/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-10-20 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Oct 20 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #css
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# [09:10] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-css-irc
# [09:13] <Hixie> glazou, plinss: i'm around; let me know if/when i should attend the css meeting, i have multiple clashing meetings but am happy to move from one to the other as needs warrant
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# [09:16] <glazou> Hixie: sure thing ; how was discussion with tbl?
# [09:17] <Hixie> good, good
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# [09:21] <glazou> wb CWilso :)
# [09:22] <CWilso> :)
# [09:23] * CWilso expects to float between webapps and css today. If there's anything you particularly want to smack me around on, let me know when.
# [09:23] <glazou> ok, cool
# [09:23] <glazou> we'll start with css system colors at 9:30
# [09:23] <Hixie> quick question about the media queries decisions yesterday -- do they imply any changes required to acid3? should i uncomment out any of the commented out tests?
# [09:23] <glazou> the accessibility guys want us to keep them
# [09:24] <glazou> Hixie: we did not make any MQ decision yesterday hixie
# [09:24] <anne> Hixie, media queries got published with changes that requires stuff to stay commented out
# [09:24] <glazou> we made changes during last call related to error recovery
# [09:24] <Hixie> oh sorry, was looking at last week's minutes
# [09:24] <glazou> yeah
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# [09:25] <glazou> so, yes, that might trigger changes in acid3
# [09:25] <glazou> if acid3 checks error recovery in mdeia value
# [09:25] <glazou> media
# [09:25] <Hixie> ok i'll coordinate with anne
# [09:25] <glazou> ok
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# [09:31] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mandelieu-2008
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# [09:40] <alexmog> scribenick: alexmog
# [09:41] <alexmog> Topic: system colors
# [09:41] <alexmog> Richard is presenting
# [09:42] <alexmog> Richard, IBM accessibility
# [09:43] <alexmog> richard will explain why it is not a good idea to deprecate system clolors
# [09:43] <glazou> s/Richard/Richard Schwerdtfeger
# [09:44] <alexmog> R: with rich internet apps, we can create objects that use system color settings like "icon", "menu" etc.
# [09:45] <alexmog> R: while system colors are available, accessibility can find colors and get idea of a role
# [09:46] <alexmog> DB is trying to understand why we are talking about using things that look like system controls but are not system controls
# [09:47] <glazou> (attendance list monday morning TPAC: jdagget, plinss, alexm, fantasi, dbaron, szilles, Bert, howcome, dino, glazou + Richard Schwerdtfeger)
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# [10:03] <glazou> aaaah
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# [10:12] <alexmog> R: actually it is to keep application colors in sync with system settings. e.g. if there is a system color for highlight it can be applied to tree widgets
# [10:12] <alexmog> Hakon: do you know about personal stylesheet
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: does is have to lead to CSS system colors as a solution?
# [10:12] <alexmog> Elika: ... ways to override colors based on Aria settings
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: points at the titlebar with a gradient in windows colors dialog
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: css system colors model system effect, but in a simpler way, as a set of colors rather than exact system effects like rounded borders or gradients
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: that is a big rationale for deprecation (colors don't represent exact system effect)
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: another rationale - these are very Windows specific
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: Windows controls are used in controls in multiple combinations that are hard to map to other systems
# [10:12] <alexmog> ... more discussion
# [10:12] <alexmog> JD: I'm concerned that we're going for checking items off a list rather than actually solving the problem
# [10:12] <alexmog> Richard: My concern is mainly about giving the author the ability to ensure enough contrast.
# [10:12] <alexmog> Richard: My suggestion is to pick a baseline set of colors: window bg, text color, highlight colors, and maybe a border color and draw the line there.
# [10:12] <alexmog> Howcome: Can I show you what we do with Opera?
# [10:12] <alexmog> Howcome projects Opera with high-contrast settings.
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: There are other ways to do this besides style sheets
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: Mozilla has the minimum size pref
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: We also have options to say that the browser should ignore colors set by the author.
# [10:12] <alexmog> DB: When we do that, we also preserve transparency, which you can't do with an author style sheet.
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: When you start doing things like that, then you get to the point where a lot of applications will still work.
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: Even if you make government websites meet these requirements, users are going to want to visit other sites as well.
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: You have the option of solving the problem at one point, and you have the option of making all authors try to solve the problem.
# [10:13] <alexmog> SZ: So what I'm hearing is that system colors doesn't solve the problem.
# [10:13] <alexmog> SZ: Maybe the way of solving the problem is identifying ways the browser can enable a disabled person to view the web
# [10:13] <alexmog> SZ: The catch is that the browser is only one aspect of using the computer.
# [10:13] <alexmog> SZ: With system colors, the settings are system-wide
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: When you turn off author colors, usually the browser will use the system colors as the default.
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: The point I was making a few minutes ago, it seems when there's the possibility of solving this problem at one point vs. making each author solve them independently
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: It seems we're going for the high-cost approach.
# [10:13] <alexmog> Richard: The browser doesn't know what the author intended.
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: I'm not saying that the approach I want would mean no work for the author.
# [10:13] <alexmog> DB: For example, the author might have to use appropriate markup to cause the browser to do the right thing.
# [10:13] <alexmog> Richard: That works for standard form controls.
# [10:13] <alexmog> Richard: But when the author is making custom controls, the author needs to make the decisions the browser makes
# [10:13] <alexmog> EE: Couldn't you make the browser style custom controls based on the ARIA attributes?
# [10:13] <alexmog> EE: If the author uses the ARIA attributes correctly (which you're assuming anyway) then the browser can have a setting that forces system colors on those controls based on the ARIA attributes.
# [10:13] <alexmog> EE: I note that if you make the authors do the coloring work, most of them will get it wrong.
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# [10:13] <alexmog> Howcome shows Opera's high-contrast and zoom settings on Yahoo Mail
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# [10:14] * CWilso is it demo day already? ;)
# [10:15] <alexmog> richard point at selection not being visible at yahoo inbox
# [10:15] * dino_ - it's always demo day with Hakon around
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# [10:15] <alexmog> JD: how would system colors help here?
# [10:16] <alexmog> Richard: because it uses highlight colors of the system
# [10:18] <alexmog> EE: aria attributes have enough information to be able to render with the right colors
# [10:18] <alexmog> AM: Aria has coarser granularity, not enough to represent UI elements
# [10:19] <glazou> CWilso: you're in France, just thank Orange...
# [10:19] <glazou> because demos w/o connectivity...
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# [10:20] <alexmog> discussing tabs on Orange page example...
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# [10:21] <alexmog> DB: tabs are really really complicated. questioning if system colors will help
# [10:22] <alexmog> EE: browser shoud be able to make things look like tabs...
# [10:22] <alexmog> AM is not sure what it means
# [10:23] <alexmog> Hakon reminds about mobile
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# [10:27] <fantasai> Alex: So what I'm hearing is that you want system colors so that someone who has the budget to really do a lot of accessibility work they can make a really cool-looking app with system colors
# [10:28] <fantasai> EE: System colors don't give you access to the gradients, bitmaps, etc. that you need to make a modern-looking app
# [10:28] <fantasai> EE: If you want to use system colors, sure you can get enough contrast
# [10:28] <fantasai> EE: But your web app will look like a Windows 3.1 application
# [10:28] <fantasai> EE: That's the best you can do with system colors
# [10:29] <fantasai> EE: The browser can get access to all of that stylistic information and draw real-looking controls
# [10:29] <fantasai> EE: If it has a way of knowing what to draw where
# [10:31] <fantasai> Richard: ...
# [10:31] <fantasai> Richard: I'm proposing that you have four basic colors so you can draw controls with enough contrast
# [10:32] <fantasai> Peter: That won't be enough
# [10:32] <fantasai> DB: I'd like to point out that deprecated doesn't mean gone.
# [10:32] <fantasai> DB: Deprecated means there's a better solution
# [10:32] <fantasai> DB: It might be not quite ready yet, but this is not the right permanent solution
# [10:32] <fantasai> Richard: What's the better solution?
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# [10:33] <fantasai> DB: Some combination of better markup for controls and the CSS 'appearance' property
# [10:39] <fantasai> EE: Deprecation means they shouldn't be used in favor of something else (the 'appearance' property), but they are still required to be supported.
