/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-02-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 04 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:56] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  4. # [01:41] <fantasai> oooh, magic! http://test.csswg.org/svn-view/cvs-import/
  5. # [01:42] * fantasai can see everyone's checkins, yay
  6. # [01:47] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: shepazu)
  7. # [01:56] <fantasai> now to import the new build system so I can figure out how to put this all together..
  8. # [04:25] * Quits: fantasai (fantasai@63.245.220.225) (Ping timeout)
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  16. # [14:41] <anne> Bert, so url(/**/) seems like a syntax error, you do not get {comment} out there at all
  17. # [14:41] <anne> / neither matches {string} nor {w} nor {url}
  18. # [14:43] <anne> but then I can't figure out how url(test) matches the CSS 2.1 grammar either
  19. # [14:43] <anne> what am I missing here?
  20. # [14:45] <anne> that the grammar is overridden by section 4 in dubious ways?
  21. # [14:47] <anne> even the unofficial section 4 grammar seems to disallow normal ASCII characters
  22. # [14:49] <anne> maybe I read [!#$%&*-~] wrongly?
  23. # [14:50] <anne> it's unfortunate CSS parsing at this point is so much harder than HTML parsing
  24. # [14:50] <anne> at least in terms of understanding what is supposed to happen
  25. # [15:07] <anne> apparently the hyphen represents a range
  26. # [15:07] <anne> grmbl
  27. # [15:14] <Bert> The sequence "*-~" in the regexp is a range (in ASCII or Unicode order), it includes most notably all letters and digits.
  28. # [15:14] <anne> yeah, Rune told me
  29. # [15:15] <Bert> It's not any harder, the SGML and XML specs use vary similar range notations. You just *think* you are more familiar with HTML :-)
  30. # [15:16] <anne> HTML5 doesn't
  31. # [15:17] <Bert> No, HTML5 is impossible to read. It has procedures instead of expressions :-(
  32. # [15:17] <anne> I find XML confusing from time to time as well
  33. # [15:57] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: shepazu)
  34. # [16:48] <anne> ok, so the issue was with error handling of url() values in Opera
  35. # [17:10] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
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  37. # [17:55] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  38. # [17:56] <plinss> anne: fwiw, url(/**/) is actually valid, since "/**/" is a perfectly valid URL. As would be url(/*)
  39. # [17:57] * Joins: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.241.179)
  40. # [17:57] <plinss> which is why you can't have comments inside a url() function...
  41. # [17:57] <anne> plinss, yeah, realized that later, thanks
  42. # [17:58] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.191.119.20) (Quit: Leaving...)
  43. # [17:58] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  44. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-css-irc
  45. # [17:58] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  46. # [17:58] <plinss> zakim, this is style
  47. # [17:58] <Zakim> ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  48. # [17:59] <anne> I still don't have access to my Macbook so this week I'll participate over IRC
  49. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +95089aabb
  50. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim: +aabb is me
  51. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, +aabb is me
  52. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'
  53. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is me
  54. # [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  55. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  56. # [18:01] * emilyw is having phone issues this week, I'll also be over IRC only.
  57. # [18:02] <glazou> that's ok emilyw , thanks for letting us know
  58. # [18:02] * glazou casts a spell on TwitPic api
  59. # [18:03] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.73)
  60. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P50
  61. # [18:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  62. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Bert
  63. # [18:07] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  64. # [18:07] <glazou> Bert, we cannot hear you
  65. # [18:07] <glazou> or is it only me
  66. # [18:07] <glazou> ?
  67. # [18:08] <Zakim> -glazou
  68. # [18:08] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@71.138.141.152)
  69. # [18:09] * glazou has a lot of trouble w/ bridge today
  70. # [18:09] <glazou> says passcode is not valid
  71. # [18:09] <glazou> switching pjones
  72. # [18:10] <Zakim> +glazou
  73. # [18:10] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
  74. # [18:10] * ChrisL zakim, code?
