/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-02-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 11 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:05] <Hixie> dino: anne told me yesterday that he expected to get back to it around 2015
  4. # [00:06] * dino sets up a reminder in iCal for that date
  5. # [00:06] <dino> Hixie: i was looking at implementing the part that evaluates media queries
  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> cool
  7. # [00:07] <dino> also, we have some page <-> node point conversion things to do with transforms
  8. # [00:07] <dino> at the moment they are custom to webkit
  9. # [00:07] <dino> but it would be better to have cssom-view do it
  10. # [00:08] <Hixie> i have a whole bunch of stuff pending on cssom-view
  11. # [00:09] <Hixie> alternative style sheets, window.media, etc
  12. # [00:09] <dino> well, what are you waiting for??????
  13. # [00:11] <Hixie> i'm waiting to be done with html5 :-)
  14. # [00:14] <dino> Hixie: we've run into some problems with the Media API and progress events. I think Eric is going to send in an email.
  15. # [00:14] <Hixie> k
  16. # [00:43] <fantasai> anne: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Namespace/current/
  17. # [01:05] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: shepazu)
  18. # [02:52] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  19. # [03:29] * Quits: fantasai (fantasai@63.245.220.230) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  20. # [06:17] * Quits: dbaron_ (dbaron@63.245.220.246) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  21. # [06:45] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  22. # [07:05] <Hixie> Does a <div> match :active while it's being clicked?
  23. # [07:05] <Hixie> or is this something I should specify in HTML5?
  24. # [07:05] <Hixie> on a per-element basis
  25. # [08:44] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Ping timeout)
  26. # [08:58] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.191.119.20)
  27. # [09:47] <anne> dino, most of what's in the draft should be stable
  28. # [09:48] <anne> dino, and I might try to push the current draft out as LC at some point, but work on new features won't be done until CORS, XHR, and XHR2 are more finished
  29. # [13:32] * Quits: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
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  31. # [13:35] * Quits: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  32. # [13:35] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
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  34. # [13:36] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  35. # [17:36] * Joins: jdaggett_ (jdaggett@114.181.171.200)
  36. # [17:41] * jdaggett_ is now known as jdaggettSleepy
  37. # [17:53] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  38. # [17:54] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  39. # [17:54] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  40. # [17:54] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-css-irc
  41. # [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  42. # [17:54] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
  43. # [17:55] <glazou> hmmm belgian chocolate
  44. # [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  45. # [17:56] <Zakim> +glazou
  46. # [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaaa
  47. # [17:58] <anne> I'm afraid that I'll be delayed. I might make it the second half of the meeting.
  48. # [17:58] <glazou> ok anne
  49. # [17:58] * Joins: dsinger (mobile@67.218.110.231)
  50. # [17:58] <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
  51. # [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  52. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is dsinger
  53. # [17:59] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  54. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, mute dsinger
  55. # [17:59] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  56. # [17:59] <dsinger> Thx
  57. # [18:00] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
  58. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.415.738.aabb
  59. # [18:00] * Parts: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  60. # [18:00] <jdaggettSleepy> +1.415 is jdaggettSleepy
  61. # [18:01] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  62. # [18:01] <jdaggettSleepy> zakim: +1.415 is jdaggettSleepy
  63. # [18:01] <jdaggettSleepy> Zakim, aabb is jdaggettSleepy
  64. # [18:01] <Zakim> +jdaggettSleepy; got it
  65. # [18:02] <dsinger> 3 colors? Here, regret, absent?
  66. # [18:02] <glazou> yes
  67. # [18:03] <glazou> exactly
  68. # [18:03] <glazou> red, blue (regrets), green
  69. # [18:04] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.69)
  70. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Bert
  71. # [18:05] * Bert waited a long time for zakim to pick up the phone today... Usual is just one ring.
  72. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P34
  73. # [18:06] <dsinger> Was immediate for me...
  74. # [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  75. # [18:08] <ChrisL> zakim, pick a victim
  76. # [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jdaggettSleepy
  77. # [18:08] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@71.138.141.152)
  78. # [18:09] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  79. # [18:09] * Bert remembers having a computer crash about 10 mins into the call last week, so may not acually show up on IRC that day...
