/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-07-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  53. # [17:44] <glazou> hi
  54. # [17:47] <plinss> hello
  55. # [17:48] <glazou> hi peter
  56. # [17:48] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.114)
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  59. # [17:59] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  60. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-CSS-irc
  61. # [17:59] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  62. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  63. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  64. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
  65. # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, +1.858.216 is me
  66. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  67. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  68. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glazou
  69. # [18:02] <sgalineau> Zakim, +1.206.324 is me
  70. # [18:02] <Zakim> +sgalineau; got it
  71. # [18:03] * sgalineau is willing to talk about anything for hours as long as web fonts are not involved
  72. # [18:03] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  73. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  74. # [18:04] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  75. # [18:04] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  76. # [18:06] <glazou> 33 celsius here, pffff :-(
  77. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Bert
  78. # [18:06] <dbaron> glazou, it was 39 or so here on Sunday
  79. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P14
  80. # [18:08] <sgalineau> since we're into weather
  81. # [18:08] <sgalineau> Seattle is currently 20
  82. # [18:08] <sgalineau> forecast 27. perfect !
  83. # [18:09] <sgalineau> of course it's going to suck the rest of the year
  84. # [18:09] * MoZ asks himself if CSS WG is preparing a CSS ForeCast Module
  85. # [18:10] <glazou> MoZ: only during ftfs :)
  86. # [18:11] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.72)
  87. # [18:12] <dbaron> (The weather is quite nice here now, though; forecast 29-30 for the next 3 days.)
  88. # [18:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  89. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  90. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  91. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, sgalineau, glazou, [Mozilla], Bert, ??P14
  92. # [18:12] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  93. # [18:13] <fantasai> Zakim, I am ??P14
  94. # [18:13] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  95. # [18:14] <fantasai> Bert: Multicol
  96. # [18:14] <fantasai> has already been published
  97. # [18:14] <dbaron> Regrets: Øyvind Stenhaug, Anne van Kesteren, Dave Singer, Tona Henderson, Håkon Wium Lie, Steve Zilles, César Acebal, Molly Holzschlag
  98. # [18:14] <arronei> I'm here on IRC and will be on the call in 5 minutes or so
  99. # [18:14] <fantasai> dbaron: Any status on publishing flexbox?
  100. # [18:15] <fantasai> ACTION: Bert publish flexbox as FPWD
  101. # [18:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  102. # [18:15] * RRSAgent records action 1
  103. # [18:15] <trackbot> Created ACTION-161 - Publish flexbox as FPWD [on Bert Bos - due 2009-07-08].
  104. # [18:15] <fantasai> Bert notes that lots of people are on holiday, but he will try to get that done
  105. # [18:16] <glazou> phone span, sorry for the noise
  106. # [18:16] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/
  107. # [18:16] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  108. # [18:16] <dbaron> Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog
  109. # [18:16] <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
  110. # [18:18] <dbaron> I'm ok with publishing
  111. # [18:18] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish css3-images as FPWD
  112. # [18:19] <fantasai> ACTION: Bert publish css3-images as FPWD
  113. # [18:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  114. # [18:19] * RRSAgent records action 2
  115. # [18:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Publish css3-images as FPWD [on Bert Bos - due 2009-07-08].
  116. # [18:19] * sgalineau steps out for 1mn
  117. # [18:21] <fantasai> Topic: Anonymous Table Boxes
  118. # [18:21] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0184.html
  119. # [18:21] * alexmog arron has entered the room
  120. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai sent a request for Opera, Microsoft, and Apple to contact their engineers and collect feedback on Boris Zbarsky's anonymous table box generation proposal and testcases
  121. # [18:22] <sgalineau> Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
  122. # [18:22] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  123. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think we can productively discuss this ourselves, we should get feedback from the engineers who are working on it
  124. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: and have that feedback sent to www-style
  125. # [18:24] <fantasai> Peter suggests we set a deadline for hearing back, perhaps two or four weeks
  126. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: four weeks should be plenty... that's the 23rd
  127. # [18:24] * dbaron thinks the 23d is 3 weeks and 1 day from now
  128. # [18:25] <dbaron> four weeks is the 29th
  129. # [18:25] * fantasai clearly has trouble with calendars
  130. # [18:25] <fantasai> ACTION: arron send feedback on anonymous table boxes to www-style
  131. # [18:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  132. # [18:25] * RRSAgent records action 3
  133. # [18:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Send feedback on anonymous table boxes to www-style [on Arron Eicholz - due 2009-07-08].
