/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-03-18 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Mar 18 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #css
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# [16:15] <fantasai> yayyyy, Skype works
# [16:15] * fantasai hopes the connection doesn't cut out
# [16:23] * fantasai wonders why meyerweb is blocked from here
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# [16:50] <anne> is the telcon at 5 today due to US time changes?
# [16:50] <Bert> That's what I'm assuming.
# [16:51] <anne> I guess I can hardly attend then
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# [16:55] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-irc
# [16:55] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [16:55] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
# [16:57] * Joins: dsinger (mobile@67.218.102.170)
# [16:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [16:58] * Parts: dsinger (mobile@67.218.102.170)
# [16:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [16:59] <Zakim> +dsinger
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# [16:59] <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
# [16:59] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
# [16:59] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
# [17:00] <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
# [17:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], dsinger (muted)
# [17:00] <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, sylvaing, Lachy, anne, myakura, jdaggett, fantasai, krijnh, arronei, Bert, Hixie, shepazu, plinss_, plinss, trackbot
# [17:00] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
# [17:00] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-irc#T15-57-48
# [17:00] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
# [17:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
# [17:00] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
# [17:00] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
# [17:00] <plinss> zakim, +1.858.354 is me
# [17:00] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
# [17:00] <Zakim> +Daniel_Glazman
# [17:01] <dsinger> Morning all!
# [17:01] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
# [17:01] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
# [17:01] <sylvaing> hi dave !
# [17:01] <Zakim> +??P21
# [17:01] <anne> Zakim, ??P21 is me
# [17:01] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [17:01] <Zakim> +anne; got it
# [17:02] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.47.246.6)
# [17:03] <anne> I will have to leave in about 20 minutes.
# [17:03] * Joins: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.80.247)
# [17:03] <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:03] <anne> WIP on my action items is on public-css-testsuite
# [17:03] <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (45%), Daniel_Glazman (15%), anne (4%)
# [17:04] <Zakim> +Bert
# [17:04] <anne> I believe Bert is getting MQ to CR at this point.
# [17:04] * anne turns off music
# [17:04] <glazou> yes
# [17:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [17:04] * ChrisL heard no music, but typing
# [17:05] * glazou blames the too low quality of the mac kbd, it should be totally silent :)
# [17:05] <fantasai> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [17:05] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [17:05] <dsinger> Lots of wind and mike noise
# [17:05] * fantasai likes clicky keyboards
# [17:05] * emilyw will be on IRC only for this week and next week's meetings. :(
# [17:05] * anne turns his music back on
# [17:05] * ChrisL likesy using them but not hearing them
# [17:05] <dsinger> Cool
# [17:05] <fantasai> I may or may not be able to make next week's telecon
# [17:06] <ChrisL> zakim, mute Microsoft
# [17:06] <Zakim> [Microsoft] should now be muted
# [17:06] <fantasai> if I do, I likely won't have net access at the same time
# [17:06] <anne> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [17:06] <fantasai> but we'll see
# [17:06] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute Microsoft
# [17:06] <Zakim> [Microsoft] should no longer be muted
# [17:06] * fantasai will have to see whether Skype over dial-up still works ok
# [17:06] <Zakim> anne, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (71%), Daniel_Glazman (13%)
# [17:06] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute Daniel_Glazman
# [17:06] <Zakim> Daniel_Glazman was not muted, ChrisL
# [17:06] * fantasai hits mute
# [17:06] <ChrisL> zakim, mute Daniel_Glazman
# [17:06] <Zakim> Daniel_Glazman should now be muted
# [17:06] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute Daniel_Glazman
# [17:06] <Zakim> Daniel_Glazman should no longer be muted
# [17:07] * sylvaing is wow, Skype over dial-up
# [17:07] * ChrisL Daniel its your keyboard
# [17:07] * fantasai is on adsl atm, but won't be here next week
# [17:07] <glazou> no i was not typing any more
# [17:07] * Bert waits for TCP/IP over skype over dial-up :-)
# [17:08] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
# [17:08] * ChrisL proposes fax over skype over ip over http over ip over adsl, for backup
# [17:08] <dsinger> Mpeg2 transport over skype?
# [17:08] * sylvaing could probably run his Minitel on ChrisL's network stack
# [17:09] * ChrisL has in fact seen ip over http deployed to get out of corporate firewalls
# [17:09] * ChrisL has also seen ip over dns
# [17:09] <fantasai> zakim, mute me
# [17:09] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
# [17:09] * anne can scribe for 12 more minutes...
# [17:10] * anne sorry
# [17:10] * shepazu would like to remind CSS folks about 3D Transforms spec...
# [17:10] <Bert> Scribe: Bert
# [17:10] <glazou> shepazu: yes we know
# [17:10] <Bert> ScribeNick: Bert
# [17:10] * ChrisL hears really poor quality from peter and bert. will reconnect
# [17:10] * shepazu @glazou :D
# [17:10] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [17:11] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Mar/0042.html
# [17:11] <Bert> Topic: today's agenda
# [17:11] <Zakim> +??P22
# [17:11] <Bert> Anne: I suggest talking about test suite [see pointer above]
# [17:12] <fantasai> Topic: Publishing Transforms in coordination with SVG
# [17:12] <Bert> Topic: 3D transforms
# [17:13] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
# [17:13] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
# [17:13] <Zakim> +Shepazu
# [17:13] <Bert> Chris: SVG understood that CSS would publish it last week, but then they stopped the process when they noticed CSS wasn't publishing.