  75. # [18:10] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152) given for the conference code, ChrisL
  76. # [18:11] <szilles> Scribenick: szilles
  77. # [18:11] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  78. # [18:11] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
  79. # [18:11] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-css-irc#T17-09-39
  80. # [18:12] <szilles> Issue 84 deferred for lack of place to put a solution
  81. # [18:12] <szilles> Issue 85 Box Shadow
  82. # [18:12] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  83. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  84. # [18:12] * Joins: dino (dino@59.167.41.206)
  85. # [18:12] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/85
  86. # [18:12] <fantasai> (also deferred because it's not a high-priority item)
  87. # [18:13] <fantasai> s/also/84 also/
  88. # [18:13] <szilles> BB: the other option is the box shadow follows the edge of the object; the outline
  89. # [18:13] * ChrisL waves to dino
  90. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.408.454.aacc
  91. # [18:13] * dino waves
  92. # [18:13] <szilles> CL: that does not work well if the edge is semi-transparent making an edge defn difficult
  93. # [18:13] * dino zakim, aacc is me
  94. # [18:13] * Zakim +dino; got it
  95. # [18:13] <ChrisL> zakim, where is 408
  96. # [18:13] <Zakim> ChrisL, I do not see a party named 'where'. If you meant to ask a question you need to add '?'
  97. # [18:14] <ChrisL> zakim, where is 408?
  98. # [18:14] <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.408 is California
  99. # [18:14] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
  100. # [18:14] <Zakim> +sylvaing, arronei; got it
  101. # [18:14] <fantasai> Daniel: Question is, do we want border-image to suppress box-shadow.
  102. # [18:14] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: shepazu)
  103. # [18:14] <szilles> Do we want border imageto surpress box shadow because it is too difficult to handle, being non rectangular and possibly lacking a hard edge
  104. # [18:15] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  105. # [18:15] <ChrisL> you could do a shadow by taking the alpha channel, blur, offset, and paint in the shadow colour
  106. # [18:16] <szilles> CL: can take it the alpha channel and paints it in with a blur
  107. # [18:16] <ChrisL> dino said that this is what Safari does
  108. # [18:17] <szilles> Dean: the underlying services does this for us so it is not impossible
  109. # [18:18] <szilles> Daniel: can we keep box shadow and identify it at risk
  110. # [18:18] <szilles> CL: Or, can we document what webkit does and suggest that as the possible solution and see if people sign up for it
  111. # [18:19] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  112. # [18:19] <ChrisL> I would like to see some test cases on this feature
  113. # [18:19] <szilles> Fantasii: With both a dashed border and a border image, the dashed border ignored and only the border image is painted
  114. # [18:19] <sylvaing> so it always shadows the box, not the border
  115. # [18:20] * Quits: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.241.179) (Ping timeout)
  116. # [18:20] <szilles> Fantasai; the shadow is just painted on the "edges" of the border box
  117. # [18:21] <szilles> HL: If the inside keyword is given the shadow iis painting inside the box (border or padding)
  118. # [18:21] <szilles> Fantasai: If you have a zig-zag border like that in the spec, then the box shadow is no placed in the useful place
  119. # [18:22] <szilles> CL: putting the shadow in the image (for the border image) does nto work because the shadow is on a different side for different borders
  120. # [18:23] * Joins: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.241.179)
  121. # [18:23] <szilles> Fantasai: Making box shadow do more than rectangles is pushing the current property too much; if you want the Webkit effect, this should be done with a new property
  122. # [18:24] <fantasai> s/Webkit effect/full shadow effect/
  123. # [18:25] <szilles> Many: It does not seem that border image should surpress box shadow because the user can always explicitly turn off box shadow if that is needed
  124. # [18:25] <szilles> CL: to HL please make you test cases available
  125. # [18:26] <szilles> HL: inside shadows are really cool
  126. # [18:26] <szilles> RESOLVED: Box Shadow is not surpressed by Border image
  127. # [18:27] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/86
  128. # [18:27] <szilles> We need to document with Webkit is currently doing and develop test case to show the effects desired
  129. # [18:27] <szilles> Issue 86
  130. # [18:28] <szilles> Fantasai: there is a content box option on both background origin and background-clip
  131. # [18:29] <szilles> The content box option is not useful for the background-clip so it should be removed
  132. # [18:29] <fantasai> Fantasai: It almost always looks too tight against the content, and if you have a quality font the letters will often leak outside the box
  133. # [18:30] <sylvaing> arronei says: only cool use would be for testcases.