  80. # [18:09] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  81. # [18:09] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-css-irc#T17-06-55
  82. # [18:09] <fantasai> Daniel: Two extra agenda items
  83. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  84. # [18:09] <fantasai> Daniel: First is a request from Apple to publish their new drafts
  85. # [18:09] <fantasai> Daniel: Second is a suggestion from Bert to publish a new CR
  86. # [18:09] <fantasai> Daniel: of CSS2.1
  87. # [18:10] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0063.html
  88. # [18:10] <fantasai> Daniel: Falls into agenda item for publication of LC for Selectors and css3-background
  89. # [18:10] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.71)
  90. # [18:10] <fantasai> Daniel summarizes what the Normalization issue is
  91. # [18:10] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  92. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: In Unicode there are multiple codepoint combinations that will result in the same logical character
  93. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: For example, if I type e+acute on Mac and on Win, they do not necessarily match
  94. # [18:11] <fantasai> Daniel: The issue is important enough that we should know what to do
  95. # [18:12] <fantasai> Daniel: I have an example of the style sheet being provided on the Mac, and the HTML being written on a Windows machine
  96. # [18:12] <fantasai> Daniel: I have to note that normalizing to NFC or NFD is not a real issue
  97. # [18:12] <fantasai> Daniel: Richard Ishida published a script on his blog that does this
  98. # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: it's in a lot of libraries
  99. # [18:12] <fantasai> Daniel: I definitely agree this is an issue related to OS and input methods
  100. # [18:13] <fantasai> Daniel: But since these won't be fixed soon, it's the browser's task
  101. # [18:13] <fantasai> Daniel: I don't think the user should know anything about it
  102. # [18:13] <fantasai> Daniel: So I agree we should defer the publication of Selectors
  103. # [18:13] <fantasai> Daniel: What about css3-background?
  104. # [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: There have been a few issues that came up recently
  105. # [18:15] <jdaggettSleepy> Zakim, mute me
  106. # [18:15] <Zakim> jdaggettSleepy should now be muted
  107. # [18:15] <fantasai> Zakim: who is here?
  108. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: One is that people on the mailing list objected to our resolution that box-shadow doesn't get suppressed by border-image
  109. # [18:15] <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
  110. # [18:15] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, dsinger (muted), jdaggettSleepy (muted), ChrisL, Bert, ??P34, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
  111. # [18:15] <Zakim> On IRC I see szilles, sylvaing, fantasai, arronei, ChrisL, dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, jdaggettSleepy, myakura, shepazu, dino, Lachy, trackbot, timeless, jdaggett, krijnh,
  112. # [18:15] <Zakim> ... Bert, plinss, hsivonen, Hixie
  113. # [18:15] <fantasai> fantasai: Another is whether the 'border' shorthand should suppress border-image
  114. # [18:16] <jdaggettSleepy> Zakim, unmute me
  115. # [18:16] <Zakim> jdaggettSleepy should no longer be muted
  116. # [18:16] <fantasai> Daniel: Back to Apple's drafts. Has anyone had a chance to review them?
  117. # [18:16] <dsinger> Zakim, unmute me
  118. # [18:16] <Zakim> dsinger should no longer be muted
  119. # [18:16] <fantasai> Daniel: I suggest to defer this agenda item to next week
  120. # [18:17] <fantasai> Daniel: Ask everyone to review them and come with an opinion next week about whether we should publish these drafts
  121. # [18:17] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  122. # [18:17] <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
  123. # [18:17] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  124. # [18:17] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  125. # [18:18] <fantasai> Daniel: Last sub-item is about releasing a new CR of CSS2.1
  126. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: I think I have edited all the things that we decided on editing
  127. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: There are a few open issues
  128. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: It's been a year and a half since we published
  129. # [18:18] * Quits: dsinger (mobile@67.218.110.231) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
  130. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: I think it's about time we published a new version
  131. # [18:18] * dbaron is sorry for being late... hurt his back a few minutes ago and needed to lie down for 20 minutes
  132. # [18:18] <glazou> np dbaron
  133. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: I agree we should publish, but there were a few missed edits
  134. # [18:19] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish new CR of CSS2.1 once edits have been reviewed and completed
  135. # [18:20] <jdaggettSleepy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0077.html
  136. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: Let me post the URL to David's original post
  137. # [18:20] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  138. # [18:20] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  139. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: THis post is rather long, and there are three items in it.