# [17:13] <dsinger> Dave is puzzled at the lack of reaction to dean's comments to svg
# [17:13] <dsinger> And also puzzled with chrisl
# [17:13] <dsinger> Lack of pib
# [17:14] * Bert is now puzzled why everyone is puzzled...
# [17:14] <dsinger> Pub
# [17:14] <shepazu> dsinger, what do you mean?
# [17:14] <anne> We did not publish because the CSS WG did not formally go on record for publishing.
# [17:14] <dsinger> Zakim, unmute me
# [17:14] <Zakim> dsinger should no longer be muted
# [17:14] <Bert> Chris: We agreed to publish jointly with SVG, but CSS wasn't ready and nothing was published.
# [17:14] <Bert> DaveS: Why were we not ready?
# [17:15] <ChrisL> Beryt, whats up with these four documents?
# [17:15] <fantasai> zakim, unmute me
# [17:15] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
# [17:16] <Bert> Bert: I couldn't find any resolution in the minutes, so couldn't publish a 1st WD.
# [17:16] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [17:16] <Bert> Doug: I couldn't find resoltuion either, maybe it was just not correctly minuted?
# [17:16] <ChrisL> ok so since we all recall agreeing this a couple of weeks ago lets have a minuted resolution today
# [17:16] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
# [17:16] <Bert> Fantasai: There was indeed no resolution, only discussion.
# [17:16] <Bert> DaveS: We got stuck on talking on one para in 2D.
# [17:17] <ChrisL> hearing no objections here
# [17:17] <Bert> Steve: We approved 2D provided that para was added.
# [17:17] <Bert> Doug: SVG really wants to see all 4 published. CAn we get resolution on that?
# [17:18] <Bert> Doug: 2D, 3D, animation and transition.
# [17:18] <fantasai> Steve: Think we had approval on all but 3d
# [17:18] <fantasai> DavidSinger: We agreed to publish 3d, but make it clear it's on a longer timescale
# [17:18] <ChrisL> so we can publish all four
# [17:19] * Quits: dsinger (mobile@67.218.102.170) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
# [17:19] <Bert> RESOLUTION: publish all four: anim, 3D, 2D and transtions.
# [17:19] <glazou> anne, I think we hear your music
# [17:20] <Bert> Doug: SVG said to Dean already we are very interested in cooperating on all four.
# [17:20] <anne> glazou, ok, it's off now :)
# [17:21] <Bert> Chris: Last weeks SVG's meeting we talked about Dean's comments.
# [17:21] <Bert> Doug: Yes, the SVG editor has an action to work on them.
# [17:21] <ChrisL> the editor in svg has an action to fold in all deans commentsbefore publication
# [17:21] <Bert> Doug: Might be good to have joint telcon SVG-CSS. Maybe even a taskforce.
# [17:21] <glazou> Zakim, who is here ?
# [17:21] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], dsinger, plinss, Daniel_Glazman, anne, Bert, fantasai, Melinda_Grant, ??P22, Shepazu, SteveZ
# [17:21] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
# [17:21] <Zakim> On IRC I see szilles, emilyw, melinda, ChrisL, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, sylvaing, Lachy, anne, myakura, jdaggett, fantasai, krijnh, arronei, Bert, Hixie, shepazu, plinss_, plinss,
# [17:21] <Zakim> ... trackbot
# [17:22] <Bert> DaveS: But not middle of the night for Dean...
# [17:22] * fantasai is so happy SVG and CSS are cooperating happily
# [17:22] * ChrisL is too
# [17:22] <Zakim> -Shepazu
# [17:22] * shepazu yays
# [17:22] <Bert> Topic: test review process
# [17:22] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Mar/0042.html
# [17:23] <Bert> Anne: At ftf we decided that if you review a test, you would indicate that.
# [17:23] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
# [17:23] <Bert> Anne: Also decided you could change and somebody else would review that.
# [17:23] <Bert> Anne: But not clear from the test itself who reviewed it.
# [17:23] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [17:23] <Zakim> -dsinger
# [17:24] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
# [17:24] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
# [17:24] <Bert> Anne: So proposal is a small change to tets format.
# [17:24] * Bert can't hear fantasai
# [17:24] <Bert> Melinda: So anybody who makes a change should add a link?
# [17:25] <Bert> Anne: yes, add a "reviewer" link.
# [17:25] <Bert> Fantasai: "Author" is who wrote the test, maybe has copyright.
# [17:25] <Bert> Melinda: So are we adding "author" "contributor" or "reviewer" links?
# [17:26] <fantasai> Add "author" if you make a significant contribution to the test
# [17:26] <fantasai> i.e. not fixing a typo or tweaking the title
# [17:26] <fantasai> actually changing the test
# [17:26] <Bert> Fantasai: [writing in IRC]
# [17:26] * anne has to run, will hopefully review his tests soonish
# [17:26] <sylvaing> so if I submit a test, then fantasai edits it then anne approves it we'll have...
# [17:27] <fantasai> The problem I had with the reviewer link idea, is that it's not clear when the complete test is reviewed
