/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-07-22 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 22 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:12] * Quits: plinss_ (peter.lins@15.243.169.70) (Quit: plinss_)
  4. # [01:05] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@69.140.1.234) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  5. # [02:58] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  6. # [03:11] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.111) (Ping timeout)
  7. # [03:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  8. # [03:43] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  9. # [04:29] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  10. # [05:02] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  11. # [06:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  12. # [06:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  13. # [08:46] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  14. # [09:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  15. # [10:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  16. # [12:00] * Joins: anne2 (annevk@83.85.115.15)
  17. # [12:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  18. # [13:04] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@69.140.1.234)
  19. # [13:19] * Joins: myakura (myakura@211.11.13.125)
  20. # [16:33] * Disconnected
  21. # [16:34] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
  22. # [16:34] * Rejoined channel #css
  23. # [16:45] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@70.7.32.192)
  24. # [16:48] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@70.7.32.192) (Ping timeout)
  25. # [16:49] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@70.7.32.192)
  26. # [17:02] * Parts: anne2 (annevk@83.85.115.15)
  27. # [17:03] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@70.7.32.192) (Ping timeout)
  28. # [17:08] * Joins: anne2 (annevk@83.85.115.15)
  29. # [17:09] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@70.7.32.192)
  30. # [17:12] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@70.7.32.192) (Ping timeout)
  31. # [17:13] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.101.85)
  32. # [17:16] <bradk> Zakim, what conferences?
  33. # [17:16] <bradk> Zkim, what conferences?
  34. # [17:17] <bradk> doh!
  35. # [17:19] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  36. # [17:19] <anne2> Zakim, list
  37. # [17:19] <Zakim> I see T&S_EGOV()10:30AM, WAI_PFWG(F2F)8:30AM, W3C_(SearchComm)10:45AM, SW_HCLS(LODD)11:00AM, Team_(sn)14:33Z, MM_MMI(dialog)11:00AM active
  38. # [17:19] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are GA_WebCGM()11:00AM, SEC_WSCWG()11:00AM, HTML_Forms()10:45AM, WAI_EOWG(BAD TF)11:00AM
  39. # [17:27] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  40. # [17:37] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.112)
  41. # [17:46] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  42. # [17:47] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  43. # [17:47] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-CSS-irc
  44. # [17:47] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  45. # [17:47] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
  46. # [17:52] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@82.230.92.154) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437])
  47. # [17:56] * Joins: oyvinds (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  48. # [18:00] * bradk was able to figure out IRC enough to join the room today. It's been a while since I last used IRC.
  49. # [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  50. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
  51. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Brad_Kemper
  52. # [18:03] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
  53. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  54. # [18:05] * glazou has some issues with the phone/bridge ; retyring
  55. # [18:06] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  56. # [18:06] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  57. # [18:06] <glazou> ah
  58. # [18:06] <Zakim> +glazou
  59. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  60. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  61. # [18:07] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.112) (Connection reset by peer)
  62. # [18:07] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
  63. # [18:07] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-CSS-irc#T16-02-31
  64. # [18:07] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  65. # [18:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  66. # [18:08] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.114)
  67. # [18:08] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.113)
  68. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Bert
  69. # [18:08] <sgalineau> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
  70. # [18:08] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  71. # [18:08] <ChrisL> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JulSep/0025.html
  72. # [18:11] <sgalineau> Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
  73. # [18:11] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  74. # [18:11] <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
  75. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, Brad_Kemper, [Mozilla], glazou, [Microsoft], ChrisL, Bert
  76. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
  77. # [18:11] <Zakim> On IRC I see sgalineau, arronei, ChrisL, oyvinds, RRSAgent, glazou, Zakim, bradk, anne2, krijnh, karl, myakura, dbaron, shepazu, jdaggett, Lachy, fantasai, trackbot, Hixie, Bert,
  78. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  79. # [18:11] <Zakim> ... plinss
  80. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P7
  81. # [18:13] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P7 is fantasai
  82. # [18:13] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  83. # [18:14] <ChrisL> Scribe: ChrisL
  84. # [18:14] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  85. # [18:15] <ChrisL> Chair: Peter
  86. # [18:15] <dbaron> hmmm, my internet connection seems to have soured so as to make voip unusable...
