/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-04-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 29 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  60. # [17:20] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  61. # [17:20] <glazou> hi
  62. # [17:22] <anne> good afternoon
  63. # [17:28] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114)
  64. # [17:38] * glazou is now known as glazou_notFeeling
  65. # [17:38] * glazou_notFeeling is now known as glazou_pain
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  70. # [17:55] * sylvain wonders who's hanging around here under sylvaing :)
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  74. # [17:56] * sylvaing well, that was weird
  75. # [17:58] * Parts: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  76. # [17:59] * Joins: dsinger (mobile@67.218.109.85)
  77. # [17:59] <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
  78. # [17:59] <dsinger> Invite zakim
  79. # [17:59] * Joins: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.83.96)
  80. # [18:00] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  81. # [18:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  82. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-irc
  83. # [18:00] <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
  84. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I don't know what conference this is
  85. # [18:00] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, dsinger, sylvaing, MikeSmith, glazou_pain, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
  86. # [18:00] <glazou_pain> dsinger: you have to use /invite, that's what I did
  87. # [18:00] <dsinger> Zakim, this is style
  88. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, dsinger; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  89. # [18:01] * Quits: dsinger (mobile@67.218.109.85) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
  90. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +95089aabb
  91. # [18:01] <Zakim> - +1.408.398.aaaa
  92. # [18:01] <glazou_pain> Zakim, aaaa is me
  93. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, glazou_pain, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
  94. # [18:01] * glazou_pain is now known as glazou
  95. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aacc
  96. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, +aaaa is me
  97. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'
  98. # [18:01] * Parts: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  99. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, +95089aabb is me
  100. # [18:01] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  101. # [18:01] <sylvaing> zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
  102. # [18:01] <Zakim> +sylvaing, alexmog; got it
  103. # [18:01] * Joins: dsinger (mobile@67.218.109.85)
  104. # [18:02] <dsinger> Zakim, who is here?
  105. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], glazou, +1.408.398.aacc
  106. # [18:02] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
  107. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, sylvaing, glazou, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
  108. # [18:02] <dsinger> Zakim, i am +1.408.398.aacc
  109. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  110. # [18:02] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
  111. # [18:02] <dsinger> Zakim, mute me
  112. # [18:02] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  113. # [18:03] <glazou> so we have regrets from szilles, anne, molly, dbaron and probably plinss too
  114. # [18:03] <glazou> hi ChrisL
  115. # [18:03] <ChrisL> hi daniel
  116. # [18:03] * dsinger hi all!
  117. # [18:03] * emilyw is here on IRC. :)
  118. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Bert
  119. # [18:03] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  120. # [18:04] * dsinger what happened?
  121. # [18:04] * dsinger ow
  122. # [18:05] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.113)
  123. # [18:05] * alexmog that sounds worse than css
  124. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P24
  125. # [18:06] * dsinger we are a crowd...i dislo my sjoulder in hawaii last week...
  126. # [18:06] <fantasai> Zakim, ??P24 is fantasai
  127. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  128. # [18:08] <dsinger> Which module?
  129. # [18:09] <ChrisL> scribenick: chrisl
  130. # [18:09] <ChrisL> regrets: anne, molly, david, steve
  131. # [18:09] <ChrisL> topic: column-break
  132. # [18:10] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html
  133. # [18:10] <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
  134. # [18:10] <Zakim> -fantasai
  135. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P24
  136. # [18:11] <ChrisL> am: showed three combinations in an email
  137. # [18:11] <fantasai> Zakim, ??P24 is fantasai
  138. # [18:11] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  139. # [18:11] <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
  140. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], glazou, dsinger (muted), Bert, ChrisL, fantasai
  141. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, alexmog
  142. # [18:11] <Zakim> On IRC I see alexmog, ChrisL, dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, emilyw, sylvaing, glazou, Hixie, fantasai, Bert, trackbot, myakura, krijnh, arronei
  143. # [18:12] * sylvaing gave a CSS presentation using Opera presentation mode yesterday....
