/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-11-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 26 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [03:58] * Joins: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.104.177)
  4. # [03:58] * Parts: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.104.177)
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  15. # [17:46] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  16. # [17:46] <glazou> hello
  17. # [17:46] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  18. # [17:46] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  19. # [17:46] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-css-irc
  20. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  21. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
  22. # [18:03] * glazou ROFLS @ http://168.144.212.54/
  23. # [18:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  24. # [18:04] <Zakim> +dsinger
  25. # [18:04] * Joins: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.104.177)
  26. # [18:04] <glazou> hi dave
  27. # [18:05] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  28. # [18:05] <Zakim> +glazou
  29. # [18:05] <Zakim> -glazou
  30. # [18:05] <Zakim> +glazou
  31. # [18:05] <Dsinger> I am on the iPhone and so muted. I think l
  32. # [18:05] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  33. # [18:05] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  34. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, glazou, sylvaing
  35. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  36. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.908.580.aaaa
  37. # [18:06] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 3 (4%), glazou (42%), +1.908.580.aaaa (53%)
  38. # [18:06] <fantasai> Zakim, +1.908 is fantasai
  39. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  40. # [18:06] <Dsinger> I think I will have to leave irc to unmite
  41. # [18:06] <glazou> Dsinger: ok
  42. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  43. # [18:06] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  44. # [18:06] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  45. # [18:07] <Zakim> +saloni
  46. # [18:07] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@82.230.92.154)
  47. # [18:07] <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code ?
  48. # [18:07] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
  49. # [18:07] <MoZ> Zakim, who is here ?
  50. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, glazou, sylvaing, fantasai, [Mozilla], saloni
  51. # [18:07] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  52. # [18:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see MoZ, dbaron, Dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Lachy, fantasai, krijnh, trackbot, Bert, Hixie, plinss
  53. # [18:08] <Dsinger> I am muted because I am on a bus to 9:20ish
  54. # [18:08] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.24.220)
  55. # [18:08] <Dsinger> Colloquy
  56. # [18:08] <MoZ> Zakim, this will be css
  57. # [18:08] <Zakim> ok, MoZ, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
  58. # [18:09] <Dsinger> Ah
  59. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
  60. # [18:09] <Zakim> +MoZ
  61. # [18:09] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  62. # [18:09] * Joins: SaloniR (43b68321@128.30.52.43)
  63. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  64. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  65. # [18:11] <Dsinger> I am using rooms on the iPhone for the first time today...
  66. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P30
  67. # [18:11] <dbaron> Zakim, [Microsoft] has Arron
  68. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Arron; got it
  69. # [18:11] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  70. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P30 might be Alex
  71. # [18:12] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P30 might be Alex', dbaron
  72. # [18:12] <sylvaing> ScribeNick:sylvaing
  73. # [18:13] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0298.html
  74. # [18:13] * dbaron did not have a chance to read it
  75. # [18:15] <sylvaing> saloni explains how list marker positioning implementations conflict with spec
  76. # [18:16] <sylvaing> dbaron: we are close to interoperable behavior
  77. # [18:16] <sylvaing> dbaron, fantasai: but this is not a simple issue
  78. # [18:17] <sylvaing> fantasai: we could say that in the presence of floats, the position of the marker is undefined
  79. # [18:17] <sylvaing> dbaron: it's the combination of both float and text-align
  80. # [18:17] <sylvaing> fantasai suggests getting feedback from web designer
  81. # [18:17] <fantasai> for floats
  82. # [18:18] <fantasai> "The position of the list-item marker in the presence of floats is undefined in CSS2.1."
  83. # [18:18] <sylvaing> fantasai: position of the marker around floats could be undefined in 2.1
  84. # [18:18] <fantasai> I think we should ask web designers for feedback on the text-align issue
  85. # [18:19] <fantasai> We might get a straight answer, in which case we can define that
  86. # [18:19] * Quits: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.104.177) (Quit: Dsinger)
  87. # [18:19] <sylvaing> fantasai: floats is the more complex case
  88. # [18:19] <sylvaing> glazou: let's take a week to study this and get back to it next week.
  89. # [18:19] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Feb/0116.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Feb/0118.html were my comments on the css3 proposals
  90. # [18:20] <fantasai> ACTION: glazou Ask web-designers how list-item markers should behave in the presence of text-align != start
  91. # [18:20] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  92. # [18:20] * RRSAgent records action 1
  93. # [18:20] <trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - Ask web-designers how list-item markers should behave in the presence of text-align != start [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-12-03].
