/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-04-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  38. # [17:58] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  39. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/01-css-irc
  40. # [17:58] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  41. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  42. # [17:58] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
  43. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  44. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P7
  45. # [18:00] <Zakim> +dsinger
  46. # [18:00] <Zakim> +plinss
  47. # [18:00] <fantasai> zakim, ??p7 is me
  48. # [18:00] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  49. # [18:00] * Joins: dsinger (mobile@67.218.109.10)
  50. # [18:01] <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
  51. # [18:01] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  52. # [18:01] <Zakim> +glazou
  53. # [18:02] <dsinger> Is this co-ed student services?
  54. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  55. # [18:03] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (44%), glazou (16%)
  56. # [18:03] <dsinger> Zakim, who is noisy?
  57. # [18:03] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  58. # [18:03] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  59. # [18:03] <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (9%), glazou (5%)
  60. # [18:03] <glazou> fantasai, we have a lot of noise coming from your phone
  61. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  62. # [18:03] <anne> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
  63. # [18:03] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  64. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
  65. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  66. # [18:04] <sylvaing> Zakim, 1.206.324 is sylvaing
  67. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named '1.206.324'
  68. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  69. # [18:04] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  70. # [18:04] <fantasai> glazou, ok muted
  71. # [18:04] <sylvaing> Zakim, +1.206.324.aaaa is sylvaing
  72. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, dsinger (muted), plinss, glazou, anne, +1.206.324.aaaa, [Microsoft]
  73. # [18:04] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  74. # [18:04] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  75. # [18:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, Zakim, RRSAgent, arronei, sylvaing, CesarAcebal, glazou, myakura, MikeSmith, jdaggett, anne, plinss_, krijnh, shepazu, Bert, plinss, fantasai, Hixie, trackbot
  76. # [18:04] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  77. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  78. # [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  79. # [18:05] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  80. # [18:06] * Joins: melinda (melinda.gr@67.47.246.6)
  81. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +98567aabb
  82. # [18:07] <CesarAcebal> Zakim, +98567aabb is CesarAcebal
  83. # [18:07] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  84. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Howcome
  85. # [18:09] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.30.11)
  86. # [18:09] <glazou> ScribeNick glazou
  87. # [18:09] <anne> scribe: glazou
  88. # [18:09] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  89. # [18:09] <glazou> plinss: additions to agenda ? howcome I got your note ?
  90. # [18:10] <fantasai> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
  91. # [18:10] <glazou> fantasai: brad kemper's proposal for border-image
  92. # [18:10] <dsinger> Steve z and i reached agreement
  93. # [18:10] <dsinger> Later in call if time...
  94. # [18:10] <glazou> agenda item 1 : test case selector issue
  95. # [18:10] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Mar/0002.html
  96. # [18:10] <dbaron> I haven't read Brad Kemper's proposal yet; it didn't work very well when catching up on my email on the airplane...
  97. # [18:10] <glazou> plinss: had a chance to read the thread ?
  98. # [18:11] <glazou> glazou: I did
  99. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
  100. # [18:11] <glazou> glazou: Bert summarized the issue, XML cannot make an attribute start with a digit
  101. # [18:11] <glazou> anne: yes, impossible
  102. # [18:11] <sylvaing> invalid, even
  103. # [18:12] <glazou> anne: it's even invalid in html as well
  104. # [18:12] <anne> (that was arron)
  105. # [18:12] <glazou> s/anne/arron
  106. # [18:12] <glazou> arron: I totally agree the case is an invalid case but we have a problem where we cannot test invalid scenarios
  107. # [18:12] <glazou> arron: this has to be valid xhtml
  108. # [18:13] <glazou> arronei: so how do you test invalid scenarios
  109. # [18:13] <glazou> arronei: how do you test an attribute starting with hyphen, valid scenario ?
  110. # [18:13] <glazou> anne: you can't
  111. # [18:13] <glazou> arronei: the spec needs to change to remove this restrictions or ...
