/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-03-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  19. # [01:32] <ChrisL> trackbot,start telcon
  20. # [01:32] <ChrisL> trackbot, start telcon
  21. # [01:32] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  22. # [01:32] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  23. # [01:32] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/06-css-irc
  24. # [01:32] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
  25. # [01:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  26. # [01:32] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  27. # [01:32] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be Style_CSS FP
  28. # [01:32] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
  29. # [01:32] <trackbot> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
  30. # [01:32] <trackbot> Date: 05 March 2009
  31. # [01:32] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  32. # [01:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  33. # [01:32] <ChrisL> Meeting; CSS f2f Tokyo
  34. # [01:32] <ChrisL> Chair: Chris
  35. # [01:33] <ChrisL> zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go home
  36. # [01:33] <Zakim> ok, ChrisL
  37. # [01:33] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  38. # [01:34] <jdaggett> http://people.mozilla.org/~jdaggett/mplustest.html
  39. # [01:39] <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
  40. # [01:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
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  42. # [01:40] <anne> RRSAgent, spans midnight
  43. # [01:40] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'spans midnight', anne. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  44. # [01:40] <anne> scribe: anne
  45. # [01:40] <anne> Topic: font-weight
  46. # [01:41] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  47. # [01:41] <anne> JD: In Cambridge we discussed bolder and lighter
  48. # [01:41] <jdaggett> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/61
  49. # [01:42] <anne> JD: It's a frustrating discussion, because of platform restrictions and lack of [cool] fonts
  50. # [01:43] <anne> JD: m+ (Japanese Open Source font) supports seven weights
  51. # [01:43] <anne> JD: 300 is equal to 200, 700 is equal to 600
  52. # [01:47] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78) (Ping timeout)
  53. # [01:48] <anne> JD: the issue in Cambridge was, given a line of text, given font fallback, multiple fonts can be used, then with nested elements with bolder, bolder, bolder, what should happen?
  54. # [01:49] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  55. # [01:49] <anne> CL: if you have a value already from an inherited context [... scribe missed ...]
  56. # [01:49] <anne> JD: where do you make the determination?
  57. # [01:50] <anne> JD: am I simply doing incremental steps of boldness or am I picking a font somehow and resolving the calculation at that point
  58. # [01:50] <anne> JD: of course the computed value comes in because it becomes funny
  59. # [01:51] <anne> DB: computed value can be 1) just a weight, 2) a pair of a weight and a number (number indicates times bolder written), 3) a weight plus a sequence of bolder/lighter steps
  60. # [01:52] <anne> SZ: when I say bolder and there are at least two weights in the font, I'm at the lighter of the two, I'm in a span that has a bolder, what should I expect?
  61. # [01:52] <anne> JD: euh, the bolder one
  62. # [01:52] <anne> SZ: it changes the number
  63. # [01:52] <anne> JD: BB proposed that you calculate a number based on the first font
  64. # [01:53] <anne> JD: the reason I brought up m+ is that there a number of gotchas with that
  65. # [01:53] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78) (Client exited)
  66. # [01:53] <anne> JD: [missed]
  67. # [01:53] <ChrisL> (Chris demonstrates some tests with ZalamanderCaps, a font with six weights)
  68. # [01:53] <anne> JD: if I say my body is 400 and I go to bolder
  69. # [01:54] <anne> JD: then you get 500, but then if you have a fallback font that has 400 and 700 you end up with 400 again
  70. # [01:55] <anne> JD: in this world, most fonts are 400/700
  71. # [01:55] <anne> JD: I suggest we simply iterate through 100/400/700/900 for bolder/lighter
  72. # [01:56] <anne> HL: you can still use the absolute values if you really know things
  73. # [01:56] <anne> HL: this is just for the relatives
  74. # [01:56] <anne> CL: good point
  75. # [01:57] <anne> SZ: there are some 400/600
  76. # [01:57] <anne> JD: I don't know of those, Japan has some 300/600
  77. # [01:57] <ChrisL> not so worried if its just the relatives. As long as higher quality results are not excluded
  78. # [01:57] <anne> JD: will still do the right thing
  79. # [01:57] <anne> HL: is the rounding defined?
  80. # [01:57] <anne> JD: yes
  81. # [01:57] <anne> HL: sounds reasonable
  82. # [01:57] <anne> JD: you get a consistent computed value
  83. # [01:58] <ChrisL> wights in zalamander:
  84. # [01:58] <ChrisL> ultrabold 800
  85. # [01:58] <ChrisL> bold 700
  86. # [01:58] <ChrisL> semibold 600
  87. # [01:58] <ChrisL> regular 400
  88. # [01:58] <ChrisL> light 300
  89. # [01:58] <ChrisL> extralight 250
  90. # [01:58] <anne> SZ: IH's distinction goes away, right?
  91. # [01:58] <anne> DB: yes
  92. # [01:58] <anne> DB: this probably addresses the use case for bolder/lighter better and is much simpler
  93. # [01:58] <anne> [humming]
  94. # [01:59] <ChrisL> critical difference is that you can do bolder/lighter without knowing the current font family
  95. # [01:59] <anne> JD: I will write this out
  96. # [01:59] <anne> DB: I think you might want to ping DH directly
  97. # [01:59] <anne> DB: I think Opera might do that as well
  98. # [02:00] <anne> DB: they basically maintain a sequence of +ses and -ses
  99. # [02:00] <anne> [discussion about IH's test and the complexity of the model]
  100. # [02:00] <anne> CL: might be useful to make duplicate test with different fonts
  101. # [02:01] <anne> JD: In some of the edits made by the other editors they wanted to allow non-multiples of a 100
  102. # [02:01] <ChrisL> agree that weights cannot be compared over families
  103. # [02:01] <anne> JD: 600 in one font vs 650 in another font is not noticable
  104. # [02:02] <ChrisL> s/noticable/consistent/
  105. # [02:02] <anne> SZ: the relatives are not for people who care about typography
  106. # [02:03] <anne> [scribe notes they are also for default style of elements]
  107. # [02:03] <anne> DB: I don't think authors know the difference between bold and bolder or think bolder is more bold than bold
  108. # [02:03] <anne> [joke about adding boldest]
  109. # [02:04] <anne> JD: I made a post to www-style
  110. # [02:04] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  111. # [02:04] <anne> JD: in response to "CSS font selection is broken" (not exact subject)
  112. # [02:04] <anne> JD: the way things work on Linux/Windows is unfortunate
  113. # [02:04] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0041.html
  114. # [02:05] <anne> [people are quoting from the e-mail]
  115. # [02:05] <ChrisL> Thomas Phinney's arguments are good but his conclusion does not follow from his arguments
  116. # [02:05] <anne> [JD is performing a recap of the e-mail on the whiteboard]
  117. # [02:07] <ChrisL> jd: in opentype, font family can have platform-specific variations - localisations, and windows/mac variations so the semantics are platform dependent
  118. # [02:08] <ChrisL> ... hence Arial and Arial Black, two families on windows and one family on mac
  119. # [02:08] <ChrisL> ... thus MS have a "preferred family" but CSS only allows selecting by slope, width and weight
  120. # [02:09] <ChrisL> s/slope/style/
  121. # [02:09] <ChrisL> ... opentype 1.5 has wwsfamily
  122. # [02:12] <ChrisL> wpf has a hash table classification of *known* fonts (only)
  123. # [02:13] <anne> DB: If I and JD disagree JD is right
  124. # [02:14] <anne> JD: there is a possibility in the future that Microsoft might ship fonts with broader families
  125. # [02:14] <anne> CL: everyone with a photoshop will have a certain set of fonts and communities around photoshop will start using them, etc.