# [17:27] <sylvaing> a link rel=author for fantasai's edit
# [17:27] <fantasai> for example
# [17:27] <fantasai> a test is submitted with some problems
# [17:27] <fantasai> I review it
# [17:27] <fantasai> it's mostly good
# [17:27] <sylvaing> then a link rel=reviewer for anne ?
# [17:27] <fantasai> but this one part needs a fix
# [17:27] <fantasai> I can fix it and then ask the author to review my chang
# [17:27] <fantasai> in that case
# [17:27] <fantasai> we're both actually reviewers
# [17:27] <anne> sylvaing, yes
# [17:27] <sylvaing> ok
# [17:27] <anne> sylvaing, but you can review it yourself as well
# [17:28] <fantasai> that doesn't help fantasai programmatically figure out whether the test is *approved* yet or not
# [17:28] <anne> (dates should be clear from SVN)
# [17:28] <Bert> Melinda: So probably the review needs a date field as well.
# [17:28] <fantasai> Anyone can review
# [17:28] <anne> fantasai, "reviewer" means approved
# [17:28] <fantasai> peers will approve the tests and move it over, and that might mean rubber-stamping a review by someone competent
# [17:28] <Bert> Chris: We have a list of who reviews which chapter in principle.
# [17:28] <anne> fantasai, is what we decided
# [17:28] <sylvaing> right, not sure I as microsoft should review our own tests. am open to reviewing other tests
# [17:28] * anne has to go
# [17:28] <fantasai> e.g. if jdaggett is reviewing the fonts test,s I'll assume he's rgith
# [17:28] <fantasai> if someone I've never heard of reviews them, I will probably take another look first
# [17:28] <Bert> Melinda: No record of who "approves" a test?
# [17:29] <fantasai> before copying the tests into CVS
# [17:29] <fantasai> no, just cvs record for that bit
# [17:29] <fantasai> So
# [17:29] <Bert> Melinda: So whoever approves must do a CVS check-in?
# [17:29] <fantasai> there's two levels of "review" one is mainly about reviewing the test
# [17:29] <fantasai> the other is mainly checking that the test has been appropriately reviewed
# [17:30] <fantasai> the first level is where we send comments to public-css-testsuite
# [17:30] <fantasai> and mark reviewr in the test case itself
# [17:30] <fantasai> the second level is mainly about copying it into the main repo
# [17:30] * fantasai wonders if everyone's on irc, or if someone should read her comments
# [17:30] * dsinger wonders who is speaking with that echo?
# [17:31] <glazou> dsinger: everyone
# [17:31] <glazou> :)
# [17:31] <fantasai> peter's breaking up, too
# [17:31] * fantasai can hear everyone else fine
# [17:31] * sylvaing is glad there actually is an echo and it's not just yesterday's guinness
# [17:31] <Zakim> -anne
# [17:32] <fantasai> it should mean that you looked at the test and approve of it
# [17:32] <Bert> Peter: Confused about the "reviewer" link: is that marking review or approval? Or both?
# [17:32] <fantasai> at least
# [17:32] <fantasai> that was the goal
# [17:32] <Bert> Peter: And the "contributor" link?
# [17:32] <fantasai> the main purpose of the reviewer link isn't to say who revieed the test for posterity
# [17:32] <fantasai> it's so that someone knows the test has been approved
# [17:32] <fantasai> "contributor" doesn't exist
# [17:32] <fantasai> we are using "author'
# [17:33] <Bert> Sylvain: OK, so there is no "contributor." Fine.
# [17:33] <fantasai> The *point*
# [17:33] <fantasai> of this link
# [17:33] <fantasai> was to mark "this test has been reviewed"
# [17:33] <Bert> Peter/Melinda: Is this for all existing tests as well?
# [17:33] <fantasai> without creating a new system for recording which test have been reviewed
# [17:34] <Bert> Steve: Do the tests already have "author" links?
# [17:34] <Bert> melinda: Yes, I think they do.
# [17:34] <fantasai> yes, they have "author" links
# [17:34] <Bert> Fantasai: Yes, all tests have "author." I put them in.
# [17:35] <Bert> Fantasai: Goal is not to know who reviewed, but to approve.
# [17:35] <Bert> Fantasai: There were other ideas, such as a wiki page. I don't really care about the mechnaism, but we need some way to track.
# [17:35] <Bert> Fantasai: Depending on who is the reviewer I may or may not do another review myself.
# [17:36] <Bert> Melinda: So "reviewer" means approval.
# [17:36] <Bert> Steve: Except when reviewer makes changes inthe process.
# [17:36] <Bert> Melinda: But then you would use an "author" link reahter than reviewer, wouldn't you?
# [17:36] <Bert> Steve: OK, I see.
# [17:37] <Bert> Fantasai: The fixes by a reviewer need to be reviewed, by the original author, e.g.
# [17:37] <Bert> Fantasai: We could put a date in comments or something.
# [17:38] <Bert> Steve: Idea is to know that last reviewer is not not the same as the last author.
# [17:38] <Bert> Steve: Author has signed off that *he* believes it is correct. Just need somebody else after that.
# [17:39] <Bert> Steve: Can we put a date field in the link?
# [17:39] <Bert> Fantasai: A comment on the same line migfht work.
# [17:39] <Bert> Steve: Or just an unknown attribute?
# [17:39] <Bert> Fantasai: It needs to validate.
# [17:40] <Bert> Fantasai/Steve: OK, so a date in a comment, then.
# [17:40] <fantasai> <link rel="author reviewer" title="Elika Etemad"/>
# [17:40] <ChrisL> it will do
# [17:40] <fantasai> meaning "everything looks ok except the stuff I changed, and the stuff I changed needs to be reviewed"
# [17:41] * dsinger that is a GREAT sound effect
# [17:41] <Bert> Fantasai: rel="author reviewer" (plus a date) means I reviewed everything except for the parts I changed.