  112. # [18:13] <glazou> dbaron: the rule is testable
  113. # [18:13] <glazou> dbaron: you can test with another rule
  114. # [18:14] <glazou> arronei: still, you can't test an attribute starting with an hyphen
  115. # [18:14] <glazou> dbaron: find another language where it is allowed
  116. # [18:14] <glazou> arronei: test suite is xhtml
  117. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: or don't worry about it
  118. # [18:14] <glazou> dbaron: we're looking in interoperable implems in languages applying to css
  119. # [18:14] <glazou> arronei: I understand but how do you test that hyphen scenario ? which language ?
  120. # [18:15] <glazou> dbaron: we don't test it, untestable requirement
  121. # [18:15] <glazou> dbaron: we can test that it's an accepted selector with another valid selector in same rule
  122. # [18:15] <glazou> dbaron: just like p, :not(p)
  123. # [18:15] <glazou> arronei: but we cannot prove which selector matched
  124. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: just like p:not(p), wher eyou can't prove that it doesn't match anything
  125. # [18:15] <glazou> arronei: no way to prove that
  126. # [18:15] <glazou> thx fantasai
  127. # [18:16] <glazou> arronei: then you have an ambiguous testcase
  128. # [18:16] <glazou> dbaron: in theory an implem could harcode the response and pass CSS test suite
  129. # [18:16] <glazou> anne: 2 tests with one having two selectors ina rule and another with only one
  130. # [18:16] <glazou> arronei: dependency issue
  131. # [18:17] <glazou> arronei: we end up with a dependency chain
  132. # [18:17] <fantasai> dbaron: but that implementation doesn't remotely implement CSS
  133. # [18:17] <glazou> anne: not a problem
  134. # [18:17] <glazou> anne: at least with html5 you can have attribute with a leading dash
  135. # [18:17] <glazou> anne: I think digits too
  136. # [18:17] <glazou> arronei: that would handle the valid case
  137. # [18:18] <glazou> arronei: the invalid has probably no good way of testing
  138. # [18:18] <glazou> sylvaing: you never really select because it's alrady dropped
  139. # [18:18] <glazou> sylvaing: spec says there is syntax error
  140. # [18:18] * Joins: mollydotcom (molly@66.210.6.25)
  141. # [18:18] <glazou> anne: you can match using an escape
  142. # [18:19] <glazou> plinss: perfectly valid css if you escape
  143. # [18:19] <glazou> plinss: should still not match siince the attr is not in the DOM
  144. # [18:19] <glazou> arronei: we need a markup language allowing that attribute
  145. # [18:19] * mollydotcom has delayed plane, in airport so can't phone in
  146. # [18:19] * Quits: howcome (howcome@80.203.30.11) (Ping timeout)
  147. # [18:19] <glazou> anne: two pbs : syntax error and limitations of markup
  148. # [18:19] <glazou> arronei: with html5 we should be able to test
  149. # [18:20] * Quits: dsinger (mobile@67.218.109.10) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
  150. # [18:20] <glazou> anne: I was more objecting with the way it cannot start with a digit
  151. # [18:20] <glazou> anne: section 5 says the selector is dropped
  152. # [18:20] <glazou> dbaron: chapter 5 says it should not match
  153. # [18:20] <glazou> dbaron: the syntactic requirement sentence ?
  154. # [18:20] <glazou> dbaron: yes
  155. # [18:21] <glazou> dbaron: not about matching
  156. # [18:21] <glazou> arronei: the entire chapter is about that
  157. # [18:21] <glazou> dbaron: and about the syntax of selectors
  158. # [18:21] <glazou> arronei: syntax is in chapter 4
  159. # [18:21] <glazou> dbaron: not entirely
  160. # [18:21] <glazou> arronei: I see
  161. # [18:21] <glazou> arronei: I'm ok with that
  162. # [18:21] <glazou> arronei: the way I need to deal with this is with html5
  163. # [18:21] <glazou> arronei: can we submit this as html5...