  126. # [02:16] * anne fails
  127. # [02:16] <anne> SZ: [missed]
  128. # [02:16] <anne> JD: the first point is that we don't define what a given name maps to on a given platform
  129. # [02:16] <anne> JD: on any given platform there will be plethora of different font formats
  130. # [02:16] <anne> JD: but we can give guidelines
  131. # [02:16] <anne> JD: for OT/TT we suggest that you do certain things
  132. # [02:17] <anne> SZ: the important part for me was that it's an abstraction, not a direct
  133. # [02:17] <anne> JD: we can suggest a path to goodness
  134. # [02:17] <anne> JD: I disagree with your second point
  135. # [02:17] <anne> JD: with the exception of optical size I don't see a lot of variations even within Adobe families that somehow would be helped with this
  136. # [02:18] <anne> JD: I'm a little sceptical even with optical size
  137. # [02:18] <anne> SZ: I understand... in some magical way...
  138. # [02:18] <anne> JD: the flipside of this, after the break I want to talk about the specifics of the @font-face mechanism and local faces
  139. # [02:18] <anne> JD: via that mechanism you can separate things out...
  140. # [02:19] <anne> ... it's going to be so rare; there will be font foundries that define fonts with their own set of axis
  141. # [02:19] <anne> ... ... the only thing that we can do is that we put in some kind of string that we can somehow match against the style name
  142. # [02:19] <anne> ... which is suicide
  143. # [02:19] <anne> ... localization issues, semantics could change, accidental matching
  144. # [02:20] <anne> ... using local with the default name is a much more robust mechanism
  145. # [02:20] <anne> ... let's take a break and then talk about @font-face
  146. # [02:20] <anne> HL: comments from MS?
  147. # [02:21] <anne> SG: no, I don't work with the Windows team on fonts, but with IE
  148. # [02:21] <anne> SG: and there's a huge back compat
  149. # [02:53] <anne> Topic: @font-face
  150. # [02:53] <dbaron> JD: in css3-fonts, descriptors now have default values
  151. # [02:53] <anne> JD: two @font-face rules defined; normal and bold
  152. # [02:54] <anne> JD: I'm not implying this [see whiteboard photo if someone makes one] is a use case
  153. # [02:54] <anne> CL: I think it is
  154. # [02:55] <anne> JD: there is no way to have a magic attribute that sucks in a bunch of fonts
  155. # [02:55] <anne> JD: MD wants font aliasing
  156. # [02:56] <anne> JD: what I'm saying is that essentially having a variable that equals a bunch of fonts
  157. # [02:56] <anne> JD: is not a good way to do things
  158. # [02:56] <anne> JD: if you want Arial to be just like Helvetica you'd have to enumerate the four faces
  159. # [02:56] <ChrisL> _DSC2181
  160. # [02:57] <anne> [discussiong about MD's proposal]
  161. # [02:58] <ChrisL> JD proposes @font-alias to group font families
  162. # [02:59] <ChrisL> _DSC2182
  163. # [02:59] * anne wonders if he should attempt to minute
  164. # [02:59] * anne decides to minute the outcome
  165. # [03:00] <ChrisL> JD asserts that mixing complete families and individual faces gives ambiguity
  166. # [03:01] <ChrisL> cl: to point into a zip file with multiple faces you would want a fragment identifier to index into the zipfile
  167. # [03:02] * Quits: shinyu (shinyu@124.26.216.70) (Quit: See you...)
  168. # [03:04] <ChrisL> cl: @font-face is designed to point to a face (and give info about it) not to a family
  169. # [03:05] <anne> HL: just to try to connect here, can we put @font-alias into a draft
  170. # [03:05] <anne> JD: there is a variable proposal, which would do exactly that
  171. # [03:06] <anne> HL: not clear whether that will make it and it's far more complex
  172. # [03:06] <anne> HL: I think @font-alias is just for browser style sheets
  173. # [03:06] <anne> [scribe things the CSSWG should not add features just for browser style sheets]
  174. # [03:06] <anne> s/things/thinks/
  175. # [03:07] <anne> JD: I think it is useful for author style sheets too
  176. # [03:07] <anne> JD: so you don't have to write everything out
  177. # [03:08] <anne> HL: if we see font families expand @font-alias might be useful, but I don't want authors to have to use this
  178. # [03:08] <ChrisL> hl: we are seeing font families expand so we need to be able to do this
  179. # [03:08] <ChrisL> jd: so @font-alias gives a convenient shorthand
  180. # [03:08] * Zakim ChrisL, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  181. # [03:08] <anne> JD: with large corperations that use lots of fonts and if they are doing things cross platform you need to use a lot of fonts
  182. # [03:09] <anne> AvK: is font-family the only property it takes?
  183. # [03:10] <anne> [simplifying syntax]
  184. # [03:11] <anne> @font-alias "my font" "test", "test", "test";
  185. # [03:12] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  186. # [03:14] <anne> [discussion about parsing rules for font-family]
  187. # [03:14] <ChrisL> trackbot, status?
  188. # [03:14] * trackbot knows about the following 37 users: Alex, Chris, Timothy, Masayuki, Elika, Peter, Anne, Daniel, Yasuhiro, Steve, ming, Cesar, Doug, Shinyu, Svante, Saloni, Jeff, Tokushige, Dean, Robert, Arron, Giorgi, David, Ian, John, Bert, Sylvain, Melinda, Molly, Markus, Chris, David, Emily, Håkon Wium, Ben, David, Tona
  189. # [03:15] <anne> Topic: local() syntax issue
  190. # [03:15] <ChrisL> action John to specity @font-alias per 6 March 2009 minutes
  191. # [03:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  192. # [03:15] <trackbot> Created ACTION-129 - Specity @font-alias per 6 March 2009 minutes [on John Daggett - due 2009-03-13].
  193. # [03:15] <anne> JD: should local require quotes or not?
  194. # [03:15] <anne> JD: I put in that quotes are optional
  195. # [03:15] <anne> [agreed]
  196. # [03:15] <anne> JD: with format() they are required
  197. # [03:15] <anne> CL: why?
  198. # [03:16] <anne> AvK: why do we have format?
  199. # [03:16] <anne> JD: it's for future safety
  200. # [03:16] <ChrisL> to avoid downloading something you know you don't support
  201. # [03:17] <anne> JD: we also need it for platform sensitivity
  202. # [03:17] <anne> JD: for certain fonts you need to identify what information the font has
  203. # [03:18] <anne> JD: so e.g. truetype-aat is skipped over on Windows
  204. # [03:19] <ChrisL> _DSC2183
  205. # [03:20] * Quits: myakura (d2e8220d@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  206. # [03:20] * Joins: myakura (d2e8220d@64.62.228.82)
  207. # [03:22] <dbaron> Anne: Spec should say that if the UA doesn't support the format() annotation, the user agent must not download the font.
