/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-11-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  38. # [18:02] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  39. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-css-irc
  40. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, this is style
  41. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  42. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaaa
  43. # [18:04] <Zakim> -plinss
  44. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
  45. # [18:04] <Zakim> - +1.408.398.aaaa
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  47. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aabb
  48. # [18:04] <Zakim> -plinss
  49. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
  50. # [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  51. # [18:05] * Zakim sees on the phone: plinss, +1.408.398.aabb
  52. # [18:05] * Joins: Molly (molly@70.176.234.187)
  53. # [18:05] <plinss> zakim, +1.408.398 is dsinger
  54. # [18:05] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  55. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +00aacc
  56. # [18:06] <Molly> hi, not on phone today, just IRC
  57. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  58. # [18:06] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  59. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Jonas_Sicking
  60. # [18:06] <Zakim> +saloni
  61. # [18:06] <Zakim> -saloni
  62. # [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  63. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not recognize a party named '[Mozilla]'
  64. # [18:07] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  65. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Bert
  66. # [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, Jonas_Sicking is David_Baron
  67. # [18:07] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  68. # [18:07] <Zakim> +saloni
  69. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P50
  70. # [18:07] <giorgi> Zakim, ??P50 is me
  71. # [18:08] <Zakim> +giorgi; got it
  72. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  73. # [18:09] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  74. # [18:10] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (5%), dsinger (4%), saloni (4%)
  75. # [18:11] <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea
  76. # [18:11] * Joins: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12)
  77. # [18:12] <plinss> zakim, +00aacc is fantasai
  78. # [18:12] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  79. # [18:13] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  80. # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  81. # [18:14] <dbaron> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  82. # [18:14] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  83. # [18:15] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  84. # [18:15] * Bert has to run after the call, prefers not to scribe today...
  85. # [18:16] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  86. # [18:16] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0109.html
  87. # [18:16] <fantasai> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008OctDec/0065.html
  88. # [18:16] <fantasai> Topic: Margin Collapsing
  89. # [18:17] <fantasai> Sylvain: At the F2F we discussed min-height and margin collapsing and how it creates discontinuities
  90. # [18:17] <fantasai> Sylvain: We left the max-height clause in there, which also creates discontinuities.
  91. # [18:17] <Zakim> + +47.21.64.aadd
  92. # [18:17] <fantasai> Peter: Did we get a resolution on whether we should adopt the partial collapsing?
  93. # [18:18] <fantasai> Sylvain: I don't think we did, but I also don't think we want to get into that now for 2.1
  94. # [18:18] <fantasai> Peter: Right. We should be consistent with min-height and max-height, though
  95. # [18:18] <fantasai> Sylvain: If we want to avoid discontinuities then we need to either drop both clauses or define partial collapsing
  96. # [18:19] <fantasai> Melinda: Is there a description of partial collapsing?
  97. # [18:19] <fantasai> Sylvain: See thread for Alex's proposal
  98. # [18:19] <fantasai> Peter: The issue here is that you have a parent and a child. Parent is now bigger than it needs to be due to min-height. Does parent and child margins collapse?
  99. # [18:20] <fantasai> Peter: The question is how to deal with the child's bottom margin being large enough to extend past the parent's bottom margin
  100. # [18:20] * Joins: SaloniR (43b68321@128.30.52.43)
  101. # [18:21] <fantasai> Peter: Can we at least agree that min-height and max-height should have the same behavior?
  102. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert: Yes, I agree with that. Also I like Alex's text in that second email
  103. # [18:22] <fantasai> Bert: Not the partial collapsing, I mean the other part
  104. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert: The part that makes min-height and max-height
  105. # [18:23] * Joins: glazou (daniel@86.64.199.187)
  106. # [18:23] <fantasai> David: I assume we're talking about positive margins. I agree min-height and max-height should behave the same
  107. # [18:23] * glazou is here only for ten minutes, between two meetings ; hi everyone
  108. # [18:23] <melinda> s/positive/negative
  109. # [18:23] <dbaron> No, I said I assume the case where there's a discontinuity for max-height is a negative margin case
  110. # [18:24] <dbaron> I'm ok with what we were discussing at the F2F, where margin collapsing is not changed by min/max-height even if they do change the size of the box.
  111. # [18:26] <fantasai> Peter: opinions on partial collapsing?
