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- # Session Start: Wed Apr 08 00:00:00 2009
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [15:22] <it> hi everyone, anyone alive?
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- # [17:39] <glazou> hi
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- # [17:39] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-irc
- # [17:39] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:39] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
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- # [17:51] <glazou> hi MikeSmith
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- # [17:52] <MikeSmith> glazou: konban wa
- # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +dsinger
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- # [17:59] <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
- # [17:59] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
- # [17:59] <fantasai> dsinger_: type /nick dsinger
- # [17:59] <dsinger_> Zakim, who is on the phone?
- # [17:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
- # [17:59] <dsinger_> Zakim, mute dsinger
- # [17:59] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
- # [18:00] <fantasai> dsinger_: type /nick dsinger into your IRC client
- # [18:00] <fantasai> dsinger_: then Zakim will recognize you
- # [18:00] <dsinger_> Zakim, i am dsinger
- # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, dsinger_, I now associate you with dsinger
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou
- # [18:00] <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
- # [18:00] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
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- # [18:02] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
- # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), glazou
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
- # [18:02] * dsinger_ thx fantasai, i guess 'i am' had same effect
- # [18:02] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
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- # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:03] * dsinger_ the wifi on the bus goes...
- # [18:04] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
- # [18:04] <dsinger_> Can we discuss the sophia agenda briefly?
- # [18:04] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
- # [18:04] <dsinger_> T u
- # [18:04] <glazou> np
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss
- # [18:04] <glazou> I only forgot to add it on the agenda but that was on the list
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P13
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- # [18:05] <fantasai> Zakim, ??P13 is me
- # [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
- # [18:06] * emilyw is stuck on IRC only today. :(
- # [18:06] <glazou> ok emilyw
- # [18:08] <dsinger_> Chris asks why agenda is member only but minutes are public
- # [18:09] <dsinger_> Admin is member only, tech is public
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- # [18:09] <ChrisL> scribenick: chrisl
- # [18:09] <ChrisL> scribe: chris
- # [18:09] <ChrisL> chair: daniel
- # [18:09] <Zakim> +Bert
- # [18:10] <Zakim> +Howcome
- # [18:10] <ChrisL> topic: agenda - member or public
- # [18:10] <ChrisL> dg: chris suggests sending agenda to the public list
- # [18:10] <ChrisL> bb: why? no advantage
- # [18:11] <ChrisL> dd: agenda almost always public. any member -specific stuff is rare and can be discussed separately
- # [18:11] <dsinger_> I think the current arr. Is odd but right
- # [18:11] <ChrisL> pl: can post the agenda minus the dial in numbers to the public list
- # [18:12] <ChrisL> db: publ;ic may have useful feedback
- # [18:12] <fantasai> dg: no, not dial in numbers, just topics
- # [18:12] <ChrisL> mg: if agenda is early enough
- # [18:12] <ChrisL> bb: don't want to do this, writing for the public takes to much time. unecessary
- # [18:13] <ChrisL> dg: specific example?
- # [18:13] <ChrisL> bb: want to hide spelling mistakes
- # [18:13] <glazou> s/dg/sg
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- # [18:14] <fantasai> pl: how about we send the agenda to the members mailing list and send a synopsis to the public mailing list
- # [18:14] <dsinger_> Has any public asked?
- # [18:14] <ChrisL> pl: how about a synopsis of agenda sent to public, plus fuller agenda to member list
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- # [18:14] <ChrisL> cl: dave - no
- # [18:15] <dsinger_> They see the minutes
- # [18:15] <ChrisL> db: how would they ask for it without knowing it exists
- # [18:15] <ChrisL> dg: minor issue, no consensus to move to public agenda.