# [10:39] <fantasai> DB: Mozilla has supported system colors for ages.
# [10:40] <Bert> QA definition of deprecated: http://www.w3.org/QA/glossary
# [10:40] <fantasai> PL: It uses them to render its own UI, so it has more capability for representing system-based UI than is in that spec
# [10:40] <Bert> "An existing feature that has become outdated and is in the process of being phased out, usually in favor of a specified replacement. Deprecated features are no longer recommended for use and may cease to exist in future versions of the specification."
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# [10:42] <fantasai> Richard: So I'd request that you add that wording to css3-color
# [10:42] <fantasai> DB: I've added it to my issues list
# [10:42] <fantasai> Richard: And we need to come up with a solution
# [10:42] <fantasai> JD: I think it needs to be at a higher semantic level
# [10:43] <fantasai> SZ: It would be nice if css3-color linked informatively to the 'appearance' property
# [10:45] <glazou> (***** slot for coffee break is 1hr starting 10:30 *****)
# [10:49] <fantasai> discussion about custom controls, HTML5, system colors, accessibility, etc
# [10:50] <fantasai> Richard: lotus Notes 4 had 200 custom controls
# [10:51] <fantasai> ...
# [10:52] <fantasai> Richard: So you're saying that these colors are supported in IE, Opera, Mozilla, and WebKit?
# [10:52] <fantasai> DB: more or less
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# [10:52] <fantasai> DB: but I've had to go through and write implementation reports for these
# [10:53] <fantasai> DB: and I couldn't mark them all as passing
# [10:53] <fantasai> DB: Each time it was some bizarre judgement call
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# [10:53] <fantasai> DB: about whether the system color approximated what it was supposed to approximate
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# [10:54] <glazou> (****************** COFFEE BREAK TIME ; RETURN 11:10 ****************)
# [10:54] <fantasai> DB: whether or not that thing existed on the OS I was running the test on
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# [11:29] <glazou> ScribeNick glazou
# [11:29] <glazou> ScribeNick: glazou
# [11:30] <glazou> Topic is Apple proposals (transformations, animations, ...)
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# [11:32] <glazou> dino: webkit has made a few extensions to css in response to external user feedback
# [11:32] <glazou> dino: other companies wanted that too
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# [11:32] <glazou> dino: the goal was always to propose it to css wg
# [11:32] <glazou> dino: css transforms, allows to 2d or 3D transform any element
# [11:33] <glazou> dino: transitions, animated effects between two sets of properties in a given time
# [11:33] <glazou> dino: animations, same but with key frames
# [11:33] <glazou> dino: the 3 specs are documented on webkit side, looking like w3c specs
# [11:34] <CWilso> goal should be to discuss/design in the WG, imo
# [11:34] <glazou> dino: webkit nightlies implement transforms, also on iphone, and firefox has in 3.1
# [11:34] <CWilso> :)
# [11:34] <glazou> dino: transitions and animations spec also there
# [11:34] <glazou> CWilso: right
# [11:34] <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSTransforms.html
# [11:34] <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSTransitions.html
# [11:35] <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSAnimation.html
# [11:35] <glazou> glazou: are all specs implemented ?
# [11:35] <glazou> dino: yes all of them are in nightlies
# [11:35] <glazou> howcome: I'm confused, what are the 3 ?
# [11:35] <glazou> dino: transforms, transitions, animations
# [11:36] <glazou> howcome: where's gradients ?
# [11:36] <dbaron> http://webkit.org/blog/175/introducing-css-gradients/
# [11:36] <dbaron> http://webkit.org/blog/181/css-masks/
# [11:36] <dbaron> http://webkit.org/blog/182/css-reflections/
# [11:36] <glazou> dino: there are 3 more, gradients, masks and reflections, not documented yet very well
# [11:36] <glazou> dino: only on the webkit blog for the time being
# [11:36] * glazou appreciates dino's english accent, easier to minute
# [11:36] * dbaron notes that's an Australian accent!
# [11:37] <glazou> dino shows gradient syntax and example
# [11:37] * Bert thinks reflections will be long out of fashion before we get to them...
# [11:37] * glazou then appreciates down under accent
# [11:37] * glazou thinks Bert is wrong here
# [11:37] <glazou> dino shows reflections syntax and demo
# [11:38] <glazou> glazou: and how many people are already using this ?
# [11:38] <glazou> dino: no idea yet ?
# [11:38] <glazou> howcome: does it change the size of image ?
# [11:38] <glazou> dino: I can't answer on that but I suppose not
# [11:39] <glazou> dino: you have to set a margin and the reflection shows in the margin
# [11:39] <glazou> howcome: why not resize the image ?
# [11:40] <glazou> glazou: probably too complex to predict the size of the whole thing
# [11:40] <glazou> jdagget: the reflection is probably the least interesting
# [11:40] <fantasai> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/wasp-feedback-2008#gradients
# [11:40] <glazou> howcome: can you use MAMA to determine if web sites already use these beasts ?
# [11:40] <glazou> s/howcome/glazou
# [11:40] <glazou> howcome: yes
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# [11:41] <glazou> dino: transforms, animations & transitions are in a state for FPWD
# [11:41] <glazou> dino: not the 3 others
# [11:41] <glazou> fantasai: dbaron sent a lot of comments six months ago, were they addressed ?
# [11:41] <glazou> dino: I assumed they were
# [11:41] <glazou> s/assumed/assume
# [11:42] <glazou> dino: I'm the one editing the specs and I try to keep up to date with feedback
# [11:42] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0223.html
# [11:42] <glazou> dino: transforms is quite tricky, can influence the content's context and that goes beyond my CSS knowledge
# [11:42] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0043.html
# [11:42] <fantasai> those are dbaron's comments
# [11:42] <glazou> szilles: what about rotation ? a few issues were addressed
# [11:43] <Bert> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/css3-box/Overview.html#the-transform contains the latest text I know about transformations.
# [11:43] <glazou> szilles: css syntax rules inconsistent with the proposals too
# [11:43] <dbaron> I recall hyatt responding to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0043.html
# [11:43] <glazou> peter: we discuss it in beijing and cambridge
# [11:44] <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [11:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