  87. # [18:15] <ChrisL> Meeting: CSS WG telcon
  88. # [18:15] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  89. # [18:15] <glazou> dbaron: : same thing here, lot of noise
  90. # [18:16] <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
  91. # [18:16] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been plinss, Brad_Kemper, David_Baron, glazou, ChrisL, Bert, sylvaing, arronei, fantasai, SteveZ
  92. # [18:16] <ChrisL> Topic: CSS3 Background
  93. # [18:17] * glazou tries to rejoin, far too much noise
  94. # [18:17] <Zakim> -glazou
  95. # [18:17] <ChrisL> CL: I sent in a proposal http://www.w3.org/2009/07/B-and-B/border-image-shadow-combine.html
  96. # [18:18] <Zakim> +glazou
  97. # [18:18] * glazou grrr same thing
  98. # [18:19] * sgalineau is positive the wallpaper in his room as a kid was an orange version of the src image in chrisl's document. that explains a lot.
  99. # [18:20] <dbaron> I think we should post this proposal to www-style and try to get some feedback.
  100. # [18:21] <ChrisL> BB: Prefer the 4.2 opaque box solution
  101. # [18:21] <ChrisL> BK: prefer the one with shaddows all round
  102. # [18:21] <ChrisL> CL: Thats actually two shadows, one inset
  103. # [18:22] <ChrisL> DG: Prefer the one with the alpha chanel.
  104. # [18:22] <ChrisL> ... often asked hhow to do that
  105. # [18:22] <ChrisL> BK: Anyone that can crwate an image can also create a drop shadow
  106. # [18:23] <ChrisL> DG: I have a counter example, want the user agent to be able to use the alpha channel
  107. # [18:23] <fantasai> DG: counter-example, making an app and want to add shadows through the app
  108. # [18:24] <fantasai> DB: Leaning towards not including the shadow, because it may often not be quite right
  109. # [18:24] <dbaron> DB: I think I might lean towards agreeing with BK, because this feels like the type of feature where we spend a lot of work implementing something that doesn't quite do what authors want, so nobody uses it.
  110. # [18:25] <ChrisL> DB: Prefer to disable box-shadow
  111. # [18:25] <dbaron> CL: shadow incoporated into border-image doesn't work with the slicing
  112. # [18:25] <ChrisL> CL: I have an example not linked in which puts a drop shadow on the source ; the slicing is then wrong
  113. # [18:26] <ChrisL> DB: yes, can't get that with the author making their own shadow in the source image
  114. # [18:26] <ChrisL> DG: Shadows not aligned with circles, so slicing will mess up the shadow. Woudl need two images, one for the shadow and one for the image itself
  115. # [18:27] <ChrisL> SZ: If images distort the shadow distorts differently
  116. # [18:27] <ChrisL> DG: Web designers want to apply the effects dynamically
  117. # [18:28] <ChrisL> CL: Could animate the drop shadow. Lighting effect on mouse position for example
  118. # [18:28] <sgalineau> example of ChrisL's dynamic shadow update based on mouse position with text-shadow: § ACID3
  119. # [18:28] <sgalineau> § Evaluate score for current plan
  120. # [18:28] <sgalineau> § >ACID3::003-025
  121. # [18:28] <sgalineau> DOMCanvas
  122. # [18:28] <sgalineau> doh
  123. # [18:28] <sgalineau> http://www.zachstronaut.com/lab/text-shadow-box/text-shadow-box.html
  124. # [18:28] <ChrisL> BK: Agree its powerful, but should be a separate property that works on all images
  125. # [18:28] <ChrisL> sz: how about renaming the property border-shadow instead of box-shadow
  126. # [18:29] <ChrisL> EE: everyone is using this property already, so its hard to change even with vendor prefixes
  127. # [18:30] <ChrisL> DB: people will have to change anyway
  128. # [18:30] <fantasai> CL: Creating a version of the image with drop-shadow and then slicing and tiling it was really gross
  129. # [18:31] <ChrisL> EE: In applications the spacing is critical