  208. # [03:22] <dbaron> s/annotation/annotated/
  209. # [03:22] <dbaron> s/must not download/must not use/
  210. # [03:23] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78) (Ping timeout)
  211. # [03:23] <anne> RESOLVED: format() is authorative
  212. # [03:24] <anne> i.e. if the user agent does not support the format listed it will not use the font (and should probably not waste bandwidth either)
  213. # [03:24] <ChrisL> jd: src defines load fallback, not character fallback. order is the first font to load succesfully
  214. # [03:25] <ChrisL> _DSC2184
  215. # [03:26] <anne> JD: in case of multiple listed src() in a single @font-face that are both supported only the first is used
  216. # [03:26] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  217. # [03:26] <anne> [agreed]
  218. # [03:26] <anne> RESOLVED: in case of multiple listed src() in a single @font-face that are both supported only the first is used
  219. # [03:27] <anne> Topic: unicode-range
  220. # [03:27] <anne> JD: the way I have unicode-range is defined right now is that unicode-range has the implicit value of the full Unicode range
  221. # [03:30] <ChrisL> unicode-range initial value should be 0-U+10FFFF
  222. # [03:30] <anne> JD: In WebKit unicode-range intersects with the supported values of the font
  223. # [03:30] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod/#C077
  224. # [03:30] <anne> JD: within the bounderies of unicode-range
  225. # [03:32] <ChrisL> " C077 [S] Specifications MUST NOT allow code points above U+10FFFF.
  226. # [03:33] <anne> AvK: e.g. if you have a font with 2,3,5 and unicode-range 1-4 the intersection would be 2,3
  227. # [03:35] <ChrisL> CSS 2.1 is correct: "If the number is outside the range allowed by Unicode (e.g., "\110000" is above the maximum 10FFFF allowed in current Unicode), the UA may replace the escape with the "replacement character" (U+FFFD)."
  228. # [03:37] <anne> SZ: for big fonts being specific about what is in the font is useful to avoid wasting bandwidth
  229. # [03:40] <anne> RESOLVED: unicode-range uses the intersection of the font and unicode-range within the bounderies of unicode-range
  230. # [03:41] <ChrisL> s/font/font cmap/
  231. # [03:42] <ChrisL> s/unicode-range uses/the effective unicode range is/
  232. # [03:42] <anne> Topic: type of local() name
  233. # [03:42] <anne> JD: there's no ideal name that works on all platforms
  234. # [03:43] <anne> JD: on the Mac you'd use the postscript name
  235. # [03:43] <ChrisL> ... all fonts on a mac have a postscropt name, either real or synthesized
  236. # [03:43] <anne> JD: what I have now is that all platforms allow lookup via the full name
  237. # [03:44] <anne> HL: you want to support having style in the name of the family
  238. # [03:44] <anne> JD: the name you have here uniquely describes the font within a family
  239. # [03:44] <anne> [shouting, minute taker gets lost]
  240. # [03:45] <anne> [excited shouting, for those wondering]
  241. # [03:45] <ChrisL> fullname is family plus style except for the regular, where style is omitted
  242. # [03:48] <anne> JD: postscript name doesn't necessarily match the name in the style
  243. # [03:48] <ChrisL> so, you would need to specify it twice, fullname and postscript name?
  244. # [03:48] <ChrisL> (cl hears both yes and no)
  245. # [03:49] <anne> JD: there are OTF fonts where the full name under Windows is the postscript name
  246. # [03:49] <anne> JD: but on the Mac it is the normal full name
  247. # [03:50] <ChrisL> so the postscriptname should go first, followed by the fullname (if different to postscript name)
  248. # [03:53] <ChrisL> _DSC2185
  249. # [03:53] <anne> JD: authors would use local() because they can control individual faces and you cannot do that with font-family
  250. # [03:54] <anne> SG: font-family only allows the generic family, not a specific face
  251. # [03:55] <anne> JD: with this nomenclature you have the hope of matching cross platform, with file names it fails
  252. # [03:56] <anne> SZ: the API is that you give the system a name and use the first it returns
  253. # [03:56] <anne> HL: I'm afraid different systems will react differently
  254. # [03:58] <anne> JD: with unicode-range and local() you can create interesting combinations that will work across platforms
  255. # [03:58] <anne> HL: my experience is different
  256. # [03:58] <anne> JD: that is because fonts are not cross platform
  257. # [03:58] <anne> JD: this is inherently platform specific
  258. # [03:59] <anne> HL: I think that's why we shouldn't do it
  259. # [03:59] <anne> AvK: font-family is also platform specific
  260. # [03:59] <anne> HL: we should not expand on that
  261. # [04:02] <anne> [rehashing of unicode-range and other arguments]
  262. # [04:03] <anne> HL: does local() and font-family work the same?
  263. # [04:03] <anne> JD: no, but in some cases it will
  264. # [04:03] <ChrisL> sz: anything which varies on one of the descriptorts, must be specified by @font face not font-family
  265. # [04:03] <anne> CL: we don't want that
  266. # [04:04] * MikeSmith is now known as tuffy
  267. # [04:04] <ChrisL> s/tthat/people to use font-family: "Helvetica Bold Italic"
  268. # [04:05] <anne> s/that/people to use font-family: "Helvetica Bold Italic"
  269. # [04:10] * anne needs a break
  270. # [04:10] <anne> HL: I'm ok with this as long as it is interoperable
  271. # [04:10] <ChrisL> I wonder if a font-size descriptor plus src would let us get at optical variants
  272. # [04:10] <anne> AvK: the spec can give advice
  273. # [04:10] <anne> JD: of course
  274. # [04:11] <anne> SZ: I would not like APIs of systems
  275. # [04:11] <anne> AvK: if that's the reality it seems better to specify reality
  276. # [04:12] <anne> AvK: e.g. ARIA does that too
  277. # [04:12] <anne> SZ: as long as it is clear that it is one way of doing it
  278. # [04:13] <anne> JD: for the roadmap of this spec I'd like to get what's in the spec now solid
  279. # [04:13] <anne> JD: and by the end of this month hopefully get a WD out
  280. # [04:13] <anne> JD: and then work on exposing opentype features and some of the other issues regarding better typography
  281. # [04:13] <anne> JD: with hopefully a draft for the June F2F
  282. # [04:15] <szilles_> SZ: I did say that I would prefer that the REC not have API based descriptions in the informative note.
  283. # [04:16] <szilles_> SZ: What I really meant was that the mapping of the local name to the font name tables ought to be specified in terms of the font format specifications (without having to invoke that APIs)
  284. # [04:17] <szilles_> SZ: And that the API information should suggest a way to implement that mapping but that not being the only way to implement the mapping
  285. # [04:22] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [04:24] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  287. # [05:32] <jdaggett> scribenick: jdaggett
  288. # [05:32] <jdaggett> zakim: hello
  289. # [05:32] <jdaggett> zakim, how's the weather?
  290. # [05:32] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jdaggett.
