/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-08-19 / end

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# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:54] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-CSS-irc
# [17:55] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
# [17:55] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
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# [18:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:03] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:03] <sylvaing> Zakim, Microsoft has sylvaing
# [18:03] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
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# [18:08] <Zakim> +Bert
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# [18:10] <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
# [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], bradk, CesarAcebal, ??P9, Bert, ChrisL
# [18:10] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
# [18:10] <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, bradk, oyvinds, RRSAgent, Zakim, sylvaing, shepazu, dbaron, Lachy, anne2, karl, CesarAcebal, Hixie, krijnh, plinss, fantasai, Bert, trackbot
# [18:11] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
# [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
# [18:12] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
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# [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P18 is howcome
# [18:12] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
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# [18:15] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
# [18:15] <Zakim> +hyatt
# [18:15] <fantasai> Bert: I'd like to add Cesar as co-editor of Template module
# [18:16] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Cesar accepted as co-editor of Template module
# [18:16] <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
# [18:16] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
# [18:16] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:16] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0025.html
# [18:17] <fantasai> Issue 128
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: I've looked at this when working on the Box module, and did write that section more carefully there
# [18:17] <Bert> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/css3-box/Overview.html#run-in-boxes
# [18:17] <fantasai> Bert: We're talking about block level with exceptions, e.g. block-level but not floating
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: For issue 2, I think 'follows' is defined, but is not defined in the way we need... in Chapter 3 elements and following elements are defined
# [18:18] <fantasai> Bert: But here we need "immediately following". So that's a bug in the definition
# [18:18] <ChrisL> +1 to 'immediately following'
# [18:19] <fantasai> ACTION: Bert Come up with exact wording for CSS2.1 Issue 128
# [18:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:19] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-172 - Come up with exact wording for CSS2.1 Issue 128 [on Bert Bos - due 2009-08-26].
# [18:20] <fantasai> ChrisL: The last part is, I think, talking about tree order rather than rendering order (in any case this needs clarification)
# [18:20] <fantasai> ChrisL: "first child" would be more precise than "starts with"
# [18:21] <fantasai> Peter: You said you have clarifications that address the first issue, but he's pointing out different behavior in different browsers.
# [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai thinks Bert should come up with a proposal and then we can talk about it
# [18:22] <fantasai> Hyatt: I would prefer Boris's suggestion
# [18:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: That means IE has to change
# [18:24] <fantasai> Issue 115 (?)
# [18:24] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0282.html
# [18:24] <fantasai> dbaron: I think fantasai's text has a serious bug in it in that it says every element has clear even if it's not next to floats
# [18:25] <fantasai> dbaron: I sent a message to the list a week ago, but it wasn't clear so I sent another one just now
# [18:25] <dbaron> s/says every element has clear/says every element with 'clear' inhibits margin collapsing/
# [18:25] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0386.html
# [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think there's an issue here
# [18:29] <fantasai> s/I don't think/I'm not sure/
# [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: There is, there are cases where you need clearance to be zero and still be clearance.
# [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: Anton pointed out that the spec in some places assumes zero clearance is no clearance
# [18:30] <fantasai> ACTION: dbaron figure out what he wants to do about this
# [18:30] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:30] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:30] <trackbot> Created ACTION-173 - Figure out what he wants to do about this [on David Baron - due 2009-08-26].
# [18:31] <fantasai> Topic: Border-image/box-shadow
# [18:32] <fantasai> ChrisL: Last time we discussed I present a proposal
# [18:32] <fantasai> ChrisL: It was rejected, and there was discussion of a border-shadow proposal
# [18:33] <fantasai> ChrisL: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0176.html
# [18:33] <fantasai> s/ChrisL: //
# [18:37] <fantasai> ChrisL: But I don't understand what happened sicne then
# [18:37] <fantasai> fantasai points Chris to the minutes
# [18:40] <Zakim> -howcome
# [18:42] <ChrisL> s/rejected/rejected on two grounds, desire for a real box shaddow and the assertion that shadows could be precomputed/
# [18:42] <fantasai> People repeat their objections to various issues within this issue, and fantasai tells everybody to go read her email and post a reply if they object to her argument there