  164. # [18:22] <glazou> anne: in this case it's a syntax-level requirement
  165. # [18:22] <glazou> anne: not required on same page yet
  166. # [18:22] <glazou> arronei: error handling is important
  167. # [18:23] <glazou> dbaron: then there's already one test you failed so we catched the issue
  168. # [18:23] <glazou> arronei: I was discorrelating the chapters
  169. # [18:23] <glazou> arronei: if we fail that error case then according to ch5 you should not select either
  170. # [18:23] <glazou> arronei: if you fail error case in ch4 then you have to create the case to see what failed ? because of P or attribute selector ?
  171. # [18:24] <glazou> arronei: does it make sense to have in test suite ?
  172. # [18:24] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  173. # [18:24] <glazou> fantasai: it's good to avoid dependencies on other chapters of the spec
  174. # [18:24] <glazou> fantasai: here we are trying to capture a case related to another part of spec
  175. # [18:24] <dbaron> fantasai: ... if it's easy to do without going out of your way
  176. # [18:24] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  177. # [18:24] <glazou> fantasai: why you failed is an implementor's job
  178. # [18:24] <Zakim> -dsinger
  179. # [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  180. # [18:24] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  181. # [18:24] <glazou> fantasai: I don' think we should really break things down
  182. # [18:25] <glazou> fantasai: there's a limit to our efforts breaking things down
  183. # [18:25] <glazou> fantasai: does not need to happen in the test suite
  184. # [18:25] <glazou> arronei: I think for this case we're in agreement
  185. # [18:25] <glazou> arronei: I was in disagreement before
  186. # [18:26] <glazou> arronei: ok, I'll remove this test case
  187. # [18:26] <glazou> arronei: I need to dig in we have other similar cases like that one
  188. # [18:26] <glazou> arronei: I'll see if html5 works for cases
  189. # [18:26] <glazou> fantasai: we don't need to test cases that are not going to happen in real markup docs
  190. # [18:26] <dbaron> After "Attribute values must be identifiers or strings." we could add "(Otherwise, the selector is not valid CSS 2.1.)"
  191. # [18:26] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.30.11)
  192. # [18:26] <glazou> arronei: I disagree with that
  193. # [18:26] <glazou> glazou: I disagree too
  194. # [18:27] <anne> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  195. # [18:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see fantasai, plinss, glazou, anne, sylvaing, arronei, [Mozilla], CesarAcebal, Howcome, Melinda_Grant, [Apple]
  196. # [18:27] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  197. # [18:27] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  198. # [18:27] <glazou> arronei: we need to test every single part of spec, period
  199. # [18:28] <glazou> arronei: that needs to happen, otherwise we're not done
  200. # [18:28] <glazou> arronei: we need to test everything in the spec or we miss coverage
  201. # [18:28] <glazou> fantasai: in this case it'll be fine to note we were not able to test because of technology
  202. # [18:28] <glazou> sylvaing: limit yourselved to *ml markup because UA use that
  203. # [18:28] <sylvaing> that was anne
  204. # [18:29] <glazou> arronei: there could be other UA
  205. # [18:29] <glazou> s/sylvaing/anne
  206. # [18:29] <glazou> fantasai: in that case the implem will need its own test suite
  207. # [18:29] <glazou> arronei: it's trying to implement CSS with their own markup, they do not care
  208. # [18:29] <glazou> fantasai: we don't need to worry about it, that's their problem, they can contribute their own format of the test suite
  209. # [18:30] <glazou> arronei: but if we have a markup language that is compatible accross vendors, then I can test most of these scenarios
  210. # [18:30] <glazou> arronei: if I can create tests in html5, is that a problem ?