# [11:44] <glazou> dbaron: I have implemented these but not sure spec says it already
# [11:45] <glazou> s/dbaron/dino
# [11:45] <glazou> glazou: so ready for FPWD ?
# [11:45] <glazou> dino: yes
# [11:45] <glazou> glazou,szilles: out of scope for current charter
# [11:45] <glazou> dino: yes we target next target
# [11:46] <glazou> dino: current charter is terribly vague but
# [11:46] <glazou> glazou: only a question of a few months
# [11:46] <glazou> dino: yes, that's why we targetted next charter
# [11:47] <glazou> dino: do you think this is acceptable and what kind of review would you like ?
# [11:47] <glazou> szilles: for transformations, there is a reasonnable context
# [11:47] <glazou> szilles: but further down, why isn't it in the scope of the graphics domain?
# [11:48] <glazou> dino: I get your point on masks, and others
# [11:48] <glazou> dino: people use JS to do transitions, animations, transformations
# [11:48] <glazou> dino: this is more dynamic than graphical effect
# [11:48] <glazou> dino: having it in css makes it really easy to edit
# [11:48] <glazou> dino: also important for mobile devices
# [11:49] <glazou> dino: more accessible and not JS-consuming
# [11:49] <glazou> dino: and if you don't support it, the page is still readable
# [11:49] <glazou> dino: quite simple to describe and fits well into something like CSS
# [11:49] <glazou> szilles: so why not SMIL ?
# [11:49] <glazou> dino: these are separate things
# [11:49] <glazou> dino: nothing in SMIL allows you to do such transitions
# [11:50] <glazou> dino: different interaction model and you can't update the CSS OM like we propose to do
# [11:50] <glazou> dino: animations does definitely have an overlap with SMIL
# [11:50] <glazou> dino: we are consistent with SMIL, same timing model and yadayada
# [11:51] <glazou> dino: we wanted to express it as document style rather than markup
# [11:51] <glazou> dino: so it's triggerable by CSS Media Queries
# [11:51] <glazou> jdagget: you could do that using SVG animations
# [11:51] <glazou> dino: yep, you can even apply it to each other
# [11:51] <glazou> howcome: you do svg animations
# [11:51] <glazou> dino: yes, not completely, but enough
# [11:52] <glazou> dino: whoever designed the acid tests deserve credit for that :)
# [11:52] <glazou> (laughs)
# [11:52] <CWilso> ack hi
# [11:52] <glazou> dino: so very well suited for CSS but I understand also why some people say do SMIL instead
# [11:52] * CWilso whoops, wrong window
# [11:52] <dbaron> http://developer.mozilla.org/web-tech/2008/09/15/svg-effects-for-html-content/
# [11:53] <dbaron> (and http://developer.mozilla.org/web-tech/2008/10/10/svg-external-document-references/ )
# [11:53] <glazou> dino: but it's easy for authors
# [11:53] <glazou> fantasai: when we asked from feddback from WASP, a lot of people requested gradients in CSS
# [11:53] <dbaron> s/feddback/feedback/
# [11:54] <glazou> fantasai: for some of the other effects, the idea of applying SVG is better
# [11:54] <glazou> fantasai: don't duplicate things, don't have different ways for same thing
# [11:54] <glazou> fantasai: creating duplication adds complexity for the others
# [11:54] <glazou> dino does not agree apparently
# [11:55] <glazou> glazou: having all of this in CSS makes my job easier for BlueGriffon
# [11:56] <glazou> Bert and howcome discussing purity vs. pragmatism
# [11:57] <glazou> jdaggett: SVG people want a lot of things
# [11:57] <glazou> dino: there're not many people in the world who can do SVG filters that well
# [11:57] <glazou> fantasai: SVG libraries ?
# [11:57] <glazou> fantasai: again, I have comments "don't duplicate features' entry points"
# [11:58] <glazou> (shepazu enters the meeting room)
# [11:58] <glazou> Bert: CSS and HTML I want to write by hand
# [11:58] <glazou> Bert: SVG no
# [11:58] <glazou> dino: CSS should allow to make the easy things easily
# [11:59] <glazou> dino: full SVG power for complicated stuff
# [11:59] <glazou> szilles: I'm lost
# [11:59] <glazou> szilles: reflection is mostly graphic
# [11:59] <glazou> szilles: that's more relevant in graphics spec
# [11:59] <glazou> jdaggett: SVG ?
# [11:59] <glazou> szilles: yeah a spec like SVG
# [12:00] <glazou> szilles: should a reflected image itself be an object ?
# [12:00] * Parts: alexmog (alexmog@81.253.47.4)
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# [12:00] <glazou> glazou: just like a complex shadow ?
# [12:01] <glazou> plinss: why not a pseudo-element so it can be styled ?
# [12:02] <glazou> howcome demos reflection in video using SVG
# [12:02] <glazou> glazou: hard to implement in wysiwyg editors
# [12:03] <glazou> shepazu: I don't see why you shouldn't have it in css if it fits into css
# [12:03] <glazou> fantasai: again, not a lot of requests for reflections from authors
# [12:03] <glazou> shepazu: they do it as a graphic !
# [12:04] <glazou> shepazu: if css is available, they'll use it
# [12:04] <glazou> glazou: clap clap clap
# [12:04] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm saying, let's add the ability to use SVG filters on an HTML document
# [12:04] <fantasai> fantasai: so that these things are possible
# [12:04] <glazou> dino: we try to be compatible with whatever is already implemented
# [12:04] <fantasai> fantasai: and then see if there's a demand for syntactic shortcuts
# [12:05] <glazou> dino: SVG linear gradients have extra capabilities, that's all
# [12:05] <glazou> dino compares CSS and SVG proposals here
# [12:05] <glazou> dino: pretty much exactly the same, expressed more in a CSS way
# [12:05] <glazou> alexm: do specs belong to CSS charter?
# [12:06] <glazou> alexm seems to be in favor of CSS-ing all of this
# [12:06] <fantasai> glazou, that is not a fair summary
# [12:06] <glazou> fantasai, fix it please
# [12:07] <fantasai> alexm: For transitions and animations I do not see a reason why this does not belong to CSS
# [12:07] <glazou> dino makes a demo with the iphone emulator
# [12:07] <fantasai> alexm: In the 21st century there should be a declarative way of specifying this
# [12:07] <glazou> s/emulator/simulator
# [12:08] <glazou> dino: written in JS and CSS, 200 lines of JS and 20 of CSS
# [12:08] <glazou> dino: we moved content from JS code to CSS? far easier to understand
# [12:08] <glazou> dino: if users understand css, they understand that
# [12:08] <glazou> dino: the frame rate improved too
# [12:09] <glazou> dino: we have 3 different animations at the same time here
# [12:09] <glazou> dino: nice effect doable with CSS
# [12:09] <glazou> Bert: hey, make one big animated GIF
# [12:09] <glazou> jdaggett,shepazu: uuuuuuuh
# [12:10] <glazou> howcome: what if animations are not here ?
# [12:10] <glazou> dino shows
# [12:10] <glazou> howcomes: we did replace JS rollovers with :hover
# [12:11] <glazou> dino: you can use the DOM to trigger your animations
# [12:11] <glazou> Bert expressed wishes that are not exactly in line with modern web sites :-)
# [12:11] <glazou> dino shows another demo of movable objects in a page with 1 line of -webkit-* css
# [12:11] <glazou> Bert: transitions, agreed, very useful
# [12:12] <glazou> dino shows an even cooler demo
# [12:12] <glazou> dino shows a 3d demo, very nice indeed
# [12:12] <glazou> Bert: transforms ok but low priority
# [12:13] <glazou> Bert: but why animations ?
# [12:13] <glazou> Bert: why should I have animations in a site I use for my work ?
# [12:14] <glazou> dino: use style sheet disables animations !
# [12:14] <glazou> Bert: good argument
# [12:14] <fantasai> s/use/user/
# [12:14] <glazou> Bert: we'll have a thousand properties and css won't be usable any more
# [12:14] <glazou> Bert: css is for the low end
# [12:15] <glazou> Bert: you don't have to know css
# [12:15] <glazou> glazou: false with my nvu hat
# [12:15] <glazou> fantasai: 2-columns layout
# [12:16] <glazou> glazou: basics of css are easy, but false you can edit nice stuff w/o deep language
# [12:16] <fantasai> I note that CSS has no facility for 2-column layout, table-cell display in IE will help with that
# [12:16] <glazou> Bert: at-rule are terrible for instance
# [12:17] <glazou> all: uuuh ?
# [12:18] <glazou> glazou: I totally disagree with that, and I authored a book on css2
# [12:18] <glazou> shepazu: if you ask the CSS teams of browsers if they are interested in this, they'll reply yes
# [12:18] <glazou> glazou: mozilla already started
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# [12:19] <glazou> Bert: you have to observe people writing CSS