  140. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: The first one, I think everyone agrees that that makes sense
  141. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you have two descriptors within an @font-face rule, the second descriptor overrides
  142. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: The second and third items are more of an issue
  143. # [18:20] <fantasai> jdaggett: The second item is for the src descriptor, whether the src descriptor implies load behavior
  144. # [18:21] <fantasai> jdaggett: or whether it implies both load behavior and font fallback
  145. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: I got the example in that message backwards
  146. # [18:21] <jdaggettSleepy> example
  147. # [18:21] <jdaggettSleepy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0290.html
  148. # [18:21] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aacc
  149. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: The idea with the load behavior is, for example, if you have local FontA and local FontB
  150. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: you only load the first one that you actually find
  151. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: or if you have a URL with a specific font resource
  152. # [18:22] <fantasai> jdaggett: once you find something and successfully load it, you ignore the items that are to the right of that in the src list
  153. # [18:22] <dbaron> Zakim, aacc is howcome
  154. # [18:22] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  155. # [18:22] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  156. # [18:23] <fantasai> chrisl: I think that's consistent with the original idea, where you had multiple formats for different platforms
  157. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: That makes sense, but there were some people who suggested that fallbacks was a more CSS-like way to handle it
  158. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: ... For example, if you include on the Mac an Arabic font, followed by an OpenType face
  159. # [18:23] <fantasai> jdaggett: On the Mac you'd have to load both
  160. # [18:23] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  161. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: I don't think there was a lot of controversy around that
  162. # [18:24] <glazou> wb dsinger
  163. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think what was more controversial was item 3
  164. # [18:24] <Zakim> -dsinger
  165. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: It was more related to how the Unicode-range descriptor works
  166. # [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] hs dsinger
  167. # [18:24] <Zakim> I don't understand '[apple] hs dsinger', dsinger
  168. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: although that's not totally clear from the original example
  169. # [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  170. # [18:24] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  171. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: Example is, if you have 2 font-face rules that only differ in their src descriptor
  172. # [18:24] <fantasai> jdaggett: whether the second rule overrides the first
  173. # [18:24] <fantasai> chrisl: No, it should add to it
  174. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: The problem with this example is that there's unicode-range with the full range
  175. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: now, the interesting thing is, how WebKit implemented unicode-range
  176. # [18:25] <ChrisL> q+ to talk about composite fonts and unicode-range
  177. # [18:25] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  178. # [18:25] <fantasai> jdaggett: Unicode-range is seen as the range specified intersected with the actual character map of the font
  179. # [18:26] <ChrisL> The character map for a downloaded font is the intersection of the unicode-range value, U+0-7FFFFFFF by default, and the actual character map contained in the font data. This is WebKit latest behavior.
  180. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: So effectively if you're to have these two rules, from dbaron's original posting, you would have a font that would first try to load b.ttf
  181. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: but if it couldn't find a specific character in b.ttf, it would fall back to a.ttf
  182. # [18:26] <ChrisL> q?
  183. # [18:26] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  184. # [18:26] <fantasai> jdaggett: That's simply in the subtle way that unicode-range is defined in WebKit
  185. # [18:27] <fantasai> ?: Is that the same as src: a.ttf, b.ttf; ?
  186. # [18:27] <fantasai> jdaggett: No, that would only load the first one
  187. # [18:27] * Joins: anne (annevk@85.196.122.246)
  188. # [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone
  189. # [18:27] * Zakim I don't understand 'who is on the phone', dbaron
  190. # [18:27] <glazou> ? is sylvaing
  191. # [18:27] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  192. # [18:27] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, jdaggettSleepy, ChrisL, Bert, ??P34, SteveZ, [Microsoft], David_Baron, howcome, [Apple]
  193. # [18:27] * Zakim [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  194. # [18:27] * Zakim [Apple] has dsinger
  195. # [18:27] <fantasai> ChrisL: I wanted to talk a little about the history here
  196. # [18:27] <fantasai> ChrisL: I gave a talk at Unicode about Fonts
  197. # [18:27] <fantasai> ChrisL: Someone passed me a note
  198. # [18:28] <fantasai> ChrisL: and he said afterward, Very nice talk, but I think you should be able to combine multiple fonts into a single composite font.
  199. # [18:28] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  200. # [18:28] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  201. # [18:28] <glazou> 78053
  202. # [18:28] <glazou> 78953 sorry
  203. # [18:28] <fantasai> ChrisL: I asked him if he had a card, and he said yes. It said Donald Knuth.
  204. # [18:28] <ChrisL> Donald Knuth was the person asking for composite font support
  205. # [18:28] <fantasai> howcome: John, do you have something specced out that you are comfortable with?