  144. # [18:12] <ChrisL> am: page-break-avoid and column-break-avoid, all combinations make sense
  145. # [18:12] <ChrisL> ... supposr 2 col layout, something is a column and a half wide
  146. # [18:13] <ChrisL> ... if we had two separate properties, column-break-avoid would make it start in the second column
  147. # [18:13] <ChrisL> ... page-break-avoid would move it to the next page
  148. # [18:13] <ChrisL> ... if they were totallyy separate
  149. # [18:14] <ChrisL> ... however, a single break property would move things to the next column but not necessarily the next page
  150. # [18:14] <ChrisL> dg: so you would get a blank page
  151. # [18:14] <ChrisL> am: or a blank column before the next page break
  152. # [18:14] <fantasai> break-inside: avoid | avoid-column | avoid-page
  153. # [18:14] <fantasai> would give you all combinations
  154. # [18:15] <ChrisL> am: if we think page break is always a column break, then its hard to say thata page break is avoided but ok to start im mind column
  155. # [18:15] <ChrisL> s/mind/mid/
  156. # [18:16] <ChrisL> am: close to the opinion that its okay to have separate column and page properties
  157. # [18:16] <ChrisL> el: one property (as above) would do it as well as long as all combinations are listed
  158. # [18:17] * glazou can fantasai's swine flu spread over IRC/call ?-)
  159. # [18:17] <dsinger> Can we lay out all cases? Near end of girst col, near end of second
  160. # [18:17] * fantasai has bronchitis, not swine flu
  161. # [18:17] <dsinger> Pb avoid, cb avoid
  162. # [18:17] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  163. # [18:17] <dsinger> Pb+cb avoid?
  164. # [18:17] * glazou urgh... good luck with that, I know how it feels, got one 2 years ago, took me 6 months to really recover
  165. # [18:17] <ChrisL> am: advantage of separate properties is that you avoid first column breaks then page breaks
  166. # [18:18] <ChrisL> dg: also an issue of readability
  167. # [18:19] <ChrisL> el: can be readable with one property, with good choice of values. encourages people to think about pages when designing columns
  168. # [18:19] <dsinger> A break over page would violate cb avoid?
  169. # [18:19] <ChrisL> dg: these are being confused
  170. # [18:19] <ChrisL> bb: more interesting question, they are semi independent so all combinations need to be considered either way
  171. # [18:20] <ChrisL> dg: some comninations will be unused
  172. # [18:20] <ChrisL> bb: is there a list of all the combinations?
  173. # [18:20] <ChrisL> am: email did not listall of them
  174. # [18:21] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0054.html
  175. # [18:21] <ChrisL> dg: avoid means 'try to avoid'
  176. # [18:22] <ChrisL> am: most common pattern is to avoid all breaks.
  177. # [18:22] * Quits: dsinger (mobile@67.218.109.85) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
  178. # [18:22] * Bert noticed that the archive "by date" has sorting errors: 3 Apr comes before 2 Apr...
  179. # [18:23] <ChrisL> dg: column should take precedence over pages
  180. # [18:24] <ChrisL> am: some people think there are only two combinations, but differ on which two those are
  181. # [18:24] <ChrisL> el: happy to define all three
  182. # [18:25] <ChrisL> am: avoid colum, page, both makes sense to me
  183. # [18:25] <ChrisL> bb: agree with elika, define all three even though one is not useful
  184. # [18:26] <ChrisL> ... avoid-both is ok, if you avoid a column break also avoids a column break
  185. # [18:26] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  186. # [18:26] <ChrisL> el: no, avoiding both means you prioritise avoiding page breaks over column breaks
  187. # [18:26] <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aadd
  188. # [18:26] <Zakim> -dsinger
  189. # [18:26] * glazou dsinger you just rejoined ?
  190. # [18:27] <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.aadd is [apple]
  191. # [18:27] <Zakim> +[apple]; got it
  192. # [18:27] <glazou> ok
  193. # [18:27] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  194. # [18:27] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  195. # [18:28] <dsinger> right, col1 of page 2 is not col2 of page 1
  196. # [18:28] <ChrisL> cl: a page break always produces a new colum break
  197. # [18:28] <ChrisL> bb: if its too long then there is no need to push it anywhere
  198. # [18:28] <ChrisL> am: avoid is not forbid. its 'attempt to not break"
  199. # [18:30] <ChrisL> cl: no way to say 'minimise the total number of breaks'
  200. # [18:30] <ChrisL> am: good point, can be complex to optimise for that though
  201. # [18:31] <ChrisL> sg: see example with avoid-column
  202. # [18:31] <fantasai> am: I would prefer to specify that you try to lay out, and if it doesn't fit, you push to the top of the next column
  203. # [18:31] <ChrisL> am: choice of keeping "most" of the article together
  204. # [18:32] <ChrisL> ... prefer a break art the end rather than a break near the start
  205. # [18:32] <ChrisL> am: page break is always a column break as well. that has to be made clear
  206. # [18:33] <ChrisL> el: i agree with alex. want avoid to mean 'try layout then push over a break'. more complex stuff needs different keeywords. avoid behaviour is simple and useful so is what we should do now
  207. # [18:34] <ChrisL> bb: seems fine
  208. # [18:34] <ChrisL> dg: seem close to consensus
  209. # [18:34] <ChrisL> el: page break inside option does not work,
  210. # [18:35] <ChrisL> ... introducing a shorthand that combines both column and page is the best option
  211. # [18:35] <ChrisL> am: cleaner solution to forget the old property
  212. # [18:35] <ChrisL> el: have to support the old property
  213. # [18:35] <ChrisL> am: yes but avoid in new documents
  214. # [18:36] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
  215. # [18:36] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@71.202.66.40)
  216. # [18:36] <ChrisL> (consensus seems to be reached)
  217. # [18:37] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  218. # [18:37] <fantasai> el: We're down to either alias or shorthand
  219. # [18:37] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  220. # [18:37] <ChrisL> el so we eliminate the first of melindas options but have to choose between 2 and 3
  221. # [18:37] <ChrisL> bb: shorthand seems like overkill
  222. # [18:37] * Quits: emilyw (chatzilla@129.21.83.96) (Ping timeout)
  223. # [18:38] <ChrisL> am: fine with either
  224. # [18:38] * dsinger it's not my subject, but I'd like to see a write-up with all examples covered...