# [12:19] <glazou> glazou: I do that all the time, Nvu has 3.5 million users !
# [12:19] <glazou> shepazu: really complicated to use JS to do that
# [12:19] <glazou> shepazu: copying 1 line of CSS is far easier !
# [12:19] * glazou nods
# [12:19] <glazou> Bert: but not SMIL
# [12:20] <glazou> glazou: are you chosing the most complex solution all the time ?
# [12:20] <glazou> (anne and hixie join)
# [12:22] <glazou> glazou: it will end up in the same block of declarations anyway
# [12:22] <glazou> Bert: don't use CSS
# [12:22] <glazou> alexmog: we should do it
# [12:22] <glazou> shepazu: is mozilla interested ?
# [12:23] <glazou> dbaron: we already do transforms and are looking at animations/transitions
# [12:23] <glazou> shepazu: what about google
# [12:24] <glazou> Hixie: chrome will ship this, yes
# [12:24] <glazou> shepazu: so the 4 major browsers will *do* it
# [12:24] <glazou> shepazu: it seems to me this is the reality of what authors want to do
# [12:24] <glazou> shepazu: they won't do it if authors don't want it
# [12:25] <glazou> Bert: I'm more and more convinced that Andy was right saying immplementors should not decide what goes into CSS
# [12:25] <glazou> Bert: clean design will go away
# [12:25] <glazou> shepazu will probably faint before end of the meeting
# [12:26] <glazou> Hixie: all authors want animations, so much script to do this crap
# [12:26] <glazou> shepazu: replacing script anywhere is good
# [12:26] <glazou> Bert: agreed but not in css
# [12:27] <glazou> glazou: this is an animated discussion and I want a transition :)
# [12:27] <glazou> dino: to followup on ian, we've a big web site and we try to make things easier for wes sites authors
# [12:27] <glazou> shepazu: not having these things leads to inaccessible pages
# [12:28] <glazou> howcome: come on, easy to turn them off
# [12:29] <glazou> glazou: we'll have it anyways I think
# [12:29] <glazou> shepazu: it'll be in every browser in 1.5 year
# [12:29] <glazou> Bert: you are killing the Web
# [12:29] <glazou> shepazu leaves, his face red and breath short :-)
# [12:29] <glazou> shepazu comes back :)
# [12:31] <fantasai> steve: Doug, in his discussion, said that this propagation of features from one specification to another only make s sense if the results are coordinated so that we don't get conflicts in the models
# [12:31] <fantasai> steve: so that the models are sufficeintly similar so that one implementation can implement both
# [12:31] <fantasai> steve: it's a different entry point to the same feature, that is easier to to use
# [12:31] <glazou> shepazu: a person can still choose to do SMIL
# [12:32] <glazou> anne: there's already coordination happening
# [12:32] <glazou> anne: the main problem are prefixes
# [12:32] <glazou> szilles: only emphasizing it should be coordinated
# [12:33] <glazou> shepazu: the svg wg would like to know about the stuff but is confident about coordination
# [12:34] <fantasai> shepazu: using css transforms, animations, could be useful in svg as well
# [12:34] <fantasai> glazou: In order to bring this through the rec track, we need more presence from Apple
# [12:34] <fantasai> glazou: and more people on the wg capable of discussing these technically
# [12:34] <glazou> dino: conf calls are difficult for me, 3am
# [12:34] <glazou> dino: dsinger can attend often, but less technical but can relay
# [12:34] <glazou> dino: ftf are hard, but hard
# [12:35] <glazou> dino: it's time
# [12:35] <fantasai> glazou: My point, if you are not carrying your specs no one else is going to do that
# [12:35] <glazou> dino: we offered to do it
# [12:36] <fantasai> glazou, fantasai: but you need to be present and participate in discussion
# [12:36] <fantasai> glazou, fantasai: we can try to work with logistic,s e.g. set up a new telecon at a better time, but you have to put in the time and effort to show up
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# [12:37] <fantasai> glazou: we also need coordination with other browser vendors
# [12:37] <glazou> howcome: we have 6 specs here
# [12:37] <glazou> dino: smaller number of specs is better
# [12:37] <glazou> fantasai: small specs are better
# [12:38] <glazou> shepazu: authors think they can do it
# [12:38] <glazou> dbaron: current separation seems fine to me
# [12:38] * glazou nods
# [12:38] <glazou> dino: I want to split transforms into 2d and 3d
# [12:38] <glazou> all: agreed
# [12:38] <glazou> fantasai: we should get them on w3.org
# [12:39] <fantasai> s/w3.org/dev.w3.org/
# [12:39] <glazou> dino: we do care about the patent policy
# [12:40] <fantasai> dino: that's one reason we want to bring it to w3c
# [12:40] <fantasai> glazou: I don't think it's a good idea to do that right now, since we are in the process of rechartering
# [12:41] <glazou> dino: there's a 7th proposal
# [12:41] <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/Timed_Media_CSS.html
# [12:41] <glazou> dino: time m
# [12:41] <glazou> dino: timed media in css
# [12:42] <glazou> dino: layout control over time-based elements like video
# [12:42] <glazou> Bert: but that already exists on your computer
# [12:42] <glazou> shepazu shakes his head
# [12:42] * glazou laughs
# [12:42] <fantasai> hixie: I'm a little more dubious about that since they interact with the DOM in a bad way
# [12:42] <fantasai> glazou: I want to draw a few conclusions here
# [12:43] <fantasai> glazou: First, all browser implementors are interested in these specs
# [12:43] <fantasai> glazou: Second, the SVG working is not totally opposed to this, since this has a gnice coordination with what they do and adds another entry point into their stuff
# [12:43] <fantasai> glazou: and it reduces the amount of script on the Web
# [12:44] <fantasai> glazou: Bert sees value in transforms and transitions
# [12:44] <fantasai> Bert: and if animations are as simple as transitions it would be no problem
# [12:44] <fantasai> glazou: Fourth, Apple is willing to put what is necessary to make the proposal evolve along the REC track and has no problem waiting until the end of the rechartering process
# [12:45] <fantasai> glazou: Last, everybody in the group sieems to be intereste din the features, and it is in the scope of the next charter
# [12:45] <Bert> (simple = simple in syntax, i.e., just one new properties and no @rules.)
# [12:45] <fantasai> dino: The specs are on the webkit.org site, we'll leave them there until someone says to move them
# [12:46] <fantasai> glazou: anything else we have to discuss on this?
# [12:46] <fantasai> LUNMCH
# [12:46] * Bert worried that we have new priorities every three months. It seems the real priority is to never finish anything :-(
# [12:46] <fantasai> s/LUNMCH/LUNCH/
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# [14:27] <Bert> Scribe: Bert
# [14:28] <Bert> Topic: Multicol
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# [14:28] <Bert> Håkon shows some images.
# [14:29] <Bert> Håkon: I have no solutions, so this could be more like a workshop...
# [14:29] <glazou> (attendees: jdagget, plinss, sylvaing, fantasai, dbaron, alexmog, Bert, szilles, howcome, glazou)
# [14:29] <Bert> Håkon: Module is quite stable.
# [14:31] <Bert> Håkon: Just one issue: columns aren't really for continuous media, don't want columns longer than the window to avoid scrolling up and down, so height can be constrained...
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# [14:31] <Bert> Håkon: So set height to, e.g., 80% of the page height. But then ou get overflow.
# [14:32] <Bert> Håkon: Where does the overflow go? Two implementations add extra columns on the side.
# [14:32] <Bert> Fantasai: Depends on horiz or vert. context.
# [14:33] <Bert> Alex: Horizontal scrollbar makes sense in vertical text,
# [14:33] <Bert> Fantasai: Stacking columns can be a neat idea, make multiple "pages" of columns, but then need more properties. No single best solution.
# [14:34] <Bert> Alex: Stacking columns can be reasonable if they are about half the vieport height. Can quickly scroll these "pages" into view. Not great, but usable.
# [14:35] <fantasai> Fantasai: also it's really awkward to scroll through that, you need to position your scrollbars so that the entire block of columsn fits within the viewport, then scroll precisely to the next set
# [14:35] <Bert> Steve: If I scroll a column at a time, I keep the context. If I jump to a page, you don't see the context anymore. Cf. turning th epage and no longer remembering the last line at the bottom.
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# [14:36] <Bert> Alex: For immersive reading experience it is important that the next line to read is where the previous ended, even after turning the page.
