/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2008-12-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 03 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [04:51] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Connection reset by peer)
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  20. # [17:51] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  21. # [17:52] <glazou> hello
  22. # [17:53] * Joins: plinss_ (plinss@98.119.98.131)
  23. # [17:56] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.72)
  24. # [17:56] * Joins: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.105.243)
  25. # [17:56] <anne> hi
  26. # [17:57] <Dsinger> Hi. On bus on mute, as before, to about 9:25
  27. # [17:57] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  28. # [17:58] <anne> can join in about 10 minutes if we have a call
  29. # [17:58] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  30. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-css-irc
  31. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, this is Style
  32. # [17:58] <Zakim> ok, glazou; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  33. # [17:58] <Dsinger> We had an agenda etc so I assume so...
  34. # [17:58] <glazou> anne: we do have a call
  35. # [17:59] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.17.190.200) (Quit: Leaving...)
  36. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
  37. # [17:59] <plinss_> zakim, +1.858.354 is me
  38. # [17:59] <Zakim> +plinss_; got it
  39. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  40. # [17:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, glazou, plinss_
  41. # [17:59] <Dsinger> Glazou: on bus on iPhone on mute to say 9:25...sorry
  42. # [17:59] <Zakim> -plinss_
  43. # [17:59] <glazou> Dsinger: ok
  44. # [18:00] <Zakim> +plinss_
  45. # [18:01] * glazou is exhausted, one of his sons had gastroenteritis last night...
  46. # [18:01] <Dsinger> Old. Sorry to hear that
  47. # [18:02] <Dsinger> Oof
  48. # [18:02] <glazou> sh** happens
  49. # [18:02] <Zakim> -dsinger
  50. # [18:02] * Quits: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.105.243) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
  51. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Bert
  52. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  53. # [18:03] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  54. # [18:03] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  55. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dsinger
  56. # [18:03] <Zakim> +saloni
  57. # [18:03] * Joins: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.105.243)
  58. # [18:04] <Dsinger> Zakin, mute me
  59. # [18:04] <Dsinger> Zakim, mute me
  60. # [18:04] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  61. # [18:05] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  62. # [18:05] <Dsinger> A big tyou to AT&T for dropping me...
  63. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  64. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  65. # [18:05] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  66. # [18:06] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  67. # [18:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  68. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  69. # [18:07] <anne> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
  70. # [18:07] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  71. # [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  72. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss_, Bert, [Microsoft], dsinger (muted), saloni, [Mozilla], anne
  73. # [18:07] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  74. # [18:07] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  75. # [18:08] <Dsinger> Not on an iPhone, sorry
  76. # [18:09] <glazou> ScribeNick: glazou
  77. # [18:09] <glazou> plinss: extra agenda items ?
  78. # [18:09] <glazou> plinss: apparently not
  79. # [18:09] <glazou> plinss: first item on the agenda
  80. # [18:09] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86
  81. # [18:10] <glazou> plinss: issue 86
  82. # [18:10] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  83. # [18:10] <glazou> plinss: list item marker placement follow-up
  84. # [18:10] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.103)
  85. # [18:10] <glazou> plinss: we had discussion about this on www-style and twitter
  86. # [18:10] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
  87. # [18:10] <glazou> plinss: text-align vs. list-style-position inside/outside
  88. # [18:10] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss_ (5%), glazou (24%), SteveZ (53%)
  89. # [18:11] <glazou> glazou: I can summarize
  90. # [18:12] <glazou> glazou: inside makes the marker glue to the text
  91. # [18:12] <glazou> dbaron: this change affects page that use no cssat all
  92. # [18:12] <glazou> dbaron: we're worried about the larger set that don't use list-style-position
  93. # [18:12] <glazou> s/set/set of users
  94. # [18:12] <glazou> plinss: I am missing something here
  95. # [18:12] <glazou> dbaron: because ouside is the default
  96. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P7
  97. # [18:13] <glazou> dbaron: in a css-based renderer, we probably need a new value of list-style-position and make it the new default value
  98. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P7 is fantasai
  99. # [18:13] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  100. # [18:14] <glazou> plinss: I see the problem about changing the behavior about that
  101. # [18:14] <glazou> dbaron: I am not even sure changing is the right word
  102. # [18:14] <dbaron> since what everybody does disagrees with the spec
  103. # [18:14] <glazou> saloni: I also pinged www-style about floats and it seems to be the same issue
  104. # [18:15] <glazou> saloni: there is divergence between specs and implems
  105. # [18:15] <glazou> saloni: align with the start of the first line box
  106. # [18:15] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  107. # [18:16] <glazou> saloni: then we can deal with center
  108. # [18:16] <glazou> saloni: put marker at some distance of line box is ok to me
  109. # [18:16] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  110. # [18:16] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/12/03-css-irc#T17-14-46
  111. # [18:16] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  112. # [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  113. # [18:17] <glazou> stevez: there is a convention here in publishing
  114. # [18:17] <glazou> stevez: the bullets don't overlap the marker
  115. # [18:17] <glazou> glazou: a desirable behavior is marker above the list item if centered
  116. # [18:18] <Dsinger> Sure if it's numbered
  117. # [18:18] * alexmog observes that MS Word switches the bullet to 'inside' when next to a float, and it makes good sense
  118. # [18:18] <glazou> stevez: yes that's a common case
  119. # [18:18] <Dsinger> Sub-lists?