# [17:41] <Bert> Steve: and thus rel="reviewer" means you did not change anything.
# [17:42] <Bert> Fantasai: I'm working on a Perl script to add anything you need to add.
# [17:42] <fantasai> That was a side-comment to Melinda
# [17:42] <Bert> Steve: Can you point to example?
# [17:43] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/format
# [17:44] <fantasai> Topic: Matrix Layout
# [17:44] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0135.html
# [17:44] <Bert> Topic: matrix layout
# [17:44] <Bert> Fantasai: I agree with the comments Bert sent.
# [17:44] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0183.html
# [17:45] <Bert> Peter: It looks like an itneresting idea. Would it fit? and so where?
# [17:45] <Bert> Steve: We have to talk about Grid and Template at the same time.
# [17:46] <Bert> Steve: Maybe not urgent and better for a meeting.
# [17:46] <Bert> Daniel: Is MS still working on Grid? HAven't heard from Alex in a while.
# [17:46] <Bert> Sylvain: Yes, still interesting, but CSS 2.1 takes all resources right now.
# [17:47] <Bert> Sylvain: Alex should be at ftf in June.
# [17:47] <Bert> Steve: I haven't reviewed the new proposal yet.
# [17:47] <fantasai> Melinda: I think we should put these three proposals side by side and compare their pros and cons
# [17:47] <Bert> Melinda: Putting the three together at a ftf seems a good idea, indeed. Towards some combination of them.
# [17:48] <Bert> Steve: And GCPM seems to have some stuff as well.
# [17:48] <Bert> Bert: Yes moveto/pullfrom and similar ideas.
# [17:49] <fantasai> It seems to me this matrix proposal is just like template layout, except with the added ability to overlap elements
# [17:49] <Bert> Melnda: There is a need for improved layout techniques, but we need to be clear about our objectives.
# [17:49] * Quits: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.80.247) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021906])
# [17:49] <Bert> Steve: Peter, is that what you meant when you asked about how it fit?
# [17:50] <Bert> Peter: Yes, ftf seems reasonable. But also wants to know who is interested at the moment.
# [17:50] <Bert> Fantasai: We should look at the proposal and foxus on use cases, but not focus on syntax too much now.
# [17:51] <Bert> Fantasai: Maybe the matrix things can be done by extending layout eleshwre.
# [17:51] <Bert> Sylvain: I heard there was interest in this stuff.
# [17:51] <Bert> Steve: It has alwasy been clear that people want this. Less clear if there are implementers for it.
# [17:52] <sylvaing> i.e. web designers came up during and after the CSS3 panel at SXSW to express interest in Jonathan Snook's proposal
# [17:52] <Bert> Steve: I mean: as a priority.
# [17:52] <Bert> Peter: So to summarize: I hear interest in evaluating the proposal. Don't hear anythign about it being implemented soon.
# [17:53] <Bert> Peter: I suggest we pencil it in as a topic for the ftf.
# [17:54] <Bert> Steve: SOmebody should repsond to Jonathan to say we probably won't talk about it until June.
# [17:54] <Bert> Peter: Who will represent the matrix proposal?
# [17:54] <Bert> Steve: We can invite Jonathan...
# [17:54] <Bert> Steve: Othe rquestion: are there patents involved?
# [17:55] <Bert> Bert: Anybody know Jonathan Snook?
# [17:55] <Bert> All: No, never met him.
# [17:55] <sylvaing> http://snook.ca/
# [17:56] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0133.html
# [17:56] <Bert> Topic: Counter-increment
# [17:57] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0194.html
# [17:57] <Bert> Fantasai: David Baron posted proposals.
# [17:57] <melinda> *jonathan is a member of the CSS 11 ;-)
# [17:57] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0194.html
# [17:57] <fantasai> I'm in favor of option 1
# [17:58] <Bert> Steve: I like option 1
# [17:58] <Bert> Fantasai: Same question for other keywords, such as 'inherit'
# [17:59] <fantasai> so any objections? :)
# [17:59] * dsinger is appallingly ignorant, uninformed, and unopinionated on this subject
# [17:59] <Bert> Bert: Leaning to option 1 as well.
# [18:00] <Bert> Melinda: So what does this mean for 'inherit'?
# [18:00] <Bert> Steve: Can't use it is a coutner name.
# [18:00] <Bert> s/coutner/counter/
# [18:00] <Bert> Chris: Can you escape it? With a backslash?
# [18:00] <Bert> Fantasai: No.
# [18:01] <Bert> Sylvain: What's the use case for 'counter-increment: none'?
# [18:02] <Bert> Fantasai: I can't think of a reaosn for a counter named "none", but I can certainly see a case to explicitly set 'counter-increment' to 'none' to stop the coutner from incrementing.