  225. # [18:38] <ChrisL> dg: would like to see a summing up and final proposal
  226. # [18:39] * dsinger para shorter than col, longer than col; near end of col 1, near end of last col; cb avoid, pb avoid, both avoid...
  227. # [18:39] <ChrisL> el: can work with hakon to propose something that covers all three combinations, need to pick 2 or 3
  228. # [18:39] <ChrisL> 2. Add three new column-breaking properties ('column-break-before', 'column-break-after', 'column-break-inside') and define their interactions with the existing page-breaking properties; also define three shorthands ('break-before', 'break-after', 'break-inside') that would set both page- and column-breaking values. Consider deprecating both page- and column-breaking properties in the future.
  229. # [18:39] <ChrisL> 3. Define 'break-before', 'break-after', and 'break-inside' as aliases to 'page-break-before', 'page-break-after', and 'page-break-inside'.
  230. # [18:40] <ChrisL> am: does the alias mean all the values apply to the old properties?
  231. # [18:40] <ChrisL> el: no, one is a superset of the others
  232. # [18:41] <ChrisL> am: preferable from an implementor standpoint to allow all the properties
  233. # [18:41] <ChrisL> el: 'always' property would be a problem
  234. # [18:41] <fantasai> s/property/value/
  235. # [18:41] <ChrisL> am: ok so i prefer a new set of properties
  236. # [18:41] <ChrisL> el: so do I
  237. # [18:42] <ChrisL> cl: so everyone seems to like melindas option 2 best
  238. # [18:42] <ChrisL> resolution: Add three new column-breaking properties per melindas email oprtion 2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0270.html
  239. # [18:43] <fantasai> /resolution/RESOLVED/
  240. # [18:43] <ChrisL> action: fantasai work with hakon on spec text to define the column-break properties and interaction with page bbreak properties
  241. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  242. # [18:43] * RRSAgent records action 1
  243. # [18:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Work with hakon on spec text to define the column-break properties and interaction with page bbreak properties [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-05-06].
  244. # [18:43] <ChrisL> topic: email from svg on image fit
  245. # [18:43] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html
  246. # [18:44] <ChrisL> "The naming was briefly discussed in another SVG telcon[1], and the conclusion was that the SVG WG prefers the naming 'content-fit' and 'content-position' because of the reasons already mentioned above.
  247. # [18:44] <ChrisL> "
  248. # [18:44] <ChrisL> el: concern is that for css, this only appies to images while the name implies it applies more widely eg to text content
  249. # [18:44] <ChrisL> ... but cant comu up with a better name
  250. # [18:45] <ChrisL> dg: don't see a clash with the content property, but could live with it
  251. # [18:45] <ChrisL> el: wonder if we should ask for better names
  252. # [18:45] <ChrisL> dg: ack the problem and ask for a better name
  253. # [18:46] * alexmog has a meeting in a different building, has to go...
  254. # [18:46] <ChrisL> action: daniel respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html agreeing there is a problem but asking for a better name
  255. # [18:46] * RRSAgent records action 2
  256. # [18:46] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  257. # [18:46] <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0490.html agreeing there is a problem but asking for a better name [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-05-06].
  258. # [18:46] <ChrisL> topic: almost-ready specs
  259. # [18:47] <ChrisL> dg: what can we move to PR?
  260. # [18:47] * sylvaing is following alexmog....leaves arron hanging
  261. # [18:47] <ChrisL> dg: chris reported progress with implementations agfainst the colour module tests
  262. # [18:47] <ChrisL> dg: we are seen as very slow and need to publish and move forward
  263. # [18:47] <ChrisL> dg: other candidates?
  264. # [18:47] <ChrisL> el: namespaces?
  265. # [18:48] * dsinger maybe once a quarter we should review every spec. we have, and where it is, and what we are waiting for (and whether it's overdue)...