  120. # [18:19] <glazou> glazou: I was just quoting the comments I got from web designers
  121. # [18:19] <glazou> all: we can do that in css3 in different ways
  122. # [18:19] <glazou> fantasai: use :before
  123. # [18:19] <Dsinger> I cannot imagine where centered sublists go
  124. # [18:20] <glazou> plinss: do we have a consensus on initial issue here ?
  125. # [18:20] <glazou> fantasai: previous resolution on overflow
  126. # [18:20] <glazou> dbaron: saying what ?
  127. # [18:21] <glazou> saloni: marker that does not screw with div that has overflow
  128. # [18:22] <glazou> saloni: more sites using floats that text-align
  129. # [18:22] <glazou> fantasai: text-align shifts line box
  130. # [18:22] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  131. # [18:23] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  132. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai questioned whether we can get the designers' expected behavior for text-align if we define its position as an offset
  133. # [18:23] <glazou> saloni: what if we took the max of the list item box or the first line box ?
  134. # [18:23] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.105)
  135. # [18:24] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog
  136. # [18:24] <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
  137. # [18:24] <glazou> dbaron: I am not sure I understand
  138. # [18:24] <glazou> saloni: the max of width of the entire list item and the width of 1st line box
  139. # [18:25] <glazou> saloni:if you pick the wider box, and offset from that one
  140. # [18:25] <glazou> dbaron: the list item itself is always wider than the line box
  141. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: need to be very careful in defining this because text-indent also needs to work properly here
  142. # [18:26] <dbaron> neither text-indent nor text-align affect the size of the line box
  143. # [18:26] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  144. # [18:26] <glazou> plinss: no resolution here, we don't agree on behaviour
  145. # [18:26] * Quits: Dsinger (mobile@67.218.105.243) (Ping timeout)
  146. # [18:26] <Zakim> +dsinger.a
  147. # [18:27] <Zakim> -dsinger
  148. # [18:27] <glazou> dbaron: neither text-align nor text-indent affect the size of the line box
  149. # [18:27] <glazou> plinss: affected by a float ?
  150. # [18:27] <glazou> dbaron: yes
  151. # [18:28] <glazou> dbaron: I believe
  152. # [18:28] <glazou> can I recommend another minute taker, my phone connection is really bad
  153. # [18:29] <sylvaing> should we have one or more testcases and agree on what the current specified behavior is for them ? since it seems current implementations are not useful in figuring what that is...
  154. # [18:29] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  155. # [18:29] <fantasai> fantasai: Defining the marker position as an offset from the start of the first line box will not solve the float problem in a reasonable way
  156. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: It will place the marker on top of the float
  157. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: that is not what designers want
  158. # [18:30] * Bert hears Daniel almost as if he's here in the room, but Fantasai and Saloni sound muffled.
  159. # [18:30] <dbaron> dbaron: we need the float displacement properties in css3-box for that
  160. # [18:30] * glazou hears Peter, Elika, Saloni cut, dbaron almost ok, sylvaing so-so
  161. # [18:31] * anne can't really follow it well at all :/
  162. # [18:31] * sylvaing is not even talking and can be heard so-so. Rad.
