/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-09-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 17 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  15. # [17:37] <glazou> hello
  16. # [17:41] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@82.230.92.154)
  17. # [17:41] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  18. # [17:41] <MoZ> Zakim, this will be css
  19. # [17:41] <Zakim> ok, MoZ; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
  20. # [17:41] <MoZ> Zakim, remind me in 20 minutes
  21. # [17:41] <Zakim> ok, MoZ
  22. # [17:42] <glazou> not sure we'll have a quorum today, a lot of people sent regrets
  23. # [17:58] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  24. # [17:59] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.29.60.226)
  25. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  26. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +95089aaaa
  27. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, +95089aaaa is me
  28. # [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  29. # [18:02] <Zakim> MoZ, you asked to be reminded at this time
  30. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
  31. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P24
  32. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, +??P24 is fantasai
  33. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+??P24'
  34. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, ??P24 is fantasai
  35. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  36. # [18:05] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  37. # [18:05] * Joins: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12)
  38. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  39. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  40. # [18:05] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  41. # [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  42. # [18:06] <glazou> 4 of us only
  43. # [18:06] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla]
  44. # [18:06] * Zakim [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  45. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  46. # [18:06] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  47. # [18:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  48. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P16
  49. # [18:07] <Zakim> +MohamedZergaoui
  50. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is anne
  51. # [18:07] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  52. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Bert
  53. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Jason_Cranford_Teague
  54. # [18:09] * Joins: Ming (ming.gao@75.25.161.241)
  55. # [18:10] <melinda> invite rrsagent
  56. # [18:10] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  57. # [18:10] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/17-css-irc
  58. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.858.792.aabb
  59. # [18:11] <dbaron> Zakim, aabb is Ming
  60. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Ming; got it
  61. # [18:11] <melinda> meeting: CSS Weekly Teleconference
  62. # [18:11] <melinda> chair: Daniel Glazman
  63. # [18:11] <melinda> scribe: melinda
  64. # [18:11] <melinda> Topic: Agenda
  65. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
  66. # [18:11] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/
  67. # [18:12] <melinda> David: I sent an item for SVGMobile Last Call
  68. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  69. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, aacc is SteveZ
  70. # [18:12] <Zakim> +SteveZ; got it
  71. # [18:12] <melinda> Zakim, attendees
  72. # [18:12] <Zakim> I don't understand 'attendees', melinda
  73. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  74. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], Melinda_Grant, anne, MohamedZergaoui, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, Ming, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
  75. # [18:12] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  76. # [18:12] <melinda> Zakim, who is here?
  77. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], Melinda_Grant, anne, MohamedZergaoui, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, Ming, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
  78. # [18:12] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Ming, jason_cranfordtea, dbaron, myakura, melinda, Zakim, MoZ, glazou, Hixie, jdaggett, anne, arronei, Bert, plinss, shepazu, DanC, krijnh, trackbot,
  79. # [18:12] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.71)
  80. # [18:12] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  81. # [18:12] <Zakim> ... fantasai
  82. # [18:13] <melinda> Bert: Not a lot of comments;
  83. # [18:14] * dbaron thought STTS was developed by Daniel well before Disruptive Innovations existed...
  84. # [18:14] <melinda> Bert updates us on the minor changes summarized in his email.
  85. # [18:14] <melinda> Daniel: In fact we are back to the previous state where we didn't mention the REC track.
  86. # [18:15] <melinda> ...Steve, are you ok with these changes?
  87. # [18:15] <melinda> ...You were most concerned about which modules were in scope for legal reasons?
  88. # [18:15] <melinda> Steve: I'll need to check with Adobe legal. But I'm not surprised about these changes.
  89. # [18:16] <melinda> Daniel: Hakon isn't here, but left us with a comment asking to move GCPM up from low priority modules.
  90. # [18:16] <melinda> ...I'm a bit reluctant to do that without committment for implementations.
  91. # [18:17] <melinda> Peter: I don't have a problem moving it into the 'medium' priority list, but we can't move it into the 'high' priority list.
  92. # [18:17] <glazou> dbaron: correct, EDF
  93. # [18:17] <melinda> Alex: Do we have two implementations of 'variables'?
  94. # [18:18] <glazou> Bert: s/Disruptive Innovations/Electricité de France although I'd really prefer that mention to be dropped...
  95. # [18:18] <melinda> fantasai: We have one implementation and another 'high interest'.
  96. # [18:18] <fantasai> s/./?/
  97. # [18:19] <melinda> Alex: It would probably help to have an implementation count next to modules.
  98. # [18:20] <melinda> Peter: We collected that info, we can publish it I guess.
  99. # [18:20] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0033.html
  100. # [18:20] <melinda> Daniel: Anyone have problems with the charter now?
  101. # [18:21] <melinda> (Some discussion about changing the liaisson section.