  266. # [18:48] <ChrisL> ... a parsing bug and one test is failing
  267. # [18:48] <ChrisL> dg: all implementations fail?
  268. # [18:48] <ChrisL> dg; who is doing implementation reports?
  269. # [18:49] <ChrisL> el: easy to do once implementations pass, test suite is not very long
  270. # [18:49] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.113) (Ping timeout)
  271. # [18:49] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114) (Connection reset by peer)
  272. # [18:49] <ChrisL> dg: discussed media queries with anne, he thinks some will be untestable as we do not have suitable devices and that testing on desktop is enough
  273. # [18:50] <ChrisL> dg: concerned that we need to test on mono and character-cell devices
  274. # [18:50] <ChrisL> dg: desktop ones seem to be interoperable at this time, but some features do not apply
  275. # [18:50] <ChrisL> el: do we have any implementations for grid?
  276. # [18:50] <ChrisL> dg: no
  277. # [18:51] <ChrisL> el: should make an imp report for dersktop and survey what other devices actually exist. at end of 6 months if there are no implementations of some features or devices we can drop them from the spec
  278. # [18:52] <ChrisL> bb: not honest to say we pass a test if there are no implementations
  279. # [18:52] <ChrisL> ... some implementatiosn can emullate and always pass
  280. # [18:52] <ChrisL> ... currently no features at risk
  281. # [18:53] <ChrisL> cl: prefer to do an imp report then mark features at risk and republish
  282. # [18:53] <ChrisL> sz: only need to claim to be a device, not to actually be that device
  283. # [18:54] <ChrisL> dg: yes but not implementation claims to be a grid for example
  284. # [18:54] <ChrisL> sz: only issue in testing is if the right selection was made, not whether it then goes on to lay outcorrectly
  285. # [18:55] <ChrisL> dg: will not agree to implement like that and claim to have a feature that they in fact dfon't have
  286. # [18:55] <ChrisL> s/dfo/do/
  287. # [18:55] <Bert> If we test '@media (grid)' and '@media not (grid)' and Opera does the right thing for both, sin't that enough?
  288. # [18:55] <ChrisL> dg: can test for not-grid
  289. # [18:56] <ChrisL> el: probably sufficient.
  290. # [18:56] <ChrisL> ... will have to say its sufficient
  291. # [18:57] <ChrisL> dg: anne had some tests for desktop only. no tests for other devices. WG should look at tests from Anne and contribute more
  292. # [18:58] <ChrisL> ... as soon as we have tests, we can move forward
  293. # [18:58] <ChrisL> cl: where are anne's tests?
  294. # [18:58] <Bert> http://tc.labs.opera.com/mediaqueries/
  295. # [18:58] <ChrisL> not listed on http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/
  296. # [18:59] <ChrisL> bb: because not reviewed yet
  297. # [18:59] <ChrisL> dg: will try to review for next week
  298. # [19:00] <ChrisL> cl: cdf testsuite has media query tests which could be re-used
  299. # [19:00] * Joins: plinss_ (plinss@98.112.93.63)
  300. # [19:00] <ChrisL> sz: snapshot?
  301. # [19:00] <ChrisL> el: depends on 2.1 and selectors
  302. # [19:01] <ChrisL> sz: snapshot is important as it actually defines the current state
  303. # [19:01] <ChrisL> dg: don't think the snapshot is very useful
  304. # [19:02] <dsinger> well, there will be browsers that are interoperable on defined modules...
  305. # [19:02] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  306. # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  307. # [19:02] <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
  308. # [19:02] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.408.398.aacc, glazou, sylvaing, alexmog, dsinger, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ
  309. # [19:02] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  310. # [19:02] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  311. # [19:02] <dsinger> bye
  312. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  313. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[apple]
  314. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Bert
  315. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  316. # [19:03] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
  317. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
  318. # [19:03] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  319. # [19:03] <ChrisL> meetiing: CSS WG telcon
  320. # [19:03] <ChrisL> chair: Daniel
  321. # [19:04] <ChrisL> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0075.html (member only)
  322. # [19:04] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
  323. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
  324. # [19:05] <ChrisL> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0075.html (member only)
  325. # [19:05] <ChrisL> Chair: Daniel
  326. # [19:05] <ChrisL> Meetiing: CSS WG telcon
  327. # [19:05] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
  328. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
  329. # [19:06] * ChrisL wonders why the minutes don't update
  330. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  331. # [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  332. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.408.398.aacc, glazou, sylvaing, alexmog, dsinger, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ
  333. # [19:13] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.114)
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  338. # [21:03] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  339. # [21:03] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
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  350. # Session Close: Thu Apr 30 00:00:01 2009

The end :)