/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-04-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 16 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  14. # [11:20] <Bert> Fantasai, 113 is done. Publication request has been sent.
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  23. # [14:31] <glazou> Bert: ping
  24. # [14:31] <Bert> Hi Daniel
  25. # [14:32] <glazou> hello
  26. # [14:32] <glazou> what's the passcode for the MQ call ?
  27. # [14:42] <Bert> CSSMQ
  28. # [14:43] <glazou> thanks
  29. # [14:43] <anne> i don't need to be there, right?
  30. # [14:44] <glazou> anne: officially no
  31. # [14:45] <glazou> the document was not changed drastically between last version and this one
  32. # [14:45] <glazou> and disposition of comments is clear
  33. # [14:45] <glazou> should be pretty straightforward
  34. # [14:46] <glazou> Bert: useful URL, htmldiff http://tinyurl.com/d2ynnn
  35. # [14:46] <glazou> between two last versions
  36. # [14:48] <glazou> brb
  37. # [14:51] <Bert> We should maybe put "writing slick dispositions of comments" on the agenda for the ftf. Most people only write one or two in their life, but the "Director" is too busy to tolerate different layouts, colors or errors. We can gain a lot of time by putting more green and less other colors in them...
  38. # [14:56] <glazou> send such a proposal to w3c-css-wg ?
  39. # [14:57] <Bert> Good idea.
  40. # [14:58] * glazou hopes his phone will work normally today, not like yesterday
  41. # [14:58] <glazou> I don't know what happened ; I wondered if free.fr suffered from a DoS
  42. # [14:58] <Bert> Silence is agreement, so if we don't hear you... :-)
  43. # [14:58] <glazou> eheh
  44. # [14:59] <glazou> Bert: do we have an irc channel for that call?
  45. # [15:03] * glazou is on the call
  46. # [15:04] * glazou joined #cssmq just in case
  47. # [15:04] <anne> ok
  48. # [15:05] <anne> Bert, or the W3C Team sorts out a template for DoC
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  50. # [15:06] <glazou> isn't the call now?
  51. # [15:06] * glazou is alone on the call
  52. # [15:06] <Bert> There are too many of those, every WG thinks it has the ultimate system, some are so automated, only one person knows how it works :-)
  53. # [15:07] <anne> ok, output example then
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  63. # [16:15] <glazou_> Bert, i have unsufficient privileges for http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-cssmq-minutes.html
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  68. # [16:19] <glazou> anne: CR granted provided a few changes in Status section
  69. # [16:20] <glazou> mailing you and WG about it right now
  70. # [16:21] <anne> okay
  71. # [16:21] <glazou> anne: your current online public tests about MQ are light, do you have any plans to provide the WG with a complete suite of tests ?
  72. # [16:22] <glazou> and how long do you think it will take ?
  73. # [16:23] <anne> do you have specific suggestions for new tests?
  74. # [16:23] <glazou> you don't test all features
  75. # [16:23] <glazou> only width
  76. # [16:23] <anne> I agree more is needed btw, but ideas are welcome
  77. # [16:23] <glazou> you test oly lengths
  78. # [16:23] <glazou> only
  79. # [16:23] <anne> oh right, well, if you figure out a plan to test the rest in some reliable fashion let me know :)
  80. # [16:24] <glazou> wait
  81. # [16:24] <glazou> so you say this is untestable ?
  82. # [16:24] <glazou> http://tc.labs.opera.com/mediaqueries/
  83. # [16:25] <anne> that's not what I meant
  84. # [16:25] <glazou> so we need tests :)
  85. # [16:25] <anne> I'm saying they're hard to test
  86. # [16:25] <anne> because all the non-dimension things depend on platforms and such
  87. # [16:25] <glazou> absolutely
  88. # [16:26] <anne> e.g. color-index and color
  89. # [16:26] <glazou> but if we don't have tests, these features will not go to PR and since they're not listed as at-risk, the whole spec won't go to PR
  90. # [16:26] <Bert> Glazou, I'm in another telcon now, but will send minutes in an hour or so.
  91. # [16:26] <glazou> thanks Bert
  92. # [16:26] <anne> I suppose I can state that you need to test browsers on a specific MacBook or something
  93. # [16:26] <anne> then the test suite can simply assume that as reference platform
  94. # [16:27] <glazou> oh I even suppose some features will require a mobile device with a screen of shades of gray
  95. # [16:27] <glazou> that's not a problem
  96. # [16:28] <anne> right ok
  97. # [16:28] <glazou> ok
  98. # [16:28] <anne> the current tests work for most platforms though so I'd like to extend these first
  99. # [16:28] <glazou> thanks
  100. # [16:28] <anne> to cover more parse errors mostly
  101. # [16:28] <glazou> as I said, we need a whole Test Suite anyway
  102. # [16:28] <anne> then i can probably create a directory with feature tests
  103. # [16:28] <glazou> or this doc will not exit CR
  104. # [16:28] <anne> I know how the W3C operates
  105. # [16:29] <glazou> I know you know :)
  106. # [16:29] <anne> and what I wrote as exit criteria ;)
  107. # [16:29] <glazou> and I know you don't always like it :)
  108. # [16:29] <anne> heh
  109. # [16:30] <anne> i agree we need to test all the features though
  110. # [16:31] <anne> though I think two similar implementations (e.g. Opera and Firefox) on a single reference platform (e.g. a 13in MacBook) should suffice
  111. # [16:31] <anne> no need to find two implementations on a monochrome mobile device as well :)
  112. # [16:31] <glazou> well
  113. # [16:31] <glazou> if you want to test color depth
  114. # [16:32] <glazou> or 'monochrome'
  115. # [16:32] <glazou> you'll need such a device
  116. # [16:32] <glazou> you've got mail :)
  117. # [16:32] <anne> I don't see how you would test interoperability with such a mobile device
  118. # [16:33] <anne> how do you know the software is the same?