  134. # [18:25] <fantasai> anne?
  135. # [18:26] <fantasai> ACTION: Peter send emails to Opera and Apple requesting feedback on anonymous table boxes from their engineers
  136. # [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 4
  137. # [18:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  138. # [18:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-164 - Send emails to Opera and Apple requesting feedback on anonymous table boxes from their engineers [on Peter Linss - due 2009-07-08].
  139. # [18:27] <fantasai> Topic: IPTV
  140. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm happy to leave that to the chairs.
  141. # [18:27] <fantasai> fantasai: dsinger wrote a very nice template you should be able to use
  142. # [18:28] * sgalineau not web fonts :)
  143. # [18:28] <fantasai> Topic: border-radius and overflow on replaced elements
  144. # [18:29] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jun/0115.html
  145. # [18:29] <fantasai> Hyatt's comments on css3-background:
  146. # [18:29] <fantasai> Looks good. To address dbaron's concern about overflow, we implemented a very lightweight form of overflow:hidden for replaced elements that doesn't allow programmatic scrolling, etc. All it does is clip. This is kind of gross, however, as we now have two types of overflow:hidden in the engine.
  147. # [18:29] <fantasai> Form controls in WebKit also clip their contents anyway completely independently of overflow.
  148. # [18:29] <fantasai> The most elegant solution is probably just to say you always clip replaced element contents to the curve even when overflow is visible. I can't really think of any scenario where you'd want the contents of a replaced element to spill out of the curve.
  149. # [18:30] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jun/0117.html
  150. # [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: So are people happy with always clipping replaced element content to the curve?
  151. # [18:30] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.91.115) (Quit: Leaving...)
  152. # [18:30] <sgalineau> that is what I'd expect from a border, whatever its shape
  153. # [18:31] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  154. # [18:31] <dbaron> oops, I hung up instead of hitting mute
  155. # [18:31] <sgalineau> doh
  156. # [18:31] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  157. # [18:33] <fantasai> dbaron: My one concern is Robert's comment on form controls
  158. # [18:34] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@82.230.92.154) (Client exited)
  159. # [18:34] <fantasai> dbaron: for some replaced form controls, we might need to allow overflow
  160. # [18:34] <fantasai> dbaron: e.g. on Mac the focus ring is this blue glow that overflows
  161. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: can we make an exception for form controls then?
  162. # [18:36] <fantasai> Bert: Why are we doing this?
  163. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: because for authors, they would expect replaced elements to clip to the curve when they specify one
  164. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: and because even for overflow: hidden, this triggers special scrolling behavior in UAs like Mozilla and WebKit that they don't want to have for a bunch of images that don't need it
  165. # [18:43] <sgalineau> fwiw, i don't expect replaced elements to stick out of borders. i'd assume a designer want either the border to clip or expand around the element but not cause an ugly overflow...
  166. # [18:43] <fantasai> Bert is concerned that we are introducing different behavior for replaced elements and other elements
  167. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai explains that from an authors point of view, given that most of the time content fits within its border box and that border-radius clips the background, replaced elements are just acting weird if they don't clip to the curve
  168. # [18:45] <sgalineau> what happens if overflow:visible is set on a replaced element with a border ?