  211. # [18:30] <glazou> melinda, fantasai yes
  212. # [18:31] <glazou> melinda: too early on
  213. # [18:31] <glazou> anne: but the parsing rules are a decade old
  214. # [18:31] <glazou> anne: older than css
  215. # [18:31] <glazou> arronei: a limited number of cases: 6 or 7
  216. # [18:31] <glazou> arronei: nothing in the 17,000 cases list
  217. # [18:31] <glazou> melinda: I have a problem with that
  218. # [18:32] <glazou> anne: most browsers do html5, not an issue
  219. # [18:32] <glazou> fantasai: we can add them to the list of tests and see
  220. # [18:32] <glazou> fantasai: might have to index by hand
  221. # [18:32] * Zakim glazou, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  222. # [18:32] <glazou> Zakim: shhhhttttt
  223. # [18:32] <glazou> fantasai: problem is automatic indexing
  224. # [18:32] <glazou> fantasai: we can have a hand process for these ones
  225. # [18:33] <anne> (there's only 10-20 tests or so that need special syntax)
  226. # [18:33] <glazou> arronei: I think we have a solution here for the initial issue
  227. # [18:33] <anne> (which HTML5 allows)
  228. # [18:33] <sylvaing> naming convention for html5 testcases so the build scripts can handle them separately ?
  229. # [18:33] <glazou> arronei: most issues related to chapters 4 and 5
  230. # [18:33] <glazou> howcome: so what's the solution
  231. # [18:33] <glazou> arronei: remove the case
  232. # [18:33] <glazou> arronei: pursue the html5 possibility
  233. # [18:33] <glazou> howcome: sounds good
  234. # [18:33] <fantasai> I suggest a different file extension
  235. # [18:34] <glazou> arronei: one other issue is a test suite issue
  236. # [18:34] <fantasai> that way the build scripts will ignore them, and we can tell the makefile to just copy it
  237. # [18:34] <sylvaing> if that's sufficient, that's great
  238. # [18:34] <glazou> arronei: another invalid case with invalid markup because of invalid attr, the version attr on html
  239. # [18:34] <glazou> arronei: seems like a dtd bug
  240. # [18:34] <glazou> howcome: url ?
  241. # [18:35] <glazou> arronei: the version attr is valid for transitional
  242. # [18:35] <glazou> anne: some other attrs ?
  243. # [18:35] <glazou> arronei: wrt the attr() notation
  244. # [18:35] <glazou> arronei: the test fails
  245. # [18:35] <glazou> arronei: I am testing all attrs in html4 spec
  246. # [18:35] <glazou> arronei: because the dtd does not contain the version attr
  247. # [18:35] <dbaron> There's a version attribute?
  248. # [18:35] <glazou> ??:drop it
  249. # [18:35] <anne> yeah
  250. # [18:36] <anne> s/??/anne/
  251. # [18:36] <glazou> melinda: html only case ?
  252. # [18:36] <glazou> arronei: yes
  253. # [18:36] <glazou> glazou: report to html WG
  254. # [18:36] <arronei> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.3
  255. # [18:36] <glazou> anne: they won't care
  256. # [18:37] <glazou> arronei: not sure it's important
  257. # [18:37] <glazou> anne: just drop the test
  258. # [18:37] <sylvaing> DTD -> "Don't Test DOCTYPES"
  259. # [18:37] <glazou> LOL
  260. # [18:37] <glazou> arronei: ok with dropping it but it's such a great area
  261. # [18:38] <glazou> anne: well ok
  262. # [18:38] <glazou> arronei: only known attrs defined in html
  263. # [18:38] <glazou> anne: there are a bunch of invalid attrs too
  264. # [18:39] <glazou> melinda: worth lokking with html wg if it's intentional
  265. # [18:39] <glazou> s/lokking/looking
  266. # [18:39] <glazou> arronei: these tests are marked html only
  267. # [18:39] <glazou> melinda: xhtml as well ?
  268. # [18:39] <glazou> arronei: deprecated attrs are html only
  269. # [18:39] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@71.202.66.40)
  270. # [18:39] <glazou> arronei: odd case
  271. # [18:39] <glazou> melinda: maybe not worth keeping it
  272. # [18:40] <glazou> arronei: will ping html wg and we'll see
  273. # [18:40] <glazou> arronei: the issue is external to us
  274. # [18:40] <glazou> arronei: other issues with our tests ?