- # [18:16] <dsinger_> It is work to fix, and dpes not seem worth it
- # [18:16] <ChrisL> ... could take more time to sort through public feedback before meeting
- # [18:16] <ChrisL> cl: ok, thanks for considering it
- # [18:16] <fantasai> dg: we stay as we are for the time being
- # [18:16] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html
- # [18:16] <ChrisL> topic: CSS2.1 Issue followup
- # [18:16] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
- # [18:16] <ChrisL> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24
- # [18:16] <ChrisL> Everyone had an action to read Bert's email and prepare for discussion
- # [18:16] <ChrisL> ee: made comments in email
- # [18:17] <dbaron> the " apple][ {color: red}" is actually a lot more complicated than Bert said
- # [18:17] <fantasai> no, actually, last week's minutes
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- # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: shouldn't this have been sent to the public mailing list?
- # [18:17] <ChrisL> ee: wasn't berts comment supposed to be sent to public list?
- # [18:17] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.71)
- # [18:17] <ChrisL> db: contents of email seem reasonable but i don't see a proposal
- # [18:18] <ChrisL> ... two examples look a bit complex
- # [18:18] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.30.11)
- # [18:18] <dbaron> complex in that they're more complicated than stated because of ()/[]/{}-matching
- # [18:18] <ChrisL> bb: my preference is to not do anything
- # [18:18] <ChrisL> ... this is as far as I got
- # [18:19] <szilles> +1 for Judy's summary
- # [18:19] <ChrisL> ee: it doesn't adress selectors. want it to cover selectors and declaration blocks
- # [18:19] <glazou> szilles: ?
- # [18:20] <ChrisL> ... idea that you match brackets and quotes is clear enough without specific microparsong rules
- # [18:20] <fantasai> s/selectors/at-rules/
- # [18:20] <szilles> s/+1 for Judy's summary//
- # [18:20] * ChrisL wonders if szilles was in wrong channel
- # [18:20] * szilles msg sent to wrong IRC
- # [18:20] <ChrisL> ee: there is an error in the spec as we changed the wording and introduced a new issue
- # [18:21] <ChrisL> ... proposal was that the part on malformed declarations was changed to stateents
- # [18:21] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors
- # [18:21] <fantasai> There's a rule about malformed declarations
- # [18:21] <ChrisL> ... should be "statements and declarations"
- # [18:21] <fantasai> yea
- # [18:22] <ChrisL> bb: not sure you always know if you are in a statement or not
- # [18:22] <ChrisL> ee: in one if you are not in a declaration
- # [18:22] <ChrisL> ..@rule is always a statement
- # [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
- # [18:22] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), glazou, [Mozilla], [Microsoft], plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome
- # [18:22] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
- # [18:22] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
- # [18:22] <Zakim> +[Apple]
- # [18:22] <Zakim> -dsinger
- # [18:23] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
- # [18:23] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
- # [18:23] <ChrisL> ee: if you are in a decl skip to end of decl, else skip to end of that statement
- # [18:23] <ChrisL> bb: no statements inside an @edia
- # [18:23] <ChrisL> s/edia/media/
- # [18:23] * ChrisL has a dodgy M key
- # [18:23] <fantasai> bb: they look like statements, but they aren't according to the grammar
- # [18:24] <ChrisL> bb: hence the complex email, there are different types of @rules. @media and @page are different
- # [18:24] <ChrisL> bb: take last example in my email
- # [18:25] <ChrisL> ... you are at the top level then you see an invalid string. have not started the first statement
- # [18:25] <ChrisL> ... have to assume you are unless you are clearly not eg a comment
- # [18:25] <ChrisL> bb: would like it to be as simple as elika says but doubt it is that simple
- # [18:26] <ChrisL> ee: only unclear case is inside @page in css3
- # [18:26] <ChrisL> ... so suggest dulplicating the malfored rule for stateents, then add more detail in css3 paged media
- # [18:26] <ChrisL> s/dulp/dupl/
- # [18:27] <ChrisL> dg: good compromise. is it acceptable?
- # [18:27] <ChrisL> bb: imples an error inside an @rule causes whole @rule to be ignored?