# [14:36] <fantasai> Alex: Scrolling is really bad for that kind of reading experience
# [14:37] <Bert> Alex: In Word paginated reading mode exists, sicne 2003. at first we had 2 pages on the screen at the time.
# [14:37] <Bert> Alex: We found it's confusing for people.
# [14:37] <Bert> Alex: The sentence that you were reading changes place when you move by one page.
# [14:38] <Bert> Alex: Thought there is a place for that mode too, in some cases.
# [14:39] <Bert> Glazou draws: 3 columns, with text below the view.
# [14:39] <Bert> Peter: Our conclusion was that all modes were valid in some cases, if the designers wants it.
# [14:39] <Bert> Steve: Reason for columns is to keep lines short.
# [14:40] <Bert> Glazou: My drawing has a fixed height with overflow per column.
# [14:40] <Bert> Glazou: There will be overlap.
# [14:40] <Bert> Håkon: Will be an unusable page, consider a phone, e.g.,
# [14:41] <Bert> Glazou: How does user know when to scroll sideways? The overflow is not visible.
# [14:41] <Bert> Håkon: That is an issue. Scrollbar may be turned off.
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# [14:42] <Bert> Steve: That's general question: how do you know there is more than you see?
# [14:42] <Bert> Glazou: In my drawing you will know, because there is overlap.
# [14:42] <Bert> Steve: I don'tt know if that is on purpose.
# [14:42] <Bert> Steve: And it may be below the window,
# [14:43] <Bert> Håkon: 'Overflow' can hide it.
# [14:43] <Bert> Peter: It's always been a UA issue, but not necessarily an issue here.
# [14:43] <Bert> Steve: It can happen with any fixed height block, even without multicol.
# [14:43] <Bert> Alex: Are we discussing a fallback?
# [14:44] <Bert> Håkon: Agree.
# [14:44] <Bert> Alex: There ios no natural way to overflow columns. Traditional is to mke a new page.
# [14:44] <Bert> Håkon: hat's why I think pagination solution is the right thing to do. More work, though...
# [14:45] <Bert> Alex: Author can have a choice, among two non-ideal behaviors.
# [14:45] <Bert> Håkon: Limiting the height is useful, and should not have text overlap other text.
# [14:45] <Bert> Håkon draws paginated columns: 3 columns, then a break, then 3 more columns below that.
# [14:46] <Bert> Fantasai: There are sites that only scroll horizontally. Becaus e they feel like it.
# [14:46] <Bert> Fantasai: Not necessarily bad, as long as you only scroll horiz,
# [14:47] <Bert> Håkon: You can do that by setting a big width.
# [14:48] <Bert> Steve: What width? And you are limited to the screen, so it's overflow anyway.
# [14:48] <Bert> Fantasai: You on't ant fixed height, you want an auto height that is determined by the amount of content.
# [14:49] <Bert> Håkon: Right, needs a separate property column-length or similar.
# [14:49] <Bert> Håkon: Let's look at that in more detail.
# [14:49] <Bert> Håkon: It avoid having toset height.
# [14:49] <Bert> Steve: Now where do they wrap?
# [14:50] <Bert> Håkon, when the column-height is full, you create another set of columns of the same height. It's not overflow.
# [14:50] <Bert> David: But then scrolling is difficult. You have to scroll the exact right amount.
# [14:51] <Bert> Håkon: Meta-solution is to have overflow mode pagination as general feature.
# [14:52] <Bert> Håkon Set overflow-mode: paginate and you will get new pages for all overflow.
# [14:52] <Bert> Håkon: Cf NYT reader.
# [14:52] <Bert> Håkon draws pages with next/previous buttons in the lower right corner.
# [14:52] <Bert> Alex: Who controls the look of the buttons?
# [14:53] <Bert> Peter: And if you set overflow-mode on another elt than the root?
# [14:53] <Bert> Fantasai: Then you get a paged box in the document.
# [14:54] <Bert> Håkon: I do't think authors want to style the prev/next buttons.
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# [14:54] <Bert> Håkone: we had that discussion with controsl for video in HTML5.
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# [14:55] <Bert> Håkon: We will get requests from designers to style them.
# [14:55] <Bert> Steve: So make that possible.
# [14:55] <Bert> Håkon: Will need DOM, etc.
# [14:55] <Bert> Peter: Can be in some later, independent module.
# [14:56] <Bert> Håkone: Let's try to design it: what are the pseudo-elements called?
# [14:56] <Bert> Bert: How do you knwo there are two?
# [14:57] <Bert> Steve: I would want them in the scrollbar, not in the page.
# [14:57] <Bert> Peter: Also things like "jump 50 pages." We can designe generic mechanism, but shouldn't be exclusive.
# [14:57] <Bert> Alex: I have a proposal.
# [14:58] <Bert> Alex: Current definition of 'overflow: scroll' is very reasnable.
# [14:58] <Bert> Alex: We can make it scroll the right amount. UI mechanism can be buitl-in.
# [14:59] <Bert> Alex: You can bind it to DOM if you want.
# [14:59] <Bert> Alex: We know the box fits in the container. There are Javascript calls for scrollwidth/offset already.
# [14:59] <Bert> Alex: It's not trivial math, but not difficult.
# [15:00] <Bert> Alex: It would scroll by one page sideways.
# [15:00] <Bert> Håkon: Where is the backgroundon on an overflowing elt?
# [15:01] <Bert> Håkon: There is currently no bg behind the overflow.
# [15:01] <Bert> Peter: Set bg and overflow on two different elts.
# [15:01] <Bert> Alex: Allow UA to look at 'overflow: paginate' and either do scrollbar or something better, if it can.
# [15:02] <Bert> Steve: If you implement 'overflow-mode; you get a better behavior, but it works without.
# [15:02] <Bert> Steve: But user probably can't tell whether I'm using pagination or not in a page.
# [15:03] <Bert> Steve: If pages stack vertical or horizontal doesn't matter, you always jump by one page anyway.
# [15:03] <Bert> Alex: 'Overflow-x: scroll' will give horiz. scrolling by column.
# [15:03] <Bert> Alex: Interestign question is what happens for 'overflow-y'.
# [15:04] <Bert> Alex: All values are going to make sense.
# [15:04] <Bert> Fantasai: If I set diff. values for 'overflow' should not make difference for conceptual model of the layou.
# [15:05] <Bert> Alex: Yes, columns are always laid out the same.
# [15:06] <Bert> Fantasai: 'overflow-mode: paginate' would give paginated, Now imagine a background. The effect will be different based on layout.
# [15:06] <Bert> David: If you want paged, why would you want a different background?
# [15:07] <Bert> Fantasai is drawing: many columns side by side with three of them in viewport.
# [15:08] <Bert> Fantasai: If I paginate that, the next three columns go below the viewport.
# [15:08] <Bert> Fantasai: Without a background, it wouldn't make a difference: seeing the ast 3 or the 2nd three columns is the same.
# [15:09] <Bert> David: Aren't you confusing bg on elt that creates the columns and bg on the columns themselves.
# [15:09] <Bert> David: That viewport is the elt and it has its bg.
# [15:10] <Bert> Peter: So printing to a printer should effective switch to 'oveflowmode: paginate'?
# [15:10] <Bert> Steve: Maybe some issues with margins then?
# [15:10] <Bert> Steve: We ought to take 'paginate' bahavior from behavior in printed media. Not maybe exactly the same, but quite similar.
# [15:11] <dbaron> s/bg on the columns themselves/bg on things inside the columns/
# [15:11] <Bert> Håkon: Should we add 'overflow-mode: paginate' to Marquee?
# [15:11] <Bert> Fantasai: Better a new module.
# [15:12] <Bert> Fantasai: Leave multicol as it is, add new module later.
# [15:13] <Bert> Alex: If you have just overflow like this, you can print it and see everything. If it adds columns on the right, you cannot see all of them.
# [15:13] <Bert> Alex: In vertical text, a horizontal scrollbar that acts to move you to the next page may be surprising.