# [18:43] <fantasai> People discuss issues
# [18:43] <fantasai> fantasai fails to minute them.
# [18:44] <fantasai> Brad: If we're going to have an alpha-based shadow in the future, that should be a separate thing from box-shadow which doesn't follow the shape of the dashes
# [18:44] <fantasai> ChrisL: I understand that point, but I think people are going to be surprised when box-shadow doesn't follow the shape of the border image
# [18:44] <fantasai> ChrisL: You could specify it that way, but it's not very satisfactory
# [18:45] <fantasai> Hyatt: I would prefer if we came up with a resolution that used border-image
# [18:45] <fantasai> Hyatt: People use it in a way that visually alters the shape of the box
# [18:45] <fantasai> ChrisL: And if you curve the corners, it follows the curve
# [18:46] <fantasai> ChrisL: People will expect it to work for border-image, too
# [18:47] <fantasai> Hyatt: I think either we should follow the border-image, or suppress the shadow
# [18:47] <fantasai> Hyatt: Making a box shape doesn't make sense
# [18:47] <fantasai> Brad: Why don't we shadow everything?
# [18:47] <fantasai> Hyatt: We have that, it's a separate feature
# [18:47] * fantasai is so annoyed that we're just repeating ourselves from last time and she has to type it all
# [18:47] <fantasai> Hyatt: ... SVG shadows
# [18:48] <fantasai> ChrisL: That's how I implemented these
# [18:48] <fantasai> Brad: Once we have SVG shadows, then anything we do for border-image just becomes redundant
# [18:48] * ChrisL #include unminuted discussion from last time.h
# [18:48] <fantasai> Hyatt: For box-shadow, my concern is what the author expects.
# [18:49] * dbaron thinks <time.h> is pretty ugly
# [18:49] <fantasai> Hyatt: I think there's really only two options: either shadow the border-image or suppress it
# [18:49] * shepazu who knows what evil lurks in the heart of SVG shadows? Only... the Hyatt knows!
# [18:49] <fantasai> Hyatt: I don't see what the problem is with doing shadows on border-image
# [18:49] * ChrisL thought that %20s would be even uglier
# [18:49] <fantasai> Hyatt: Is it just that we can't come to agreement on how it works?
# [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: not that's not the problem
# [18:50] <fantasai> Brad: We could add switches to controll what the shadow gets applied to
# [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: we can add switches later
# [18:50] <fantasai> Hyatt: If you really want a separate border-shadow then we can add that and copy the box-shadow syntax
# [18:52] <fantasai> ...
# [18:53] <fantasai> Hyatt: If we have a box-shadow, then it tries to do this filled shadow effect where it's drawn outside the box
# [18:53] <fantasai> Hyatt: A border-shadow effect would shadow whatever's drawn for the border
# [18:53] <fantasai> Peter: Does border-shadow really change the shape of the box?
# [18:53] <fantasai> Hyatt: People expect it to
# [18:53] <fantasai> Hyatt: It looks like they change the shape of the box, but it's kinda fake
# [18:56] <fantasai> Bert: I don't want to have a non-continuous border change the shape of the box. I still want the box to be rectangular.
# [18:57] <fantasai> Hyatt: Most of our use of border-image is to round things
# [18:58] <fantasai> Brad: I think using border-image for interesting dotted patterns will be as interesting as using it for changing the shape of the box
# [18:58] <fantasai> Hyatt: It's going to be used for a lot of things. Any case where the built-in borders aren't good enough
# [18:58] <fantasai> ChrisL: So you're saying people want this ... ?
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# [18:59] <ChrisL> s/this/this immediately/
# [18:59] <fantasai> Hyatt: Feature requests we've gotten: 1. do border-shadow, which is just a property like box-shadow and text-shadow that would exactly shadow the border drawing
# [19:00] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:00] <fantasai> Hyatt: 2. A full-blown shadow property, that would shadow everything drawn inside the element
# [19:00] <Zakim> +bradk
# [19:00] <fantasai> Hyatt: 3. Wanting to shadow pieces of SVG.
# [19:00] <fantasai> ChrisL: You can do that already with the filter property
# [19:00] <fantasai> ChrisL: The latest draft is adding some syntactic sugar for common effects
# [19:00] <fantasai> ChrisL: I believe that's already implemented in WebKit, actually
# [19:03] <fantasai> ChrisL: If we go ahead and do a border-shadow property, then I'd like the box-shadow property to be only affected by the box, not by the border-image
# [19:03] <fantasai> ChrisL: You'll only get a rectangular shadow
# [19:03] <fantasai> ChrisL: It's not what people want. It's just clear and simple.
# [19:04] <fantasai> Hyatt: The argument for suppressing the box-shadow instead of just drawing a rectangle
# [19:04] <fantasai> Hyatt: Is that if the image don't load you show the border with a shadow
# [19:04] <fantasai> Hyatt: I'm fine with just rendering the rectangular shadow
# [19:04] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:04] <fantasai> Hyatt: I think that's what we currently do
# [19:05] * dbaron didn't hear any beeps
# [19:06] <fantasai> Hyatt: I think it's an important point that border-image doesn't change the shape of the box
# [19:06] * bradk lost the phone connection and can't reconnect
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# [19:08] <bradk> is the call over?