- # [18:27] <ChrisL> ee: depends on where it occurs
- # [18:27] <dbaron> I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
- # [18:27] <ChrisL> ... not if the @rulke has declarations.
- # [18:28] <ChrisL> ... trap points are stzatements and declarations
- # [18:28] <glazou> dbaron: yes
- # [18:28] <ChrisL> dg: what are the chars that are matched?
- # [18:28] <glazou> s/sg/sg
- # [18:28] <ChrisL> { ( "
- # [18:28] <glazou> s/dg/sg
- # [18:28] <fantasai> ee: brackets and quotes
- # [18:28] <glazou> ChrisL: that's sylvain galineau
- # [18:29] * ChrisL is sorry
- # [18:29] <sylvaing> yeah so content:"}" does not cause havoc
- # [18:29] <dbaron> also [
- # [18:29] <fantasai> and '
- # [18:29] <fantasai> :)
- # [18:29] <sylvaing> ()/{}/[]/""/''
- # [18:29] <ChrisL> dg: any objections to elika's proposal
- # [18:29] <ChrisL> (none heard)
- # [18:29] <ChrisL> bb: ok lets try it
- # [18:30] <fantasai> RESOLVED: duplicate malformed declarations rule for malformed statements (statements rule to come after declarations rule in the spec)
- # [18:30] <ChrisL> resolution: duplicate section on malformed declarations for malformed stateents
- # [18:30] <ChrisL> db: I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has "unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
- # [18:30] <ChrisL> ... make the production that covers all things that get ignored
- # [18:31] <ChrisL> .... this is a rather big project
- # [18:31] <ChrisL> dg: I agree in principle, on desirability and timeline
- # [18:31] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0299.html
- # [18:31] <ChrisL> Topic: Issues with CSS2.1 Grammar
- # [18:32] <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
- # [18:32] <ChrisL> dg: should a class be a name instead of an ident?
- # [18:32] * sylvaing loves Yves signature quote
- # [18:32] <ChrisL> db: why?
- # [18:32] <ChrisL> ee: think he missed the point odf the section
- # [18:32] <ChrisL> dg: and why to escape the first digit
- # [18:33] <ChrisL> ee: comparing css1 and css2, think he is confused. can no longer do this
- # [18:33] <ChrisL> dg: agree, not an issue
- # [18:33] <ChrisL> resolved: non-issue
- # [18:33] <dbaron> somebody should respond :-)
- # [18:34] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
- # [18:34] <ChrisL> action: daniel to respond to yves saying why ident is not an issue
- # [18:34] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:34] <trackbot> Created ACTION-138 - Respond to yves saying why ident is not an issue [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-04-15].
- # [18:34] * RRSAgent records action 1
- # [18:34] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
- # [18:34] * dbaron notes that Yves's signature quote is not handled very well by Google Translate
- # [18:34] <ChrisL> bb: yes, the S token is ambiguous
- # [18:35] * ChrisL would be surprised if google translate can deal with nissart
- # [18:35] <ChrisL> bb: ok to change the grammar
- # [18:35] <ChrisL> dg: so remove s* from end of import?
- # [18:35] <ChrisL> bb: yes
- # [18:36] <ChrisL> bert's response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
- # [18:36] <Bert> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
- # [18:37] <ChrisL> pl: agree
- # [18:37] <ChrisL> bb: yves says its easier if no non terminals can produce an empty string
- # [18:37] <ChrisL> ... can accept that
- # [18:37] <ChrisL> dg: any objection?
- # [18:37] <ChrisL> (non heard)
- # [18:38] <ChrisL> dg: choices in berts email seem harmless
- # [18:38] <ChrisL> ... and obvious
- # [18:38] <ChrisL> resolved: accept berts proposal on gramar
- # [18:38] <ChrisL> action: bert make the changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
- # [18:38] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [18:38] * RRSAgent records action 2
- # [18:38] <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Make the changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html [on Bert Bos - due 2009-04-15].