  169. # [18:45] <fantasai> Bert: we'll need css3-page to be updated to not imply that replaced elements can overflow their border box
  170. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: ye
  171. # [18:45] <fantasai> s
  172. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: I'll need to update css3-page to say that
  173. # [18:46] <fantasai> sgalineau, right now nothing happens
  174. # [18:46] <fantasai> sgalineau, setting other values of overflow also doesn't do anything
  175. # [18:46] <sgalineau> so then i wouldn't expect overflow:hidden behavior to be an issue...?
  176. # [18:46] <fantasai> sgalineau, because right now replaced elements never overflow their border
  177. # [18:47] <fantasai> sgalineau, but with border-radius and image-fit this becomes possible
  178. # [18:47] <sgalineau> I prefer keeping the current behavior; it's consistent and, i think, what authors expect
  179. # [18:47] <sgalineau> i.e. clipping
  180. # [18:48] <fantasai> the currently-specified behavior allows overflow, it is not clipping
  181. # [18:48] <fantasai> the proposal is to require clipping
  182. # [18:48] <fantasai> except in cases where the UA determines it to be necessary not to, e.g. form controls
  183. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: my personal preference would be to require authors to specify overflow: hidden if they want this behavior
  184. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: if we only end up with it in the case where authors request it, it's not that huge of a perf issue
  185. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: creating it by default for every image is expensive
  186. # [18:52] <fantasai> sylvain: I would not expect a replaced element to overflow its border, at least by default, that just seems weird
  187. # [18:52] <fantasai> sylvain: If I put a border on an image or a video or anything ...
  188. # [18:53] <fantasai> Sylvain: As an author, I might set a border and put an image inside it or set an image and put a border around it, but I wouldn't expect to have a border and the image overflow the border
  189. # [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think we can implement this in time for CR
  190. # [18:54] <fantasai> peter: I'm uncomfortable with special-casing things
  191. # [18:54] <fantasai> peter: currently you can't make it overflow, what about in the future?
  192. # [18:55] <fantasai> peter: we're introducing new properties that cause overflow
  193. # [18:55] <fantasai> sylvain: ... why do we want these new properties introduce the ability to overflow for these elements?
  194. # [18:56] <fantasai> sylvain: Did we have authors complaining about not being able to overflow replaced elements before this?
  195. # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: it's just an implementation artifact
  196. # [18:57] <fantasai> sylvain: FWIW I'm just more comfortable with the existing behavior remaining where it was, i.e. no overflow
  197. # [18:57] <fantasai> Sylvain: Rather than requiring people to specify extra properties
  198. # [18:57] <fantasai> Sylvain: Especially since there seems to be no demand or use case scenario for it
  199. # [18:58] <fantasai> Sylvain: Rounding the border shouldn't cause overflow, I just would not expect that
  200. # [19:00] <sgalineau> I just would not expect that styling the border differently would affect overflow.
  201. # [19:01] <fantasai> Peter: Why can't we just require people to set overflow: hidden
  202. # [19:01] <fantasai> Bert: CSS2 currently says that overflow doesn't apply to replaced element, it would be easy to keep it that way
  203. # [19:02] <fantasai> Bert imagines someone creating a map with a small viewport with scrollbars
  204. # [19:03] <fantasai> Peter is averse to special-casing things, but isn't going to hold things up here for it
  205. # [19:04] <fantasai> peter: we can always unwind it with further properties if necessary
  206. # [19:05] <fantasai> RESOLVED: accept that overflow: visible does not allow replaced content to overflow
  207. # [19:06] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  208. # [19:06] <Zakim> -sgalineau
  209. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  210. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  211. # [19:06] <Zakim> -plinss
  212. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  213. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Bert
  214. # [19:06] <Zakim> -glazou
  215. # [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  216. # [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, +1.206.324.aabb, glazou, sgalineau, David_Baron, Bert, fantasai, alexmog, arronei, [Mozilla]
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  231. # Session Close: Thu Jul 02 00:00:00 2009

The end :)