/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-08-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 12 14:02:35 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [14:02] * Now talking in #css
  4. # [14:13] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
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  6. # Session Start: Wed Aug 12 14:22:57 2009
  7. # Session Ident: #css
  8. # [14:22] * Now talking in #css
  9. # [15:12] <anne2> Bert, any luck?
  10. # [15:13] <Bert> With the grammar? Yes, that seems to work.
  11. # [15:13] <Bert> Now that I have actual C code, I'm trying to find other bugs...
  12. # [15:20] <anne2> shall I check in a change that assumes CSS2 defines media_query_list and obsoletes the empty list thingy that was present before?
  13. # [15:22] <Bert> It's on the agenda for tonight. If you edit it now, you take a risk that you have to undo it again :-)
  14. # [15:23] <anne2> oh, unfortunately I cannot dial in tonight
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  30. # [18:03] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  31. # [18:03] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-CSS-irc
  32. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.101.85)
  33. # [18:03] * Joins: dsinger_ (mobile@67.218.102.132)
  34. # [18:03] <dbaron> Zakim, this is style
  35. # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, dbaron; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  36. # [18:03] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  37. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger, [Microsoft]
  38. # [18:04] <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
  39. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  40. # [18:04] <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
  41. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
  42. # [18:04] * Joins: sgalineau (sylvaing@131.107.0.112)
  43. # [18:05] <dsinger_> Zakim, i am dsinger
  44. # [18:05] <Zakim> ok, dsinger_, I now associate you with dsinger
  45. # [18:05] <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
  46. # [18:05] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  47. # [18:06] <dsinger_> Welcome to the 12 step group Confusing Specs Support
  48. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Bert
  49. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  50. # [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
  51. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  52. # [18:07] * dsinger_ changes topic to 'Confusing Specs Support group'
  53. # [18:07] * anne2 ... aka Submarine Squadron 11
  54. # [18:09] * dsinger_ how were you hurt bu confusing specs as a child, Herr Baron?
  55. # [18:09] <sgalineau> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
  56. # [18:09] <Zakim> +sylvaing, arronei; got it
  57. # [18:09] <Zakim> +hyatt
  58. # [18:09] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.119)
  59. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P16
  60. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Hakon_Lie
  61. # [18:09] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P16 is fantasai
  62. # [18:10] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  63. # [18:10] * dsinger_ Hi
  64. # [18:10] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30)
  65. # [18:10] * bradk is still figuring out how to use Zakim
  66. # [18:10] <ChrisL> zakim, help
  67. # [18:10] <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
  68. # [18:10] <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
  69. # [18:11] <Zakim> xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
  70. # [18:11] <Zakim> if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
  71. # [18:11] <Zakim> xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
  72. # [18:11] <Zakim> I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
  73. # [18:11] <Zakim> xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
  74. # [18:11] <Zakim> xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
  75. # [18:11] <Zakim> who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
  76. # [18:11] <Zakim> who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
  77. # [18:11] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  78. # [18:11] <Zakim> mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
  79. # [18:11] <Zakim> unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
  80. # [18:11] <Zakim> is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
  81. # [18:11] <Zakim> list conferences - reports the active conferences
  82. # [18:11] <bradk> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  83. # [18:11] <Zakim> this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
  84. # [18:11] <Zakim> excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
  85. # [18:11] <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/12/09 02:16:52 $
  86. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL
  87. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
  88. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
  89. # [18:12] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  90. # [18:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: here
  91. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-CSS-irc#T16-06-44
  92. # [18:12] <fantasai> Zakim, who is here?
  93. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL
  94. # [18:12] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  95. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  96. # [18:12] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
  97. # [18:12] <Zakim> On IRC I see fantasai, ChrisL, howcome, sgalineau, dsinger_, bradk, RRSAgent, Zakim, oyvinds, hyatt, dbaron, anne2, myakura, krijnh, karl, CesarAcebal, Lachy, dsinger, plinss_,
  98. # [18:12] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
  99. # [18:12] <Zakim> ... shepazu, Hixie, plinss, Bert, trackbot
  100. # [18:13] <fantasai> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JulSep/0054.html
  101. # [18:13] <fantasai> Topic: Gradients
  102. # [18:13] <fantasai> Hyatt: Now that we have css3-image module, it seems like gradients work that is implemented in Mozilla and WebKit would fit well in there
  103. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +49.238.aaaa
  104. # [18:13] <fantasai> Hyatt: Both Robert and I saw that draft and thought it would be a logical fit
  105. # [18:14] <fantasai> Brad: Think it's a good idea
  106. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: I had a blank Gradients section in there before publication
  107. # [18:14] <fantasai> Hyatt: Mozilla and WebKit's syntax are very different
  108. # [18:14] <fantasai> Hyatt: So Robert and I need to start working on text for it
  109. # [18:14] <CesarAcebal> zakim, +49.238.aaaa is me
  110. # [18:14] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  111. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: Looking at Mozilla page, can't see it.