- # [18:39] <ChrisL> sg: do we have any outstanding 2.1 issues before publication?
- # [18:39] <ChrisL> dg: no, so lets publish and update as soon as possible
- # [18:40] <ChrisL> ee: bert and I will check all the edits have been made
- # [18:40] <ChrisL> db: so i put an issue on the end of the list
- # [18:40] <Zakim> +SteveZ
- # [18:40] <ChrisL> ... font-weight bolder and lighter, want to backport from css3 to css 2.1
- # [18:40] <dbaron> issue 111
- # [18:40] * Parts: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
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- # [18:41] * dsinger oops
- # [18:41] <ChrisL> cl: is it simple to specify?
- # [18:41] <ChrisL> db: yes but no proposed text yet
- # [18:41] <ChrisL> bb: prefer to see actual text
- # [18:41] <ChrisL> (several) yes
- # [18:41] <ChrisL> db: fine to publish but there is more stuff to do
- # [18:41] <ChrisL> ee: boris has some pendingf issues on anonymous tales still to come
- # [18:42] <ChrisL> resolved: publish and update to css 2.1 asap
- # [18:42] <fantasai> Bert, we should schedule a day to coordinate on 2.1
- # [18:42] <ChrisL> topic: Fallback color on background-image
- # [18:42] <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0536.html
- # [18:43] <ChrisL> ee: at f2f we decided I would propose text so we don't need to discuss this now
- # [18:43] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0389.html
- # [18:43] <ChrisL> topic: Fallback on border-image
- # [18:43] <glazou> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
- # [18:43] <ChrisL> dg: wh can summarise this?
- # [18:44] <ChrisL> ee: several open issues from discussions with dave hyatt, brad kempers proposal adresses all of them
- # [18:44] <ChrisL> ... look at his pictures
- # [18:45] <ChrisL> ... if image fails to load, layout jumps around. also layout changes depending on border-image support
- # [18:45] <ChrisL> ... so want it to not affect border-width
- # [18:45] <ChrisL> ... example with a jutting corner
- # [18:45] <ChrisL> ... make sa lot of sense
- # [18:46] <ChrisL> ... also says designers want an image where layout aligns with a given point of the image, wants to allow some overflow
- # [18:46] <ChrisL> ... minor issues to discuss on mailing list, precise syntax, but we should adopt this
- # [18:46] <ChrisL> hyatt anr roc in gfavour
- # [18:46] <ChrisL> s/gf/f/
- # [18:46] <dbaron> s/anr/and/
- # [18:47] <ChrisL> dg: demoed boder image, people were scared by the nuber of arguments and this adds four more. its hard to remember
- # [18:47] <ChrisL> ee: maybe a shorthand with individual properties like border-image-offset
- # [18:47] <ChrisL> .. more understandable at expense of adding more properties
- # [18:48] <ChrisL> dg: public wants it to be simpler and easier to understand. need to look at very carefully
- # [18:48] <ChrisL> ... seems to meet web designer's wishes
- # [18:48] <ChrisL> bb: what if the corerr image is wider than the box itself?
- # [18:48] <ChrisL> ee: probably it gets clipped
- # [18:49] <ChrisL> db: there is some rule to explain how to handle this
- # [18:49] <ChrisL> ee: needs to be worked out in detsail
- # [18:49] <ChrisL> dg: any objection to moving forward on this proposal
- # [18:49] <ChrisL> hl: not studied in detail yet
- # [18:50] <ChrisL> dg: so, do we adopt this direction and develop it further?
- # [18:50] <ChrisL> ... main issue is relayout which is a big issue
- # [18:50] <ChrisL> ee: hyatt raised this also
- # [18:50] <ChrisL> dg: does make sense
- # [18:50] <ChrisL> dg: any disagreement?