  291. # [05:33] <jdaggett> topic: namespaces
  292. # [05:33] <jdaggett> anne: one clarification
  293. # [05:33] <fantasai> Anne: There's just one clarification we want to make to the spec before proceeding
  294. # [05:33] <jdaggett> anne: duplicate clarifications are not conformant
  295. # [05:34] <jdaggett> anne: after that change and we have two implementations
  296. # [05:34] <jdaggett> anne: we can go to pr
  297. # [05:34] <jdaggett> discussion of pr criteria
  298. # [05:35] <jdaggett> anne: we have a full test suite
  299. # [05:35] <jdaggett> chrisl: level of coverage?
  300. # [05:35] <jdaggett> discussion of test failurs
  301. # [05:35] <jdaggett> s/failurs/failures/
  302. # [05:36] <jdaggett> anne: bugzilla bug exists
  303. # [05:36] <jdaggett> discussion of exit criteria
  304. # [05:37] <jdaggett> and whether can remove tests
  305. # [05:38] <jdaggett> chrisl: no recs got published since i left the group
  306. # [05:39] <jdaggett> discussion of specific bug mozilla is currently failing
  307. # [05:39] <jdaggett> dbaron: test is wrong
  308. # [05:41] <jdaggett> dbaron: has to due with url parsing bug
  309. # [05:41] <jdaggett> dbaron: hmmm, maybe the bug does exist
  310. # [05:41] <jdaggett> chrisl browbeats dbaron
  311. # [05:42] <jdaggett> dbaron resists valiantly
  312. # [05:43] <jdaggett> anne: waiting for implementations to pass
  313. # [05:44] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Namespace/current/syntax-013.xml
  314. # [05:44] <dbaron> is the test that fails in Gecko
  315. # [05:45] * jdaggett quiet falls upon the room...
  316. # [05:46] * jdaggett friday afternoon haze methinks
  317. # [05:46] * jdaggett MikeSmith busy computing pi to 5000 digits
  318. # [05:48] <jdaggett> correction: anne states duplication declarations are not conformant
  319. # [05:48] <jdaggett> chrisl: agreement?
  320. # [05:49] <ChrisL> resolution: duplicate namespace declarations make content nonconforming
  321. # [05:49] <jdaggett> topic: june f2f agenda
  322. # [05:50] <jdaggett> howcome: multi-col should be into LC
  323. # [05:50] <jdaggett> stevel: gcpm?
  324. # [05:50] <jdaggett> howcome: yes
  325. # [05:51] <jdaggett> stevel: how to reflect font features in css
  326. # [05:51] <jdaggett> stevel: test suites?
  327. # [05:51] <jdaggett> ee: working on draft of paged media
  328. # [05:52] <jdaggett> anne: what's issue with ms test suite?
  329. # [05:52] <jdaggett> ee: getting them reviewed is the key
  330. # [05:53] <jdaggett> howcome: can we get a demo of the test suite?
  331. # [05:53] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/review
  332. # [05:53] <jdaggett> ee showing tests suite
  333. # [05:53] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/review-checklist
  334. # [05:54] <jdaggett> fantasai: managing test checks via mailing list
  335. # [05:55] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/source/CSS2.1-test-suite/incoming/microsoft/
  336. # [05:55] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/svn-view/CSS2.1-test-suite/incoming/microsoft/
  337. # [05:55] <fantasai> send mail to public-css-testsuite
  338. # [05:56] <jdaggett> ee: build system will hopefully index metadata for tests
  339. # [05:56] <jdaggett> ee: this should give us
  340. # [05:56] <jdaggett> ee: a better understanding which tests fail
  341. # [05:57] <jdaggett> howcome: who's server is this?
  342. # [05:57] <jdaggett> ee: hp
  343. # [05:57] <jdaggett> howcome asking about tests
  344. # [05:58] * Joins: howcome (howcome@202.221.217.78)
  345. # [05:58] * jdaggett howcome sparks up his irc client, gears spinning
  346. # [05:59] <jdaggett> ee: svn view to figure out changes
  347. # [06:00] <jdaggett> ee: build script to turn xhtml to html versions
  348. # [06:00] <jdaggett> ee: after that i'll be tidying up, cron job to build
  349. # [06:00] <jdaggett> sylvain: manpower issue
  350. # [06:01] <jdaggett> discussion of format guidelines
  351. # [06:02] <szilles_> EE: Arron has a set of scripts written in C# that do a lot of checks; the CSS group does not have these.
  352. # [06:02] <ChrisL> http://test.csswg.org/source/CSS2.1-test-suite/incoming/microsoft/Chapter_5/attribute-value-selector-004.xht not well formed
  353. # [06:02] <howcome> http://test.csswg.org/source/CSS2.1-test-suite/incoming/microsoft/Chapter_5/attribute-value-selector-004.xht
  354. # [06:04] <jdaggett> ee: lots of work to do
  355. # [06:04] <ChrisL> it would be easy to pass all files through an xml parser and see which ones are nwf so they can be fixed
  356. # [06:04] <jdaggett> ee: some tests not well-formed
  357. # [06:05] <jdaggett> howcome: so what's the process here?
  358. # [06:06] <jdaggett> anne: not clear when a test is approved
  359. # [06:06] <jdaggett> ee: someone needs to review each test and confirm to mailing list
  360. # [06:06] <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Mar/
  361. # [06:07] <jdaggett> howcome notes an error in markup
  362. # [06:07] <jdaggett> howcome: we follow standards... ;)
  363. # [06:08] <jdaggett> anne: reparsing a security issue
  364. # [06:08] <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Mar/0002.html
  365. # [06:09] <jdaggett> sylvain: not sure when this is going to get completed
  366. # [06:10] <jdaggett> ee: so, um..
  367. # [06:10] <jdaggett> ee: can make a wiki page with links to tests
  368. # [06:10] <jdaggett> ee: categorized by reviewed, not reviewed
  369. # [06:10] <jdaggett> discussion of review process
  370. # [06:11] * jdaggett howcome now calculating pi to 6000 digits, one-uping MikeSmith
  371. # [06:12] <jdaggett> dbaron proposing a process
  372. # [06:13] * anne just reached the end of pi
  373. # [06:14] <jdaggett> chrisl: check out test, confirm, twiddle tasty bits in test file, check back in
  374. # [06:14] <jdaggett> ee: need mailing list post
  375. # [06:14] * shepazu tells anne to stop being irrational
  376. # [06:15] * jdaggett shepazu should be tucked into bed by now, no?
  377. # [06:15] * shepazu @jdaggett... at midnight? are you kidding?
  378. # [06:15] * jdaggett heh, night is young...
  379. # [06:16] <jdaggett> ee, dbaron discussing whether to check-in vs. posting to mailing list
  380. # [06:17] <jdaggett> ee: either way (patches or posting mail) is fine
  381. # [06:17] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@98.246.171.82)
  382. # [06:17] <fantasai> hey Melinda, just in time. We're discussing tests
  383. # [06:17] * anne retorts with http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/numb/pi-irr.html
  384. # [06:18] <jdaggett> ee: web interface for checking who has done what
  385. # [06:18] <melinda> heh heh, I was just going to capture the log as I toddled off to bed, but I can hang out for a bit.
