/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-11-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 05 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:36] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
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  31. # [17:44] * Joins: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19)
  32. # [17:44] <glazou> hello
  33. # [17:49] <glazou> plinss,plinss_: yt?
  34. # [17:49] <plinss> yes
  35. # [17:50] <glazou> hi
  36. # [17:50] <plinss> hello
  37. # [17:53] * Parts: giorgi (opera@213.236.208.22)
  38. # [17:54] <glazou> jdaggett: hi
  39. # [18:04] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  40. # [18:04] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  41. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/05-css-irc
  42. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  43. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, glazou, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
  44. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  45. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.253.250.aaaa, +95089aabb
  46. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, +95089aabb is me
  47. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +00aacc
  48. # [18:05] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  49. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.760.741.aadd
  50. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, +1.760.741.aadd is plinss
  51. # [18:06] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  52. # [18:07] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  53. # [18:07] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  54. # [18:07] * Joins: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.208.27)
  55. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.425.533.aaee
  56. # [18:08] <dbaron> oy, Zakim is being mean again
  57. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, +1.425.533.aaee is saloni
  58. # [18:08] <Zakim> +saloni; got it
  59. # [18:08] <dbaron> (giving me extra ringing rather than the prompt for a passcode)
  60. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  61. # [18:08] * glazou likes when dbaron starts a sentence with yiddish "oy" :-)
  62. # [18:09] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  63. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  64. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aaff
  65. # [18:09] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.102.131)
  66. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  67. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, aaff is jason_cranfordtea
  68. # [18:10] <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea; got it
  69. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aagg
  70. # [18:11] <dbaron> Zakim, aagg is howcome
  71. # [18:11] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  72. # [18:12] * Joins: giorgi (giorgic@84.215.42.108)
  73. # [18:12] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Connection reset by peer)
  74. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  75. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.253.250.aaaa, glazou, +00aacc, plinss, saloni, [Mozilla], jason_cranfordtea, Melinda_Grant, howcome
  76. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Bert
  77. # [18:13] * Joins: SaloniR (836b0066@128.30.52.43)
  78. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, aaaa is Jeff_Wilson
  79. # [18:13] <Zakim> +Jeff_Wilson; got it
  80. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, aaaa is Jeff_Willson
  81. # [18:13] <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
  82. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aahh
  83. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P36
  84. # [18:13] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.24.220)
  85. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, Jeff_Wilson is Jeff_Willson
  86. # [18:13] <Zakim> +Jeff_Willson; got it
  87. # [18:13] <giorgi> Zakim, ??P36 is me
  88. # [18:13] <Zakim> +giorgi; got it
  89. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, aahh is sylvaing
  90. # [18:13] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  91. # [18:14] <sylvaing> ScribeNick: sylvaing
  92. # [18:14] <sylvaing> (what's the syntax again)
  93. # [18:14] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  94. # [18:14] <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeff_Willson, glazou, +00aacc, plinss, saloni, [Mozilla], jason_cranfordtea, Melinda_Grant, howcome, Bert, sylvaing, giorgi
  95. # [18:14] <dbaron> sylvaing, that's correct
  96. # [18:14] <sylvaing> (thanks)
  97. # [18:14] <sylvaing> agenda: +f2f dates
  98. # [18:15] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Oct/0295.html
  99. # [18:15] * dbaron wonders if fantasai is aacc
  100. # [18:15] <sylvaing> first item : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Oct/0295.html
  101. # [18:16] <sylvaing> elika: spec does not do a good job defined :enabled and :disabled
  102. # [18:17] <sylvaing> elika: need to change spec to make definition more vague/less dependent on user interaction
  103. # [18:17] <sylvaing> if we make it more vague, how do we converge on interop ?
  104. # [18:18] <fantasai> "— which the user can select or activate in some fashion (e.g. clicking on a button with a mouse)"
  105. # [18:18] <fantasai> I would suggest removing that
  106. # [18:19] <sylvaing> glazou: not sure this solves the issue
  107. # [18:19] <dbaron> How about something more like "represents an element whose element type can be enabled by the user but cannot currently be activated by the user due to the semantics of the markup"?