  130. # [18:31] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  131. # [18:31] <ChrisL> DB; Pages not useing it due to patchy browser support
  132. # [18:31] * dbaron can't hear a thing
  133. # [18:32] <fantasai> Chris: I had a section in the document that shows the result with a solid box
  134. # [18:32] <fantasai> Chris: to show that it's the same as with drop-shadow on a solid border
  135. # [18:32] <fantasai> Brad: Already starting to think about what it currently does with box-shadow
  136. # [18:32] <fantasai> Brad: It doesn't follow the alpha-image of the actual border
  137. # [18:33] <fantasai> Brad: not using alpha channels
  138. # [18:33] <fantasai> CL: alpha-image of a solid rectangle is a solid rectangle
  139. # [18:33] <fantasai> Brad: But it's not if it's dots or dashes
  140. # [18:33] <fantasai> Brad: For this image seems like you can't slice it very well
  141. # [18:34] <fantasai> Brad: But for a lot of things I would use, e.g. for fancy corners on a straight-edged box
  142. # [18:34] <fantasai> Brad: would be able to use the images for the shadow
  143. # [18:34] <fantasai> Chris: I think when you actually try it, it won't work
  144. # [18:34] <fantasai> Peter: I'm sure there are some images where it would look right, but a lot where it wouldn't
  145. # [18:35] <sgalineau> can someone post the lamp demo page ?
  146. # [18:36] <fantasai> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
  147. # [18:36] <fantasai> Brad: Either way you are going to be restricted
  148. # [18:36] <dbaron> s/DB; Pages not useing it due to patchy browser support/DB: I think the reason the change would cause more breakage for iPhone (etc.) applications than Web pages is that Web pages aren't using it because not all browsers support it yet
  149. # [18:36] <fantasai> Brad: E.g. in Chris's example you can't create complex effects
  150. # [18:36] * dbaron can mostly hear again, fwiw
  151. # [18:37] <fantasai> Brad: Restriction on my way is that you can't animate it and certain types of images where you have a big corner and things narrowing as they come towards the corner.. that would be something you can't do with my way
  152. # [18:37] <fantasai> Steve: There's nothing that prevents someone from /not/ adding the drop-shadow and putting it in the image
  153. # [18:38] <fantasai> Brad: But then you can't use drop-shadow as a fallback
  154. # [18:38] <fantasai> Fantasai: I think that's less important than being able to get these cases right
  155. # [18:40] <ChrisL> EE: Maybe we could use media queries in the future to detect images being turned off. But the fallback issue sis not enough to block using drop shadows on border images
  156. # [18:42] <fantasai> EE: We have a large chunk of use cases that can only be achieved by including the shadow in the image, and also a large chunk of use cases that can only be achieved by dynamically applying the border
  157. # [18:43] <fantasai> Peter: I think box-shadow and border-image are separate things and I don't think they should be combined like this.
  158. # [18:43] <fantasai> Peter: I think we should have a border-shadow property instead.
  159. # [18:44] <fantasai> Peter: Put a switch on it to get different behaviors.
  160. # [18:44] <ChrisL> so then the dashed borders would also behave like this?
  161. # [18:44] <fantasai> Steve: I like the solution that has border-shadow apply to both regular borders and image borders
  162. # [18:44] <fantasai> Steve: and box-shadow does what it does now
  163. # [18:45] <dbaron> Brad: ... where box-shadow is not drawn when there's a border-image.
  164. # [18:46] * Bert wonders when somebody will suggest border-light-sources, border-ambient-light, border-viewer-distance, border-reflectivity, border-transform, border-texture, border-backside-color...
  165. # [18:46] <fantasai> Chris: So are we going to move forward with border-shadow now, or reserve that for a future version?