  112. # [18:15] <fantasai> dbaron: Need to use 3.6 alpha
  113. # [18:15] <fantasai> howcome: You can also do gradients with inset box-shadows, but this is a better solution
  114. # [18:15] <dsinger_> Hm. If Chris can't see it, what is the fallback?
  115. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: I think the syntax is very verbose. Is it verbose because we need room for extensions, or is it verbose because no one's bothered to simplify it yet
  116. # [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: I'm strongly opposed to gradients in CSS. you can do this with background images
  117. # [18:18] * dbaron notes it was hyatt speaking
  118. # [18:18] <fantasai> ?: It gives a chance to reduce bandwidth greatly.
  119. # [18:18] <dbaron> s/?:/hyatt:/
  120. # [18:18] * ChrisL thinks it was hyatt
  121. # [18:18] <dbaron> hyatt: Web inspector was able to remove 40 images (or was it 40K images?)
  122. # [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: Next people are going to reimplement SVG in CSS, I don't want to get there
  123. # [18:19] <fantasai> Sylvain: IE has proved that people go through great lengths to reproduce features, and they hate it
  124. # [18:19] <hyatt> dbaron: 40 images
  125. # [18:19] <fantasai> howcome: It's reducing use of images, CSS is good at that
  126. # [18:20] <ChrisL> I don't think this is reimplementing the whole of SVG. Its a fairly limited piece of functionality
  127. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert: ... [couldn't catch it]
  128. # [18:20] <dsinger_> Hm. Would Bert prefer an image 'codec' that is a generator?
  129. # [18:20] <fantasai> howcome: I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think gradients are that far out there
  130. # [18:20] * Quits: dsinger_ (mobile@67.218.102.132) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
  131. # [18:21] <fantasai> Bert: Next people want circles and ovals etc. Each one takes 5 minutes, but it takes a long time to learn the whole thing
  132. # [18:21] <Zakim> -bradk
  133. # [18:21] <ChrisL> It doesn't seem to be particularly complex to me
  134. # [18:21] <fantasai> ChrisL: The boat has already sailed, CSS is no longer simple. It takes a lot of effort to understand real-world style sheets
  135. # [18:22] <Zakim> +bradk
  136. # [18:22] <fantasai> ChrisL: you could do this with images or data URIs
  137. # [18:22] <fantasai> ChrisL: But the syntax gets very verbose
  138. # [18:22] <fantasai> ChrisL: So I can see the motivation for this
  139. # [18:22] <fantasai> howcome: Need vector representations for this
  140. # [18:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: And in Opera you have SVG support so you can do vector versions of complicated things
  141. # [18:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: This seems like low-hanging fruit, if you just want a simple gradient
  142. # [18:23] * dbaron notes that was bradk
  143. # [18:24] <fantasai> Brad: I think gradients are a common design element and to be able to specify one ... has a lot of merit
  144. # [18:24] * dbaron thinks bradk broke up even more the second time
  145. # [18:24] * ChrisL cannot hear brad well at all. really breaking up
  146. # [18:24] * fantasai too
  147. # [18:24] * sgalineau must not point out that gradients is probably easier to specify than, um, text-replace :)
  148. # [18:25] * ChrisL chuckles at sgalineau
  149. # [18:25] <fantasai> Hyatt: They're in the same category as shadows and rounded corners
  150. # [18:25] <fantasai> Hyatt: It's a common effect
  151. # [18:25] <fantasai> Peter: I think gradients should be usable anywhere you can use a color
  152. # [18:25] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  153. # [18:26] <fantasai> fantasai: That won't work. Colors are 0D, gradients are 2D
  154. # [18:26] <Zakim> -dsinger
  155. # [18:26] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  156. # [18:26] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  157. # [18:26] <fantasai> ChrisL: Yes, some places that don't have a geometric region, these need to have colors not gradients
  158. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: Also, e.g. 'color' is inherited
  159. # [18:27] * sgalineau can definitely see gradients used for border-image
  160. # [18:28] <fantasai> Peter: Agreed, don't need to expand it everywhere now, but will want to apply it other places e.g. text
  161. # [18:28] <fantasai> Hyatt: You can do that in webkit by specifying a clip for the text
  162. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: In Gecko you can probably do it with filters
  163. # [18:28] <Zakim> -bradk
  164. # [18:28] <dbaron> ... filters or clip-path
  165. # [18:28] <fantasai> ChrisL: ...