  102. # [18:22] <melinda> Daniel: I suggest we wait for Adobe's reply regarding the charter.
  103. # [18:22] <Zakim> + +1.425.533.aadd
  104. # [18:22] <dbaron> Issues list for css3-color LC is at http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-color
  105. # [18:23] <dbaron> Zakim, aadd is Saloni
  106. # [18:23] <Zakim> +Saloni; got it
  107. # [18:23] <melinda> Topic: CSS3 Color
  108. # [18:23] <melinda> David: I just have one implementation report so far.
  109. # [18:23] <melinda> ... I should probably write one myself for Webkit.
  110. # [18:23] <melinda> ... So I can't really say yet we're ready to move to PR.
  111. # [18:24] * Joins: SaloniR (43b68321@128.30.52.43)
  112. # [18:24] <melinda> ... It's possible we may need to look to Opera as well, because Webkit may be missing a couple.
  113. # [18:24] <melinda> ...I've proposed resolutions to some of the issues remaining, so we could discuss them I think.
  114. # [18:24] <melinda> Steve: Is CMYK in or out?
  115. # [18:24] <melinda> David: Out.
  116. # [18:25] <melinda> fantasai: I checked with HP, and there's really no defined standard for CMYK.
  117. # [18:26] <melinda> Steve: I checked with ICC about standardizing CMYK, and they indicated there are three (US, Europe, Japan).
  118. # [18:26] <melinda> ... None are suitable, but there is apparently some interest in coming up with a default that's interoperable.
  119. # [18:26] <melinda> Daniel: David, I see 19 issues on your page.
  120. # [18:27] <melinda> David: Issue 2
  121. # [18:27] <anne> (I don't think Opera does 'opacity' entirely correct yet. rgba() and such have been implemented as part of Acid3 work though are not in release builds.)
  122. # [18:27] <melinda> ...There's a request to restructure the TOC.
  123. # [18:27] <melinda> ... There's an advantage to keeping the current numbering because people have been using it for years.
  124. # [18:28] <melinda> ...On the other hand the spec could benefit from some reorg.
  125. # [18:28] <melinda> Daniel: So the proposal is to move gamma correction...
  126. # [18:28] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Mar/0405.html
  127. # [18:28] <melinda> David: That's a minor part; the bulk of the proposal's in the first URL's in the issue.
  128. # [18:29] <melinda> Anne: I think it's best to keep as is; we can reorg in level 4 as necessary.
  129. # [18:29] <melinda> fantasai: How about we remove dependencies?
  130. # [18:30] <melinda> ...Remove Section 2 and put gamma correction (scribe lost it...)
  131. # [18:30] <fantasai> David: there's an issue on removing the gamma correction section since it's mostly wrong
  132. # [18:31] <melinda> David: There's another proposal to remove the gamma section, so don't get too into the details of where it goes yet.
  133. # [18:31] <melinda> David: My tendency is to keep it pretty much as is.
  134. # [18:31] <melinda> Daniel: Yes, let's keep it as is and move things around for CSS4.
  135. # [18:32] <melinda> David: Another thing I want to discuss (not really in css3-color, but affects the whole group)
  136. # [18:32] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0006.html
  137. # [18:32] <melinda> ...People don't really like our use of the word 'interoperable'.
  138. # [18:33] <melinda> Melinda: I agree.
  139. # [18:33] <melinda> ... but it's broadly misused within the W3.
  140. # [18:33] <melinda> Daniel: Yes, this goes far beyond the CSS WG.
  141. # [18:34] <melinda> ...Let's leave the wording as is and I will take it to the mailing list for W3C chairs or the HTCG.
  142. # [18:34] <Bert> ("Interoperable" is the word used in the W3C process document...)
  143. # [18:35] <melinda> David: Many of the other issues are trivial in that they are totally editorial or they're proposing new features that we're obviously not going to add now.
  144. # [18:35] <melinda> ...There are a few others that I would like to propose solutions for before we discuss.
  145. # [18:35] <melinda> Daniel: Conference call or upcoming f2f?
  146. # [18:36] <melinda> David: I think it depends on how quickly I can get to them.
  147. # [18:36] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0207.html
  148. # [18:36] <melinda> Topic: Negative border spacing
  149. # [18:36] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0060.html
  150. # [18:36] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0161.html
  151. # [18:37] <melinda> fantasai: Now negative lengths are not allowed, but it's been discussed on www-style to get some interesting effects without actually collapsing...
  152. # [18:37] <melinda> ...When do we want to tackle this, as a 2.1 or a 3 issue?
  153. # [18:38] <melinda> fantasai discusses some issues...
  154. # [18:39] <melinda> David: This is not something I want to be rushing to implement, so I don't think it's for 2.1.