  386. # [06:19] <jdaggett> ee: aaron wants to know when things change
  387. # [06:19] <jdaggett> stevel: automatic checkin notification?
  388. # [06:20] <jdaggett> dbaron: can we just do this via email?
  389. # [06:20] <jdaggett> stevel: but for others outside the wg
  390. # [06:20] <jdaggett> anne: for html5, several lists track changes
  391. # [06:21] <jdaggett> dbaron: uh, not just tools, actually doing the work...
  392. # [06:22] <jdaggett> ee: need meta element to note review
  393. # [06:23] <jdaggett> discussion of meta format
  394. # [06:23] <jdaggett> for review comment
  395. # [06:23] <jdaggett> stevel making a point
  396. # [06:24] <jdaggett> anne commenting
  397. # [06:24] <jdaggett> chrisl: i'm taking fonts chapter
  398. # [06:25] <jdaggett> more process discussion
  399. # [06:25] <jdaggett> ee about to speak
  400. # [06:25] <jdaggett> everyone quiet in anticipation
  401. # [06:26] <jdaggett> ee fiddling with keyboard
  402. # [06:27] <jdaggett> chrisl assigning homework
  403. # [06:27] * tuffy is now known as waruiko
  404. # [06:28] <jdaggett> anne: chapter 4 syntax
  405. # [06:28] <jdaggett> dbaron: 5, selectors
  406. # [06:28] <dbaron> chris: 15, fonts
  407. # [06:29] <jdaggett> howcome: dbaron, 12
  408. # [06:29] <jdaggett> stevel: 14
  409. # [06:29] <melinda> Uh, what homework is being assigned...?
  410. # [06:29] <jdaggett> howcome: 13
  411. # [06:30] <jdaggett> MikeSmith getting suckered into more work...
  412. # [06:30] <jdaggett> MikeSmith: appendix d
  413. # [06:31] <jdaggett> MikeSmith: media types 7
  414. # [06:31] <jdaggett> ee: i'm doing bidi tests
  415. # [06:31] <jdaggett> anne: hixie, 8-11
  416. # [06:31] <jdaggett> ?
  417. # [06:31] <jdaggett> howcome: bert, box model?
  418. # [06:32] <jdaggett> me: fonts, 15
  419. # [06:32] <jdaggett> howcome gives me a hard time
  420. # [06:33] <jdaggett> ee: i updated review process
  421. # [06:34] <jdaggett> with metatag format
  422. # [06:34] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/review
  423. # [06:34] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/format#reviewer
  424. # [06:35] <jdaggett> ee demoing svn details
  425. # [06:36] <jdaggett> howcome: melinda should do?
  426. # [06:36] <fantasai> svn co http://test.csswg.org/svn/ myfavdirectoryname to check out everything
  427. # [06:36] <howcome> Melinda: we're signing up for CSS 2.1 tests to review
  428. # [06:36] <melinda> Yeah!
  429. # [06:36] <howcome> Melinda: each person in the room has picked a chapter
  430. # [06:37] <jdaggett> melinda is working on print, 13
  431. # [06:37] <jdaggett> ee: ^
  432. # [06:37] <melinda> But I need a reviewer (thanks, Hakon!)
  433. # [06:38] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
  434. # [06:38] <fantasai> Recommended reading ^
  435. # [06:38] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/review
  436. # [06:39] <jdaggett> i'll do chap. 6
  437. # [06:40] <howcome> Melinda: is it possible to put the tests on the same server as where the MS tests are? Or, should I look somewhere else?
  438. # [06:41] <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/
  439. # [06:41] <melinda> I've been moving some to the csswg site, and I'll try to get the rest moved over next week.
  440. # [06:41] <fantasai> melinda: Are you putting them in http://test.csswg.org/svn/submitted/css2.1/page/ ?
  441. # [06:41] <melinda> yes
  442. # [06:42] <jdaggett> stevel: asks for pointers on the wiki page
  443. # [06:43] <jdaggett> chrisl: agenda item, go over tests in june f2f
  444. # [06:43] <jdaggett> chrisl: complete tests by start of april?
  445. # [06:44] <jdaggett> chrisl: review test suite at beginning of april
  446. # [06:45] <sylvaing> the msft test suite site also allows you to navigate your tests by properties/rules if that helps : http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/css.htm
  447. # [06:49] <anne> rel="reviewer" is now provisionally registered: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  448. # [06:49] * Quits: howcome (howcome@202.221.217.78) (Ping timeout)
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  450. # [06:52] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  451. # [06:54] * waruiko is now known as wanpakubouzu
  452. # [07:00] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78) (Quit: sylvaing)
  453. # [07:07] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@202.221.217.78)
  454. # [07:07] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
  455. # [07:09] <dbaron> Elika: Do we want to publish a new CR of namespaces with the one change?
  456. # [07:09] <dbaron> Chris: No point holding it back.
  457. # [07:09] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai publish namespaces CR and Selectors LC
  458. # [07:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  459. # [07:09] * RRSAgent records action 1
  460. # [07:09] <trackbot> Created ACTION-130 - Publish namespaces CR and Selectors LC [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-03-13].
  461. # [07:10] <dbaron> Topic: CSS 2.1 issues
  462. # [07:12] <dbaron> Elika: SVG WG wants us to publish transforms on the same day as ???, so we have a combined news item.
  463. # [07:12] <dbaron> Håkon: what was the compromise?
  464. # [07:12] <dbaron> Steve: Dean and I agreed on a paragraph.
  465. # [07:13] <dbaron> Steve: [reads paragraph]
  466. # [07:13] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/
  467. # [07:14] <dbaron> Håkon: I think the second role (layout-affecting transforms) should be in a separate spec, since it's so different.
  468. # [07:14] <dbaron> Steve: It's all the same properties.
  469. # [07:15] <dbaron> Anne: No need to discuss this now.
  470. # [07:15] <dbaron> Anne: Just agree on the text and whether to publish Wednesday.
  471. # [07:15] <dbaron> Elika: The text you read isn't in the draft.
  472. # [07:17] <dbaron> Steve: Hmm, he said he'd put this in in mail to me on 23 Feb.
  473. # [07:17] <dbaron> Chris: Last modification of that draft is 18 Feb.
  474. # [07:19] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0114.html
  475. # [07:20] <dbaron> ACTION: Bert to put text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0114.html into css3-2d-transforms and request publication.
  476. # [07:20] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  477. # [07:20] * RRSAgent records action 2
  478. # [07:20] <trackbot> Created ACTION-131 - Put text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0114.html into css3-2d-transforms and request publication. [on Bert Bos - due 2009-03-13].
  479. # [07:21] * Joins: howcome (howcome@202.221.217.78)
  480. # [07:21] <howcome> http://howcome.gotdns.com/img/2009/03-05-tokyo/
  481. # [07:21] <dbaron> Topic: CSS 2.1 issues, really this time
  482. # [07:22] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86
  483. # [07:24] <ChrisL> Proposal
  484. # [07:24] <ChrisL> Add The position of the list-item marker in the presence of floats is undefined in CSS2.1. Ask web-designers about text-align.