# [18:02] <Bert> Sylvain: I don't get the 'counter-inc: none 1' rule.
# [18:02] <Bert> Peter: That is just invalid.
# [18:03] * dsinger has a conflicting call starting now, alas. sorry, bye
# [18:03] <Bert> Peter: I think that's implied by the prose, but not explicit.
# [18:03] <Bert> Melinda: We need some words to describe 'none' then.
# [18:03] <Bert> Peter: Yes, agree.
# [18:04] <Bert> Peter: Bert, can you write text?
# [18:04] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [18:04] <Bert> Bert: OK.
# [18:04] <Bert> Fantasai: I'll note it in the issues list.
# [18:05] <Bert> Peter: Shoudl be enough if Bert sends it to www-style. We'll see what comments, if any, it gets.
# [18:05] <Bert> s/Shoudl/Should/
# [18:05] <Zakim> -??P22
# [18:05] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:05] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
# [18:05] <Zakim> -Daniel_Glazman
# [18:05] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:05] <fantasai> RESOLVED: accept proposal 1, Bert to come up with wording, submit for review to www-style; no objections mean accepted
# [18:05] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:05] <szilles> Steve has probable regrets for next week due to AB meeting
# [18:05] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:06] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [18:06] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, Daniel_Glazman, sylvaing, ChrisL, anne, Bert, fantasai, Melinda_Grant, Shepazu, SteveZ
# [18:07] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.103) (Ping timeout)
# [18:10] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.105) (Ping timeout)
# [18:11] * Quits: glazou (glazou@80.118.184.70) (Quit: glazou)
# [18:14] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.104)
# [18:17] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:18] <Bert> rrsagent, make logs public
# [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Bert
# [18:18] <Bert> Meeting: CSS telcon
# [18:19] <Bert> Chair: Peter
# [18:27] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910])
# [18:31] <Bert> Regrets: Dean, Tona, Molly
# [18:32] <Bert> s/Topic: today's agenda/Topic: Today's agenda/
# [18:33] <Bert> s/Topic: test review process/Topic: Test review process/
# [18:33] <Bert> s/RESOLUTION:/RESOLVED:/
# [18:33] <Bert> s/Topic: 3D transforms//
# [18:33] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Core Breach)
# [18:34] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:35] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
# [18:35] <Bert> s/Beryt/Bert/
# [18:35] <Bert> s/CAn/Can/
# [18:37] <Bert> s/anim, 3D, 2D and transtions/Animations, 3D Transforms, 2D Transforms, and Transitions/
# [18:37] <Bert> s/Last weeks/At last week's/
# [18:38] <Bert> s/RESOLVED:/RESOLUTION:/g
# [18:39] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:40] <Bert> s/But not middle/But not in the middle/
# [18:40] <Bert> s/tets format/test format/
# [18:41] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [18:42] <Bert> s/Peter\/Melinda/Peter & Melinda/
# [18:42] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:42] <Bert> s/melinda/Melinda/g
# [18:43] <Bert> s/mechnaism/mechanism/
# [18:43] <Bert> s/ inthe/ in the/
# [18:43] <Bert> s/reahter/rather/
# [18:44] <Bert> s/migfht/might/
# [18:44] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:45] <Bert> s|Peter/Melinda|Peter & Melinda|
# [18:45] <Bert> s|Fantasai/Steve|Fantasai & Steve|
# [18:46] <Bert> s/and so where/and if so where/
# [18:47] <Bert> s/better for a meeting/better for a ftf meeting/
# [18:47] <Bert> s/HAven't/Haven't/
# [18:47] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [18:47] <Bert> s/Sylvain: Yes, still interesting/Sylvain: Yes, still interested/
# [18:48] <Bert> s/foxus/focus/
# [18:49] <Bert> s/eleshwre/elsewhere/
# [18:49] <Bert> s/anythign/anything/
# [18:50] <Bert> s/SOmebody should repsond/Somebody should respond/
# [18:50] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
# [18:50] <Bert> s/Othe rquestion/Other question/
# [18:51] <Bert> s/reaosn/reason/
# [18:51] <Bert> s/coutner/counter/
# [18:51] <Bert> s/counter-inc: none 1/counter-increment: none 1/
# [18:52] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:53] <Bert> s|s/Peter\/Melinda/Peter & Melinda/||
# [18:54] <Bert> RESOLUTION: accept proposal 1, Bert to come up with wording, submit for review to www-style; no objections means accepted.
# [18:54] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:55] <Bert> s/Shoudl/Should/
# [18:56] <Bert> s/alwasy/always/
# [18:57] <Bert> s/coutner/counter/
# [18:57] <Bert> s/anythign/anything/
# [18:57] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/18-css-minutes.html Bert
# [18:57] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [19:36] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [19:36] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [19:40] <shepazu> where should I send a coordination email about Transforms? which list?
# [19:52] <fantasai> w3c-css-wg
# [19:52] <fantasai> shepazu: we don't do anministrivia on www-style
# [19:53] <shepazu> ok, thanks, fantasai-chan
# [19:53] <fantasai> s/anministrivia/administrivia/
# [19:53] <Bert> Doug, I first need PLH's approval, but we can do the coord here on IRC as well, for speed.
# [19:54] <shepazu> Bert: I mean long-term, maybe a Transforms Task Force
# [19:54] <Bert> I see.
# [19:54] <shepazu> Dean raised the idea tht it might be better if there were one spec
# [19:54] <shepazu> for SVG and CSS
# [19:55] <fantasai> ok, just make sure technical discussion gets to www-style
# [19:56] <shepazu> right
# [20:01] <dsinger> we can split the lists and have task-force is it overwhelms css or svg. at the moment, more discussion on CSS specs would be welcome...