  134. # [18:30] <fantasai> Fantasai: So I propose removing content-box
  135. # [18:30] <fantasai> Fantasai: And having content-box in the background shorthand only set background-origin, leaving background-clip to its initial value
  136. # [18:32] <szilles> PL: People want clipping to the content box to prevent clicking on other than the content
  137. # [18:33] <szilles> Fantasai: This is typically done with non-repeating images and there are other, better ways to handle this
  138. # [18:34] <szilles> especially because they most likely want a region around the content box rather than the exact content box
  139. # [18:35] <szilles> PL: Is the problem you describe just an issue with the shorthand
  140. # [18:35] * Zakim szilles, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  141. # [18:36] <szilles> HL: I agree with Elicka
  142. # [18:36] <szilles> HL: if we can remove something we should
  143. # [18:37] <Bert> I also agee with Elika, i.e., no need for bg-clip: content-box.
  144. # [18:37] <szilles> PL: the implementation cost is trivial and I predict that people will find use cases for this
  145. # [18:39] <szilles> SZ: One should be careful with removing things because one can because the users may see consistency between the set of options that the implementer does not
  146. # [18:39] <anne> +1 to removing dubious features
  147. # [18:40] <szilles> Fantasai: The main reason that I would like it removed is that it makes the shorthand less useful
  148. # [18:40] <szilles> AE: It would be very useful for verify test cases
  149. # [18:41] <fantasai> AE: But I don't see any other use
  150. # [18:41] * dino anne, isn't all of CSS dubious? :)
  151. # [18:42] <szilles> REmove: AE, Fantasai, HL, Sylvan, Anne
  152. # [18:42] <szilles> Abstain: SZ, CL, Dean
  153. # [18:42] <szilles> Keep: PL, Daniel
  154. # [18:42] <szilles> RESOLVED: Remove the content box option on background-clip
  155. # [18:43] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0225.html
  156. # [18:43] <szilles> Fantasai: it is impler to say that any property that takes and image can take a gradient
  157. # [18:44] <ChrisL> So, this proposal is effectively a paint server?
  158. # [18:44] <szilles> CL: this makes it effectively a "paint server"
  159. # [18:45] * anne dino :)
  160. # [18:45] <szilles> Fantasai: it is a notation for anything that defines a 2D graphical drawing, with or without an intrinsic dimensionss
  161. # [18:45] <szilles> s/onss/ons/
  162. # [18:46] <szilles> s/an intr/intr/
  163. # [18:46] <szilles> Dean: Webkit can also drop references to Canvas as well
  164. # [18:47] <szilles> RESOLVED: accept Elika's proposal
  165. # [18:47] <szilles> ACTITON: HL: implement the Elika's proposal
  166. # [18:47] <dino> Dean: WebKit effectively has an <image> type in such properties (eg. gradients and canvas-images in backgrounds)
  167. # [18:48] <fantasai> Item 3: duplication and @font-face - deferred
  168. # [18:49] <fantasai> Item 4: spec names - have a previous resolution, no need to revisit
  169. # [18:49] <fantasai> Item 5: Follow-up on margins at page and column breaks
  170. # [18:49] <fantasai> Steve summarizes his points on www-style
  171. # [18:50] <fantasai> Steve: I think we can resolve 2.1 now
  172. # [18:50] <Bert> ACTION håkon: implement Elika's proposal for <image> type http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0225.html
  173. # [18:50] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  174. # [18:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-122 - Implement Elika's proposal for <image> type http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0225.html [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2009-02-11].
  175. # [18:50] * Bert Fixed the typo in ACTITON...
  176. # [18:51] <fantasai> Previous tenative resolution: Accept Melinda's proposed CSS2.1 wording to allow margins to be kept after a forced page break for CSS2.1 Issue 98
  177. # [18:51] <fantasai> Steve: Should this be on page-break-before only, or on both?
  178. # [18:52] <fantasai> Howcome: It's random whether I use before or after. It depends on what markup hooks are available.
  179. # [18:53] <fantasai> Steve: If you're putting in the margin, then you have the hook
  180. # [18:53] <fantasai> Howcome: Still, I'm not comfortable with attaching too much semantics to the difference
  181. # [18:54] <Bert> (I think I would like to be able to say 'page-break-after: chapter-start-page' to force the next page to be a named page with a big margin...)
  182. # [18:55] * Quits: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.241.179) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121])
  183. # [18:55] <fantasai> Proposed to defer discussion to Tokyo
  184. # [18:55] <fantasai> Steve suggests we get implementation feedback
  185. # [18:56] <fantasai> Topic: Selectors
  186. # [18:56] <dino> Here is a box-shadow on border-image (and other stuff) test: http://pastie.org/379633
  187. # [18:56] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0051.html
  188. # [18:56] <dino> WebKit does follow border-radius for box-shadow, but not on border-image at the moment.