  119. # [16:33] <anne> can't you change color settings on a MacBook and then check if the browser updates stuff or not?
  120. # [16:33] <glazou> that will be enough yes
  121. # [16:35] <anne> saying that the CR period ends in October, what does that mean?
  122. # [16:36] <anne> it's still a CR right if we haven't finished stuff by then?
  123. # [16:43] <glazou> it means that there is high expectation from the both W3C and the public on this spec and the Director wants a deadline
  124. # [16:43] <anne> what's the consequence?
  125. # [16:44] <glazou> I don't really know, probably that another CR will be needed if we miss the mark ; but if we miss the mark, we will loose all credibility in the consortium anyway
  126. # [16:44] <glazou> we have 6 months to write a few tests and 3 implementation reports
  127. # [16:44] <glazou> that should be doable, right ?
  128. # [16:45] <glazou> I mean unless Opera/Apple/Mozilla don't want MQ to move to PR
  129. # [16:45] <glazou> specs are not only the document
  130. # [16:45] <glazou> it's also the test suite
  131. # [16:45] <anne> I'm pretty certain we'll hit a bunch of bugs and the question is whether implementations will have time to fix the bugs on time
  132. # [16:45] <glazou> then we'll move back to WD
  133. # [16:46] <anne> if the spec is fine but the impl haven't had time to catch up yet?
  134. # [16:46] <glazou> we cannot say that all the time ; at some point, you must say ok, we move forward
  135. # [16:46] <glazou> then we don't have interoperability and can't mvoe out of CR
  136. # [16:46] <anne> but the CR has a "deadline"
  137. # [16:46] <anne> oh well
  138. # [16:46] <glazou> yes
  139. # [16:47] <anne> I don't understand the reason for a meaningless deadline, but I don't really care
  140. # [16:47] <glazou> anne, you have to understand the W3C staff really questions ability of browser vendors in the CSS WG to make specs move forward because at some point, the commitment decreases
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  143. # [16:48] <glazou> sorry was disconnected
  144. # [16:48] <glazou> I said : anne, you have to understand the W3C staff really questions ability of browser vendors in the CSS WG to make specs move forward because at some point, the commitment decreases
  145. # [16:48] <anne> I don't think we can solve that with deadlines
  146. # [16:50] <glazou> anne, even browser vendors have deadlines
  147. # [16:50] <glazou> and this WG has deadlines
  148. # [16:50] <anne> but there's no consequence for missing WG deadlines
  149. # [16:50] <glazou> if we don't release CSS 2.1 before end of 2010, we'll smell the flavor of thunder
  150. # [16:51] <anne> fear has never really been a good motivator :)
  151. # [16:51] <glazou> that's not a question of fear, it's a question of money
  152. # [16:51] <glazou> this WG has not released a single REC in eleven yeaes
  153. # [16:51] <glazou> years
  154. # [16:51] <anne> "smell the flavor of thunder" sounds like fear to me
  155. # [16:52] <glazou> that does not change the fact
  156. # [16:52] <anne> it's not about changing facts, it's about solving the problem
  157. # [16:52] <glazou> we _must_ release our specs as REC as soon as possible, and if browser vendors stop contributing to specs/test suite/implementations, this group is a dead duck
  158. # [16:53] <glazou> if Opera cannot fix bugs in MQ, then MQ is a dead duck
  159. # [16:56] <anne> I'm assuming everyone will fix bugs, I'm just not sure everyone will fix bugs in a six month timeframe
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  161. # [16:56] <anne> I'm pretty sure we won't
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  169. # [19:55] <plh> regarding the 6 months deadline, it's a minimum, not a maximum
  170. # [19:56] <plh> and it says an expectation with the public
  171. # [20:01] <fantasai> plh: that makes a lot more sense than what glazou said
  172. # [20:03] <plh> the original proposal was 3 months, and we thought that it would send the wrong message out
  173. # [20:03] <plh> there is simply no chance from what we understood that the draft would move out of cr in 3 months
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  177. # [21:10] <anne> ok, ta
  178. # [21:10] <anne> and I agree
  179. # [21:10] <anne> moving out of CR in 3 months is only realistic if you can move straight to PR basically :)
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The end :)