  485. # [07:24] <dbaron> David: I don't remember why we couldn't come to an agreement about this, but not sure whether it's worth reopening.
  486. # [07:27] <dbaron> David: I think we were converging on behavior, though...
  487. # [07:27] <dbaron> Elika: I think we should leave undefined for 2.1.
  488. # [07:28] <dbaron> ACTION: David to test how interoperable we are on http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86 for both floats and text-align
  489. # [07:28] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  490. # [07:28] * RRSAgent records action 3
  491. # [07:28] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
  492. # [07:28] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dbaron, dsinger2, hyatt)
  493. # [07:28] <dbaron> ACTION: dbaron to test how interoperable we are on http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86 for both floats and text-align
  494. # [07:28] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  495. # [07:28] * RRSAgent records action 4
  496. # [07:28] <trackbot> Created ACTION-132 - Test how interoperable we are on http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86 for both floats and text-align [on David Baron - due 2009-03-13].
  497. # [07:29] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cul%20style%3Dtext-align%3Acenter%3E%3Cli%3Ex
  498. # [07:29] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-94
  499. # [07:31] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0255.html
  500. # [07:31] <fantasai> I actually prefer option 3
  501. # [07:31] <fantasai> rather than 2
  502. # [07:32] <fantasai> (which doesn't conflict with that example either)
  503. # [07:32] <fantasai> dbaron: I think option 2 was the original intent
  504. # [07:33] <fantasai> dbaron: The problem is we have a shorthand property that accepts values of its subproperties in any order, and two of the three subproperties take the value none, and only the initial value of one of them is none
  505. # [07:34] <fantasai> actually I meant to say i prefer 1 :)
  506. # [07:36] <fantasai> dbaron: We have convergence on 2, since I fixed Gecko to match Opera
  507. # [07:36] <fantasai> dbaron: since Gecko was pretty wacky
  508. # [07:36] <fantasai> dbaron: Opera matched 2, and Webkit only sort-of matched 1
  509. # [07:36] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Dec/att-0028/list-style.html
  510. # [07:39] <dbaron> Chris: Thoughts on the proposed text.
  511. # [07:39] <dbaron> David: I'm for it, of course.
  512. # [07:39] <fantasai> RESOLVED: dbaron's proposal accepted
  513. # [07:39] <dbaron> Håkon, Sylvain: ok with me
  514. # [07:39] <dbaron> Steve: abstain
  515. # [07:40] <fantasai> for issue 94
  516. # [07:40] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-100
  517. # [07:42] <dbaron> David: I think we broke this recently... in the 2004 CR it mentions propagating 'background'
  518. # [07:43] <dbaron> Elika: are people happy with the css3 text?
  519. # [07:43] <dbaron> Anne: In theory we should use lower case element names.
  520. # [07:44] <dbaron> David: I agree with the proposal.
  521. # [07:45] <dbaron> RESOLVED: accept proposal for issue 100
  522. # [07:45] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
  523. # [07:45] <fantasai> dbaron: I recently rewrote some float code in Mozilla
  524. # [07:46] <fantasai> dbaron: The old code was so incomprehensible that I tried to understand it by writing test cases
  525. # [07:46] <fantasai> dbaron: I made a change to follow the spec, and that broke web pages
  526. # [07:46] * shepazu reads backlog... yay on resolution to publish css transforms, hope animations will be published too
  527. # [07:47] * fantasai pokes shepazu just 'coz
  528. # [07:47] <fantasai> dbaron: We have this long list or rules for positioning floats
  529. # [07:47] <fantasai> dbaron: There are 3 rules for horizontal positioning... 3 5 and 7?
  530. # [07:47] * shepazu cries like a lil babby
  531. # [07:47] <fantasai> dbaron: Here's a left float
  532. # [07:48] <fantasai> dbaron draws a big box with a rectangle on the lefthand side
  533. # [07:48] <fantasai> and draws arrows pointing left to show that it is a left float
  534. # [07:48] <fantasai> dbaron draws another smaller box halfway down the empty space on the right
  535. # [07:49] <fantasai> dbaron: This box is a normal flow descendant of the big box
  536. # [07:49] <fantasai> dbaron: It has margins big enough that it doesn't touch the float
  537. # [07:50] <fantasai> dbaron: http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/visuren.html#float-position
  538. # [07:50] * myakura tries to imagine what it looks like
  539. # [07:50] <fantasai> dbaron: The rules that deal with horizontal positioning are 3, 5, 7
  540. # [07:50] <fantasai> dbaron: So sometime circa 2003 or so, hixie wrote a testcase for rule 5
  541. # [07:51] <fantasai> dbaron: In the intervening years browsers fixed their bugs to follow rule 5
  542. # [07:51] <fantasai> dbaron: but not rules 3 and 7
  543. # [07:51] <fantasai> dbaron: So now we're in the situation where browsers do 3 with added "and its horizontal coordinates intersect the horizontal coordinates of its containing block".
  544. # [07:52] <fantasai> dbaron: don't ask me whether it's border box or content box
  545. # [07:52] <ChrisL> _DSC2186
  546. # [07:53] <fantasai> dbaron: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0445.html
  547. # [07:53] * ChrisL tells myakura that the filenames are photos which will appear in the minutes
  548. # [07:53] <fantasai> dbaron: So the question is do we want to change the spec or get the implementations to change?
  549. # [07:54] <fantasai> dbaron says something about really complicated
  550. # [07:55] <fantasai> it's not about testing combinations of the rules
  551. # [07:55] <fantasai> it's about the case where the float doesn't ....
  552. # [07:55] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not really happy with any of the options
  553. # [07:56] <fantasai> dbaron: The spec is simpler. But I did get a bug report one day after changing this in a nightly build
  554. # [07:56] <fantasai> sylvain: IE8 matches FF3.1 beta
  555. # [07:56] <fantasai> dbaron: here's the fun part
  556. # [07:57] <fantasai> dbaron: the bug is not the rule 3 case and not the rule 7 case
  557. # [07:57] <fantasai> dbaron: It's actually the replaced elements getting pushed around floats case
  558. # [07:57] <fantasai> dbaron: because the rule 3 case and the rule 5 and rule 7 cases were suppose I put a float inside this big box
  559. # [07:58] <fantasai> dbaron: But the ? is about putting a wide repalced element inside the big box
  560. # [07:58] <fantasai> dbaron: e.g. put a box with overflow auto next to the float that "doesn't fit"
  561. # [07:58] <fantasai> dbaron: even if the fact that it doesn't fit doesn't have anythign to do with the float
  562. # [07:58] <fantasai> dbaron: Maybe that's web compat and the others aren't
  563. # [07:59] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't really know
  564. # [07:59] * fantasai is so confused
  565. # [07:59] <fantasai> anne: There are 4 impl matching each other, right?
  566. # [07:59] <fantasai> dbaron: We need better tests to tell if they're really matching each other
  567. # [07:59] <fantasai> dbaron: e.g. I wasn't testing border-box vs padding-box vs content-box
  568. # [08:00] <fantasai> anne: I note that nobody volunteered reviewing those tests either :)
  569. # [08:00] <fantasai> dbaron: I suppose I could take an action to write more tests and propose changes to the spec
  570. # [08:00] <fantasai> fantasai: I have no opinion
  571. # [08:00] <fantasai> dbaron: My guess is Bert would have an opinion
  572. # [08:01] <fantasai> fantasai: Does anyone have an opinion?