# [15:14] <dbaron> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [15:15] <fantasai> Howcome: it seems the conclusion is we don't make a change to the multicol spec now
# [15:15] <fantasai> Alex: This is interesting behavior, if you left it in wd for another year... :)
# [15:17] <fantasai> Alex: you can make a prototype of the pagination behavior by setting overflow:hidden and using scrolling apis
# [15:18] <fantasai> ...
# [15:18] <fantasai> Alex: I can easily see pagination widget being scrollbar with additional widgets
# [15:18] <fantasai> Alex: evenin page-reading mode, having a visual indication of where you are in the document is also useful
# [15:19] <fantasai> Steve: one thing to look at is the way pdfs get handled
# [15:19] <fantasai> Alex: pagination-mode thumnails
# [15:20] <fantasai> Howcome: I think I'm happy with this. I'll try to resolve the other comments to progress the draft
# [15:21] <fantasai> Sylvain: what are offset-width/height DOM properties in multicol mode?
# [15:21] <fantasai> David: You have these problems with inline elements anyway
# [15:22] <fantasai> David: And there are better apis for getting this info
# [15:22] <Bert> Håkon (to Alex): Ar eyou implementing?
# [15:22] <Bert> Alex: We're going to.
# [15:22] <Bert> Håkon: We ought to, too.
# [15:23] <Bert> Fantasai: With a fixed 'height' you're going to gety overflow, on some side.
# [15:24] <Bert> Fantasai: With 'column-length' the height grows to whatever it needs.
# [15:24] <Bert> Håkon: Can use 'column-gap' also between the pages.
# [15:24] <Bert> Steve: No, they are diff. gaps.
# [15:24] <fantasai> or column-row-gap
# [15:24] <fantasai> column-group-gap?
# [15:25] <Bert> Steve: Column length seems to introduc a whole set of new prblems. General paginate seems a better solution.
# [15:25] <Bert> Peter: Can be in future version of multicol.
# [15:25] <Bert> Steve: Got an elt that is pagainated, inside a DIV with a border. Where is the border?
# [15:26] <Bert> Peter: Just like overflow: scroll, i.e., border goes on outside.
# [15:26] <Bert> Fantasai: border aroudn the div has nothing to with the overflow. Not influenced.
# [15:26] <Bert> Steve: Doesn't look to me like overflow, why doesn't it extend the parent?
# [15:27] <Bert> Håkon: We could consider it as something else as overflow. But we do currently consider scroll a part of overflow.
# [15:27] <Bert> Steve: Paging is just a way of layout, not overflow.
# [15:28] <Bert> Steve: If I specify size of page, then it is overflow. But if I have some other way to set height, like column-length, then it's not overflow.
# [15:28] <Bert> Peter: Right, that does not set the height of the elt, so is not overflow.
# [15:29] <Bert> Alex: I see advatage of using overflow for pagination. Then you avoid defining their interaction.
# [15:29] <Bert> s/advatagea/dvantage/
# [15:29] <Bert> s/advatage/advantage/
# [15:29] <Bert> Peter: to paginate assumes a constrained container.
# [15:30] <Bert> Steve: Pagination is content that doesn't fit on the page, but it's not overflow.
# [15:30] <Bert> Peter: In my old product, we made pagination as a form of overflow.
# [15:31] <Bert> Håkon: Why on overflow-mode, why not on overflow itself?
# [15:32] <Bert> Fantasai: You need overflow: hidden independently.
# [15:32] <Bert> Fantasai: The scrolling mode is independent from whether it overflows at all.
# [15:33] <Bert> Håkon: Actually, the name is 'overflow-style', not -mode.
# [15:33] <Bert> Håkon: values are currently marquee and others.
# [15:33] <Bert> Håkon: Seems not the right comapny for 'paginate'
# [15:34] <Bert> BREAK
# [15:37] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.11.124) (Ping timeout)
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# [16:20] <jdaggett_> ScribeNick: jdaggett
# [16:21] <jdaggett_> hakon: still on multi-column
# [16:21] <plinss_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007JulSep/0177.html
# [16:23] <jdaggett_> elika draws a pretty picture
# [16:23] * Joins: SteveZ (51fd0c53@67.207.141.120)
# [16:24] <jdaggett_> vertical document with horiz block
# [16:24] <jdaggett_> horiz block has no constraint b/c auto
# [16:25] <jdaggett_> what happens when set max-context from box module on horiz block
# [16:26] <jdaggett_> hakon: whether multi-column or not, width doesn't change
# [16:27] <jdaggett_> steve: is column-width inherited?
# [16:27] <jdaggett_> hakon: no
# [16:27] <jdaggett_> steve: i'm confused
# [16:28] <jdaggett_> discussion of what happens to multi-column in rotated text
# [16:29] <jdaggett_> steve: issue is if you do a 90deg rotation
# [16:30] <jdaggett_> steve: no longer have a fixed width
# [16:30] <jdaggett_> steve: if window height becomes the constraint
# [16:30] <jdaggett_> elika: pagination also an issue
# [16:30] <jdaggett_> steve: that doesn't depend on columns
# [16:31] <jdaggett_> alex and elika discussing this
# [16:32] <jdaggett_> when does content get pushed to another page
# [16:33] <jdaggett_> hakon: spec doesn't specify where page break occurs
# [16:33] <jdaggett_> alex: lots of other pagination issues other than this
# [16:33] * CWilso thinks for the sake of those not in the room, all art should be required to be drawn in ASCII art in IRC. :)
# [16:34] * jdaggett_ likes this idea...
# [16:34] * CWilso well you're scribing... :)
# [16:34] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
# [16:34] * jdaggett_ sorry, too much dessert at lunch...
# [16:35] * glazou agrees but notes it's an implementation issue : my IRC should have a drawing tool included and a builtin converter to ascii art
# [16:35] <jdaggett_> more discussion of page breaking in multi-column veritcal text
# [16:36] * glazou could shout "developers, developers, developers!!!" :)
# [16:36] * CWilso it doesn't work as well if you don't dance around the room and sweat a lot...
# [16:36] <jdaggett_> steve: page breaks are allowed on column boundaries but shouldn't occur between columns
# [16:37] <jdaggett_> hakon: we don't define a lot of those cases
# [16:38] <jdaggett_> alex: i'm really uncomfortable with spiltting columns across pages
# [16:38] <jdaggett_> alex describes image page breaking behavior
# [16:39] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0112.html
# [16:39] <jdaggett_> hakon: unsure what to put into draft
# [16:40] <jdaggett_> steve: call out there is an issue with vertical text
# [16:40] <jdaggett_> steve thinking while talking
# [16:41] <jdaggett_> elika: if gap between pages is parallel to column, don't break in middle of column
# [16:41] <jdaggett_> elika: don't break individual lines of content
# [16:41] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.26.88)
# [16:42] <jdaggett_> discussion of where this belongs
# [16:42] <jdaggett_> hakon: we should rely on generic rules
# [16:42] <jdaggett_> elika: rules already in css 2.1
# [16:43] <jdaggett_> dbaron: says about both directions?
# [16:43] <fantasai> elika: don't break line boxes
# [16:44] <jdaggett_> searching through section 13.3.3 of css 2.1
# [16:44] <jdaggett_> under "allowed page breaks"
# [16:44] <jdaggett_> elika: other question is can you alter column widths?
# [16:44] <jdaggett_> hakon: are we happy happy happy?
# [16:46] <jdaggett_> discussion of which rules apply when
# [16:47] <jdaggett_> alex: available height not being a condenser
# [16:47] <jdaggett_> steve: is there a min column width
# [16:47] <jdaggett_> more pretty pictures from elika
# [16:48] <jdaggett_> steve: do we shrink column widths
# [16:48] <jdaggett_> ?
# [16:48] <jdaggett_> elika: the rules that handle increased column-width based on containing block
# [16:49] <jdaggett_> hakon: pseudo-algorithm addresses this case
# [16:49] <jdaggett_> hakon: with the available width
# [16:49] <jdaggett_> section 4.4 of multi col spec
# [16:50] <fantasai> might need to define available width to also consider available width on the page when paginating in that direction