  275. # [18:41] <glazou> anne: regarding the normalization thing, there is a problem too
  276. # [18:41] <glazou> anne: not sure it has to be tested in the css test suite
  277. # [18:41] <glazou> arronei: I'll take a look at that, you have a pointer ?
  278. # [18:41] <glazou> melinda: I noticed the validator throws a warning for not having encoding
  279. # [18:42] <glazou> melinda: do we want to accept that ?
  280. # [18:42] <glazou> fantasai: we can add to build script and rely on http headers
  281. # [18:42] <glazou> s/and/or
  282. # [18:42] <anne> s/there is a problem too/there would be a DOM problem too most likely/
  283. # [18:42] <glazou> melinda: the warning occurs even if the http header is here
  284. # [18:42] <glazou> fantasai: ok, we can add to build script
  285. # [18:43] <glazou> fantasai: I prefer keeping the template unchanged
  286. # [18:43] <glazou> melinda: good answer
  287. # [18:43] * glazou has tired fingers, you speak all fast :)
  288. # [18:43] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai add UTF-8 header to build scripts
  289. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  290. # [18:43] * RRSAgent records action 1
  291. # [18:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Add UTF-8 header to build scripts [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-04-08].
  292. # [18:43] * dsinger ow noise
  293. # [18:43] <glazou> howcome: multicol issue ? I have to run
  294. # [18:43] * fantasai is impressed at how well glazou has kept up
  295. # [18:43] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  296. # [18:43] * glazou fantasai :)
  297. # [18:43] <glazou> plinss: yes
  298. # [18:43] * sylvaing ...against all odds....
  299. # [18:44] <glazou> plinss: new draft ?
  300. # [18:44] <glazou> howcome: yes, what we decided at ftf to use page properties to force column breaks
  301. # [18:44] <glazou> howcome: not elegant but will work w/o having to create new props
  302. # [18:44] <glazou> howcome: also about margin collapsing but almost same spec
  303. # [18:44] <glazou> howcome: draft since previous century
  304. # [18:45] <glazou> howcome: we have 3 probably 4 implems so it's about time
  305. # [18:45] <glazou> howcome: all comments have been resolved
  306. # [18:45] <glazou> howcome: time to move to LC
  307. # [18:45] <glazou> howcome: fantasai suggested long LC 8 weeks
  308. # [18:45] <glazou> melinda: we don't have a way to contain content to a page, important concern to me
  309. # [18:46] <glazou> howcome: uh ?
  310. # [18:46] <glazou> melinda: page break avoid in column scenario, we don't have any control on that
  311. # [18:46] <glazou> howcome: the spec does not say anything about that
  312. # [18:46] <glazou> howcome: adds a new keyword on two new properties to force column break
  313. # [18:46] <glazou> melinda: changes definitions of page-break-inside ?
  314. # [18:46] <glazou> howcome: means both
  315. # [18:46] <glazou> melinda: how ?