  206. # [18:28] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  207. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett: Yes
  208. # [18:28] <anne> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
  209. # [18:28] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  210. # [18:28] <glazou> hi anne
  211. # [18:28] * anne waves :)
  212. # [18:29] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  213. # [18:29] <dbaron> anne, we're getting noise from you
  214. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: The current Editor's Draft defines the src descriptor to specify the load behavior
  215. # [18:29] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (4%), jdaggettSleepy (15%), howcome (60%), ChrisL (5%), anne (39%)
  216. # [18:29] * anne will be in Tokyo; is now locally muted
  217. # [18:29] <fantasai> howcome: Is this compatible with Prince's current behavior?
  218. # [18:29] * glazou thx anne
  219. # [18:29] <fantasai> jdaggett: Prince's behavior gets into the behavior of local(), which I don't necessarily agree here
  220. # [18:29] <fantasai> howcome: There is an implementation there...
  221. # [18:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: I don't think it behaves in a clear and ... way
  222. # [18:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: Basically, this boils down to the compounding behavior of unicode-range
  223. # [18:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: and the way it combines is very subtle
  224. # [18:30] <fantasai> ChrisL: I think the way you have it in the spec is very good
  225. # [18:30] <fantasai> jdaggett: It makes the simple cases easy, and the complex cases possible
  226. # [18:31] <fantasai> howcome: So you can effect Prince's behavior by just changing the syntax?
  227. # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: Yes.
  228. # [18:31] <fantasai> howcome: But it's more complex syntax
  229. # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: Yes.
  230. # [18:31] <arronei> bcz
  231. # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: Michael wants the family name to be the ?? name
  232. # [18:31] <arronei> oops...
  233. # [18:31] <fantasai> jdaggett: that a single descriptor describes a single face, not a single family
  234. # [18:32] <Bert> (I prefer: (1) take only the first available resource from the 'src' list; (2) make composite fonts from multiple @font-face rules with same font-* descriptors based on unicode-range; (3) handle fallbacks with the normal 'font-family' proeprty.)
  235. # [18:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: I think it would be better to have Michael here, I can't really defend his idea.
  236. # [18:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: If you go back to the thread, if you concatenate all those you'll get the gist of what the argument is
  237. # [18:32] <fantasai> howcome: You're saying that your current Editor's Draft reflects your stand?
  238. # [18:32] <fantasai> jdaggett: yes
  239. # [18:34] <fantasai> jdaggett matches the currently-specced behavior to answers to dbaron's questions, but I didn't catch exactly how
  240. # [18:34] <fantasai> jdaggett: At the F2F we could go into more detail.
  241. # [18:34] <fantasai> howcome: Can we get Michael to call in, would that be possible?
  242. # [18:34] <fantasai> SteveZ: I have one question. Can we get some use cases which help elucidate these things?
  243. # [18:34] <fantasai> jdaggett: Sure. The spec has some, but it could use more.
  244. # [18:35] <fantasai> ChrisL: The classic example is, you have a Japanese font that has bad Latin, and you have a font which is good Latin
  245. # [18:35] * dbaron steps away for a minute
  246. # [18:35] <fantasai> ChrisL: But the Latin font has bad kana
  247. # [18:35] <fantasai> ChrisL: so you have to use unicode-range, simple fallback isn't enough
  248. # [18:36] <fantasai> SteveZ: Why is ???
  249. # [18:36] <fantasai> jdaggett: Because in this case unicode-range is implied
  250. # [18:36] <glazou> s/???/2 the solution is item 3
  251. # [18:36] <fantasai> jdaggett: The subtle way this works, the actual unicode-range used is the intersection of the unicode-range described in the @font-face rule and the actual range of characters in the character map of the font
  252. # [18:37] <fantasai> SteveZ: I need to study this more, but at least this tells me what to look at.
  253. # [18:37] <fantasai> Daniel: I suggest we stop the discussion here and continue in Tokyo
  254. # [18:37] <fantasai> Daniel: Thank you for attending the conf call in the middle of the night
  255. # [18:37] <fantasai> Daniel: Next agenda item
  256. # [18:37] <fantasai> Topic: Armenian
  257. # [18:38] <fantasai> Daniel: Next item, armenian numbering
  258. # [18:38] <fantasai> Daniel: It seems Armenian works like lower-roman and upper-roman. You can use upper-armenian or lower-armenian.
  259. # [18:38] <fantasai> Daniel: 'armenian' shouldn't exist
  260. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: but it's a value in 2.1, and it's implemented alread
  261. # [18:39] <fantasai> y
  262. # [18:39] <ChrisL> zakim, who is talking?