  166. # [18:28] <Zakim> +bradk
  167. # [18:28] <fantasai> Hyatt: That's why we want it as an image type, you can use it for many different things
  168. # [18:29] <bradk> my phone connection keeps dropping. sorry.
  169. # [18:29] <fantasai> s/.../I would be concerned if we add syntax for gradients 3 ways for 3 different use cases.. if we add it differently for backgrounds and foreground/
  170. # [18:30] <fantasai> ChrisL: Hard to use with border-image.
  171. # [18:30] <dbaron> Ah right... 'mask' was the third of those SVG properties ('clip-path', 'filter', 'mask')
  172. # [18:31] <fantasai> ChrisL: Can't say, e.g. use this gradient for the top borde,r this for the bottom, etc.
  173. # [18:31] <dbaron> ?: Also, mozilla applies 'background-repeat' to gradients in terms of repeating the gradient rather than just tiling an image.
  174. # [18:31] <fantasai> Hyatt: With gradients in CSS you can also animate them
  175. # [18:31] * sgalineau notes that one can create pretty crazy gradient patterns with canvas today and turns them into a data URI
  176. # [18:31] <fantasai> s/?/Hyatt
  177. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: The problem with that is that it's specific to backgrounds, hard to make it generic if it's not a rectangular region
  178. # [18:32] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  179. # [18:32] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL, CesarAcebal, [Apple], bradk
  180. # [18:32] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
  181. # [18:32] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  182. # [18:32] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
  183. # [18:32] <fantasai> Peter: Straw poll on adding gradients?
  184. # [18:32] <fantasai> dsinger: Would like proposers to come up with an exact proposal
  185. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: Should have a resolution on whether or not we are receptive to gradients
  186. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: That way they know the whole thing won't get thrown out because we decide its out of scope or something
  187. # [18:34] <ChrisL> +1 to add to images module. "So what exactly is a gradient in CSS? It is an image, usable anywhere that image URLs were used before. That’s right… anywhere"
  188. # [18:34] <fantasai> Sylvain: You could create gradient patterns with Canvas, turn it into a data URI. Probably how people would do it today
  189. # [18:35] <fantasai> Hyatt wants to copy language from HTML5(?)
  190. # [18:35] <fantasai> ChrisL: Can you get elliptical gradients?
  191. # [18:36] <dbaron> ChrisL, well, the non-background uses actually need to define a size better...
  192. # [18:36] <fantasai> Peter: Straw poll
  193. # [18:36] <fantasai> Sylvain: yes
  194. # [18:36] <fantasai> Arron: yes
  195. # [18:36] <fantasai> Bert: no
  196. # [18:36] <fantasai> dbaron: yes
  197. # [18:36] * bradk in favor
  198. # [18:37] <fantasai> Hyatt: in favor
  199. # [18:37] <fantasai> Brad: in favor
  200. # [18:37] <Zakim> -bradk
  201. # [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai: abstain
  202. # [18:37] <anne2> anne2: in favor
  203. # [18:37] <fantasai> howcome: We should be careful not to do too much, but I think this is one of the things we should do
  204. # [18:37] <Zakim> +bradk
  205. # [18:37] <fantasai> Chris: in favor
  206. # [18:38] <fantasai> dsinger: abstain. Think we should look at what we're doing and find the edges of where we want to go, but I think we should go forward here
  207. # [18:38] <fantasai> Peter: in favor
  208. # [18:38] * ChrisL isn't getting this to work in Safari 4.0.2/win ... should it?
  209. # [18:38] <fantasai> Peter: Only seeing one objection, so I'd say go ahead and draft a proposal
  210. # [18:38] * fantasai need webkit syntax?
  211. # [18:39] <hyatt> yes it should, but we use different syntax from mozilla
  212. # [18:39] * ChrisL stupid -foo-whatever -syntax -vendor stuff
  213. # [18:39] <hyatt> yeah :)
  214. # [18:39] * fantasai in this case they're actually quite different internally as well
  215. # [18:39] <hyatt> -zomg-dont-implement-me-yet-gradient(...)
  216. # [18:39] * ChrisL so that is a benefit to getting the syntax standardised then
  217. # [18:40] <Bert> (I want to put my H2 vertically, I want to hyphenate words, I want to rotate the F as in Finnegan's Wake, I want the OBJECT element to be as high as it s content... so many things that you need CSS for. Gradients is frivolous and thus harmful. :-( )
  218. # [18:40] <fantasai> Topic: Media Queries
  219. # [18:41] <hyatt> don't everyone talk at once... ;)
  220. # [18:41] * anne2 (the reason I cannot dial in btw is that Skype on Ubuntu sucks and I didn't take my Macbook to France)
  221. # [18:41] * ChrisL counts the number of web pages that use gradients vs the number that have rotated initial letters .....