  155. # [18:39] <melinda> fantasai: We could say in 2.1 that negative widths are clampled to 0, that way they get parsed.
  156. # [18:39] <melinda> David: Which would be yet another change to what UA's do now.
  157. # [18:40] <melinda> Bert: It's better to keep disallowing neg lengths in 2.1, and target this for Level 3.
  158. # [18:41] <melinda> Melinda: My preference would be not to change 2.1 unless we need to.
  159. # [18:41] <SaloniR> no objection
  160. # [18:41] <melinda> Daniel, David: We should keep it on the radar for CSS3.
  161. # [18:41] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  162. # [18:41] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/64
  163. # [18:41] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/63
  164. # [18:42] <melinda> RESOLVED: Not for 2.1, keep for 3.
  165. # [18:42] <melinda> Topic: Issue 63, new background shorthand
  166. # [18:42] * Zakim melinda, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  167. # [18:42] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0145.html
  168. # [18:42] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0142.html
  169. # [18:43] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  170. # [18:43] <melinda> fantasai: I remember having an issue to remove the parens for background shorthand.
  171. # [18:44] <melinda> Anne: The previous draft does use the parentheses. Why did we decide to change this?
  172. # [18:45] <melinda> fantasai: Because we don't yet use them, and it didn't seem necessary here (we wanted to save them for other disambiguation).
  173. # [18:45] <fantasai> where grouping is important
  174. # [18:45] <melinda> fantasai: I think Bert and I should take a closer look at this.
  175. # [18:46] <melinda> David: this is not urgent for me yet because we're not implementing background size yet. You could possibly use a fn.
  176. # [18:46] <melinda> fantasai: but the value itself doesn't take a function.
  177. # [18:46] <melinda> ... we do use a slash in the font shorthand.
  178. # [18:46] <melinda> David: But there it's used after a mandatory part.
  179. # [18:47] <melinda> fantasai: I understand there's a problem here, but I'm not convinced fn notation is the answer.
  180. # [18:47] * anne wonders who's playing Darth Vader
  181. # [18:47] <melinda> ACTION: Bert to propose new syntax.
  182. # [18:47] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  183. # [18:47] * RRSAgent records action 1
  184. # [18:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-105 - Propose new syntax. [on Bert Bos - due 2008-09-24].
  185. # [18:48] <glazou> SVG MObile
  186. # [18:48] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/
  187. # [18:48] <melinda> Topic: SVGMobile
  188. # [18:48] <shepazu> I'm here if anyone has questions
  189. # [18:48] <melinda> David: They issues a Last Call with a 4 week review period.
  190. # [18:49] <melinda> s/issues/issued/
  191. # [18:49] <dbaron> I'd note Chapter 10 has font-* properties (CSS2.0 definitions, via XSL) and a bunch of text properties (mostly different from ours)
  192. # [18:49] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  193. # [18:49] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  194. # [18:49] <melinda> David: I encourage everyone to look at this. They are using different definitions for our font and text properties.
  195. # [18:49] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  196. # [18:49] <fantasai> anne, see this message wrt background shorthand - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2006May/0121.html
  197. # [18:50] <shepazu> q+
  198. # [18:50] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  199. # [18:50] <melinda> Daniel: We need an extensive review of our properties versus theirs...
  200. # [18:50] <melinda> Doug: Are there major differences in this draft?
  201. # [18:50] <glazou> ack shepazu
  202. # [18:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  203. # [18:51] <melinda> David: The flowing text stuff is new.
  204. # [18:51] <melinda> Doug: I want to be sure we don't open old wounds for stuff that's been in there for several years.
  205. # [18:51] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai review text properties in svg draft
  206. # [18:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  207. # [18:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Review text properties in svg draft [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-09-24].
  208. # [18:51] <melinda> s/I want/I just want/
  209. # [18:53] <melinda> Doug: One of the issues with Tiny is that we're playing catch-up with implementations, and we really need to get this wrapped up.
  210. # [18:53] <melinda> ... We're not as constrained wrt the 2.0 family.
  211. # [18:53] <melinda> s/with Tiny/with the 1.x series of Tiny/
  212. # [18:54] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  213. # [18:54] <melinda> ACTION bert review svg draft
  214. # [18:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  215. # [18:54] <trackbot> Created ACTION-107 - Review svg draft [on Bert Bos - due 2008-09-24].
  216. # [18:55] <melinda> Melinda: Do we want to coordinate a group review or just send out individual comments?
  217. # [18:55] <melinda> David: I suggest individual review because of the size.
  218. # [18:56] <melinda> Daniel: I agree.
  219. # [18:57] <melinda> ... If we see an issue we think is quite large, we can comment on it as a group. But for smaller things, I think individual comments will be more efficient.
  220. # [18:58] <melinda> fantasai: I see rather large issues...