  166. # [18:46] * fantasai use SVG filters
  167. # [18:46] * dbaron agrees with Bert that more general mechanisms would probably be good here
  168. # [18:46] <fantasai> Chris: Are we adding this now?
  169. # [18:47] <fantasai> Chris: Just copy the box-shadow property definition and tweak it
  170. # [18:47] <fantasai> Chris: spread for arbitrary images is not defined
  171. # [18:48] <fantasai> Brad: We also talked about having switches in the property, might delay CR
  172. # [18:48] <ChrisL> i'm hapy to add a border-shadow to the spec, and add an example that has a dashed border
  173. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: We also need to get this discussion on www-style
  174. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: I want to make sure roc and hyatt agree with whatever we decide to do here
  175. # [18:49] <ChrisL> sz: update this first to be a border-shadow
  176. # [18:50] <fantasai> s/this/Chris's proposal document/
  177. # [18:50] <fantasai> Brad: They can also read the minutes of this meeting, too, right?
  178. # [18:50] * dbaron lost sound again
  179. # [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: Why not put the switch on box-shadow?
  180. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: You wouldn't use both properties at the same time anyway
  181. # [18:51] <ChrisL> action: chris to revise the border-image-and-box-shadow proposal to make a border-shadow proposal, them make public
  182. # [18:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  183. # [18:51] * RRSAgent records action 1
  184. # [18:51] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - chris
  185. # [18:51] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ChrisWilson, clilley)
  186. # [18:51] <fantasai> Steve: In your examples, the shadow didn't look like it was on the box, it looked like it was on the border
  187. # [18:51] <ChrisL> action: lilley to revise the border-image-and-box-shadow proposal to make a border-shadow proposal, them make public
  188. # [18:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  189. # [18:51] * RRSAgent records action 2
  190. # [18:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-165 - Revise the border-image-and-box-shadow proposal to make a border-shadow proposal, them make public [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-07-29].
  191. # [18:52] * dbaron can hear again
  192. # [18:52] <fantasai> Steve: I would prefer Chris write it up as a separate property and then suggest that it could be merged
  193. # [18:52] <ChrisL> sz: note at the end that this could be done with a switch on box-shadow
  194. # [18:53] <fantasai> ACTION: Chris write up border-shadow proposal
  195. # [18:53] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  196. # [18:53] * RRSAgent records action 3
  197. # [18:53] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Chris
  198. # [18:53] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ChrisWilson, clilley)
  199. # [18:53] <fantasai> ACTION: clilley write up border-shadow proposal
  200. # [18:53] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  201. # [18:53] * RRSAgent records action 4
  202. # [18:53] <trackbot> Created ACTION-166 - Write up border-shadow proposal [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-07-29].
  203. # [18:53] <ChrisL> I can revise the proposal and make it public for Friday
  204. # [18:53] <ChrisL> Topic; flexbox and css3 images
  205. # [18:54] <fantasai> Topic: Publication status of flexbox and css3-images
  206. # [18:54] <fantasai> Bert: Will be officially published tomorrow
  207. # [18:54] <ChrisL> bb: they wil be published tomorrow
  208. # [18:54] <ChrisL> ... fixed a few markup errors, so please do a cvs update before further edits
  209. # [18:54] <fantasai> Bert: longer answer is, I had to fix markup errors in the drafts, so next time you update do cvs update first
  210. # [18:55] <fantasai> ScribeNick: ChrisL
  211. # [18:55] <ChrisL> Topic: Percentage corners
  212. # [18:55] <ChrisL> EE: Add this or defer? Already added in Mozilla
  213. # [18:56] <ChrisL> ... and they will be removing the vendor prefix soon
  214. # [18:56] <ChrisL> ... prefer to defer it therefore
  215. # [18:56] <ChrisL> DB: Need to remember to remove it when we drop the border prefix
  216. # [18:56] <ChrisL> PL: This has been implemented since the 890s*
  217. # [18:56] <ChrisL> s/890/*90/
  218. # [18:57] <ChrisL> DB: Don't reacll seeing actual uses of it
  219. # [18:57] <ChrisL> BK; Does the prefix form continue to be supported?