# [19:08] <Bert> No, not quite
# [19:08] <Bert> (But you're right that it's the top of the hour...)
# [19:10] <bradk> "the conference is restricted at this time", so I can't rejoin the call, and I'm missing whatever else is being discussed.
# [19:10] <fantasai> Peter: we're over our time, still no conclusion
# [19:10] <fantasai> Peter: let's pick this up again next week
# [19:10] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:10] <Zakim> -hyatt
# [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:10] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
# [19:10] <Bert> We're just repeating, to be as clearas possible. No conclusions...
# [19:10] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:10] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
# [19:10] <Zakim> -??P9
# [19:10] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:10] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:10] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, sylvaing, bradk, CesarAcebal, Bert, ChrisL, dbaron, howcome, hyatt, arronei
# [19:10] <bradk> OK, thanks
# [19:10] <fantasai> yes, just repeating ourselves over and over and over and over and over
# [19:11] * hyatt is not really even sure what we're arguing about at this point
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# [19:11] <hyatt> in the case of border-image i guess i'm just fine with everything, which isn't helpful for coming to a conclusion :)
# [19:11] <fantasai> heh
# [19:11] <hyatt> i could suppress, draw a normal shadow, or draw a fancy shadow
# [19:11] <hyatt> don't really care
# [19:12] <fantasai> Perhaps we should assign some homework. Everybody go read my message, brad's response, and the minutes, and write one paragraph about what you think
# [19:12] <fantasai> Most people weren't talking
# [19:12] <bradk> If we think we can quickly create alpha-based drop shadows, and either restrict them to borders or not, then why don't we just do that, and have THAT suppress box-shadow?
# [19:12] <fantasai> ?
# [19:13] <bradk> As a separate property, I mean.
# [19:13] <fantasai> bradk: you mean, if 'border-shadow' is in effect, 'box-shadow' gets suppressed?
# [19:14] <bradk> Yes.
# [19:14] <fantasai> bradk: why is that useful?
# [19:15] <bradk> It seems like that would be coming in the future anyway. Then, if some want to suppress box-shadow when there is border-image, they can just create a border-shadow with a .0001& opacity.
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# [19:16] <fantasai> bradk: that would suppress even when there wasn't a border-image
# [19:17] <bradk> or maybe instead of border-shadow, it is "drop-shadow: <box-shadow-properties>, border-only;"
# [19:17] <bradk> Hmm. Oh, yeah.
# [19:17] <fantasai> bradk: or maybe we can just add keywords to box-shadow later
# [19:17] <sylvaing> seconds that, fwiw
# [19:17] <fantasai> bradk: or that, yeah
# [19:18] <sylvaing> i.e. adding kw to box-shadow
# [19:18] <hyatt> i don't know how roc feels, but for me doing something great for border-image and box-shadow was just in the category of "well this might be cool"
# [19:18] <hyatt> i don't really feel strongly about it
# [19:18] <fantasai> hyatt: probably the same
# [19:18] <bradk> drop-shadow suppresses border-shadow, which suppresses box-shadow?
# [19:18] <fantasai> no, that would be so confusing
# [19:18] <fantasai> heh
# [19:18] <hyatt> at the top of webkit's paintBoxShadow method long ago i put:
# [19:18] <hyatt> "FIXME: Deal with border-image. Would be great to use border-image as a mask."
# [19:19] <hyatt> and that's the extent of it :)
# [19:19] <fantasai> bradk: sorry, I misinterpreted what you typed
# [19:19] <fantasai> bradk: if we're adding keywords then I think we should just do that to box-shadow itself
# [19:19] <fantasai> bradk: and we can do that later, we don't have to do it now
# [19:20] <fantasai> hyatt: I think it's a good idea. I'd only want to suppress the shadows if it turns out to be difficult implementation-wise