  112. # [18:27] <fantasai> Peter: Can we add it later?
  113. # [18:27] <fantasai> Bert, Elika: Don't think we can add it later.
  114. # [18:27] <fantasai> Bert: I don't mind adding it now /if/ it can be implemented quickly
  115. # [18:27] <fantasai> Alex: It didn't seem like any of the implementors were particularly excited about implementing partial collapsing.
  116. # [18:27] <fantasai> Alex: It's a really new concept, and I'm not sure there's a lot of benefit to adding that to the spec.
  117. # [18:28] <fantasai> Alex: We would do something like that if we have to, I'm not sure why.
  118. # [18:29] <fantasai> Alex: Are we getting to agreement that we can remove min-height and max-height from that paragraph and that would be the only change we would make?
  119. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: I think you might need to make some other changes.\
  120. # [18:30] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#min-max-widths
  121. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: There aren't any specific mentions of margin collapsing there, but there are rules for how they apply.
  122. # [18:31] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  123. # [18:32] <fantasai> "If the resulting width is smaller than 'min-width', the rules above are applied again, but this time using the value of 'min-width' as the computed value for 'width'. "
  124. # [18:32] <fantasai> s/width/height/
  125. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: Basically it needs to say that the new computed height does not affect margin collapsing.
  126. # [18:32] <fantasai> Melinda: I think this gets into the concern I was trying to raise.
  127. # [18:33] <fantasai> Melinda: We have an auto-height box which starts behaving like a fixed-size box, where we have overflow and margin collapsing issues
  128. # [18:34] <fantasai> Peter: max-height has to trigger overflow, the point is to constrain the height
  129. # [18:35] <fantasai> Peter: min-height won't trigger overflow because it'll be at least big enough for its contents.
  130. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: only the margins will spill out for min-height, and they don't trigger overflow
  131. # [18:36] <fantasai> ACTION: Alex propose min/max-height text for 10.7
  132. # [18:36] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  133. # [18:36] * RRSAgent records action 1
  134. # [18:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-117 - Propose min/max-height text for 10.7 [on Alex Mogilevsky - due 2008-11-19].
  135. # [18:36] <fantasai> Topic: word-spacing issue
  136. # [18:37] * glazou has to go, meeting pending
  137. # [18:37] * glazou bye people
  138. # [18:37] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-84
  139. # [18:37] * Quits: glazou (daniel@86.64.199.187) (Quit: /quit)
  140. # [18:37] * Molly waves bye
  141. # [18:37] * plinss waves bye to glazou
  142. # [18:37] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0082.html
  143. # [18:40] <fantasai> David: Why are we leaving things undefined?
  144. # [18:41] <fantasai> fantasai: there are other characters we aren't sure about, or others that we don't know about/haven't been added to Unicode yet
  145. # [18:41] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.105)
  146. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: This needs more research. Hopefully get some clarification for CSS3 Text as well.
  147. # [18:43] <fantasai> Sylvain: Our concern is CSS2.1 and testing conformance there
  148. # [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai: CSS3 Text is likely to add at least one or two characters to this list
  149. # [18:44] <Zakim> +dsinger.a
  150. # [18:44] <Zakim> -dsinger
  151. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: If people are uncomfortable with this being explicitly undefined, we could make it implicitly undefined but leave the "don't apply to these characters" sentence.
  152. # [18:45] <fantasai> David: I'm ok with the concept. How about reversing the order of the sentences.
  153. # [18:45] <fantasai> Sylvain, fantasai: ok
  154. # [18:46] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add proposed text for CSS2.1 Issue 84 with sentences reversed.
  155. # [18:47] <fantasai> Topic: @font-face and duplication
  156. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: Might want to wait for John Daggett
  157. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: Might want to wait for more feedback
  158. # [18:47] <fantasai> Howcome: I sent my comments in. I think we have agreement on the first issue. The other two are difficult
  159. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm interested in what Michael Day thinks.
  160. # [18:48] <dbaron> s/ thinks/'s use cases are/
  161. # [18:48] <fantasai> Howcome: I quoted from Prince's user style sheets. They use @font-face to implement generic font families
  162. # [18:48] <fantasai> Howcome: They list several src()s to make sure you get enough glyphs.
  163. # [18:49] <fantasai> Howcome: You could perhaps have another src descriptor that has the fallback behavior.