  220. # [18:57] <ChrisL> DB: probably not
  221. # [18:58] <ChrisL> PL: Whats the problem with having percentage values in there?
  222. # [18:58] <fantasai> s/therefore/as we decided earlier, but wondering if it's possible for Mozilla to remove at this point or if we have to define this so it doesn't conflict later on/
  223. # [18:58] <ChrisL> EE: There are two differing interpretations of what a percentage means
  224. # [18:58] <ChrisL> BK: Suggested on www-style how to handle them
  225. # [18:59] <ChrisL> ... one is based on width, two is based on the relevant side
  226. # [18:59] <ChrisL> DB; Agree with Hakon and say they are always based on width or height
  227. # [18:59] <ChrisL> ... if you want a particular shape you will use particular units
  228. # [19:00] <ChrisL> BK: How do you get ovals?
  229. # [19:00] * sgalineau would not be surprised if some authors filed a bug when they got an oval...
  230. # [19:00] <ChrisL> DB; One alsways based on width the other based on height
  231. # [19:01] <fantasai> s/one/one radius/
  232. # [19:01] <ChrisL> SZ: So its based on the border thickness?
  233. # [19:01] <ChrisL> DB: No the size of the box
  234. # [19:01] <dbaron> so you'd get a circle with border-radius: 50%
  235. # [19:01] <dbaron> or an ellipse
  236. # [19:01] <dbaron> depending on the shape of the box
  237. # [19:01] <fantasai> Brad: If you want quarter-circle corners that are not ellipses, then you don't use percentages
  238. # [19:01] <fantasai> Brad: 10% height is different from 10% width
  239. # [19:01] <ChrisL> BK: So if you want quarter circle corners, you just can't use percentages?
  240. # [19:02] <fantasai> Peter: The only thing you couldn't get that way is a percentage-based curve that is always circular
  241. # [19:02] <ChrisL> PL: If there is only one dimension specified, make it the width. Then you can get both behaviours
  242. # [19:03] <ChrisL> ... always get a circular border
  243. # [19:03] <fantasai> Peter: I kinda like Brad's idea that the percentage is always based on the width if you only specify one percentage
  244. # [19:04] <ChrisL> EE: Normally if there are two values and you can drip them, its duplicated, but does not give different behaviour
  245. # [19:04] <ChrisL> ... so its not like other shorthands
  246. # [19:04] * Zakim ChrisL, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  247. # [19:04] <fantasai> s/drip them/drop one/
  248. # [19:04] <ChrisL> SZ; Its duplicating the computed value, not the specified one
  249. # [19:05] <fantasai> Peter: Another way to get that would be to have a width unit. 0.5width
  250. # [19:05] <ChrisL> PL; Or make new units like a width unit. ).5W
  251. # [19:05] <ChrisL> s/)/0/
  252. # [19:05] <ChrisL> ... width 50% is the same as 0.5W
  253. # [19:05] * Quits: myakura (myakura@211.11.13.125) (Quit: Leaving...)
  254. # [19:05] <ChrisL> ... could be introduced down the road
  255. # [19:06] <ChrisL> EE; opera also has percentages implemented
  256. # [19:06] <ChrisL> BB; Any other case where you want percentages, apart from elliptical boxes?
  257. # [19:06] <ChrisL> s/;/:/g
  258. # [19:06] <anne2> (if this is about borders, we might have removed those due to compat issues)
  259. # [19:07] <Zakim> -Brad_Kemper
  260. # [19:07] <anne2> (supporting percentages there, that is)
  261. # [19:07] <fantasai> anne2, yes, this is about borders
  262. # [19:07] <anne2> (sites were using it expecting it not to work)
  263. # [19:07] <sgalineau> i believe i've seen border-radius used to make a circle
  264. # [19:07] <ChrisL> PL; Mac buttons with rounded ends irrespective of button length
  265. # [19:07] <fantasai> anne2, huh?