  222. # [18:41] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jun/0536.html
  223. # [18:41] <fantasai> Bert: Original question was that Media Queries spec replaces part of the CSS2.1 grammar
  224. # [18:42] * sgalineau anne, you can be in France or have no Macbook. Both is criminal :)
  225. # [18:42] <fantasai> Bert: But the "this part" doesn't refer to something correct. Can't just replace that production
  226. # [18:42] <fantasai> Bert: one proposal I made, that Anne agrees with, is to rewrite the grammar in Appendix G of CSS2.1 so that it contains a single token that Media Queries can easily replace
  227. # [18:42] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0124.html
  228. # [18:42] <fantasai> Bert: new media_query_list token from Appendix G
  229. # [18:42] <dbaron> This proposal sounds good to me, except I wonder if it might be clearer if the CSS 2.1 production had a different name so that it wouldn't look like CSS 2.1 had media queries.
  230. # [18:43] <fantasai> Bert: That is the only thing that needs to be changed, in 2 places: Media Queries Module and CSS2.1 Appendix G
  231. # [18:43] <fantasai> Bert: Also dbaron raised another issue in response to this one
  232. # [18:43] <fantasai> Bert: Whether @media should allow no media query at all, e.g. @media { }
  233. # [18:43] <fantasai> Bert: That I don't think we should do
  234. # [18:44] <CesarAcebal> Oops, I'm afraid I had my microphone mute when I answered the pool, sorry (it's the first time I use it). ;) Anyway, my position about gradients was "abstain", since I mostly agree with Bert, but I have no a clear position about what to keep and what to get rid of.
  235. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm pretty sure we discussed this already and decided we don't want to allow @media { }
  236. # [18:44] <fantasai> Bert: In response to dbaron's comment on IRC, maybe we should have media_list instead of media_query_list
  237. # [18:45] <fantasai> Peter: So two items, one changing the grammar for this fix
  238. # [18:45] <fantasai> Peter: Any objections?
  239. # [18:45] * bradk has no opinion about the grammar change to media queries
  240. # [18:45] <fantasai> Bert: Changing to this grammar is not substantive for 2.1, btw, it just makes the grammar a little verbose but it defines exactly the same language
  241. # [18:45] <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with the change
  242. # [18:45] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept Bert's proposal to change grammar, using media_list instead of media_query_list
  243. # [18:46] <Zakim> -bradk
  244. # [18:46] <oyvinds> I remember finding the terminology "production A: B replaces C: D" slightly confusing, but with the right wording media_list probably makes more sense
  245. # [18:46] <fantasai> Peter: Second item, allowing @media { } ... fantasai says we have a previous resolution not to accept that, is everyone ok with that?
  246. # [18:46] <fantasai> ChrisL: yeah, seems good
  247. # [18:46] <Zakim> +bradk
  248. # [18:46] <fantasai> RESOLVED: @media { } invalid
  249. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: Still a question as to whether other uses of media queries make an empty media query list invalid
  250. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: Right now it defines emtpy media query list as matching everything
  251. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: So I think that's relevant for things like <link rel="stylesheet" media="">
  252. # [18:47] <fantasai> Bert: That's currently an error
  253. # [18:48] <anne2> My suggestion is to remove that from Media Queries, make it an error, and require UAs to treat media="" as media="all"
  254. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: If you combine Media Queries with HTML5 that says media attr takes media queries, that's no longer true
  255. # [18:48] <anne2> (the latter would require a change to HTML5, that Ian is willing to make)
  256. # [18:48] <dbaron> anne2, ok, that's fine with me
  257. # [18:49] <dbaron> anne2, as long as somebody tells me if there are any other cases that should have the same behavior as media="" in HTML (on link and style, I presume)
  258. # [18:49] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish updated CR draft of Media Queries with these changes
  259. # [18:49] <anne2> dbaron, <?xml-stylesheet?> and presumably <svg:style>
  260. # [18:49] <dbaron> Of course, I think I have a whole bunch of tests that depended on the other behavior...