  316. # [18:47] <glazou> howcome: this is an old change, a year ago
  317. # [18:47] <glazou> howcome: not column break inside properties, reusing page break
  318. # [18:47] <glazou> melinda: disagreed during last ftf
  319. # [18:47] <glazou> fantasai: a column box cannot break across pages
  320. # [18:47] <glazou> fantasai: a block that cannot rbeak across columns cannot break across pages
  321. # [18:48] <glazou> howcome: you never really have control on that
  322. # [18:48] <glazou> melinda: but I want that control
  323. # [18:48] <glazou> howcome: somebody, alex?, could not see use cases for that
  324. # [18:48] <glazou> melinda: I responsed to that statement
  325. # [18:49] <glazou> fantasai: the way to solve this is to create a new keyword that avoids breaking across pages
  326. # [18:49] <glazou> melinda: fine
  327. # [18:49] <glazou> melinda: feeling not ok with long LC without that
  328. # [18:49] <glazou> howcome: no we did not discuss that
  329. # [18:49] <glazou> melinda: that's in the logs
  330. # [18:49] <glazou> howcome: we did not touch the draft in that area
  331. # [18:49] <glazou> melinda: let's look at current page-break-inside:avoid
  332. # [18:50] <glazou> howcome: paged media draft
  333. # [18:50] <glazou> fantasai: we discussed it
  334. # [18:50] <glazou> fantasai: we chose to apply to both column and pages
  335. # [18:50] <glazou> melinda: still disagreeing
  336. # [18:51] <glazou> fantasai: I prefer authors think about it
  337. # [18:51] <glazou> melinda: fine, but we don't have anecessary control here
  338. # [18:51] <glazou> melinda: I understand but that's all we have
  339. # [18:51] <glazou> howcome: you are right but we're not discussing the before after properties
  340. # [18:51] <glazou> howcome: I was happy to put in column-break-inside as well
  341. # [18:52] <glazou> howcome: that was the consensus ; happy to put it in again
  342. # [18:52] <glazou> howcome: continue in LC period
  343. # [18:52] <fantasai> I don't want a separate property here. If we need to add a keyword, we should add a keyword
  344. # [18:52] <glazou> melinda: we need as a WG to make one more change
  345. # [18:52] <glazou> melinda: are we expecting two LCs on this
  346. # [18:52] <glazou> howcome: no one
  347. # [18:52] * glazou laughs
  348. # [18:52] <glazou> howcome: one new kwd to represent that case ?
  349. # [18:52] <glazou> melinda: wonderful
  350. # [18:53] <dbaron> page-break-inside: avoid-page ?
  351. # [18:53] <glazou> melinda: I am saying there are multiple cases
  352. # [18:53] <glazou> melinda: we need independant controls for the column and the page cases
  353. # [18:53] <glazou> howcome: more comfortable well maybe not
  354. # [18:53] <glazou> howcome: I'm ok with having avoid kwd apply to both
  355. # [18:54] <glazou> melinda: as long as we have extra control, ok
  356. # [18:54] <glazou> howcome: we can add two kwds
  357. # [18:54] * glazou remembers the time howcome did not want extra kwds because of mobile phones' memory
  358. # [18:54] <glazou> fantasai: no use case for avoid column
  359. # [18:54] <sylvaing> if my recollection is right, alex was worried about possible contradictions in some scenarios i.e. column-break:avoid and page-break:auto
  360. # [18:54] * anne has to go, bye!
  361. # [18:54] <glazou> howcome: yes we do
  362. # [18:54] <glazou> fantasai: no we don't
  363. # [18:54] <Zakim> -anne
  364. # [18:55] <glazou> szilles: avoid column would necessarily avoid break pages
  365. # [18:55] <glazou> howcome: right
  366. # [18:55] <glazou> melinda: fine
  367. # [18:55] <glazou> fantasai: fine
  368. # [18:55] <glazou> szilles: property name ?
  369. # [18:55] <glazou> szilles: confusion with page-break-inside
  370. # [18:55] <glazou> szilles: I would say avoid says just page
  371. # [18:55] <glazou> szilles: and column says column and page
  372. # [18:55] <glazou> fantasai: discussion already happened
  373. # [18:55] <glazou> howcome: when ?
  374. # [18:55] <glazou> fantasai: ftf
  375. # [18:56] <glazou> howcome: I'm getting old, my memory is bad ;-)
  376. # [18:56] <glazou> howcome: put it in ?
  377. # [18:56] <glazou> melinda: wonderful
  378. # [18:56] * sylvaing even sylvaing remembers that so it'd definitely true
  379. # [18:56] <glazou> fantasai: ask molly if she has suggestion
  380. # [18:57] <glazou> melinda: we can change name in LC period
  381. # [18:57] <glazou> melinda: great to add functionailty
  382. # [18:57] <glazou> plinss: mark at risk ?
  383. # [18:57] <glazou> howcome: note we're not sure about the name of the kwd
  384. # [18:57] <glazou> melinda: if we have also implems we can test both otherwise we'll have to remove the column breaking one
  385. # [18:57] <glazou> szilles: another reason to use another name or the colimn breaking thing
  386. # [18:57] <glazou> howcome: avoid-all ?