  221. # [18:58] <melinda> Daniel: What about a wiki page?
  222. # [18:58] <melinda> ...we can collect comments there and send the whole page...
  223. # [18:59] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.60.226) (Quit: Leaving...)
  224. # [18:59] <melinda> fantasai: I'm of the opinion we should send individual comments and deal with problems that arise from that as a group.
  225. # [19:00] <glazou> "Please send comments to www-svg@w3.org"
  226. # [19:00] <melinda> We will send issues to www-svg, and cc www-style, and add a link to the archive on an issues list on the wiki.
  227. # [19:01] <melinda> Each person submitting an issue needs to update the wiki.
  228. # [19:01] <melinda> Peter: You can add a note on the wiki about group discussion as necessary.
  229. # [19:02] <melinda> Daniel: Other agenda items?
  230. # [19:02] <melinda> Steve: I will miss the next three meetings due to travel.
  231. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  232. # [19:02] * dbaron registered for the TPAC many many months ago
  233. # [19:02] * glazou too
  234. # [19:02] <fantasai> Steve: Jason, do you have an overview of your website redesign plan?
  235. # [19:03] <fantasai> Jason: No, my manager's been pulling back on how much time I can spend on this stuff
  236. # [19:03] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Connection reset by peer)
  237. # [19:03] <fantasai> Jason: Direction we outlined in San Diego is on hold until IJ's site-wide redesign goes forward
  238. # [19:03] <fantasai> Jason: We need to figure out how we fit into that
  239. # [19:03] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  240. # [19:04] <melinda> rrsagent, make logs public
  241. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, melinda
  242. # [19:04] <fantasai> Fantasai: I think the information design is going to stay mostly the same, but the visuals might change a lot from what we discussed in SD
  243. # [19:04] <melinda> rrsagent, create minutes
  244. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/17-css-minutes.html melinda
  245. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  246. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Jason_Cranford_Teague
  247. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Ming
  248. # [19:04] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  249. # [19:05] <Zakim> -anne
  250. # [19:05] <Zakim> -plinss
  251. # [19:05] <Zakim> -MohamedZergaoui
  252. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  253. # [19:05] <Zakim> -glazou
  254. # [19:05] <Zakim> -fantasai
  255. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Saloni
  256. # [19:05] * glazou is now known as glazou_daddyDuty
  257. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Bert
  258. # [19:05] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  259. # [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, plinss, fantasai, David_Baron, Melinda_Grant, MohamedZergaoui, anne, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, +1.858.792.aabb, Ming, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft],
  260. # [19:05] <Zakim> ... SteveZ, +1.425.533.aadd, Saloni, Shepazu
  261. # [19:07] * Quits: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12) (Quit: jason_cranfordtea)
  262. # [19:07] <melinda> rrsagent, create minutes
  263. # [19:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/17-css-minutes.html melinda
  264. # [19:07] * Quits: Ming (ming.gao@75.25.161.241) (Quit: Ming)
  265. # [19:07] * Joins: Ming (ming.gao@75.25.161.241)
  266. # [19:07] <MoZ> fantasai, what is the link to the wiki page ?
  267. # [19:07] <fantasai> haven't created it yet
  268. # [19:07] <Ming> exit
  269. # [19:07] <Ming> quit
  270. # [19:07] * Quits: Ming (ming.gao@75.25.161.241) (Quit: Ming)
  271. # [19:07] <fantasai> I'll send a link to w3c-css-wg
  272. # [19:08] * Quits: SaloniR (43b68321@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  273. # [19:08] <MoZ> fantasai: thx
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  287. # [21:13] <fantasai> ACTION Daniel take http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0006.html to HTCG/chairs
  288. # [21:13] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  289. # [21:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-108 - Take http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0006.html to HTCG/chairs [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-09-24].
  290. # [23:11] <dbaron> fantasai, [1.2T-LC] was the email prefix suggested in SVGMobile12
  291. # [23:14] <shepazu> should I reply to www-style as well as www-svg?
  292. # [23:15] <shepazu> I'm concerned that our action and issue numbers might get mixed up in our respective Trackers, and also that it would generate a lot of cross-list posting...
  293. # [23:15] <shepazu> but I also don't want people to get left out of the loop...
  294. # [23:15] <shepazu> dbaron, fantasai, suggestions?
  295. # [23:16] <shepazu> in general, I don't think it's a good idea to crosspost for LC questions
  296. # [23:16] <dbaron> I don't either.
  297. # [23:16] <dbaron> Not sure why everyone was saying that in the telecon.
  298. # [23:17] <shepazu> ok, I'll reply only to www-svg and the original poster
  299. # [23:17] <shepazu> and our tracker is publicly visible, so you can always track all comments
  300. # Session Close: Thu Sep 18 00:00:00 2008

The end :)