  94. # [18:20] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0494.html
  95. # [18:21] <fantasai> (wrt ACTION-118, for list-item-position: outside; behavior is defined for inside)
  96. # [18:21] <sylvaing> dbaron: the spec also says that @charset directive must be at the beginning
  97. # [18:22] <sylvaing> dbaron: so this would be a case where comments cannot be at the top
  98. # [18:23] <sylvaing> bert: we might still want to clarify the wording
  99. # [18:23] <sylvaing> ACTION: bert to propose new wording
  100. # [18:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  101. # [18:23] * RRSAgent records action 2
  102. # [18:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-119 - Propose new wording [on Bert Bos - due 2008-12-03].
  103. # [18:23] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0483.html
  104. # [18:23] <Zakim> +jcraig
  105. # [18:23] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86
  106. # [18:23] <Zakim> -dsinger
  107. # [18:23] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-87
  108. # [18:23] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  109. # [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  110. # [18:24] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, sylvaing, fantasai, [Mozilla], saloni, Bert, MoZ, SteveZ, Melinda_Grant, [Microsoft], ??P30, jcraig
  111. # [18:24] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Arron
  112. # [18:24] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  113. # [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, jcraig is dsinger
  114. # [18:24] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  115. # [18:24] <sylvaing> Earth to Alex
  116. # [18:27] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-88
  117. # [18:28] <dbaron> for the 2-D part, not the 3-D part
  118. # [18:28] <sylvaing> glazou: transformations can be demo'ed interoperably in WebKit and Mozilla; can we move the spec to CR ?
  119. # [18:29] <sylvaing> dsinger explains changes to document e.g. property value types have been clarified
  120. # [18:29] <sylvaing> (scribe did not catch the first change)
  121. # [18:30] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.113.228)
  122. # [18:30] <sylvaing> dsinger: we also want to drive the spec forward to complete interoperable implementations
  123. # [18:30] <sylvaing> dsinger: we are working on test suites as well; no estimates yet. will get one
  124. # [18:30] <sylvaing> dbaron: we have tests, may not be in a useful format yet
  125. # [18:31] <sylvaing> mozilla, apple to work together on tests. will keep the mailing list posted.
  126. # [18:31] <dsinger> I worked on (a) which properties are animatable/transitionable, precisely (it used to say something vague) and (b) what does it mean to animate/transition all the valkue types which can be (e.g. color means interpolating in RGB, like SVG)
  127. # [18:32] <sylvaing> glazou: i demoed transforms and transitions at Paris Web and the feedback was very positive
  128. # [18:32] <sylvaing> glazou: most welcomed was backgrounds and borders, media queries, transitions and transforms
  129. # [18:33] <sylvaing> glazou: interest in CSS 2.1 was essentially zero
  130. # [18:33] <dsinger> thank you for the encouraging report
  131. # [18:34] <sylvaing> glazou: innovation would increase the profile of the WG. the sooner we have tests and specs the better.
  132. # [18:35] <sylvaing> glazou: Selectors API Last Call WD. Namespace matching was removed. does the WG have comments ?
  133. # [18:35] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@24.143.70.177)
  134. # [18:36] <sylvaing> dbaron: 2/3 of the spec's complexity for implementors and the spec was namespaces even though most authors care less about it
  135. # [18:37] <sylvaing> bert: is the next version going to support namespaces ?
  136. # [18:37] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/
  137. # [18:38] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/#resolving
  138. # [18:38] <sylvaing> dbaron: I thought there was a plan for eventual support. BorisZ did have an implementation until this was dropped from the spec
  139. # [18:38] <sylvaing> glazou: nothing in the document indicating this is to be resolved in a future version of the document
  140. # [18:39] <sylvaing> glazou: dbaron, are you saying this is not worth the implementation cost ?
  141. # [18:40] <sylvaing> dbaron: it is worth considering for the next version. for now, this is the right thing to do
  142. # [18:40] <dbaron> I think what's in this draft is something that can go to REC quickly; if it had namespaces it wouldn't be able to.
  143. # [18:41] <sylvaing> glazou: will communicate our WG has no further comments on Selectors API Last Call
  144. # [18:41] * alexmog has figured out the IRC
  145. # [18:41] <sylvaing> glazou: review period for the charter ended a week ago.