# [20:05] <shepazu> dsinger: since cross-posting is such a pain, I'm really starting to think a TF is the best way forward at this point
# [20:06] <shepazu> and that might be good to establish *before* the publications, so we can indicate in the specs that discussion should take place on the Transforms TF mailing list
# [20:06] <shepazu> forming a TF is a trivial matter... I could have one running today
# [20:06] <dsinger> ah, yes, hm
# [20:06] <shepazu> assuming that we get approval by both WGs
# [20:07] <shepazu> a TF doesn't require any more overhead than making a page (like a charter) that describes it, and making a mailing list
# [20:08] <shepazu> it doesn't have to go to the AC for approval or anything
# [20:08] <dsinger> right, but we lose the 'accidental oversight' of the people on SVG and CSS lists who don't join, that's all
# [20:08] <shepazu> there is that
# [20:09] <shepazu> but making a public statement on both those lists inviting people to join should help
# [20:09] <dsinger> I'm easy; I hadn't thought of the cross-posting problem.
# [20:10] <shepazu> and for those people chiefly interested in the transforms, it makes it much more manageable to track
# [20:10] <shepazu> I think it increases oversight
# [20:10] <dsinger> yes, a different header. should the discussion of transitions and animations happen there also?
# [20:11] <shepazu> dsinger: I thought about that
# [20:11] <dsinger> ...and...
# [20:11] <shepazu> don't have an opinion on whether it's better to have a topic-specific TF, or one that covers all these CSS-SVG overlaps
# [20:12] <dsinger> it's just that we are also trying to maintain obvious family-resemblance between these
# [20:12] <shepazu> yeah, makes sense
# [20:13] <dsinger> 'primarily to discuss transforms, but also when appropriate transitions and animations, or indeed other areas of css-svg mutual interest'?
# [20:13] <shepazu> wfm
# [20:13] <shepazu> Bert, what do you think about this?
# [20:13] <Bert> About what?
# [20:13] <shepazu> the price of tea in china
# [20:13] <shepazu> also, forming an joint CSS-SVG TF
# [20:14] * Bert reading back up...
# [20:14] <shepazu> to coordinate on Transforms, Animations, et al
# [20:14] <shepazu> or a couple of TFs
# [20:14] <shepazu> I think probably a single one, with a dedicated mailing list, is best, now that I ponder on it
# [20:15] <shepazu> dsinger, like CSS-SVG TF, keep it simple
# [20:15] <dsinger> we could call it the stylin' vector group (svg), or the combin' stylin' and scalin' :-) (CSS)
# [20:15] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [20:16] <shepazu> lol dsinger
# [20:16] <dsinger> bonjour, ca va?
# [20:16] <shepazu> I just summoned plh into the room to discuss it more
# [20:16] * plh notes that this channel doesn't use colors, fonts, or effects. that's disappointing
# [20:16] <plh> bonjour David
# [20:16] <Bert> :-)
# [20:17] <Bert> Actually, when Doug talks to me, he does so in green. And when you joined, you did so in blue...
# [20:17] * dsinger can't even be bothered to type cedillas, let alon ecolours
# [20:17] <plh> doug, yes, speaking of summoning, who would you like me to doom for the next 50 years?
# [20:17] <shepazu> plh: dsinger and propose to make a CSS-SVG Coordination TF, to discuss Transforms, Animations, Transitions, and other areas
# [20:17] <shepazu> oh, plh, the list is so long...
# [20:17] * dsinger wants to be yellow
# [20:17] <shepazu> coward.
# [20:18] <plh> as I said, if the CSS and SVG folks are ok with a TF, I'm fine with it as well
# [20:18] <shepazu> I don't do anything special to my IRC client... it all looks black-and-white to me
# [20:19] <shepazu> plh: it might be good to establish the TF *before* the publications, so we can indicate in the specs that discussion should take place on the TF mailing list
# [20:19] <shepazu> what do y'all think?
# [20:19] <Bert> Given that some people will want to work on transformations and we can't forbid them, a TF is probably the best way to avoid losing time for CSS 2.1 and other high-prio specs on the main CSS telcons.
# [20:19] * shepazu changes his font color to white
# [20:19] <dsinger> yes, once we ask for comments, we're stuck with where we ask them to go.
# [20:20] <dsinger> it is trivially easy to make CSS and SVG the expansion of another email address, but very hard to reverse a decision to ask for cross-posting
# [20:21] <shepazu> and like I said, it prevents overwhelming the more general SVG and CSS mailing lists, and allows people to track in a more issue-centered manner
# [20:21] <plh> I could propose public-css-svg-2dtransforms-3dtransforms-animation-transition-task-force@w3.org for a mailing list name
# [20:21] * dsinger has a patent on the u;tra-cool white text with wide white margins on a white background
# [20:21] <shepazu> plh: sold!
# [20:21] <shepazu> dsinger: I don't think you want to talk to me about patents right now ... :)
# [20:21] <dsinger> s please on transition and animation, otherwise it's too short
# [20:22] <plh> lol
# [20:22] <dsinger> but the first word: public or member-only?
# [20:22] <plh> I'd prefer public
# [20:22] <plh> unless we have a really really good reason not to
# [20:23] <shepazu> public-css-svg-tf@w3.org
# [20:23] <Bert> I don't care about the name, except: why "public-"? Participants must be member of either SVG or CSS, mustn't they?