  261. # [18:49] <fantasai> Topic: Shadow vs Layout
  262. # [18:50] <anne2> dbaron, the behavior for <style media> should not change, just conformance
  263. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: I think we have agreement that shadows not affect layout for box-shadow
  264. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: I know Hyatt wanted somem comprehensive text on overflow, but can't fit it into css3-background
  265. # [18:52] <fantasai> Hyatt: Also, should say that it applies to border-image
  266. # [18:52] <fantasai> Hyatt: Brad had an example where the border-image was used to create shadows
  267. # [18:53] <fantasai> Hyatt: Don't want scrollbars, especially horizontal scrollbars
  268. # [18:53] <fantasai> Brad: It's not just the scrollbar appearing, but also extra whitespace appearing b/c shadow is pushing out the edge of the container
  269. # [18:53] <fantasai> Hyatt: I was the only one on the list that objected to this, but I think mostly I was being a lazy implementor
  270. # [18:54] * sgalineau prefers lazy implementation
  271. # [18:54] <fantasai> ChrisL: Particularly for horizontal scrollbars, it would be fairly easy to arrange things so they fit but now you add a drop-shadow and it doesn't fit anymore
  272. # [18:54] <fantasai> fantasai: Just wanted to understand reasoning, not objecting
  273. # [18:55] <fantasai> fantasai: Are margins included in scrollable area?
  274. # [18:55] <Zakim> -bradk
  275. # [18:55] <fantasai> Hyatt: Varies from browser to browser, whether child margins are included in scrollable area
  276. # [18:55] <fantasai> Peter: Have a higher-level concern about this
  277. # [18:55] <fantasai> Peter: Agree that visual effects should never affect layout
  278. # [18:55] <fantasai> Peter: Concern is that presence or absence of scrollbar afffects layout
  279. # [18:55] <Zakim> +bradk
  280. # [18:56] <fantasai> Peter: What about scrolling mechanism that doesn't affect layout?
  281. # [18:56] <fantasai> Hyatt: Webkit has that, scrollbars that appear over content
  282. # [18:56] <Bert> (We have marquee for overflow, too.)
  283. # [18:57] <fantasai> fantasai: Discussion on www-style said that even if you already have scrollbars, don't want to be able to scroll further to be able to see these effects
  284. # [18:57] <fantasai> Peter: Don't see why not
  285. # [18:57] <Zakim> -bradk
  286. # [18:58] * sgalineau is puzzled by the need to scroll to non-content
  287. # [18:58] <bradk> my connection sucks
  288. # [18:58] <Zakim> +bradk
  289. # [18:58] <oyvinds> animating/pulsating shadows would cause the scrollbar "thumb" to animate too
  290. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai attempts to summarize the discussion on www-style
  291. # [18:59] <fantasai> fantasai: It's not about whether scrollbars appear or disappear, shadows should just be clipped
  292. # [19:01] <fantasai> fantasai: they should not increase the size of the scrollable area
  293. # [19:02] <fantasai> Peter: I think whether it increase the scrollable area should be a UA decision
  294. # [19:03] <fantasai> bradk, why is your connection so crappy?
  295. # [19:03] <fantasai> Hyatt: Want these two concepts of overflow documented in a spec
  296. # [19:03] <fantasai> fantasai: Has to be in CSS3 module, too much for 2.1
  297. # [19:04] <fantasai> e.g. css3-box
  298. # [19:05] <fantasai> Hyatt: add a sentence for border-image
  299. # [19:06] <fantasai> fantasai: I propose adding Brad Kemper as co-editor of css3-background
  300. # [19:06] <fantasai> agreed
  301. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Hakon_Lie
  302. # [19:06] <fantasai> meeting closed
  303. # [19:06] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  304. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  305. # [19:06] <Zakim> -hyatt
  306. # [19:06] <Zakim> -bradk
  307. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  308. # [19:06] <Zakim> -plinss
  309. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Bert
  310. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  311. # [19:06] <Zakim> -fantasai
  312. # [19:06] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  313. # [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  314. # [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were bradk, plinss, dsinger, Bert, dbaron, sylvaing, arronei, hyatt, Hakon_Lie, fantasai, ChrisL, CesarAcebal
  315. # [19:07] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@193.51.208.72) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
  316. # [19:08] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Connection reset by peer)
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  319. # [19:11] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
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  321. # [19:38] <dbaron> anne2, so if empty media lists are supposed to be valid for every known use of media queries except @media... maybe @media should be the one where the spec makes an exception, rather than making exceptions for all the others?
  322. # [19:39] <anne2> the idea was to make them invalid (like in HTML4) but require UAs to treat them as all because of compat
  323. # [19:40] <anne2> I don't feel strongly either way
  324. # [19:41] <dbaron> ah, ok
  325. # [19:42] <dbaron> well, code-wise, I might make the @media case the exception
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  353. # Session Close: Thu Aug 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)