  266. # [19:08] <anne2> fantasai, what is unclear?
  267. # [19:08] * bradk lost his phone connection
  268. # [19:08] * ChrisL we are out of time anyway
  269. # [19:08] <fantasai> Bert gives an example of resizing his window so the box resizes, and that causes the padding to not be enough and text overlaps the border
  270. # [19:08] <fantasai> ...
  271. # [19:08] <ChrisL> SZ; If I make the corner a constant size and make the box bigger the corner becomes more square. Don't want that
  272. # [19:09] <fantasai> anne2, why they would want to use it expecting it not to work
  273. # [19:09] <ChrisL> s/;/:/g
  274. # [19:09] <ChrisL> EE; Anne says percent border radius might have been removed from Opera
  275. # [19:09] <ChrisL> SZ; not been in a released build anyway
  276. # [19:09] <ChrisL> s/;/:/g
  277. # [19:10] <ChrisL> SZ: Like Brad and Peter's suggestion with the single value
  278. # [19:10] <anne2> fantasai, dunno, the Web is a fun place
  279. # [19:11] <anne2> fantasai, you should know, you've done QA :)
  280. # [19:11] <ChrisL> PL: Not hearing consensus, out of time
  281. # [19:11] <sgalineau> fantasai, i don't expect the browser i use to work :)
  282. # [19:11] <anne2> fantasai, I guess they were just trying something, didn't work in IE, but didn't remove it
  283. # [19:11] <ChrisL> adjourned
  284. # [19:11] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  285. # [19:11] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  286. # [19:11] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
  287. # [19:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
  288. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  289. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Bert
  290. # [19:11] <Zakim> -plinss
  291. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glazou
  292. # [19:11] <Zakim> -fantasai
  293. # [19:11] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  294. # [19:12] <fantasai> dbaron, what do you think of the # of values solution?
  295. # [19:12] <dbaron> fantasai, I think it's ugly but I can live with it.
  296. # [19:14] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.101.85) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  297. # [19:15] * fantasai doesn't have an opinion, just wants this spec to stabilize :/
  298. # [19:16] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  299. # [19:16] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  300. # [19:16] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, Brad_Kemper, David_Baron, glazou, ChrisL, Bert, sylvaing, arronei, fantasai, SteveZ
  301. # [19:17] * Quits: anne2 (annevk@83.85.115.15) (Ping timeout)
  302. # [19:20] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114)
  303. # [19:20] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.113) (Connection reset by peer)
  304. # [19:22] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  305. # [19:37] * Quits: oyvinds (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvinds)
  306. # [19:37] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@206.170.126.66)
  307. # [19:47] * Joins: anne2 (annevk@83.85.115.15)
  308. # [20:06] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@206.170.126.66) (Quit: dsinger)
  309. # [20:07] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215])
  310. # [20:17] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@206.170.126.98)
  311. # [20:21] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@206.170.126.98) (Quit: dsinger)
  312. # [20:22] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@206.170.126.98)
  313. # [20:55] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Core Breach)
  314. # [20:59] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@206.170.126.98) (Quit: dsinger)
  315. # [21:16] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  316. # [21:16] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  317. # [21:17] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  318. # [21:44] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@206.170.126.66)
  319. # [22:37] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.201.21.231)
  320. # [22:37] <hyatt> dbaron: yt?
  321. # [22:37] <dbaron> hyatt, yep
  322. # [22:38] <hyatt> dbaron: do you know any reason why background-clip doesn't support content-box?
  323. # [22:38] <hyatt> our implementation in webkit does
  324. # [22:38] <hyatt> it's not clear to me why content-box is not in the list at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#background-clip
  325. # [22:38] <dbaron> I think it was just because nobody thought of a use case
  326. # [22:38] <hyatt> just seems kind of odd when you compare with background-origin
  327. # [22:39] <dbaron> I don't think there would be opposition to putting it back if you feel strongly, though.