  189. # [18:56] <szilles> Further discussion is delayed until Tokyo
  190. # [18:56] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  191. # [18:56] <szilles> Selectors:
  192. # [18:57] <szilles> Fantasai: 1. drop :: selection from Selectors level 3
  193. # [18:58] <szilles> 2. otherwise drop outlines form the set of properties
  194. # [18:59] <szilles> Daniel: :: was introduced to allow enough contrast be introduceable for accessibility
  195. # [19:00] <szilles> Daniel: I known a perosn that is color blind in the blue area which makes the most common selection feedback invisible to him
  196. # [19:00] <anne> s/:: was/::selection was/
  197. # [19:00] <anne> s/perosn/person/
  198. # [19:01] <fantasai> Fantasai: Changing the default color of selection shouldn't have to be done in CSS, it could be done as a UA pref
  199. # [19:01] <szilles> Fantasai: requiring a stylesheet to fix this problem is way too difficult for many users to solve there problem; it is better to have the UA give support for fixing the problem
  200. # [19:01] <fantasai> Sylvain: OSes usually have settings for these things as well
  201. # [19:02] <anne> I agree that keeping ::selection might be more trouble than it's worth
  202. # [19:02] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/atypical-color-response.htm8
  203. # [19:02] <szilles> Daniel: It is not difficult to implement; it could be useful to some designers; I do not see the point in removing it
  204. # [19:03] * anne has to run
  205. # [19:03] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.73) (Ping timeout)
  206. # [19:03] <szilles> Fantasai: The main reason is that the implementations are inconsistent at this point and solving the inconsitencies would involve more specification than we can do now
  207. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  208. # [19:05] <szilles> Fantasai: because the cascading is not well defined for this veature the user (end or stylesheet creator) would be surprised by the results
  209. # [19:06] <szilles> Daniel: It would be easy to implement your option 2 so I think that would be a better soulution.
  210. # [19:06] <szilles> CL; is the implementation of this going to hold up CR?
  211. # [19:08] <szilles> Fantasai: it will hold up CR because the current, multiple implementations are sufficiently different that we need to nail down a better definition
  212. # [19:09] <szilles> Many: Let's mark this feature at risk and see if we can nail down a definition and develop testcases
  213. # [19:10] <szilles> BB: Lets not add a definition that is only for now and we would have to change later; let's get Selectors 3 out the door
  214. # [19:10] <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
  215. # [19:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.858.354.aaaa, [Microsoft], ??P50, SteveZ, Bert, glazou, ChrisL, dino
  216. # [19:10] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
  217. # [19:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see shepazu, Lachy, dino, ChrisL, fantasai, szilles, Zakim, RRSAgent, glazou, Bert, plinss_, anne, plinss, hsivonen, trackbot, jdaggett, krijnh, Hixie
  218. # [19:11] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  219. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  220. # [19:11] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-2009
  221. # [19:11] <Zakim> - +1.858.354.aaaa
  222. # [19:11] <szilles> RESOLVED: "::' Selector is removed from Selectors 3
  223. # [19:11] <Zakim> -dino
  224. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glazou
  225. # [19:11] <szilles> RRSagent: make minutes
  226. # [19:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-css-minutes.html szilles
  227. # [19:11] <fantasai> s/::' Selector/::selection/
  228. # [19:11] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
  229. # [19:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-css-minutes.html fantasai
  230. # [19:12] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  231. # [19:12] <Zakim> -Bert
  232. # [19:12] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  233. # [19:12] <Zakim> -??P50
  234. # [19:12] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  235. # [19:12] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, +95089aabb, glazou, SteveZ, Bert, ChrisL, +1.408.454.aacc, dino, sylvaing, arronei, [IPcaller]
  236. # [19:13] * Quits: dino (dino@59.167.41.206) (Quit: dino)
  237. # [19:21] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122])
  238. # [20:05] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  239. # [20:28] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  240. # [20:28] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-css-irc#T19-26-07
  241. # [20:28] * Quits: fantasai (fantasai@71.138.141.152) (Quit: Lost terminal)
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  245. # [21:31] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  246. # [21:31] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
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  248. # [22:31] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
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  253. # Session Close: Thu Feb 05 00:00:00 2009

The end :)