  164. # [18:49] <fantasai> Howcome: both behaviors are useful
  165. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: if we go with one option for 2 and one option for 3 then you get both
  166. # [18:50] <fantasai> Howcome: if you go for A -- taking the first font that you find -- how would you solve Michael's use case?
  167. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: You'd duplicate the rule with the same font family but a different src
  168. # [18:50] <fantasai> Howcome: Doesn't that conflict.. I guess that depends on 3
  169. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: If you choose 2 goes one way and 3 goes the other way
  170. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: Authors can do either, because they have 2 different mechanisms that do 2 different things.
  171. # [18:51] <fantasai> Howcome: I'm ok to hear from Apple on that, maybe if we poke them.
  172. # [18:51] <fantasai> dsinger: I'll pass the poke onto Mr. Hyatt
  173. # [18:51] <fantasai> Howcome: I don't think this is a contentious issue. If we can find a way to describe both use cases, which it seems like we can.
  174. # [18:52] <fantasai> Peter: So if you have multiple values in a single declaration you combine those in a fallback chain, and if you have multiple @font-face rules you overwrite each
  175. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: No, the other way around.
  176. # [18:53] <fantasai> fantasai: Peter's way seems more consistent
  177. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: But it wouldn't work well to combine with descriptors.
  178. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: For example the unicode-range descriptor.
  179. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: could be used to split up a font into multiple segments, you only download the one you need
  180. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: but an implementation that doesn't support it would download just the last one
  181. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: if you did it that way
  182. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: and would therefore only get a partial font
  183. # [18:55] <dbaron> s/combine with descriptors/combine with the addition of new descriptors over time/
  184. # [18:55] <fantasai> Peter: I'm a little concerned because I'm wondering if a designer would want a way to override an @font-face declaration
  185. # [18:55] <fantasai> dbaron: They could just use a different name
  186. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: also the last @font-face declaration wins
  187. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: other people have other opinions here
  188. # [18:57] <fantasai> Peter: I think John Daggett is mainly concerned to give designers both options
  189. # [18:57] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Issue 85
  190. # [18:57] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-85
  191. # [18:58] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0039.html
  192. # [18:59] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0078.html
  193. # [19:00] <fantasai> Proposal is to remove \r\n\f from escape token class
  194. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai explains how spec prose implies one thing, and escape token forbids it while being inconsistent between spaces and newlines
  195. # [19:05] <fantasai> Sylvain: what do other browsers do?
  196. # [19:06] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@66.78.202.167)
  197. # [19:06] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/att-0039/escape-newline-in-css-identifier.html
  198. # [19:07] <fantasai> Sylvain: I don't expect this to affect authors, but we should define something
  199. # [19:08] <fantasai> Sylvain: Can we agree that space and newline should be handled the same way?
  200. # [19:09] <fantasai> dbaron: It matters more to me which way they're handled than that they're consistent
  201. # [19:09] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm more concerned about consistency between strings and identifiers than between spaces and newlines
  202. # [19:10] <fantasai> Topic: Selectors API
  203. # [19:10] <fantasai> Peter: Reminder that we have been asked to make last call comments on the Selectors API
  204. # [19:10] <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
  205. # [19:10] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  206. # [19:10] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  207. # [19:10] <Zakim> -giorgi
  208. # [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  209. # [19:10] <Zakim> -fantasai
  210. # [19:10] <Zakim> -plinss
  211. # [19:10] <Zakim> -saloni
  212. # [19:10] * Quits: jason_cranfordtea (jason_cran@64.236.128.12) (Quit: jason_cranfordtea)
  213. # [19:11] <Zakim> - +47.21.64.aadd
  214. # [19:11] <Zakim> -dsinger.a
  215. # [19:11] * Quits: Molly (molly@70.176.234.187) (Quit: Molly)
  216. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Bert
  217. # [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  218. # [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.408.398.aabb, dsinger, [Mozilla], saloni, Bert, David_Baron, giorgi, Melinda_Grant, jason_cranfordtea, fantasai, sylvaing, +47.21.64.aadd
  219. # [19:11] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  220. # [19:12] * Quits: SaloniR (43b68321@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
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  225. # [20:32] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  227. # [20:53] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Connection reset by peer)
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  231. # Session Close: Thu Nov 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)