  328. # [22:39] <hyatt> fantasai: ping
  329. # [22:39] <dbaron> It does seem a little odd, and it makes handling the shorthand a little odd too.
  330. # [22:39] <dbaron> But I'm sort of ok with either way.
  331. # [22:39] <hyatt> i'd like it put back in
  332. # [22:39] <hyatt> just simplifies things imo
  333. # [22:39] <hyatt> if the parsing of those two properties is the same
  334. # [22:40] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.114) (Ping timeout)
  335. # [22:46] <fantasai> hyatt: pong
  336. # [22:47] <fantasai> hyatt: We left it out because you almost never want to clip to the content-box
  337. # [22:47] <hyatt> fantasai: pretty please on putting content-box back in to background-clip? :)
  338. # [22:47] <fantasai> hyatt: makes the shorthand a mess if you have to explicitly undo background-clip: content-box when you want to set the origin
  339. # [22:48] <fantasai> hyatt: give me a really convincing reason and I'll consider reopening the issue, but we've discussed it a few times already
  340. # [22:48] <hyatt> eh i don't care that much
  341. # [22:48] <hyatt> mostly concerned about breakage
  342. # [22:48] <hyatt> since we support this now
  343. # [22:48] <fantasai> hyatt: what would you use it for?
  344. # [22:48] <hyatt> no idea, just had it for completeness
  345. # [22:49] <fantasai> hyatt: content-box clipping is almost always too close to the content, you pretty much always want some padding around the content
  346. # [22:49] <hyatt> we just matched origin and clip
  347. # [22:49] <fantasai> hyatt: I'd expect less than 1% usage
  348. # [22:49] <hyatt> yeah the scary part is as i update our syntax i have to make the background shorthand obey the finalized versions
  349. # [22:49] <hyatt> that's what i'm most scared of
  350. # [22:49] <hyatt> the background-clip property itself i'm not worried about
  351. # [22:49] <hyatt> since dropping the prefix lets me change that
  352. # [22:50] <hyatt> but the shorthand is scary
  353. # [22:50] <fantasai> yeah
  354. # [22:50] <fantasai> I wouldn't worry too much about breakage for background-clip: content-box
  355. # [22:50] <fantasai> I can't think of a single reason why you'd want to use it, and nobody's come up with one whenever we've discussed it
  356. # [22:50] <fantasai> :)
  357. # [22:51] <hyatt> ok i'll just add separate parsing paths for both
  358. # [22:51] <fantasai> iirc the shorthand only takes one -box value
  359. # [22:51] * hyatt is starting his big push to implement the unprefixed props and put this spec to bed
  360. # [22:51] <fantasai> cool
  361. # [22:52] <hyatt> oh you can't specify clip in the shorthand any more!
  362. # [22:52] <hyatt> yikes
  363. # [22:52] <hyatt> i didn't notice that
  364. # [22:53] <hyatt> i don't understand that change?
  365. # [22:53] <hyatt> why would clip not be in the shorthand if it can apply in every layer of multiple bgs
  366. # [22:54] <hyatt> oh.If ‘background-origin’ is present and its value matches a possible value for ‘background-clip’ then it also sets ‘background-clip’ to that value
  367. # [22:54] <hyatt> i see.
  368. # [22:54] <hyatt> tricksy.