  146. # [18:42] <sylvaing> glazou: except for a minor comment, the charter is likely going to be approved.
  147. # [18:42] <dbaron> glazou, you're breaking up
  148. # [18:43] <sylvaing> (glazou also in orbit)
  149. # [18:43] <glazou> http://www.w3.org/Style/2008/css-charter
  150. # [18:44] <sylvaing> glazou enumerates high priority documents. all of them need test suites and these are on the critical path
  151. # [18:45] <dsinger> bubble bubble bubble
  152. # [18:46] <sylvaing> fantasai: HP is working on paged media tests. Opera has a test suite for media queries
  153. # [18:46] <sylvaing> dbaron: mozilla has a tests for backgrounds and borders that could be useful
  154. # [18:47] <dsinger> who was the proponent?
  155. # [18:49] <dsinger> (I will ask here what we have, but it's out of my field, so I don't know)
  156. # [18:50] <alexmog> can we do a few minutes on table captions?
  157. # [18:50] <Bert> (I'm co-editor, I should probably contribute some tests, too...)
  158. # [18:53] <sylvaing> glazou reviews which specs are implemented or partially implemented
  159. # [18:54] <sylvaing> dbaron: of the specs in medium priority we care most about fonts, transformations and transitions, values & units and multicol
  160. # [18:54] <sylvaing> glazou: and these are the ones web designers are most interested in
  161. # [18:56] <sylvaing> microsoft : no priorities yet. apple agrees with current priorities.
  162. # [18:57] <sylvaing> fantasai: jason's answer on list marker is that centering text does not move the marker but right alignment moves the marker
  163. # [18:57] <fantasai> to the right side of the list
  164. # [18:57] <sylvaing> fantasai will post jason's response to www-style
  165. # [18:58] <alexmog> http://www.w3.org/Style/2008/css-charter
  166. # [18:58] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0483.html
  167. # [18:59] <sylvaing> alexmog explains the issue
  168. # [19:03] <sylvaing> fantasai: agree that the anonymous table box is a block formatting context; not sure we want to block margin collapsing
  169. # [19:04] <dbaron> The other issue with margin collapsing is where the margins of the table itself go.
  170. # [19:04] * fantasai thinks the diagram is very clear on this, and we had a very long discussion about it
  171. # [19:05] <fantasai> which resulted in the current diagram
  172. # [19:08] * sylvaing is having TPAC margin collapsing flashbacks
  173. # [19:09] * glazou too
  174. # [19:09] <sylvaing> alexmog and fantasai having a long conversation about margin collapsing between caption and table
  175. # [19:10] <sylvaing> fantasai, glazou: what do other implementers expect ?
  176. # [19:10] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-88
  177. # [19:11] <fantasai> alexmog suggests treating anonymous box as a BFC except allowing outer caption margin to collapse with outer table margin
  178. # [19:11] <fantasai> alexmog would prefer, however, not to do the collapsing because of complexity
  179. # [19:12] <sylvaing> alexmog to make a proposal to be reviewed next week
  180. # [19:12] <dsinger> thanks!
  181. # [19:12] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  182. # [19:12] <dsinger> bye!
  183. # [19:12] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  184. # [19:12] <Zakim> -dsinger
  185. # [19:12] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  186. # [19:12] <Zakim> -MoZ
  187. # [19:12] <Zakim> -saloni
  188. # [19:12] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  189. # [19:12] <Zakim> -glazou
  190. # [19:12] <Zakim> -fantasai
  191. # [19:12] <Zakim> -Bert
  192. # [19:12] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  193. # [19:12] <Zakim> -??P30
  194. # [19:12] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  195. # [19:12] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, glazou, sylvaing, +1.908.580.aaaa, fantasai, David_Baron, saloni, Bert, MoZ, SteveZ, Melinda_Grant, Arron
  196. # [19:12] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  197. # [19:12] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Quit: melinda)
  198. # [19:13] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  199. # [19:13] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@82.230.92.154) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920])
  200. # [19:17] * Quits: SaloniR (43b68321@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  201. # [20:25] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  202. # [20:25] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  203. # [20:55] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  204. # [21:03] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@24.6.113.228) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920])
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  211. # Session Close: Thu Nov 27 00:00:00 2008

The end :)