  387. # [18:58] <glazou> melinda: it may or may not apply to table cells
  388. # [18:58] <glazou> fantasai: avoid-page for now and call for suggestions
  389. # [18:58] <glazou> howcome: another issue here
  390. # [18:58] <glazou> howcome: things in addition to page
  391. # [18:58] <glazou> plinss: we're running out of time
  392. # [18:59] <glazou> plinss: we agreed to add functionnality back in
  393. # [18:59] <glazou> plinss: agreement to move to LC ?
  394. # [18:59] <glazou> szilles: if avoid does both column and page and column is at risk then avoid will disappear
  395. # [18:59] <glazou> melinda: howcome and fantasai should come up with a proposal for next week
  396. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Howcome
  397. # [19:00] <glazou> ACTION howcome fantasai : come up with proposal for multicol
  398. # [19:00] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  399. # [19:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Fantasai : come up with proposal for multicol [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2009-04-08].
  400. # [19:00] <glazou> agenda item ARIA review
  401. # [19:00] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/
  402. # [19:00] <fantasai> My proposal is page-break-inside: auto | avoid | avoid-page-break
  403. # [19:00] <glazou> plinss: deadline is april 17th
  404. # [19:01] <glazou> plinss: please everyone with interest in it review it, do we want to discuss it a s a group ?
  405. # [19:01] <glazou> glazou: depends on the reviews themselves
  406. # [19:01] <glazou> plinss: yes
  407. # [19:01] <glazou> plinss: mailing list for comments
  408. # [19:01] <plinss> send comments to: public-pfwg-comments@w3.org
  409. # [19:02] <glazou> glazou: comments to css wg first or directly there ?
  410. # [19:02] <glazou> plinss: no strong opinion
  411. # [19:02] <glazou> fantasai: there cc wg
  412. # [19:02] <glazou> plinss: fair enough
  413. # [19:02] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  414. # [19:02] <glazou> plinss: I hope we don't enter controversy, please make sure you don't represent the WG
  415. # [19:03] <glazou> agenda item TP
  416. # [19:03] <glazou> plinss: we need to give an answer
  417. # [19:03] <glazou> plinss: so ?
  418. # [19:03] <dsinger> we surely should meet.
  419. # [19:03] * Quits: howcome (howcome@80.203.30.11) (Ping timeout)
  420. # [19:03] <glazou> szilles: we discussed it, meet with SVG when they meet
  421. # [19:03] <glazou> dbaron: what other WG said or Chris ?
  422. # [19:03] <glazou> glazou: headr nothing from them
  423. # [19:04] <glazou> plinss: SVG was not going to be there, I think
  424. # [19:04] <glazou> szilles: yes
  425. # [19:04] <glazou> szilles: a month earlier
  426. # [19:04] <glazou> fantasai: HTML and Webapps at TPAC
  427. # [19:04] <dsinger> what does "tech plenary" mean when major techs like SVG, CSS, don't meet?
  428. # [19:04] <glazou> szilles: nobody said that, I don't know
  429. # [19:04] * glazou dsinger XHTML2 rulz !
  430. # [19:05] <glazou> szilles: ping them ?
  431. # [19:06] <glazou> glazou: said yes on TPAC questionnaire for thu/fri
  432. # [19:06] <glazou> glazou: to leave us the door open
  433. # [19:06] <glazou> plinss: ok
  434. # [19:06] <glazou> plinss: if html and webapps we will attend
  435. # [19:06] <glazou> szilles: yes
  436. # [19:06] <glazou> szilles: and a separate meeting with SVG
  437. # [19:07] <glazou> glazou: not both ?
  438. # [19:07] <dsinger> we should encourage them to attend tpac in that case
  439. # [19:07] <glazou> szilles: no
  440. # [19:07] <glazou> szilles: the biggest bang for the buck
  441. # [19:07] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  442. # [19:07] <dsinger> We have a CSS f2f in Sophia Wed-Fri 24-26 June, right? I was starting on hotel and travel as that is peak season in the cote d'azur. I plan to arrive Wed. afternoon (from a 3G meeting in Sweden).