  263. # [18:39] <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (85%), jdaggettSleepy (5%), anne (30%)
  264. # [18:39] <ChrisL> zakim, mute anne
  265. # [18:39] <Zakim> anne should now be muted
  266. # [18:39] <jdaggettSleepy> Zakim, mute me
  267. # [18:39] <Zakim> jdaggettSleepy should now be muted
  268. # [18:39] <fantasai> Daniel: It's really difficult to make a choice
  269. # [18:40] * dbaron is back
  270. # [18:40] <fantasai> fantasai: Richard looked into what implementations do, and they use upper case
  271. # [18:40] * anne wonders why local mute was not enough
  272. # [18:40] <fantasai> Daniel: The most common case seems to be lower-armenian
  273. # [18:40] * sylvaing thinks anne's psychic powers are too strong for the phone system
  274. # [18:41] <fantasai> fantasai: But is it worth breaking compatibility?
  275. # [18:41] <fantasai> Sylvain: We talked to a few Armenian developers and they didn't have a strong opinion either way
  276. # [18:42] <fantasai> Daniel: I will ping the Armenian embassy in paris
  277. # [18:42] <fantasai> fantasai: we have feedback from an Armenian typographer already
  278. # [18:43] * anne :)
  279. # [18:46] <fantasai> fantasai quotes from Richard's text
  280. # [18:46] <fantasai> Daniel wants to ask someone before making a decision
  281. # [18:46] <fantasai> SteveZ: First thing, asking random people will give you random feedback
  282. # [18:47] <fantasai> SteveZ: Second, who would give you reliable feedback? I don't think the Armenian embassy would be a good place to look
  283. # [18:47] <fantasai> ChrisL: You're looking for the Armenian equivalent of ??? Nationale
  284. # [18:47] <sylvaing> "Imprimerie Nationale"
  285. # [18:47] <fantasai> howcome: Maybe you're looking for something that doesn't exist
  286. # [18:47] <ChrisL> s/???/Imprimerie/
  287. # [18:47] <dsinger> ? http://translations.com/_Armenian_website_globalization.html
  288. # [18:49] <fantasai> Daniel: Give me a few days.
  289. # [18:49] <anne> fantasai: locale does not matter
  290. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: Ask also whether it would be worth changing existing implementations and the expectation of any authors who are already using armenian numbering
  291. # [18:50] <dsinger> I want Nagorno-Karabakhish numbering
  292. # [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: This isn't a locale issue, you only get Armenian numbering if you ask for it with list-style-type
  293. # [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: And right now authors are getting upper-armenian
  294. # [18:51] <sylvaing> Resolution 1.0
  295. # [18:51] <fantasai> TENTATIVE RESOLUTION: armenian maps to upper-armenian
  296. # [18:51] <fantasai> PENDING: Daniel's investigation report
  297. # [18:51] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
  298. # [18:52] <fantasai> We have Issue 84
  299. # [18:52] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-84
  300. # [18:53] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0082.html
  301. # [18:53] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0082.html
  302. # [18:53] <fantasai> Sylvain: I'm ok with it, I'm asking Arron if he's ok with it
  303. # [18:54] <fantasai> Bert: I think that's good enough for CSS2.1. Might be more precise in level 3
  304. # [18:54] <dbaron> it should say "zero width space" rather than "zero with space"
  305. # [18:54] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accepted with dbaron's spelling correction
  306. # [18:56] <anne> I'll just say it here because my Skype account seems hear-only
  307. # [18:56] <fantasai> fantasai: I'd like to get an idea of what people think of Normalization for Selectors
  308. # [18:56] <anne> Opera strongly supports what David just said
  309. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't want normalization at each API layer
  310. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: I want normalization at a much more general layer
  311. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: Like normalizing on input
  312. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: when you do the character encoding step
  313. # [18:57] <anne> Though I'm concerned that doing normalization of XML, HTML, etc. at this point will break existing scripts
  314. # [18:57] <fantasai> dbaron: The issue isn't just with CSS
  315. # [18:58] <anne> s/I'm/we're/ (guess it's better to stay consistent)
  316. # [18:58] <fantasai> Daniel: My concern is that users shouldn't have to worry about this issue
  317. # [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: For Selectors, perhaps we could treat it like case-sensitivity
  318. # [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: Let it be defined by the document language
  319. # [19:00] <fantasai> Daniel, Bert, dbaron: I don't think it's the same thing
  320. # [19:00] <fantasai> Bert: You can see the case
  321. # [19:01] <fantasai> dbaron: Sometimes the unnormalizable characters are excluded from nmchars
  322. # [19:02] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  323. # [19:02] <anne> So nobody heard me? :/ I was saying that for e.g. XML it is the same thing. XML does not make a difference between NFC and NFD (XML parsers don't at least). Same goes for ECMAScript and HTML at this point
  324. # [19:03] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute anne
  325. # [19:03] <Zakim> anne should no longer be muted
  326. # [19:03] <fantasai> anne, isn't that the opposite of what you said on the ml?