  108. # [18:21] * Joins: JeffW (824c2017@67.207.141.120)
  109. # [18:22] <fantasai> s/whose element type/
  110. # [18:22] <fantasai> s/whose element type//
  111. # [18:22] <sylvaing> dbaron: definition of enabled/disabled should not depend on CSS but semantics of the markup and object model
  112. # [18:23] <dbaron> not sure if "element type" is the right thing, but it is precise
  113. # [18:23] <sylvaing> fantasai: we already have implementations that match type=hidden.
  114. # [18:23] <glazou> what happens for :enabled { display: none } ?
  115. # [18:24] <sylvaing> fantasai: html5 should define enabled/disabled
  116. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: I personally think type=hidden should be able to accept :enabled/:disabled because that distinction exists
  117. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: but that should be left up to HTML5, we should not define that here
  118. # [18:24] <sylvaing> plinss: there was discussion to use CSS to determine whether something was editable i.e. its state
  119. # [18:25] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Oct/0161.html is relevant here
  120. # [18:25] <Hixie> I prefer the first mechanism proposed
  121. # [18:25] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  122. # [18:26] <sylvaing> ACTION: write rewording proposal for section CSS3 Selectors 6.6.4
  123. # [18:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  124. # [18:26] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - write
  125. # [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 1
  126. # [18:26] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Connection reset by peer)
  127. # [18:26] <sylvaing> ACTION fantasai: write rewording proposal for section CSS3 Selectors 6.6.4
  128. # [18:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  129. # [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 2
  130. # [18:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-116 - Write rewording proposal for section CSS3 Selectors 6.6.4 [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-11-12].
  131. # [18:26] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Oct/0268.html
  132. # [18:27] <Zakim> -plinss
  133. # [18:27] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  134. # [18:27] <sylvaing> dbaron: two issues 1) 3 proposals for ::selection 2) have not looked at existing impls and tests
  135. # [18:28] <glazou> regrets: innovima
  136. # [18:28] <glazou> regrets: innovimax
  137. # [18:28] <sylvaing> fantasai: unclear what Hixie's test assumes/expects
  138. # [18:28] <sylvaing> glazou: discussion postponed to next week
  139. # [18:29] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-84
  140. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: When I looked at Hixie's tests, it looked like he set properties on everything, so it was not possible to see how values inherited/cascaded through the tree
  141. # [18:29] <Zakim> +plinss
  142. # [18:29] <sylvaing> no objection
  143. # [18:30] <glazou> change accepted
  144. # [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: proposal accepted for issue 84
  145. # [18:31] <sylvaing> (sound went off on my side)
  146. # [18:32] <sylvaing> hakum wonders whether repeat() should be kept in GCPM border-part
  147. # [18:33] <glazou> sylvaing: did you get melinda's point ?
  148. # [18:33] <sylvaing> melinda: agree it will be hard to preserve
  149. # [18:33] * glazou thx
  150. # [18:33] <sylvaing> melinda: combinations can get very complex
  151. # [18:34] <sylvaing> melinda: should we ask designers ?
  152. # [18:34] <sylvaing> melinda: agree that border parts are generally useful
  153. # [18:35] <fantasai> discussion of what designers want
  154. # [18:36] <fantasai> jason: Control over spacing of dashes is a standard tool designers use
  155. # [18:36] <sylvaing> fantasai: feature set for 3 is good and should get locked down for impl.; new proposal for dotted/dashed lines can go in borders & backgrounds 4
  156. # [18:37] <sylvaing> glazou: bert sent email today about CSS21 publication plan
  157. # [18:37] <sylvaing> bert: SVG Tiny 1.2 depends on CSS2 since they need to depend on a REC
  158. # [18:37] <sylvaing> bert: people cannot use CSS21 for their specs
  159. # [18:38] <sylvaing> glazou: yes we do need to deliver this spec
  160. # [18:38] <sylvaing> bert: we give the appearance to move backwards; we could avoid publishing anything until we have a PR
  161. # [18:39] <sylvaing> fantasai: we said we'd do that in Cambridge
  162. # [18:40] <sylvaing> fantasai: we can't go to PR without the test suite
  163. # [18:40] <sylvaing> fantasai: and implementations that pass
  164. # [18:40] <sylvaing> bert: should we give up on implementations ?