# [20:23] <Bert> (Talking about patents...)
# [20:23] <shepazu> Bert: naming convention
# [20:23] <dsinger> I tend to think that they should be, yes. they must be under the patent policy to be on the list :-)
# [20:24] <shepazu> what about public comment?
# [20:24] <plh> bert, yes participants must be from css or svg, but the css wg is supposed to work in public. creating a task force doesn't change that fact
# [20:24] <shepazu> as is the SVG WG
# [20:24] <dsinger> public comments come from when a real WG publishes something for public comment
# [20:25] <dsinger> ok, got it
# [20:25] <plh> note public- doesn't mean you have to open the list to everyone. we have public mailing list where posting is restricted to group participants
# [20:26] <shepazu> (for instance public-svg-wg)
# [20:26] <plh> it depends on much emails you're willing to get in your inbox sometimes
# [20:26] <plh> s//how/
# [20:26] <plh> s/much/many/
# [20:26] <dsinger> ok, there's public readability (good, both groups are), public comment (good), and public contribution (bad, IPR issues)
# [20:26] <shepazu> honestly, I think having a public list, open to public comments, is best
# [20:26] <shepazu> dsinger: right
# [20:26] <dsinger> if the documents are publicly visible, yes
# [20:27] <Bert> I wouldn't want to be on a task force whose archives are public. Better ask the potential members if they want to be.
# [20:27] <shepazu> Bert: huh?
# [20:27] <plh> Bert, let me be clearer then: I would strongly object if the mailing list archive was Member only. it's against the CSS charter
# [20:28] <dsinger> if the archives and membership is private, but the public can send, all it takes is comeone to respond to public submissions with a 'thank you for your comments'
# [20:28] <dsinger> s/is/are/
# [20:28] <Bert> Making the discussions public means the *real* discussions aren't archived.
# [20:28] * shepazu accuses Bert of fuddy-duddism
# [20:29] <plh> are you telling me that the real discussion for the css working group aren't archived?
# [20:29] <shepazu> ok, kids, let's get back on topic
# [20:29] <dsinger> join a call sometime :-)
# [20:30] <dsinger> this is close enough to a policy question that I feel plh et al. can work it out
# [20:30] <shepazu> dsinger: I understand your concerns about IPR from non-WG members, but how do you propose to avoid that and still take public feedback?
# [20:30] <plh> we all know that lots of things don't get archived. but technical discussion should be backed by public archived.
# [20:30] <plh> s/ved/ves/
# [20:30] <dsinger> I can't, that's why I said what I did...
# [20:30] <shepazu> heh
# [20:31] <dsinger> this tf also has calls, an irc channel, separate agenda/minutes, or what?
# [20:31] <dsinger> wiki
# [20:31] <plh> you can even create a twitter account for it :)
# [20:31] <dsinger> that's when me (and my calendar) start getting twitchy
# [20:31] <shepazu> would you object to a public forum for all discussions (WG and public), considering that we have our w3c posting-policy in place?
# [20:32] <shepazu> dsinger: yes, calls as appropriate
# [20:32] <shepazu> not necessarily regular
# [20:32] * Bert got to go. Last shop closes in 30 minutes and fridge is empty.
# [20:32] <shepazu> I'd assume we'd have to adjust to Oz time
# [20:33] <shepazu> since that's where the editors are
# [20:33] <dsinger> ok, we're dealing with a hypothetical. it can start public and be fixed if problems arise (e.g. people can be asked to join if they start contributing, or the list can be closed down to private if it gets out of control)