# [19:20] <fantasai> hyatt: and since you and roc don't think so, that's not a concern right now
# [19:20] <bradk> "box-shadow: <box-shadow-properties>, supress-if-there-is-a-border-image;"?
# [19:21] <fantasai> bradk: how about
# [19:21] <fantasai> border-image: ... shadowed image ...;
# [19:21] <fantasai> box-shadow: none;
# [19:21] <hyatt> fantasai: opaque padding box unioned with border-image shape and drawn as a mask
# [19:21] <fantasai> @media (images-disabled) {
# [19:21] <hyatt> will look good in some circumstances but really lousy in many others
# [19:21] <fantasai> box-shadow: something;
# [19:21] <fantasai> }
# [19:22] <hyatt> like the diamond pattern in bert's original draft for example
# [19:22] <fantasai> hyatt: and shadows drawin in the image will look good in some circumstances but really lousy in many others
# [19:22] <hyatt> you'd have these little holes in between the right interior edges of the diamonds and the padding box
# [19:22] <hyatt> in the shadow
# [19:22] <hyatt> fantasai: true
# [19:22] <fantasai> hyatt: the diamond pattern in Bert's original example draft would work if you filled in the area between the diamonds and the padding edge
# [19:22] <fantasai> hyatt: it would /not/ work if you had to draw the shadows inside the image
# [19:23] <fantasai> hyatt: they'd get sliced up wrong
# [19:23] <hyatt> fantasai: right... so would need an algorithm that could specify that the space between the diamonds and padding edge gets filled
# [19:23] <fantasai> hyatt: feel free to try it :) bradk too
# [19:23] <bradk> I'd be OK with @media(no-images), I think.
# [19:23] <fantasai> hyatt: that's edge detection
# [19:23] <hyatt> i'm not quite sure how to specify that
# [19:23] <fantasai> hyatt: that's not something we really want to get into imo
# [19:23] <hyatt> yeah having to grovel around to build an actual shape
# [19:23] <hyatt> would yield the best results
# [19:23] <hyatt> but is also hard
# [19:24] <fantasai> bradk: I think that'll cover a lot more ground than trying to work fallback into border-image+box-shadow
# [19:24] <bradk> Would it work if images were supported but not yet loaded?
# [19:25] <fantasai> bradk: hmmm, that's a tough one. probably not
# [19:25] <fantasai> bradk: for that you need media queries on a per-element basis
# [19:25] <fantasai> bradk: which we don't have, obviously
# [19:26] <bradk> OK, got to go. Bye!
# [19:26] <fantasai> bye!
# [19:27] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.101.85) (Quit: leaving)
# [19:29] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
# [19:32] * fantasai wonders when glazou is getting back
# [19:43] * sylvaing suggests this is TPAC f2f material
# [19:45] * Quits: oyvinds (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvinds)
# [19:46] <fantasai> sylvaing: that or a discussion for when glazou gets back
# [19:47] <sylvaing> fantasai: not sure I follow the glazou dependency :)
# [19:47] <fantasai> he's sometimes able to sort out messy discussions like this :)
# [19:47] <fantasai> I would like to go for last call before the TPAC
# [19:47] <sylvaing> granted. he does drive with a firmer hand.
# [19:48] <fantasai> TPAC is a long ways away, and I want this spec done by the end of the year
# [19:48] <Bert> Fun: let's bring crayons and water colors to the ftf and draw borders! :-)
# [19:48] <fantasai> Yay!
# [19:48] <sylvaing> that'd be totally approved
# [19:48] <fantasai> if we finish borders discussion, we can draw gradients instead :P
# [19:49] <sylvaing> that was another one I was going to suggest for TPAC
# [19:49] * fantasai wonders if we can get Tab there too
# [19:49] <fantasai> he's effectively editing the spec, we should make him co-editor for css3-images :)
# [19:49] <sylvaing> we should !
# [19:49] <fantasai> Bert: how goes the administrivia?
# [19:49] <sylvaing> tab got his email
# [19:49] <fantasai> cool
# [19:50] <sylvaing> he was all happy about this this morning on #whatwg. minutes before the conf call in fact
# [19:50] <Bert> He filled the form, it's now under review by Mauro.
# [19:50] <sylvaing> excellent
# [19:50] <Bert> He is already IE for HTML, so I don't see what Mauro can find against him. Nothing changed in Tab's situation since then.