  163. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Is the line box as wide as the containing block except in the presence of floats?
  164. # [18:31] <fantasai> dbaron: yes, I think that's the case
  165. # [18:32] <fantasai> stevez: It would seem to me that if you have a float for it to push the line box and the float
  166. # [18:32] <fantasai> stevez: since the marker is outside the line box, you would have to push it in further in order for the bullet to have room to appear
  167. # [18:33] * glazou Bert is the only one I hear really well with dbaron
  168. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: then subsequent lines would have to be pushed that extra amount, too
  169. # [18:33] <fantasai> dbaron: There are some proposals in css3-box that deal with this problem, about how much to push things in
  170. # [18:33] <fantasai> dbaron: they need a little more work, but they mostly solve the problem
  171. # [18:33] <fantasai> bert: They do solve the problem. They're maybe a little hard to understand.
  172. # [18:34] <fantasai> ?: but we're discussing css2.1
  173. # [18:34] <dbaron> s/?:/SteveZ:/
  174. # [18:34] <fantasai> dbaron: Well, if you define that they're positioned relative to the line box now, then you can define how much they're pushed in later
  175. # [18:35] <glazou> CSS Charter was just approved
  176. # [18:35] <sylvaing> time is 9:34. Should we summarize the requirements for a write-up ?
  177. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't mind what we define here, as long as it doesn't conflict with our previous resolutions or what designers expect for text-align
  178. # [18:36] <fantasai> saloni: I don't think we asked designers about float behavior
  179. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: No, we didn't. But if you ask them about that, I think you'll get responses asking for float-displace with reasonable default behavior for lists
  180. # [18:38] <anne> I have to go, sorry
  181. # [18:38] <anne> (not that I could hear very well anyway)
  182. # [18:38] <Zakim> -anne
  183. # [18:40] <fantasai> ?: but that's not css2.1
  184. # [18:40] <fantasai> saloni: We want IE8 to be able to follow the spec and be consistent with other browsers
  185. # [18:41] <fantasai> saloni: Other browsers have slight differences in how much offset, but they're consistent about interpretation of how the float affects the marker's placement
  186. # [18:41] <fantasai> peter: and the marker moves with text align?
  187. # [18:42] <fantasai> saloni: yes
  188. # [18:42] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm seeing that the marker moves with the text in FF and Opera, but not in Webkit
  189. # [18:42] <fantasai> dbaron: or at least an older webkit
  190. # [18:43] <fantasai> dbaron: We got feedback from a small number of web designers
  191. # [18:43] <fantasai> dbaron: And when Mozilla behaved the other way we got bugs filed
  192. # [18:44] <dbaron> On http://dbaron.org/css/test/2008/text-align-list-item , Mozilla, Opera, and WinIE7 put the bullets next to the text, and WebKit puts the bullets along the left
  193. # [18:44] <fantasai> peter: I'm not sure if the use cases that Steve is citing are outside markers or inside markers. For inside markers we want the bullet to stay with the text, but for outside we want them to stay outside.
  194. # [18:44] <fantasai> stevez: IIRC table of contents with centered items keep the number with the text
  195. # [18:45] <fantasai> stevez: It seems to me that the default value of list-item-position could be a different value that matches what the browser does today
  196. # [18:45] <Zakim> + +1.408.454.aabb
  197. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai doesn't think that's a good idea
  198. # [18:46] * Joins: dino (dino@59.167.39.9)
  199. # [18:46] * dino zakim, who is here?
  200. # [18:46] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, plinss_, Bert, [Microsoft], saloni, [Mozilla], fantasai, SteveZ, dsinger.a, +1.408.454.aabb
  201. # [18:46] * Zakim [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  202. # [18:46] * Zakim [Microsoft] has alexmog
  203. # [18:46] * Zakim sees on irc: dino, dsinger_, arronei, fantasai, alexmog, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, sylvaing, plinss_, glazou, Lachy, anne, Hixie, trackbot, plinss, shepazu, krijnh, Bert
  204. # [18:46] * dino zakim, I am 408
  205. # [18:46] * Zakim sorry, dino, I do not see a party named '408'
  206. # [18:46] <fantasai> The only thing that would be different between outside and this new value would be the marker's position
  207. # [18:46] * dino zakim, I am aabb
  208. # [18:46] * Zakim +dino; got it
  209. # [18:47] <fantasai> You don't want to affect the default text-wrapping behavior
  210. # [18:48] <fantasai> (how the text wraps for the second line wrt bullet position)
  211. # [18:48] <fantasai> SteveZ: I think what Saloni is asking for is to codify existing bheavior
  212. # [18:49] <sylvaing> ie8 has to choose between interop or following the spec. we'd love to do both :)
  213. # [18:49] <fantasai> Saloni: I don't think our proposal changes the meaning of outside or inside
  214. # [18:51] <fantasai> SteveZ: Does anyone expect the marker to be on top of the float?