# [16:51] <jdaggett_> hakon: so this solves the issue?
# [16:51] <jdaggett_> hakon: next, border parts
# [16:51] <jdaggett_> generated content for paged media spec
# [16:51] <glazou> TOPIC is now border-length and friends
# [16:52] <jdaggett_> hakon explains example XXXV
# [16:53] <jdaggett_> bert makes a very funny face
# [16:53] <jdaggett_> hakon: this is very very cool
# [16:53] <jdaggett_> hakon: needed for footnotes
# [16:53] <jdaggett_> hakon: very intuitive
# [16:54] <jdaggett_> hakon: way to define dash above footnotes
# [16:54] <jdaggett_> alex mentions alternatives
# [16:54] <jdaggett_> dbaron: the on-off distinction doesn't work
# [16:55] <jdaggett_> general unhappiness to which hakon responds "it's very, very easy"
# [16:55] <jdaggett_> hakon: auto means stretch to the available space
# [16:55] <jdaggett_> hakon: could also use flex unit
# [16:55] <jdaggett_> elika drawing pictures again in the corner
# [16:56] * jdaggett_ not very pretty ones...
# [16:56] <jdaggett_> dbaron thinks about other options
# [16:57] <jdaggett_> steve: the on-off stuff has been used in graphics for dashed line
# [16:57] <jdaggett_> steve: propose a specific footnote thingy
# [16:58] <jdaggett_> footnote separator
# [16:58] <jdaggett_> steve: leaders might also use on-off things
# [16:59] <jdaggett_> glazou: with css animation we can do crazy stuff
# [16:59] <jdaggett_> bert: footnotes that move around the page!
# [16:59] <jdaggett_> peter: moving borders are common
# [17:00] <glazou> CSS Animations + howcome's border-parts = rotating border parts !!!
# [17:00] <fantasai> I propose border-length: <length>{1,2} && [ center | left | right | corners ]?
# [17:00] <jdaggett_> steve: how about a pattern
# [17:00] <jdaggett_> peter: we had similar things with grids
# [17:00] <fantasai> border-length: 3em left;
# [17:01] <jdaggett_> glazou: elika's proposal is less inuitive
# [17:01] <fantasai> border-segment: 3em left;
# [17:01] <fantasai> border-top: solid red 2px;
# [17:02] <alexmog> .footnotes:before { display:block; height:0; width:3em; border-top:solid black 1px; }
# [17:02] <jdaggett_> glazou: how to specify border patterns
# [17:03] <jdaggett_> steve: might also want just borders on two corners
# [17:03] <jdaggett_> steve: can do this with script...
# [17:03] <jdaggett_> hakon: this is about geometry not content
# [17:03] <jdaggett_> alex thinks this is about content
# [17:03] <jdaggett_> generated content
# [17:04] <jdaggett_> alex: way more interesting generated content in css3
# [17:04] <jdaggett_> hakon concerned about how to do footnotes
# [17:04] <jdaggett_> steve: borders vs. separators
# [17:05] <jdaggett_> elika: this format is just weird
# [17:06] <jdaggett_> hakon: it's trivial
# [17:06] <fantasai> elika: I want a 50% border across the top and bottom of my blockquote
# [17:06] <jdaggett_> elika: as a web designer where would i get the idea that i could do this
# [17:06] <jdaggett_> hakon: this is a mask
# [17:07] <jdaggett_> dbaron: how does it interact with border-image?
# [17:07] <jdaggett_> hakon: it's just a mask
# [17:07] <fantasai> elika: you want to make me write border-parts-top: 0 auto 50% auto; ?
# [17:08] <jdaggett_> steve: can there be a repeat with this?
# [17:08] <jdaggett_> hakon: some folks on the list wanted dashes
# [17:09] <jdaggett_> hakon and steve discussing patterns
# [17:10] <jdaggett_> something like
# [17:10] * glazou is developing a strong allergy to the projected syntax
# [17:10] * Bert wondering why we dont go to immediately to 'border: 100 100 L 300 100 L 200 300 z' (cf. SVG)
# [17:10] <jdaggett_> border-parts: pattern(10px 20px auto, repeat)
# [17:11] <jdaggett_> jdaggett: what does svg use for pattern syntax?
# [17:12] <jdaggett_> peter: border-parts: 10px repeat(10px 20px) 20px;
# [17:12] <jdaggett_> elika: this is all ridiculous
# [17:12] <jdaggett_> peter: equivalent to how to specify grid lines
# [17:13] * Bert : or we could use Metafont: pickup widepen; draw z1..z2--z3;
# [17:14] * jdaggett_ hmm how would postscript do this
# [17:14] <fantasai> elika: I'm happy with that syntax if that's what you want to do, but I think this is all ridiculous
# [17:14] <jdaggett_> alex: is there reasonable consensus that this is insane?
# [17:15] <jdaggett_> hakon: this is simple euclidaen geometry
# [17:15] <jdaggett_> hakon: some people have suggested flex units
# [17:16] <jdaggett_> hakon: some people might be confused by the use of auto
# [17:16] <jdaggett_> checking values and units spec
# [17:17] <jdaggett_> hakon looking at gd unit
# [17:17] <jdaggett_> hakon: we should add fr
# [17:17] <jdaggett_> steve: yuk
# [17:17] <jdaggett_> hakon: there's many worse things in css
# [17:18] <jdaggett_> alex: what happens when fr is in repeat?
# [17:18] * CWilso jdagget: WWPSD?
# [17:19] * jdaggett_ heh
# [17:19] <jdaggett_> What Would Patrick Swayze Do
# [17:19] <CWilso> that too.
# [17:19] * glazou is too old, he used to say "what would McGyver do?"
# [17:20] <jdaggett_> discussion of what to do with repeat
# [17:21] <jdaggett_> peter: what happens if repeat has an odd number
# [17:21] <jdaggett_> elika: need a way to say "this many times the border width"
# [17:22] * MoZ propose a new unit "bw"
# [17:23] <jdaggett_> hakon: so i'll just write up this, shall i?
# [17:23] <jdaggett_> general snickers
# [17:23] <glazou> MoZ: make it "btw" and I buy it !-)
# [17:23] <jdaggett_> hakon: it's just an editors draft
# [17:23] <jdaggett_> buying and selling of issues takes place
# [17:23] <jdaggett_> hakon: i see an issue with repeat
# [17:24] * MoZ would have prefered "bmw"...
# [17:24] <glazou> lol
# [17:24] <jdaggett_> hakon: you don't know many how many times you repeat
# [17:24] <jdaggett_> bert remains very, very quiet
# [17:25] * glazou finds amazing that H�kon is proposing a feature that will eventually lead to web pages blinking more than with the blink tag :-)
# [17:25] * sylvaing cannot wait for border part collapsing
# [17:26] * Bert thinks fr should be defined as repeat(epsilon) where epsilon is a small value.
# [17:27] <glazou> sylvaing: rotfl
# [17:27] * Bert knows what designers want next: 'border-parts: repeat(random random)'
# [17:27] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.60.226) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [17:27] <jdaggett_> general discussion of how repeat works
# [17:28] * jdaggett_ sigh, notetaker has to pee...
# [17:29] <glazou> co-chairman too, let's do a convoy
# [17:29] * CWilso ooo, it's a group thing.
# [17:30] <glazou> CWilso: hey, we're speaking of individual properties here, not shorthands :-)
# [17:30] <jdaggett_> steve: difficulty with specifying dash-dot sequences
# [17:31] <jdaggett_> hakon: any units we should add?
# [17:31] <jdaggett_> hakon: bw?
# [17:31] <jdaggett_> alex: don't really need it
# [17:32] <jdaggett_> dbaron: don't have outline width, ow possible
# [17:32] <dbaron> I think you can stop minuting at this point... :-)
# [17:33] <jdaggett_> peter: issue beaten to death
# [17:33] <jdaggett_> alex: barcodes with this...
# [17:35] <jdaggett_> hakon: grammar question
# [17:36] <jdaggett_> calc(border-width-1em)
# [17:36] <jdaggett_> hows does this parse
# [17:36] <jdaggett_> dbaron: one ident token
# [17:37] * Quits: CWilso (cwilso@81.253.12.219) (Ping timeout)
# [17:37] <jdaggett_> discussion of parsing of calc
# [17:37] <jdaggett_> bert: insert spaces
# [17:37] <jdaggett_> hakon: should we say something about this in values and units
# [17:38] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
# [17:38] <dbaron> (discussion about :nth-child() argument syntax)
# [17:39] <dbaron> Peter: We decided the syntax for the argument there yesterday; it looks a lot like an expression.
# [17:39] * fantasai thought we resolved that yesterday
# [17:39] <dbaron> Peter: At some point we'll need expression parsing rules, which aren't compatible with general CSS parsing rules.