  573. # [08:01] <fantasai> silence
  574. # [08:01] <fantasai> s/anyone/anyone here/
  575. # [08:01] <fantasai> howcome: You're never going to be able to test all cases
  576. # [08:01] <fantasai> dbaron: For the past 3 years we'd thought we'd gotten this down
  577. # [08:02] <fantasai> Chris: ...
  578. # [08:02] <fantasai> dbaron: what rule 7 is saying, if you're next to a float..
  579. # [08:02] <fantasai> dbaron: so if you have a left float that's wider than its container
  580. # [08:02] <fantasai> dbaron: it's a left float that's sticking out of its container
  581. # [08:02] <fantasai> dbaron: it's next to a float
  582. # [08:02] <fantasai> dbaron: we should push it down
  583. # [08:03] <fantasai> dbaron: so in some sense you could see these new rules as an improvement
  584. # [08:03] <fantasai> dbaron: but we do push it down for the 5 case, since someone wrote a test case
  585. # [08:04] <fantasai> dbaron: of course the real-world testcase was someone using width 100% on a float that had a 2px border
  586. # [08:04] * Quits: howcome (howcome@202.221.217.78) (Ping timeout)
  587. # [08:05] <fantasai> dbaron: when I found this issue it was one of those realizations where I thought we were done with issues like this
  588. # [08:05] <fantasai> dbaron: I guess I have an action for this
  589. # [08:05] <fantasai> ACTION: write testcases for issue 101
  590. # [08:05] * RRSAgent records action 5
  591. # [08:05] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  592. # [08:05] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - write
  593. # [08:08] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-102
  594. # [08:09] <dbaron> ACTION: dbaron to write testcases for issue 101 (e.g., see if we're interoperable on content-box vs. border-box) and come up with a proposal
  595. # [08:09] * RRSAgent records action 6
  596. # [08:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  597. # [08:09] <trackbot> Created ACTION-133 - Write testcases for issue 101 (e.g., see if we're interoperable on content-box vs. border-box) and come up with a proposal [on David Baron - due 2009-03-13].
  598. # [08:09] <fantasai> Sylvain: 1a { too: early; } @import "foo.css";
  599. # [08:10] <fantasai> Sylvain: We discussed this on the telecon
  600. # [08:10] <fantasai> Sylvain: On one hand the parser is supposed to ignore it. On the other hand we're supposed to throw out the @import
  601. # [08:11] <fantasai> Sylvain reads from the spec
  602. # [08:11] <fantasai> Sylvain: THere were 2 things in teh discussions
  603. # [08:12] <fantasai> Anne: my issue was that "valid statement" is ambiguous
  604. # [08:12] <fantasai> Sylvain: In this case we wanted the @import to fail
  605. # [08:12] <fantasai> Sylvain: But we also wanted new @rules to be allowed before @import
  606. # [08:13] <fantasai> fantasai: So we wanted to totally ignore invalid @rules
  607. # [08:14] <fantasai> fantasai: but for other junk to recognize that there's junk there (which coudl be future selectors) and not process the @import after the junk
  608. # [08:14] <fantasai> dbaron: So is it really our goal to prevent authors from doing hacks like that?
  609. # [08:14] <fantasai> dbaron: Would that prevent us from introducing new syntax in the future?
  610. # [08:15] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think that's the most important issue
  611. # [08:16] <fantasai> dbaron: I think the important issue is whether us introducing an @import in the future will cause the @import to be ignored
  612. # [08:17] <fantasai> anne: valid statement is ambiguous
  613. # [08:17] <fantasai> dbaron: I think the intent is "stuff that you can process"
  614. # [08:17] <fantasai> dbaron: THat's how I interpret it
  615. # [08:17] <fantasai> anne: Opera interpreted is as syntactically valid per the core grammar
  616. # [08:17] <fantasai> anne: I do know that we ignore the @import if there's bogus things before it
  617. # [08:18] <fantasai> dbaron and anne and sylvain test Opera
  618. # [08:20] <fantasai> anne: I propose replacing "valid statement" with "stuff that is not ignored"
  619. # [08:20] <dbaron> It sounds like anne is actually ok with the Firefox behavior, he just thinks the spec is ambiguous and Opera developers interpreted it differently.
  620. # [08:21] <fantasai> dbaron: If we change 'valid' to 'non-ignored' would that work?
  621. # [08:22] <fantasai> dbaron: It sounds like we want that testcase to be a correct test case
  622. # [08:22] <sylvaing> in 4.1.5 At Rules
  623. # [08:22] <sylvaing> instead of
  624. # [08:22] <sylvaing> CSS2.1 user agents must ignore any '@import' rule that occurs inside a block or after any valid statement other than an @charset or an @import rule.
  625. # [08:22] <sylvaing> use
  626. # [08:22] <sylvaing> CSS2.1 user agents must ignore any '@import' rule that occurs inside a block or after any non-ignored statement other than an @charset or an @import rule.
  627. # [08:22] <fantasai> anne: In Section 4.1.5 replace 'valid statement' with 'non-ignored statement'
  628. # [08:23] <sylvaing> Any @import rules must precede all other rules (except the @charset rule, if present).
  629. # [08:23] <sylvaing> (from 6.3)
  630. # [08:23] <dbaron> that should say "all other non-ignored rules"
  631. # [08:24] <dbaron> er, probably shouldn't change since it's authoring conformance, not implementation conformance
  632. # [08:25] * fantasai loves csswg meetings
  633. # [08:27] <fantasai> discussion of the difference between authoring conformance reqs and impl conformance reqs
  634. # [08:28] <fantasai> RESOLVED: anne's proposal accepted for issue 102
  635. # [08:28] <dbaron> (which is to change 4.1.5 only)
  636. # [08:28] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-103
  637. # [08:29] <fantasai> dbaron: I was writing a test for this section and realized that it was incorrect despite having read this section at least 50 times before
  638. # [08:29] <fantasai> dbaron: 10.3.1 is a really short section
  639. # [08:29] <fantasai> dbaron reads 10.3.1
  640. # [08:30] <fantasai> dbaron: This section is incorrect for relatively positioned elements
  641. # [08:30] <fantasai> dbaron: My rpoposal is to remove left and right from 10.3.1
  642. # [08:31] <fantasai> dbaron: Earlier in 10.3 there's a reference to 9.4.3
  643. # [08:31] <fantasai> dbaron: we should clarify that that applies to 9.4.3
  644. # [08:31] <fantasai> s/9.4.3/relatively positioned elements
  645. # [08:31] <fantasai> dbaron: and that whent he position is static the values are zero
  646. # [08:34] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept to fix error, exact edits determined by Bert
  647. # [08:37] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-105
  648. # [08:37] <fantasai> RESOLVED: accept that widows and orphans can only accept integers >=1
  649. # [08:41] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-68
  650. # [08:44] <anne> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/bcp/bcp47.html
  651. # [08:45] <fantasai> RESOLVED: accept proposal for issue 68
  652. # [08:46] <fantasai> Anne: You should update the reference to BCP47
  653. # [08:47] <fantasai> Steve argues against referencing the latest version
  654. # [08:48] <fantasai> everybody else disagrees
  655. # [08:49] <fantasai> ACTION fantasai: update Selectors with BCP47
  656. # [08:49] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  657. # [08:49] * RRSAgent records action 7
  658. # [08:49] <trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Update Selectors with BCP47 [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-03-13].