  165. # [18:40] <sylvaing> fantasai: conflicts with the process document
  166. # [18:41] <sylvaing> melinda: should we see where we are wrt test coverage and estimate time left
  167. # [18:42] <sylvaing> plinss: we have not spent enough time on the test suite yet to decide today whether we should change the exit criteria to fasttrack REC
  168. # [18:42] <sylvaing> bert: we seem to never get out of issues
  169. # [18:43] <sylvaing> fantasai: we'll never be out of them; but once in REC we address them in errata
  170. # [18:44] <sylvaing> bert: we should not wait for implementations to complete the spec
  171. # [18:44] <sylvaing> plinss: we're waiting for the test suite, without which we don't know whether we have implementations
  172. # [18:44] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
  173. # [18:44] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (26%), Bert (76%)
  174. # [18:45] <sylvaing> bert: do we have estimates for how long it will take to complete the test suite and have test reports ?
  175. # [18:46] <sylvaing> melinda mentions msft's coming test suite
  176. # [18:46] <sylvaing> fantasai: once we have their test suite, reviewing them is the next item
  177. # [18:47] <sylvaing> dbaron: are we designing a system to allow us to review tests or are we going to do something simpler
  178. # [18:47] <sylvaing> fantasai: right now, simple system. wiki and mailing list
  179. # [18:47] <sylvaing> dbaron: is there a wiki linking to tests needing review
  180. # [18:48] <sylvaing> dbaron: in one place
  181. # [18:48] <sylvaing> melinda: agree.
  182. # [18:49] <sylvaing> dbaron: we should not gate progress on building a complex review system
  183. # [18:50] <sylvaing> dbaron: I just want a list of what needs to be done.
  184. # [18:50] <sylvaing> dbaron: otherwise it is hard to get involved and help
  185. # [18:51] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/pending-review
  186. # [18:53] <sylvaing> fantasai: record of which tests have been reviewed is not centralized
  187. # [18:54] <sylvaing> glazou: should we move tests that need work, that have been reviewed, pending review etc be in different places in the repository ?
  188. # [18:55] <sylvaing> fantasai: will look for a solution that does not involve moving things around all the time since moving files can lose versioning history if you don't do it right
  189. # [18:55] <sylvaing> plinss: individual contributors should not do this, only reviewers
  190. # [18:55] <sylvaing> glazou: expose a web frontend to do this so the backend does it right in subversion
  191. # [18:56] <sylvaing> glazou: moving on to Tokyo f2f meeting
  192. # [18:56] <sylvaing> plinss: can we lock dates within the first two weeks of march
  193. # [19:00] <sylvaing> fantasai: is february a possibility ?
  194. # [19:01] <sylvaing> arguing dates around sxsw
  195. # [19:05] <sylvaing> glazou: we stick to the first week of March; 4, 5 and 6
  196. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  197. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  198. # [19:05] <Zakim> -plinss
  199. # [19:05] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  200. # [19:05] <Zakim> -giorgi
  201. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Jeff_Willson
  202. # [19:06] <Zakim> -howcome
  203. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  204. # [19:06] <Zakim> - +00aacc
  205. # [19:06] <Zakim> -saloni
  206. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Bert
  207. # [19:06] * Quits: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.208.27) (Quit: jason_cranfordtea)
  208. # [19:06] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
  209. # [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  210. # [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.253.250.aaaa, +00aacc, glazou, plinss, saloni, [Mozilla], +1.703.265.aaff, Melinda_Grant, jason_cranfordtea, +47.21.65.aagg, howcome, Bert, +1.206.324.aahh,
  211. # [19:06] <Zakim> ... Jeff_Willson, giorgi, sylvaing
  212. # [19:06] * Quits: glazou (daniel@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  213. # [19:06] * Quits: JeffW (824c2017@67.207.141.120) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  214. # [19:08] * Quits: SaloniR (836b0066@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  215. # [19:15] * Parts: giorgi (giorgic@84.215.42.108)
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  217. # [20:53] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  218. # [20:53] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
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  221. # [22:03] * howcome foo
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  224. # Session Close: Thu Nov 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)