  327. # [19:03] <dsinger> silence...
  328. # [19:03] <dbaron> anne, you need to unmute your phone too
  329. # [19:03] <anne> I did :/
  330. # [19:03] <dsinger> and talk
  331. # [19:03] <sylvaing> it's a complex protocol
  332. # [19:03] <anne> I did ;)
  333. # [19:03] <sylvaing> too many dependencies
  334. # [19:04] <anne> that's true glazou :)
  335. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  336. # [19:04] <Zakim> -jdaggettSleepy
  337. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  338. # [19:04] <Zakim> -howcome
  339. # [19:04] <dsinger> bye
  340. # [19:04] <glazou> bye
  341. # [19:04] * fantasai concludes that Selectors will never progress
  342. # [19:04] <ChrisL> and switch off your torrents
  343. # [19:04] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  344. # [19:04] <Zakim> -??P34
  345. # [19:04] <glazou> fantasai: oh come on
  346. # [19:04] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  347. # [19:04] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  348. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert
  349. # [19:05] * Quits: jdaggettSleepy (jdaggett@114.181.171.200) (Quit: jdaggettSleepy)
  350. # [19:05] <anne> fantasai, Selectors needs to be able to match both NFC and NFD XML IDs and XML documents that use both, imo
  351. # [19:05] <glazou> yes
  352. # [19:05] <glazou> so to match both, you need to normalize to one of them
  353. # [19:05] <glazou> and match
  354. # [19:06] <anne> then you make two IDs equal that might be different
  355. # [19:06] <fantasai> anne: Does XML match an NFC start tag with an NFD end tag?
  356. # [19:06] <glazou> no
  357. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  358. # [19:06] <glazou> composition(e, acute) == é
  359. # [19:06] <anne> fantasai, nope, it's based on codepoints, not Unicode characters
  360. # [19:06] <glazou> that's the same for authors
  361. # [19:06] <anne> but not the same in XML
  362. # [19:07] <anne> or ECMAScript or HTML or CSS at this point
  363. # [19:07] <glazou> anne, if a user inputs an attribute value
  364. # [19:07] <glazou> set by JS
  365. # [19:07] <glazou> how do you make the difference ?
  366. # [19:07] <glazou> user types composition(e, acute), ends up in class attr
  367. # [19:08] <glazou> and stylesheet uses class .é
  368. # [19:08] <glazou> ?
  369. # [19:08] <glazou> then the page has to normalize ???
  370. # [19:08] <anne> i'm not sure it's a matter of me making a difference, it's a matter of the specs dictating that no normalization happens
  371. # [19:08] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.71) (Ping timeout)
  372. # [19:08] <fantasai> I conclude that we should publish LC ignoring the normalization issue so at least we have an updated draft for the next year while i18n and the browser vendors debate the relative merits of this or that normalization scheme
  373. # [19:08] <anne> yeah, that sounds fine to me
  374. # [19:09] <anne> we can add authoring advice just like XML and ECMAScript did though
  375. # [19:09] <fantasai> good idea
  376. # [19:09] <anne> that recommends that authors always write CSS and host languages in NFC
  377. # [19:09] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  378. # [19:09] <glazou> you cannot request that
  379. # [19:09] <glazou> authos now nothing about normalization
  380. # [19:09] <anne> if that works for XML, it should be good enough for CSS too, and validators can flag it
  381. # [19:09] <anne> authors no nothing about encoding either
  382. # [19:10] <anne> s/no/know/
  383. # [19:10] <Zakim> -anne
  384. # [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  385. # [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +1.408.398.aaaa, dsinger, +1.415.738.aabb, ChrisL, jdaggettSleepy, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, +47.21.65.aacc, howcome, anne
  386. # [19:18] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  387. # [19:19] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.75)
  388. # [19:20] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.191.119.20) (Quit: Leaving...)
  389. # [19:26] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  390. # [19:29] * Quits: fantasai (fantasai@71.138.141.152) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  391. # [19:58] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.246)
  392. # [21:11] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  393. # [21:11] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  394. # [21:13] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@71.138.141.152)
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  403. # [23:30] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200) (Client exited)
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  405. # Session Close: Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)