# [17:39] <dbaron> Steve: Which means the tokenizer is in trouble.
# [17:39] * Quits: anthony__ (chatzilla@81.253.9.145) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417])
# [17:39] <dbaron> Peter: "1px-7"
# [17:39] <dbaron> Bert: You have to put spaces. That's normal.
# [17:39] <dbaron> Bert: You can't say background-position: 10px7px
# [17:40] <dbaron> (some examples that went by too fast)
# [17:40] <dbaron> (Haakon shows the grammar for calc() in the css3-values draft)
# [17:41] <dbaron> Peter: You can have "7px + -4px"
# [17:41] <dbaron> Haakon: So these spaces here are significant?
# [17:41] <dbaron> Bert: Some of them are.
# [17:42] <dbaron> Peter: Can you nest calc()?
# [17:42] <dbaron> Bert: no
# [17:42] <dbaron> Bert: Seems kind of pointless.
# [17:42] <dbaron> Peter: It's unintuitive to a user to require spaces around - but not around / or *.
# [17:43] <fantasai> Elika: It does match the order of operations :)
# [17:44] <dbaron> (Ben Millard enters, discussion changes to ARIA meeting.)
# [17:44] * Joins: anthony (chatzilla@203.12.172.254)
# [17:45] <dbaron> Peter: Should require space around all arithmetic operators.
# [17:46] <dbaron> David: Maybe just + and -?
# [17:46] <dbaron> Peter: No, all
# [17:46] <dbaron> David: ok
# [17:46] <glazou> hum hum http://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/10/20/1352205.shtml
# [17:46] <dbaron> Elika: Does that require changing the tokenization?
# [17:46] <dbaron> Various: no
# [17:46] <dbaron> Peter: add parens to change order of ops?
# [17:46] <dbaron> Various: They're already there.
# [17:47] <dbaron> David: Any additional requirement for spaces around paretheses?
# [17:47] <dbaron> Peter: no
# [17:47] <dbaron> Elika: Do we want % rather than mod now that we have spaces?
# [17:48] <dbaron> Peter: No, % sign is too geeky.
# [17:48] <dbaron> Haakon: no
# [17:48] * Joins: Chris (CWilso@81.253.35.206)
# [17:48] * Chris glazou: http://flickr.com/photos/cwilso/2957938061/
# [17:48] <glazou> looking
# [17:48] <glazou> thx
# [17:49] <dbaron> Topic: GCPM
# [17:49] <fantasai> RESOLVED: spaces around arithmetic operators in calc(), not required /by/ parentheses, ut may be required outside parens due to operators)
# [17:49] <dbaron> Haakon: We're likely to have 2 implementations of a fair number of these items. This spec is a clearinghouse for many things that possibly could go elsewhere.
# [17:50] <dbaron> Haakon: But it seems reasonable to have an advanced printing features draft. These seem likely to be implemented mainly by batch processors.
# [17:50] <dbaron> Haakon: How do people feel about 60% of this spec going forward under this name?
# [17:50] <dbaron> Alex: Can it be separated into pieces that can be implemented separately?
# [17:50] <dbaron> Haakon: The border thing could go in the border module.
# [17:50] <dbaron> Elika: No standard for CMYK.
# [17:51] <dbaron> Elika: I think we want new counter styles in the lists module.
# [17:51] <dbaron> Elika: That means lists module requires an owner.
# [17:51] * Quits: Chris (CWilso@81.253.35.206) (Ping timeout)
# [17:51] <dbaron> Haakon: I would actually remove a lot of the lists.
# [17:51] * Quits: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@81.253.7.104) (Quit: jdaggett_)
# [17:51] <dbaron> Haakon: And then I would define them using the symbols() syntax.
# [17:52] <dbaron> Elika: A lot of the numbering styles don't follow that pattern.
# [17:52] <dbaron> Haakon: You're putting overhead on the implementations if you have all those lists.
# [17:53] <dbaron> Alex: I also have some concern about footnotes. This definition is very general; it's not necessarily how we'll do it if we eventually implement footnotes.
# [17:53] <dbaron> Alex: Maybe footnotes could be a separate spec?
# [17:53] <dbaron> Haakon: That has overhead.
# [17:54] <dbaron> Haakon: I added this section about "Footnote magic"
# [17:54] <dbaron> Bert: Leaders and hyphenation don't belong here.
# [17:54] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
# [17:55] <dbaron> Hakon: Generated content?
# [17:55] <glazou> hey melinda
# [17:55] <dbaron> Alex: Can it become paged media level 4?
# [17:55] <dbaron> Elika: Modules can progress independently.
# [17:55] <melinda> Hey, Daniel.
# [17:56] <dbaron> (discussion of spec progress, and lack thereof)
# [17:57] <fantasai> hey Melinda, we discussed multicol today, didn't get to paged media. on gcpm right now
# [17:57] <dbaron> Peter: I think we're done for the day.
# [17:57] <melinda> k, thx
# [17:57] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.26.88) (Ping timeout)
# [17:58] * fantasai wonders if we can resolve the background shorthand issue and publish CSS3 Backgrounds and Borders as Last Call
# [17:58] <dbaron> Haakon: TOCs, and the 'prototype*' properties
# [17:59] <dbaron> Haakon: Generate content and insert into glossary, TOC, ...
# [17:59] <dbaron> Daniel: S-T-T-What?
# [17:59] <dbaron> Bert: What locale for sorting?
# [18:00] <dbaron> Haakon: I'm looking for somebody to do an implementation in perl or something to see if it works.
# [18:00] <dbaron> Haakon: This is among the parts I'd chop off if we were to progress?
# [18:00] <dbaron> Ben Millard: I've studied how authors mark up TOCs in HTML currently... some use OL, some use UL, some use P/BR with  s, etc. Authors aren't clear on markup, so could be positive feeling on how to do from CSS.
# [18:01] <glazou> STTS RULEZ !!!!!
# [18:01] <dbaron> Elika: OL is the right markup, styling not good enough.
# [18:01] <dbaron> David: We need ::marker
# [18:01] <dbaron> (Hixie enters.)
# [18:02] <dbaron> Haakon: Can you fix the z-index issue?
# [18:02] * Bert wonders why HTML5 doesn't add <toc><li>...</toc> elements...
# [18:02] <dbaron> Peter: OK, z-index first thing tomorrow, then.
# [18:02] <dbaron> Haakon: I have another issue about the page counter.
# [18:03] <glazou> Bert: hey, that would be a too simple and intuitive solution :-)
# [18:05] <dbaron> David: We also need counters work for the HTML5 header algorithm, counter-set that doesn't create a new scope might solve it.
# [18:05] <dbaron> Elika: We can probably do an LC of backgrounds & borders this year.
# [18:05] <glazou> ======= adjourn ===========
# [18:05] * Quits: plinss_ (plinss@81.253.47.138) (Quit: plinss_)
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# Session Close: Tue Oct 21 00:00:00 2008

The end :)