  369. # [22:55] <hyatt> fantasai: so the shorthand parsing would certainly be simplified if background-clip could take content-box
  370. # [22:55] <hyatt> then you don't have the oddity of being unable to set background-clip from the shorthand when background-origin is content-box
  371. # [22:56] * hyatt thinks it's odd that there is a situation where background-clip just can't be set in the shorthand
  372. # [22:58] <fantasai> if we made background: content-box; set background-clip: content-box as well as background-origin: content-box, nobody would ever use it
  373. # [22:58] <fantasai> you might want to position your image wrt the content box, but you almost never want to clip it to that box
  374. # [22:59] <hyatt> i'm approaching this more from a parsing perspective without caring about use cases
  375. # [22:59] <hyatt> just from a pure syntax perspective it's odd to me that a property can't be set
  376. # [22:59] <hyatt> in the shorthand
  377. # [22:59] <fantasai> there's so much stuff in the shorthand already
  378. # [22:59] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.112)
  379. # [23:00] <hyatt> more special case parsing code it is then
  380. # [23:00] <hyatt> heh
  381. # [23:00] <fantasai> This is one less thing to remember. You usually want the origin and cliprect to match anyway (except when it's content-box)
  382. # [23:04] * Quits: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.112) (Quit: sgalineau)
  383. # [23:06] * Quits: anne2 (annevk@83.85.115.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  384. # [23:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  385. # [23:43] <hyatt> fantasai: if background-attachment is not local
  386. # [23:43] <hyatt> fantasai: i assume background-origin of padding-box just uses a fictional padding box that doesnt care about scrolling
  387. # [23:44] <hyatt> term padding-box is kind of funny in that case heh
  388. # [23:45] <fantasai> background-attachment not local is the 2.1 case
  389. # [23:45] <hyatt> right
  390. # [23:45] <fantasai> why do we need a fictional padding box?
  391. # [23:45] * fantasai isn't following
  392. # [23:45] <hyatt> asking how that interacts with background-clip/origin of padding-box
  393. # [23:45] <hyatt> well let's say you have an overflow:auto div
  394. # [23:45] <hyatt> and the border box is 300x300
  395. # [23:45] <hyatt> but the padding box scrolls
  396. # [23:45] <hyatt> so it is 1000x1000
  397. # [23:46] <fantasai> then the background is attached to the viewport
  398. # [23:46] <fantasai> so it doesn't scroll
  399. # [23:46] <fantasai> in the !local case
  400. # [23:46] <fantasai> it's just fixed to the border, as it were
  401. # [23:46] <hyatt> yes, but what does that mean when used with clip/origin of padding/content
  402. # [23:46] <fantasai> well the viewport is inside the paddng box
  403. # [23:47] <fantasai> so padding-box is not an issue
  404. # [23:47] <fantasai> origin content-box might be
  405. # [23:47] <fantasai> hm
  406. # [23:47] <hyatt> ok it's obvious you don't really use the padding-box in 2.1
  407. # [23:47] <hyatt> it's just a synthetic padding-box
  408. # [23:47] <hyatt> inside the border
  409. # [23:47] <hyatt> totally ignoring the scrolling
  410. # [23:47] <hyatt> which is fine but not really spelled out
  411. # [23:48] <fantasai> ok, yeah, so you have two conceptual padding boxes
  412. # [23:48] <fantasai> the one inside the viewport
  413. # [23:48] <fantasai> and the one outside the viewport
  414. # [23:48] <fantasai> they coincide when there's no scrolling
  415. # [23:48] <hyatt> right
  416. # [23:48] <fantasai> it makes sense here to use the outer padding-box when you're attached to the border
  417. # [23:48] <fantasai> and the inner padding box when you're attached to the content (i.e. local)
  418. # [23:48] <hyatt> right
  419. # [23:49] <hyatt> i think the spec should probably clarify this
  420. # [23:49] <hyatt> content-box has the same issue
  421. # [23:49] <fantasai> ok
  422. # [23:49] <fantasai> yeah
  423. # [23:49] <hyatt> two conceptual content boxes
  424. # [23:49] <fantasai> border-box has the opposite issue
  425. # [23:49] <hyatt> right which you addressed by stating you could just clip
  426. # [23:49] <fantasai> and the spec says what to do there
  427. # [23:50] <fantasai> yeah, I guess you have to create a conceptual content box that's fixed to the border-box
  428. # [23:50] <fantasai> and position wrt that
  429. # [23:50] <fantasai> good catch
  430. # [23:50] <fantasai> I'll add some text for it
  431. # [23:50] * fantasai wonders what Mozilla does
  432. # Session Close: Thu Jul 23 00:00:00 2009

The end :)