- # [18:51] <ChrisL> (none heard)
- # [18:51] <ChrisL> dg: several options, functional notation or shorthand
- # [18:51] * Zakim ChrisL, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
- # [18:51] <fantasai> sg: I like the proposal, but usability of the syntax is a concern
- # [18:51] * ChrisL zaki, back off
- # [18:52] <ChrisL> resolved: adopt this direction to avoid relayout but make the syntax easier to understand
- # [18:54] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
- # [18:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
- # [18:54] <ChrisL> topic: next f2f in sophia
- # [18:55] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2009
- # [18:55] <ChrisL> dg: need agenda items to help people with travel planning
- # [18:55] <ChrisL> ee: pleae add topics to the wiki
- # [18:55] * dsinger makes it easy!
- # [18:56] <ChrisL> ds: no specific ones to suggest but might be difficult getting apple dev there as right before out dev conference
- # [18:56] <Bert> Currently known topics: test suites, and grid/matric/template layouts
- # [18:56] <ChrisL> sz: last day of japan f2f should have a list of topics
- # [18:56] <ChrisL> ee: will add them
- # [18:57] * sylvaing can confirm alexmog will also be there so there will at least be a real engineer for Microsoft :)
- # [18:57] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
- # [18:57] <ChrisL> ds: three day meeting all day?
- # [18:57] <ChrisL> dg: yes
- # [18:57] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveZ (19%), glazou (40%)
- # [18:57] <ChrisL> dg: any other items?
- # [18:57] <ChrisL> hl: think ing on colun break vs page break. any strong opinions?
- # [18:58] <ChrisL> ee: melinda and i discussing, no opinions yet
- # [18:58] <ChrisL> hl: want to bring back the column-break-{before, after, inside} rather than having this in the page properties
- # [18:59] <ChrisL> sz: then you have an interaction problem
- # [18:59] <ChrisL> hl: yes, needs to be defined
- # [18:59] <melinda> I'm kinda leaning the same way... maybe with a shorthand to combine them...???
- # [18:59] <ChrisL> s/colun/column/
- # [18:59] * Quits: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.79.47) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608])
- # [19:00] <ChrisL> hl: yes, shorthand could be good. will propose text
- # [19:00] <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
- # [19:00] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dsinger, glazou, David_Baron, sylvaing, plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome, SteveZ
- # [19:00] <ChrisL> adjourned
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Apple]
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -SteveZ
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -ChrisL
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -Howcome
- # [19:00] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
- # [19:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html ChrisL
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [19:00] <Zakim> -glazou
- # [19:00] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
- # [19:01] <Bert> Fantasai, for the CSS 2.1 issues, any day is fine starting next Tuesday.
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -fantasai
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -plinss
- # [19:01] <ChrisL> meeting: css wg telcon
- # [19:01] <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
- # [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, glazou, David_Baron, sylvaing, plinss, ChrisL, Melinda_Grant, fantasai, Bert, Howcome, SteveZ
- # [19:02] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
- # [19:02] <ChrisL> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0020.html
- # [19:02] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
- # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html ChrisL
- # [19:03] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.113) (Ping timeout)
- # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: ok
- # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: My schedules' pretty flexible
- # [19:06] <fantasai> Bert: how about I'll go through the issues list this week and update it to match the minutes
- # [19:07] <fantasai> Bert: and then next Tuesday you can go through and make sure all the edits are in
- # [19:07] <Bert> OK
- # [19:07] <fantasai> Bert: I'll review them on Tuesday
- # [19:07] <fantasai> Bert: since my timezone is later :)
- # [19:07] <fantasai> Bert: and if there's any remaining issues you can fix them Wednesday before the telecon
- # [19:07] <fantasai> Bert: so we can get a resolution to publish
- # [19:08] <fantasai> Bert: sounds good?
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- # [21:00] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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- # Session Close: Thu Apr 09 00:00:00 2009
The end :)