/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-09-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.71) (Quit: arronei)
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  26. # [18:01] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  27. # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  28. # [18:01] <Zakim> ok, plinss, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
  29. # [18:01] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  30. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-css-irc
  31. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, +1.760.741 is plinss
  32. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  33. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.510.981.aabb
  34. # [18:08] <fantasai> Zakim, +1.510.981 is fantasai
  35. # [18:08] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  36. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  37. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aacc
  38. # [18:09] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  39. # [18:09] * Joins: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12)
  40. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  41. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], +1.703.265.aacc
  42. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  43. # [18:10] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  44. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, aacc is Jason_Cranford_Teague
  45. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Jason_Cranford_Teague; got it
  46. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  47. # [18:13] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.106)
  48. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +47.21.64.aadd
  49. # [18:14] <dbaron> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  50. # [18:14] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  51. # [18:14] <fantasai> Zakim, +47 is howcome
  52. # [18:14] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  53. # [18:14] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.102.220)
  54. # [18:15] <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code ?
  55. # [18:15] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
  56. # [18:16] <fantasai> Topic: Agenda
  57. # [18:16] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  58. # [18:16] <dbaron> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, Saloni
  59. # [18:16] <Zakim> sylvaing was already listed in [Microsoft], dbaron
  60. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Saloni; got it
  61. # [18:16] <fantasai> Peter: I got your agenda topic, fantasai
  62. # [18:16] <Zakim> + +95247aaee
  63. # [18:16] <MoZ> Zakim, aaee is MoZ
  64. # [18:16] <Zakim> +MoZ; got it
  65. # [18:17] <fantasai> howcome: I want to discuss the 'page' property
  66. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai's request was to discuss http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/09/08/microsoft-css-vendor-extensions.aspx
  67. # [18:17] <fantasai> Zakim, who is here?
  68. # [18:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], Jason_Cranford_Teague, [Microsoft], howcome, SteveZ, MoZ
  69. # [18:17] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  70. # [18:17] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Saloni
  71. # [18:17] <Zakim> On IRC I see howcome, sylvaing, jason_cranfordtea, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, MoZ, shepazu, Bert, Hixie, plinss, trackbot, fantasai, krijnh
  72. # [18:17] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Aug/0255.html
  73. # [18:18] <fantasai> Topic: Bert's proposal for bolder/lighter
  74. # [18:18] <Zakim> + +1.253.250.aaff
  75. # [18:20] <dbaron> Zakim, aaff is Jeff_Willson
  76. # [18:20] <Zakim> +Jeff_Willson; got it
  77. # [18:20] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  78. # [18:20] * dbaron hit the wrong button reaching for unmute
  79. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: I've read it. Mostly makes sense to me. If dbaron likes it then I'm ok with it.
  80. # [18:20] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  81. # [18:20] * Joins: JeffW (824c2013@67.207.141.120)
  82. # [18:21] <fantasai> peterl: I remember when implementing this having to look at the available fonts anyway
  83. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: But not at the computed style level
  84. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: This is pretty different from all the other proposals.
  85. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: I'd be interested to hear what John Daggett has to say.
  86. # [18:21] <fantasai> ACTION dbaron ping jdaggett about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Aug/0255.html
  87. # [18:21] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  88. # [18:21] <trackbot> Created ACTION-104 - Ping jdaggett about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Aug/0255.html [on David Baron - due 2008-09-17].
  89. # [18:22] <fantasai> howcome: I think I'm happy with the outcome if it goes along the lines here
  90. # [18:22] * Joins: SaloniR (836b0067@128.30.52.43)
  91. # [18:22] <fantasai> dbaron: I'll also note that there have been multiple proposals, this is only one of them
  92. # [18:22] <fantasai> Peter: Just wanted to get some feedback here.
  93. # [18:23] * Bert wonders if he sent regrets...
  94. # [18:23] * Bert is in Amsterdam and off to a conference dinner in a few minutes.
  95. # [18:23] <fantasai> dbaron: There's a case where it would be problematic... in e.g. Chinese and Japanese, sometimes the first font is not the main font, it is what is used for Latin chars
  96. # [18:24] <fantasai> Topic: Media Queries
  97. # [18:24] <fantasai> Peter: Anne was hoping to publish without having to discuss it too much.
  98. # [18:24] <fantasai> Peter: Any feedback? Can we publish?
  99. # [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm happy with publishing
  100. # [18:24] <fantasai> howcome: me too
  101. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: worksforme
  102. # [18:25] <fantasai> Peter: any objections?
  103. # [18:25] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish Media Queries as LC
  104. # [18:26] <fantasai> Peter: Any groups we need to ask for review?
  105. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: lots of groups are interested
  106. # [18:26] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.214.167)
  107. # [18:26] <fantasai> dbaron: One group that's not part of the usual suspects is whatever the Device Independence WG has been renamed to this year
  108. # [18:26] <fantasai> Peter: How long?
  109. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think we want to have an LC period that is especially short
  110. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: Somewhere between 4 and 6 weeks should be good
  111. # [18:28] <fantasai> fantasai: Do we want to aim for CR immediately before TPAC?
  112. # [18:28] <fantasai> Steve: Better to get feedback at TPAC and publish immediately after
  113. # [18:28] <dsinger> (sorry, I can't call in, AT&T cellular has run out of circuits. I'll keep trying. sorry to be late also)
  114. # [18:29] <fantasai> Peter: So 4 weeks, aim for CR early after TPAC?
  115. # [18:30] <fantasai> Steve: Do we want to jump from LC to CR?
