market requires this behavior, but such style sheets are not valid CSS
  182. # [18:26] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  183. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: This market is mostly for printers, so browsers should be able to parse strictly from the beginning
  184. # [18:28] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors
  185. # [18:30] <sylvaing> are they allowed in CSS2.1 ?
  186. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: Melinda says the DLNA test suite doesn't have semicolons, but does place the @rules at the end of the @page rule.
  187. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: So I would recommend speccing that.
  188. # [18:30] <fantasai> sylvaing, no they are not
  189. # [18:32] <sylvaing> so a CSS3 stylesheet may not parse properly with a CSS2.1 UA
  190. # [18:32] <fantasai> howcome, peter don't like requiring semicolons
  191. # [18:33] <glazou> howcome does not like pushing nested @rules at the end either
  192. # [18:35] <fantasai> Peter: do we have a problem with that currently in browsers? Do they drop the declaration after the @page rule?
  193. # [18:36] <fantasai> howcome: It's true that Opera swallows the declaration if it comes after.
  194. # [18:36] <fantasai> Melinda: who raised this issue?
  195. # [18:36] <fantasai> sylvaing(?): Microsoft, we noticed it and posted about it.
  196. # [18:37] <fantasai> howcome: If we say the at-rules have to come after all declarations, then we'd have to drop all the declarations after the at-page rule.
  197. # [18:38] <fantasai> howcome: I think it makes sense to parse at-rules in declaration lists. It's a key for extending CSS in the future.
  198. # [18:39] <fantasai> peter: I think forward-compatible rules should always win, and anytime you see an @keyword then you parse it as an @rule.
  199. # [18:39] <dbaron> I agree with peter (line above).
  200. # [18:39] <fantasai> Melinda: So we need to make the semicolon optional in CSS3 Page
  201. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think this is incompatible with the forward-compatible grammar
  202. # [18:41] <fantasai> Peter: I don't think we need to change the grammar, we need to change the parsing rules for errors.
  203. # [18:41] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-71
  204. # [18:42] <fantasai> howcome: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#at-rules
  205. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#declaration
  206. # [18:43] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.75)
  207. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: The problem isn't where does the @rule end, it's does the @rule end the declaration.
  208. # [18:46] <fantasai> property: value; @key { ... } property2: value;
  209. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: The question isn't whether @key { ... } stays together, it's whether it's considered part of the property2 declaration or not
  210. # [18:47] <fantasai> peter: "User agents must ignore an invalid at-keyword together with everything following it, up to and including the next semicolon (;) or block ({...}), whichever comes first."
  211. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: If you take that, then
  212. # [18:47] <fantasai> p { color: @key { ... } green; }
  213. # [18:48] <dsinger> ow
  214. # [18:48] <fantasai> If you take that rule like that, then in this rule my paragraph is going to be green.
  215. # [18:48] <fantasai> So.. I think we've just proven that there's a problem with this spec :)
  216. # [18:48] <glazou> really really ugly
  217. # [18:48] <fantasai> fantasai: So we don't want to just parse and "ignore" the @rule.
  218. # [18:49] <fantasai> peter: If it's in between declarations then we want to ignore it, if it's within a declaration then we want to throw it out
  219. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: So someone needs to draft text for this.
  220. # [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: it's CSS2.1 Issue 71, which needs a better description
  221. # [18:50] <sylvaing> invalid if value, ignored if declaration ?
  222. # [18:51] <glazou> yes
  223. # [18:52] <fantasai> Daniel: So who is going to draft that?
  224. # [18:52] <glazou> Bert...
  225. # [18:52] <fantasai> howcome: What's the resolution?
  226. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: So my summary would be, @rules inside declaration blocks are ignored if between declarations (i.e. at the beginning of a declaration before the property), invalid if within declarations.
  227. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: { property: value @rule; } /* invalid */
  228. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: { @rule {} property: value } /* valid */
  229. # [18:54] <fantasai> er..