  443. # [19:07] <glazou> 3-5
  444. # [19:08] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  445. # [19:08] <glazou> dsinger: sigh will probably not be able to do it
  446. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
  447. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  448. # [19:08] <Zakim> -arronei
  449. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  450. # [19:08] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  451. # [19:08] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  452. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  453. # [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
  454. # [19:08] <fantasai> Bert?
  455. # [19:08] <Zakim> -fantasai
  456. # [19:09] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings#Upcoming_F2Fs doesn't have the SVG WG's plans
  457. # [19:09] * Parts: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.176.161)
  458. # [19:10] <glazou> fantasai: you have a script to turn the IRC minutes into something readable ?
  459. # [19:10] <shepazu> dbaron, they aren't settled yet, but I will put up a page about SVG Open, and we could discuss it at tomorrow's SVG WG telcon if that would help
  460. # [19:10] <glazou> hi shepazu
  461. # [19:10] <Zakim> -glazou
  462. # [19:11] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  463. # [19:11] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, plinss, fantasai, glazou, anne, arronei, sylvaing, David_Baron, CesarAcebal, Howcome, Melinda_Grant, SteveZ
  464. # [19:11] <shepazu> hi, glazou
  465. # [19:12] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  466. # [19:13] <glazou> rrsagent, draft minutes
  467. # [19:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/01-css-minutes.html glazou
  468. # [19:14] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  469. # [19:15] <shepazu> does anyone here have a good idea about how to make a mobile-friendly stylesheet for a site? I'm thinking that if I just drop my blog's sidebar down below the content area, that should suffice... but should I use media rules, or screen dimensions, or something else to switch on?
  470. # [19:18] <glazou> shepazu: you want a rendering w/o horizontal scrollbar ?
  471. # [19:18] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63) (Quit: Leaving...)
  472. # [19:18] <shepazu> glazou: I guess something like that would suffice... it's a WordPress blog, pretty narrow
  473. # [19:18] <glazou> looking for url
  474. # [19:18] <shepazu> http://www.schepers.cc/
  475. # [19:19] * Quits: mollydotcom (molly@66.210.6.25) (Quit: mollydotcom)
  476. # [19:20] <glazou> shepazu: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/minimo/components/ssr/smallScreen.css
  477. # [19:21] <glazou> that's my small screen rendering CSS sheet
  478. # [19:21] <shepazu> thanks, glazou! I figured someone on the CSS WG might know how to do it :)
  479. # [19:22] <glazou> yeah, when opera released SSR long ago, I did the same in ten minutes or so
  480. # [19:22] <glazou> ok, they also have a bit of media queries in it but the basis is that sheet
  481. # [19:23] <glazou> I need to run, bye doug
  482. # [19:23] <shepazu> later, glazou
  483. # [19:23] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  484. # [20:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  485. # [20:49] <fantasai> shepazu: I wrote an article on ALA about that awhile ago, btw
  486. # [20:49] <fantasai> shepazu: it's probably one of the first hits for my name
  487. # [20:53] <shepazu> fantasai: yes, I found that :) but I wondered if it was up to date
  488. # [20:55] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  489. # [20:55] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  490. # [21:02] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.247.143.102) (Ping timeout)
  491. # [21:05] <fantasai> shepazu: on the specifics of triggering handheld rendering in Opera, probably not
  492. # [21:05] <fantasai> shepazu: most of the rest is probably general enough not to be outdated
  493. # [21:23] <shepazu> ok, thanks, fantasai
  494. # [21:27] <fantasai> anyway, I'm offline til Friday
  495. # [21:27] <fantasai> laters
  496. # [21:28] * Quits: melinda (melinda.gr@67.47.246.6) (Quit: melinda)
  497. # [21:34] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@71.202.66.40) (Ping timeout)
  498. # [22:19] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  499. # [23:31] * RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  500. # [23:31] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  501. # Session Close: Thu Apr 02 00:00:00 2009

The end :)