# [19:51] <sylvaing> didn't know he was IE for HTML
# [19:51] <Bert> Which means that probably early next week he can officially join.
# [19:51] <sylvaing> but given the quality of his participation there, that certainly makes sense
# [19:51] * sylvaing will be invited too....someday....
# [19:52] <fantasai> sylvaing: HTML's IE status is different, it is self-invited
# [19:52] * sylvaing goes hixie and forecasts 2022...
# [19:52] <fantasai> sylvaing: you don't qualify, though, because you work for MSFT :P
# [19:53] <sylvaing> I won't always...
# [19:53] <sylvaing> or am i tainted for life ?
# [19:53] <Bert> I prefer that join as rep of a big company, though. I need the fees to be able to travel again :-)
# [19:53] <fantasai> lol
# [19:54] <sylvaing> you need to get the fantasai travel guide !
# [19:54] <fantasai> "W3C Travel on a Student Budget"
# [19:54] <fantasai> :P
# [19:56] <fantasai> sylvaing: you can be an IE if you're not working for a W3C-eligible company
# [19:57] <sylvaing> when i grow up then
# [19:57] <hyatt> fantasai: roc is on vacation, so i haven't made any progress on gradients
# [19:57] <hyatt> fantasai: the discussion on them has been crazy
# [19:57] <fantasai> hyatt: yeah
# [19:57] <hyatt> i can't keep up with it
# [19:58] <fantasai> hyatt: Tab's doing most of the work for you
# [19:58] <fantasai> hyatt: he's effectively editing a spec on it as he goes through the discussions
# [19:58] <fantasai> hyatt: so you and roc can basically just review the spec once it stabilizes
# [19:58] <fantasai> hyatt: mostly it's syntax discussions
# [19:59] <sylvaing> yeah tab is doing good work there
# [19:59] <sylvaing> between Brad's border image stuff and Tab's gradient work, we've been lucky lately.
# [20:00] <fantasai> yeah :) good stuff
# [20:00] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [20:02] * fantasai pulls the IRC logs so she can make minutes
# [20:02] <fantasai> I need to be more patient.
# [20:02] <Bert> Not so sure about that. I would prefer we spent the energy on vertical text, hyphenation, centering (esp. horizontal, but vertical is also important), tabs/leaders, footnotes, intrinsic heights and a few other things that really ought to have been working long ago...
# [20:03] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [20:03] <fantasai> Bert: Those are much harder topics.
# [20:04] <sylvaing> well, bert, as someone who works on a browser that doesn't do rounded corners, border images, shadows, gradients and the like, i can tell you i can't argue with the priorities :)
# [20:04] <Bert> No doubt, but any other typsettting system can do them, while the Web still can't :-(
# [20:04] <sylvaing> and yes, definitely harder too.
# [20:05] <fantasai> Bert: if we had as many people who understood intrinsic sizes as gradients...
# [20:05] <fantasai> Bert: I think it's mainly just you and dbaron (and probably someone from the IE team, though I don't know who)
# [20:05] <sylvaing> and that someone sure isn't me...
# [20:06] <sylvaing> but there is someone here who is very good with that
# [20:06] <fantasai> Bert: howcome has a proposal for leaders, should be extensible to tabs, no?
# [20:06] <fantasai> Bert: and his footnotes proposal is quite good imho
# [20:07] <Bert> I think we abandoned general tabs in favour of Håkon's simplified proposal. That's OK, it can do most things and the rest will have to be faked with floats again. The problem is that even the simplified stuff isn't progressing :-(
# [20:08] <fantasai> Bert: It's not progressing in browsers
# [20:08] <fantasai> Bert: which is why it doesn't get talked about much here
# [20:08] <fantasai> Bert: the companies that are working on it are YesLogic and AntennaHouse
# [20:09] <fantasai> Bert: neither of which sends reps
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# [20:11] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
# [20:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
# [20:11] <sylvaing> mmmm...css3 values and units says angles are for aural stylesheets ?
# [20:12] <fantasai> that's an error
# [20:12] <annevk> ooh, my apologies, I was out for food with my dad
# [20:12] <fantasai> it was reported awhile ago
# [20:12] <fantasai> annevk: you didn't miss much
# [20:12] <fantasai> annevk: just a rehash of the border-image box-shadow arguments
# [20:12] <annevk> I see, hope you guys had fun with that :)
# [20:12] <annevk> (and girl ;) )
# [20:12] <sylvaing> annevk: fantasai was fierce :)
# [20:12] * fantasai has no patience for this kind of discussion
# [20:12] <fantasai> it's not good
# [20:12] <fantasai> should be more patient
# [20:12] <fantasai> grr
# [20:13] <fantasai> annevk: I consider "you guys" to be gender-neutral
# [20:13] <sylvaing> well, i appreciated it because it clarified a bunch of things for me. but i can totally see how others would see it as a waste of time
# [20:13] <fantasai> annevk: so you're good :)
# [20:13] <Bert> Angles are to specify the elevation of the sound source above the horizon
# [20:13] <fantasai> yes, but they're used for more than that in css3
# [20:13] <annevk> :)
# [20:14] <Bert> So yes, they caome from aural style sheets origianlly.
# [20:14] * fantasai has used "you guys" to refer to an all-girls bunch of people, even ^^;;
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# [20:27] <sylvaing> Bert: thanks !
# [20:28] <Bert> Sylvain, for what?
# [20:43] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# Session Close: Thu Aug 20 00:00:00 2009

The end :)