  215. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: No, but because of the way the css model works we can't fix that without css3
  216. # [18:52] <fantasai> SteveZ: So it sounds like the best thing we can do is leave it undefined, because that's not desireable behavior
  217. # [18:52] <fantasai> Saloni: that's not the behavior in the spec
  218. # [18:53] <fantasai> Saloni: The spec implies that the marker doesn't move to make room for the float
  219. # [18:54] <fantasai> SteveZ: So sounds like we should make it undefined
  220. # [18:54] <fantasai> Peter: Do we have consensus to make behavior for floating clearly undefined for css2.1?
  221. # [18:54] <fantasai> Peter: have an opportunity to fix in css3
  222. # [18:54] * glazou ALL : AFTER CHARTER APPROVAL, YOUR AC-REP NEEDS YOUR ORG TO REJOIN THE GROUP
  223. # [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: If we leave the behavior undefined here
  224. # [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: In CSS3 we can have a float-displace value that computes differently depending on whether the box is display: list-item or not
  225. # [18:56] <fantasai> dbaron: float-displace requires the author to set something on an ancestor of the list-item.
  226. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: It's hard to do that automaticallky
  227. # [18:57] <dbaron> (something == indent-edge-reset, I think)
  228. # [18:57] <fantasai> SteveZ: If we choose the undefined route, we have a chance of defining a better default in css3
  229. # [18:58] <fantasai> dbaron: So, that would fix the problem because we need the position of the /text/ undefined, not just the position of the marker
  230. # [18:58] <fantasai> SteveZ: So maybe we leave that undefined. Allow the marker to cause some suitable displacement of the text to avoid overlaps
  231. # [18:58] <fantasai> dbaron: Maybe. Depends on the actual text.
  232. # [18:58] <fantasai> ACTION: SteveZ write a proposal that allows for reasonable behavior
  233. # [18:58] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  234. # [18:58] * RRSAgent records action 1
  235. # [18:58] <trackbot> Created ACTION-120 - Write a proposal that allows for reasonable behavior [on Steve Zilles - due 2008-12-10].
  236. # [19:00] <fantasai> Steve: I agree with the point that without going to css3 we can't really solve the problem
  237. # [19:00] <fantasai> Steve: Leaving it undefined allows existing implementations to be compliant, and it allows us to make a reasonable solution in css3
  238. # [19:00] <fantasai> Peter: we're out of tim
  239. # [19:01] <fantasai> e
  240. # [19:01] <fantasai> Peter: Make sure you rejoin the group.
  241. # [19:01] <Zakim> -dino
  242. # [19:01] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  243. # [19:01] <Zakim> -saloni
  244. # [19:01] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  245. # [19:01] <Zakim> -glazou
  246. # [19:01] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  247. # [19:01] <Zakim> -plinss_
  248. # [19:01] <Zakim> -fantasai
  249. # [19:01] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  250. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Bert
  251. # [19:01] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126)
  252. # [19:02] * Quits: dino (dino@59.167.39.9) (Quit: dino)
  253. # [19:02] <Zakim> -dsinger.a
  254. # [19:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  255. # [19:02] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, glazou, +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss_, Bert, sylvaing, saloni, David_Baron, anne, SteveZ, fantasai, alexmog, +1.408.454.aabb, dino
  256. # [19:02] * Quits: dsinger_ (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger_)
  257. # [19:03] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.72) (Ping timeout)
  258. # [19:03] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.142.45.126) (Quit: melinda)
  259. # [20:02] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  260. # [20:40] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  261. # [20:47] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  262. # [20:47] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  263. # [23:11] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  264. # [23:11] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  265. # Session Close: Thu Dec 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)