  116. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: Don't have a completed test suite
  117. # [18:30] <dbaron> s/to CR/to PR/
  118. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't like leaving drafts in LC for like 6 years
  119. # [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Media Queries published as LC with 4 weeks for comment, aim for CR early after TPAC
  120. # [18:31] <fantasai> Topic: TPAC
  121. # [18:31] <fantasai> Peter: Wanted to remind everyone to register if you haven't already
  122. # [18:31] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/#Registration
  123. # [18:31] <fantasai> Topic: Vendor Extensions
  124. # [18:32] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Aug/0255.html
  125. # [18:32] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@82.230.92.154) (Ping timeout)
  126. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Microsoft posted that they're going through the properties they implemented without a prefix and adding -ms-
  127. # [18:32] <fantasai> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/09/08/microsoft-css-vendor-extensions.aspx
  128. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: For several properties here there have been implementations by other browser vendors, so they are ineffect de-facto standards
  129. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: It wouldn't be good to require the prefix for those.
  130. # [18:34] <fantasai> Sylvain: The prefix isn't required, it's optional.
  131. # [18:35] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.71)
  132. # [18:35] <fantasai> Sylvain: If you want to be really strict, then you can use the prefixed version.
  133. # [18:35] <fantasai> Sylvain: Other issue is do implementations of those properties really match
  134. # [18:36] <fantasai> Sylvain: Finally, if we're talking about CSS3 properties like writing-mode, the issue is that until things are at CR their behavior is not stable.
  135. # [18:36] <fantasai> Peter: When I read through the article it wasn't clear whether IE8 Standards mode would reject non-prefixed versions.
  136. # [18:37] <fantasai> Sylvain: No, the non-prefixed version is still supported. Otherwise that would break the world
  137. # [18:38] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not sure encouraging them to use the prefixed version is good for overflow-x and overflow-y. Those are widely implemented
  138. # [18:39] <fantasai> Arron: Wasn't there a discussion about how overflow-x and overflow-y conflict with each other?
  139. # [18:39] <fantasai> dbaron: I thought the spec was pretty clear about that
  140. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: I think if the prefix is optional then that's fine
  141. # [18:39] <fantasai> Peter: I think it's great to see MSFT is doing this
  142. # [18:40] <fantasai> Steve: I would second that
  143. # [18:40] <SaloniR> :)
  144. # [18:40] <howcome> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-gcpm/Overview.html
  145. # [18:40] <fantasai> Topic: 'page' Property
  146. # [18:40] <fantasai> Peter: we only have 5 minutes
  147. # [18:40] <fantasai> howcome: 'page' was in CSS2, removed and put back in CSS3 Paged Media
  148. # [18:41] <fantasai> howcome: Consideration here is to change it from inherited to non-inherited
  149. # [18:41] <fantasai> howcome: One of the use cases in CSS2 would change its behavior
  150. # [18:41] <fantasai> howcome: When you have two sibling elements with the same "page: foo", then in the old behavior those would appear on the same page if there's room
  151. # [18:41] <dsinger> (it seems at&t wireless has a technical problem, the very day the cellular show CTIA opens here in SF. sorry.)
  152. # [18:42] <fantasai> howcome: There wouldn't be an implicit page break between them
  153. # [18:42] <fantasai> howcome: In the new proposal any element that has set a named page will lead to a page break before it
  154. # [18:42] <fantasai> howcome: so those would appear on two separate pages
  155. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: Printer implementations would break. I think that's a problem for HP, Epson, etc.
  156. # [18:43] <fantasai> howcome: This would make possible a lot of things that were not possible in the past
  157. # [18:43] <fantasai> howcome: for example styling the first page of a section separately
  158. # [18:43] <fantasai> howcome: this is mainly a discussion between myself, Antenna House, and HP
  159. # [18:44] <fantasai> howcome: we should do this now rather than in a year's time because we want implementations to progress
  160. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm concerned about backwards compatibility.
  161. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Maybe if we keep the behavior of the siblings staying on the same page
  162. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: and have :first apply if the new section also is assinged a forced page break
  163. # [18:47] <fantasai> howcome: we should probably discuss this on the mailing list, but I wanted to make sure everyone who wanted to participate in the discussions is aware
  164. # [18:48] <fantasai> Peter: I know Melinda was very concerned about this. Ideally we want to move forward without breaking backwards-compatibility
  165. # [18:48] <fantasai> howcome: It's hard to solve all these use cases and constraints, but if somebody can do it that would be great
  166. # [18:49] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  167. # [18:49] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  168. # [18:49] <Zakim> -howcome
  169. # [18:49] <Zakim> -Jason_Cranford_Teague
  170. # [18:49] <Zakim> -MoZ
  171. # [18:49] <Zakim> -Jeff_Willson
  172. # [18:49] * Quits: JeffW (824c2013@67.207.141.120) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  173. # [18:49] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog, salonir, arronei
  174. # [18:49] <Zakim> +alexmog, salonir, arronei; got it
  175. # [18:49] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  176. # [18:49] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  177. # [18:50] <Zakim> -fantasai
  178. # [18:50] <Zakim> -plinss
  179. # [18:50] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  180. # [18:50] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.760.741.aaaa, plinss, +1.510.981.aabb, fantasai, +1.703.265.aacc, David_Baron, Jason_Cranford_Teague, +47.21.64.aadd, sylvaing, howcome, SteveZ, Saloni,
  181. # [18:50] <Zakim> ... +95247aaee, MoZ, +1.253.250.aaff, Jeff_Willson, [Mozilla], alexmog, salonir, arronei
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  193. # [21:12] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  204. # Session Close: Thu Sep 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)