  230. # [18:54] <fantasai> s/valid/ignored/
  231. # [18:55] <fantasai> Melinda: that should apply only to @rules that are invalid inside declaration blocks, not to valid ones
  232. # [18:55] <fantasai> (in CSS2.1 all @rules inside declaration blocks are invalid, in CSS3 Page @marginbox rules are valid inside @page's declaration block)
  233. # [18:56] <fantasai> RESOLVED: @rules inside declaration blocks are ignored if between declarations (i.e. at the beginning of a declaration before the property), invalid if within declarations.
  234. # [18:57] <fantasai> Daniel: Anything else?
  235. # [18:57] <MoZ> Zakim, unmute me
  236. # [18:57] <Zakim> MoZ should no longer be muted
  237. # [18:57] <fantasai> Daniel: One more administrative issue
  238. # [18:57] <fantasai> Daniel: We need to start collecting items for agenda for TP
  239. # [18:58] * MoZ announce that he will be there on sunday at least
  240. # [18:59] <dsinger> I deeply regret that I'll miss the TP, but Dean Jackson (ex-w3c) will be there
  241. # [18:59] <fantasai> Daniel notes that there are other hotels within easy walking distance of the sofitel
  242. # [19:00] <fantasai> Daniel: Arcadia or something
  243. # [19:00] <dsinger> I have stayed at a small hotel in walking, just on the canal, can't remember its name
  244. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron, fantasai usually stay at Hotel la Calanque
  245. # [19:00] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/mandelieu-2008
  246. # [19:00] <fantasai> Add topics
  247. # [19:00] <Zakim> -howcome
  248. # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  249. # [19:00] <Zakim> -SaloniR
  250. # [19:00] <Zakim> -jeffrey_wilson
  251. # [19:00] <Zakim> -plinss
  252. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  253. # [19:00] <Zakim> -dsinger
  254. # [19:00] <Zakim> -arronei
  255. # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  256. # [19:00] <Zakim> -glazou
  257. # [19:01] <Zakim> -MoZ
  258. # [19:01] <Zakim> -fantasai
  259. # [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  260. # [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, dsinger, +1.760.741.aacc, plinss, +1.510.981.aadd, fantasai, SaloniR, sylvaing, jeffrey_wilson, howcome, [Microsoft], arronei, Melinda_Grant, MoZ, [Mozilla]
  261. # [19:01] * Quits: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  262. # [19:03] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167) (Quit: dsinger)
  263. # [19:06] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.75) (Ping timeout)
  264. # [19:11] * Parts: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12)
  265. # [19:13] <Bert> Sorry, the other telcon was rather long.
  266. # [19:13] <fantasai> hey Bert
  267. # [19:13] <Bert> What did you assign to me in my absence?
  268. # [19:13] <fantasai> we wanted to ask you to write a propsal for CSS2.1 issue 71
  269. # [19:13] <fantasai> or proposed text rather
  270. # [19:15] <dbaron> See http://www.mandelieu.com/accommodation/french-riviera-hotel/hotel-accommodation.html for a list of hotels in the Mandelieu area
  271. # [20:03] * Quits: yosch (yosch@82.243.96.232) (Quit: Bye: mv /dev/elsewhere)
  272. # [20:08] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Ping timeout)
  273. # [20:20] * Quits: MoZ (d5f40aa6@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  274. # [20:24] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  275. # [20:44] * Joins: dbaron_ (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  276. # [20:47] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Ping timeout)
  277. # [21:06] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  278. # [21:06] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  279. # [21:28] * Quits: dbaron_ (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  280. # [22:31] * anne wonders why Media Queries could not be discussed
  281. # [22:31] * anne can prolly not make it next week either due to Fronteers
  282. # [22:32] <fantasai> howcome suggested you should be there
  283. # [22:32] <anne> interesting
  284. # [22:32] <anne> ok
  285. # [22:42] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.72) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [22:48] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.106)
  287. # [23:21] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  288. # Session Close: Thu Sep 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)