# [20:33] <shepazu> Bert: ok, so, a TF is okay with CSS?
# [20:33] <dsinger> I don't think there is a very high risk
# [20:33] <dsinger> and what we lack right now is enough feedback
# [20:33] <shepazu> dsinger: you hit the nail on the head
# [20:33] <Bert> I expect CSS WG is OK with a TF, yes.
# [20:33] <shepazu> we ned to find out what exactly people want
# [20:34] * plh has to step out
# [20:34] <shepazu> ok, I'll ask the SVG WG tomorrow, and put all the pieces together
# [20:34] <shepazu> thanks, folks
# [20:34] <dsinger> thx all
# [20:34] <shepazu> dsinger: get dino to join the SVG WG :D
# [20:34] * dsinger is going to lunch. hope yours is/was/will be nice
# [20:34] <dsinger> he's agreed, I just have to do it
# [20:35] <dsinger> he's an early riser :-(
# [20:44] <shepazu> cool, dsinger
# [21:27] * Parts: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ex-Chat)
# [21:38] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
# [21:57] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.47.246.6) (Ping timeout)
# [21:57] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.47.246.6)
# [21:57] <fantasai> shepazu: public-css-svg-tf or whatever it was seems fine to me, please make it public read-write
# [21:57] <shepazu> fantasai: that was certainly my intent
# [21:58] <shepazu> I guess we need the whole CSS WG to chime in
# [21:58] <shepazu> I still wonder if there might be a nicer name
# [21:58] <fantasai> probably, although at this point I doubt you'd get much objection from us wrt making it public
# [21:58] <shepazu> hmm... how about public-svg-css-tf... yes, that has a much nicer ring...
# [21:59] <fantasai> hehe
# [21:59] <shepazu> flows trippingly off the tongue...
# [21:59] <fantasai> public-transforms-tf
# [21:59] <fantasai> transitions are a form of transformation :)
# [21:59] <shepazu> lol
# [21:59] <fantasai> so are animations
# [22:00] <shepazu> public-dynamic-tf
# [22:00] <fantasai> but transforms arent' dynamic
# [22:00] <shepazu> public-awesome-tf
# [22:00] <fantasai> public-4d-tf
# [22:00] <shepazu> lol
# [22:01] <shepazu> public-presentation-tf?
# [22:01] <shepazu> nah
# [22:01] <fantasai> no, that would swallow both our groups
# [22:02] * fantasai kicks off a reboot since her camera isn't cooperating
# [22:06] <anne> I'd think it would be pretty hard to find a member interested in transforms/transitions who wants it to happen in Member-only space
# [22:07] <anne> so far discussions have taken place on public lists...
# [22:21] <shepazu> anne: I don't think that's really much of a point for debate... dsinger had some reservations about it, but I think I've convinced him that it's for the best
# [22:21] <shepazu> the open question is whether the CSS WG wants to form a joint TF at all
# [22:22] <shepazu> I'm pretty sure the SVG WG is cool with it
# [22:53] <anne> arronei, RFC2119 words don't apply to tests
# [22:53] * anne was afraid this was going to be hard
# [23:14] <fantasai> huh?
# [23:14] <fantasai> anne: pointer?
# [23:15] <anne> public-css-testsuite
# [23:15] <anne> I'm not sure I want to review Microsoft tests anymore
# [23:15] <fantasai> heh
# [23:16] <fantasai> They didn't train under Hixie, that's the problem. :)
# [23:17] * Hixie would just explain that the guidelines already say how the tests are to be written, and that that's that
# [23:20] <fantasai> a lot of them are open to interpretation
# [23:20] <fantasai> anyway
# [23:20] <fantasai> anne: I just finished reading Arron's post. What he says makes sense to me.
# [23:22] <fantasai> anne: It's not totally consistent with what we've been doing, but we've been pretty inconsistent about these things anyway.
# [23:23] <fantasai> anne: also Melinda's point about precision is valid
# [23:24] <fantasai> anne: especially since we plan to hook up the CSS tests to a harness for non-QA-trained people to run
# [23:25] <fantasai> anne: The guidelines do require not needing to understand CSS in order to pass/fail the test.
# [23:25] <fantasai> anne: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html#self-explanatory
# [23:25] <anne> right
# [23:34] <Hixie> i think his point about rfc2119 is just looking for trouble where there is none personally
# [23:34] <Hixie> but i haven't followed the rest of the thread
# [23:35] <fantasai> I don't think we need to fix anything necessarily, but if he went through the trouble of figuring out what standard text to use and had a reason to avoid RFC2119
# [23:35] <fantasai> I don't think we have a good reason to ask him to go back and use it
# [23:36] <Hixie> what text does he use?
# [23:36] <anne> <p>Test passes if the "Filler Text" below is green.</p>
# [23:36] <anne> <div>Filler Text</div>
# [23:36] <anne> (there are variants on this theme)
# [23:37] <Hixie> I prefer correct english grammar and no indirection, e.g. "This test passes if this text is green." but other than that it seems fine
# [23:37] <Hixie> Filler text should be silver and unimportant
# [23:37] <fantasai> yeah, I wouldn't use "filler text"
# [23:37] <fantasai> maybe "Green Text" or something
# [23:38] <fantasai> but I think the "test passes if" wording is fine in place of "should"
# [23:38] <fantasai> anne: you don't have to fix all the tests yourself, you can post problems that are common to the mailing list and ask Arron to fix them
# [23:39] <anne> I know, but the problem is that we seem to have disagreement over simple things
# [23:39] <anne> and this is not the first time
# [23:40] <anne> and I'm not too optimistic about further exchanges
# [23:42] <anne> In related news I'm still interested in hearing back on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Feb/0011.html
# [23:44] * fantasai is so not getting any sleep tonight then :)
# [23:44] * fantasai looks
# [23:45] <anne> I'd go to bed :)
# [23:45] <fantasai> oh, that
# [23:46] <fantasai> well, looks like you just need to wait for Arron to pay attention and respond
# [23:48] <anne> yup
# [23:48] <fantasai> poke him on IRC in #css-test if you want
# [23:48] <fantasai> or here
# [23:48] <fantasai> not sure what his client settings are though
# [23:48] <fantasai> anyway
# [23:48] <fantasai> bedtime
# [23:49] <fantasai> I'll be offline for a few days possibly a week (but hopefully not more than 24 hours, depends on the dialup situation)
# [23:49] <fantasai> ping me on IRC if there's something I really should pay atention to, I might not be able to wade through all my email quickly enough
# [23:50] <fantasai> but I'll check the IRC client, too
# [23:50] <anne> there's no hurry with anything I think
# [23:50] <fantasai> k
# [23:50] <fantasai> have fun
# [23:50] <fantasai> :P
# [23:50] <anne> cheers, you too, whatever you're up to
# [23:51] <fantasai> holidays with cousins :)
# Session Close: Thu Mar 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)