  659. # [08:53] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-85
  660. # [08:55] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0125.html
  661. # [08:57] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0035.html raises the actual issue
  662. # [09:01] <fantasai> fantasai explains that the sentence in http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#characters conflicts with the tokenization
  663. # [09:01] <fantasai> that sentence allows \ followed by newline as an escape
  664. # [09:01] <fantasai> whereas the tokenization doesn't
  665. # [09:03] <fantasai> Also, I don't think newlines and spaces should be treated differently here
  666. # [09:03] <fantasai> So my preference is to keep the prose and fix the tokenization
  667. # [09:04] <dbaron> I think we should just change the prose: change "except a hexadecimal digit" to "except a hexadecimal digit or a newline (\n, \r, or \f)"
  668. # [09:08] <fantasai> Three options:
  669. # [09:09] <fantasai> 1. Follow the prose and fix the grammar, so \ followed by newline is treated as a literal newline
  670. # [09:09] <fantasai> 2. Make it invalid, triggering a parse error
  671. # [09:09] <fantasai> 3. \ followed by newline is treated as if neither are present
  672. # [09:11] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ebody%2C%20%5Btitle%3Dx%5C%0D%0Ax%5D%20%7B%20background%3Alime%20%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cbody%20title%3D%22xx%22%3Ex
  673. # [09:12] * Quits: myakura (d2e8220d@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
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  675. # [09:12] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ep%2C%20.tes\%0At%20{%20background%3Alime%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20class%3D%22test%22%3Etest1%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cdiv%3Etest2%3C%2Fdiv%3E
  676. # [09:13] <fantasai> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ep%2C%20.tes\%0At%20{%20background%3Alime%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0A%3Cdiv%20class%3D%22test%22%3Etest1%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cp%3Etest2%3C%2Fp%3E
  677. # [09:15] <fantasai> Firefox drops the sequence
  678. # [09:15] <fantasai> Safari treats it as invalid
  679. # [09:15] <fantasai> IE8 treats it as valid but doesn't drop the sequence
  680. # [09:15] <fantasai> Opera treats it as invalid
  681. # [09:16] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ep%2C%20.te\%0Ast%20{%20background%3Alime%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20test%3D%22te%26%2310%3Bst%22%3Etest1%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cp%3Etest2%3C%2Fp%3E
  682. # [09:18] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ep%2C%20[test%3Dte\%0Ast]%20{%20background%3Alime%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20test%3D%22te%26%2310%3Bst%22%3Etest1%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cp%3Etest2%3C%2Fp%3E
  683. # [09:23] <fantasai> General preference for Firefox behavior
  684. # [09:24] <fantasai> Needs a change to prose to except newlines and then specify that such escapes are dropped
  685. # [09:24] <fantasai> dbaron lists changes to tokenizer: removing nl production and merging it into escape
  686. # [09:26] <fantasai> dbaron: Ok, I retract my position, I want to go the other way
  687. # [09:27] <fantasai> dbaron: An escaped newline in the middle of a number is a pain
  688. # [09:28] <fantasai> dbaron: I want to make it invalid
  689. # [09:28] <fantasai> RESOLVED: make it invalid, add "except newlines" to sentence about Any characters
  690. # [09:28] <anne> change "except a hexadecimal digit" to "except a hexadecimal digit or a newline (\n, \r, or \f)"
  691. # [09:31] <fantasai> Topic: Backgrounds and Borders
  692. # [09:31] <fantasai> summary of issue:
  693. # [09:31] <fantasai> dbaron: Brad Kemper vehemently believes that box-shadow should be ignored when border-image is on
  694. # [09:32] <dbaron> ...because he thinks they're useful in combination only as fallback
  695. # [09:33] <Zakim> ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
  696. # [09:33] <dbaron> fantasai: [draws on whiteboard about issue of what to shadow]
  697. # [09:33] <sylvaing> fantasai explains how box-shadow draws a shadow around the box itself without considering the content of the border box regardless of the transparency of the latter
  698. # [09:35] <sylvaing> fantasai explains alternative proposal and its inconsistencies
  699. # [09:40] <ChrisL> so we have three options
  700. # [09:40] <ChrisL> a) never allow drop shadow and border image together (no what authors want)
  701. # [09:41] <ChrisL> b) use the existing drop-shadow with border-image and have the resulting ugliness (not whats wanted either)
  702. # [09:42] <ChrisL> c) state that, then border-image is specified, drop-shadow works by forming an offset mask from the alpha channel (what authors probably expect)
  703. # [09:42] <ChrisL> s/then border/when border/
  704. # [09:42] <dbaron> Steve: One other option to get rid of box-shadow.
  705. # [09:43] <dbaron> Chris: But it does the job it's designed to do for basic rectangular borders.
  706. # [09:43] <dbaron> Chris: It should be clear I'm proposing the third option.
  707. # [09:44] <dbaron> Elika: if (c), then (1) do you clip inside the padding box, and (2) for inset shadows, do you clip inside the padding box?
  708. # [09:44] <dbaron> Chris: (1) yes, (2) no
  709. # [09:45] <dbaron> David: dashed, dotted, double, border-radius?
  710. # [09:45] <dbaron> Elika: You do follow border-radius (as you do for backgrounds).
  711. # [09:45] <dbaron> Elika: But you don't mask for dashed/dotted.
  712. # [09:46] <dbaron> Elika: We're just taking the concept of the CSS border box and making it opaque.
  713. # [09:47] <dbaron> David: I wonder whether box-shadow is actually useful given how many ways there are of doing shadows and how many box-shadow covers.
  714. # [09:47] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@98.246.171.82) (Ping timeout)
  715. # [09:47] <dbaron> ACTION Chris to propose text for how box-shadow should work with border-image
  716. # [09:47] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  717. # [09:47] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Chris
  718. # [09:47] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ChrisWilson, clilley)
  719. # [09:47] <dbaron> ACTION clilley to propose text for how box-shadow should work with border-image
  720. # [09:47] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  721. # [09:47] <trackbot> Created ACTION-135 - Propose text for how box-shadow should work with border-image [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-03-13].
  722. # [09:51] <fantasai> fantasai explains the difference between spread and making hte shadow bigger
  723. # [09:51] <fantasai> Meeting closed
  724. # [09:53] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  725. # [09:54] <anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/
  726. # [09:54] <anne> (example spec that references BCP47)
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  731. # [10:01] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  732. # [10:01] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  733. # [10:01] * myakura thanks all. really enjoyed yesterday
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  744. # [14:44] <myakura> http://eclecticdreams.com/blog/safari-4-quickfire-aria-testing
  745. # [14:45] <myakura> yes, we need fallback color for background :)
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The end :)