/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-09-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 02 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Now, second, I have no idea. text inputs are replaced, and I don't know of any way to get them to size themselves to the line-box. If the label and submit were known-width you could use calc() and margin, but I'm not sure if FF3 does calc() yet.
  4. # [00:01] <Curt`> i've tried that, it ignores my width if i use width: calc(100%-100px);
  5. # [00:01] <Curt`> (yes, the submit and text are fixed widths)
  6. # [00:02] <Curt`> hm well i guess i could do position: fixed; left: # right: #; that might work
  7. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Hmm, yeah.
  8. # [00:03] <Curt`> i'll just fix everything (they are all static locations, even while scrolling)
  9. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Ah, then yeah that'll work.
  10. # [00:03] <Curt`> except for the dynamic widthed text unput
  11. # [00:06] <Curt`> ar i can't belive it didn't work
  12. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> For serious?
  13. # [00:06] <Curt`> hte text input's left and top positions work
  14. # [00:06] <Curt`> but doing right: 25px; seemed to do nothing
  15. # [00:07] <Curt`> mayb a different.. position: fixed; i'll see what eles there is
  16. # [00:09] <Curt`> hm still no results :(
  17. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Man, I thought for sure that specifying left and right together was supposed to imply the width.
  18. # [00:10] <Curt`> yeah me to :(
  19. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> javascript it is, I guess.
  20. # [00:11] <Curt`> I can't wait until I can use calc - i wanted to use it years ago when I first started messign with CSS w/ HTML
  21. # [00:11] <Curt`> (b4 i even knew about w3c :P)
  22. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Heh, me too.
  23. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Curt, another option: margin on the container, width:100% on the input, abspos the other two into position.
  24. # [00:15] <Curt`> ah good thinking, i'll try that
  25. # [00:22] <Curt`> ty much, got it working now
  26. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> cool
  27. # [00:25] <Curt`> Can I remove my submit button from sending a get thingy
  28. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, make your form do POST instead.
  29. # [00:25] <Curt`> but i want my page to be get so if needed, its bookmarkable
  30. # [00:26] <Curt`> (i mean the text box)
  31. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Do you just want the *submit* to not show up in the GET?
  32. # [00:26] <Curt`> yes.
  33. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> If so, just don't give it a name.
  34. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> no-name form elements aren't successful, and won't be included in the submitted data.
  35. # [00:27] <Curt`> how do i make it so i can use more than one set of []s?
  36. # [00:28] <Curt`> (before i was doing input[name=go]
  37. # [00:28] <Curt`> nevermind i'll just do type=submit
  38. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Hrm? You just include more than one set of [], just like you'd do with multiple classes or something.
  39. # [00:29] <Curt`> okay
  40. # [00:31] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  41. # [00:31] <Curt`> u said same applies for multiple classes? a.foo.bar <a class="abc foo hehe bar">test</a> for instance
  42. # [00:31] <Curt`> (i've never done that before, good to know, ty)
  43. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> No problem.
  44. # [00:32] <Curt`> so.. if i wanted a combo of classes and ids, i'd do.. a#foo.bar or a.bar#foo?
  45. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Doesn't matter.
  46. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Order is *completely* unimportant, except that the element name has to come first if it's being used (maybe - it's possible that *some* things could precede it, I dunno).
  47. # [00:34] <Curt`> okay ty
  48. # [00:48] * Curt` is now known as Curt`|food
  49. # [00:51] * fantasai notes that this discussion is kinda off-topic for this channel
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  53. # [02:02] * Curt`|food is now known as Curt`|busy
  54. # [02:03] <Curt`|busy> yeha i asked b4 saying anything kuz i wasn't sure :P but it seems people tend to not answer me in the actual css channel on another server w/ most of my questions - i actually got HELP help here :D
  55. # [02:17] <fantasai> I think that's mostly a side-effect of it being low traffic
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  83. # [17:42] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  84. # [17:42] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  85. # [17:42] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-CSS-irc
  86. # [17:42] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  87. # [17:42] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
  88. # [17:42] <glazou> rrsagent make logs public
  89. # [17:43] <glazou> RRSAgent, make log public
  90. # [17:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  91. # [17:52] * fantasai waves to glazou
  92. # [17:52] <fantasai> Welcome back!
  93. # [17:52] <glazou> thanks fantasai
  94. # [17:57] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.19.82)
  95. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  96. # [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.281.712.aaaa
  97. # [17:59] * TabAtkins can't remembeer how to tell Zakim that that's me.
  98. # [18:00] <fantasai> Zakim, +1.281 is TabAtkins
  99. # [18:00] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  100. # [18:01] * MikeSmith to TabAtkins - I think you can do whatever unique substring... so "Zakim, aaaa is me" would work too. maybe
  101. # [18:01] * fantasai changes topic to 'CSS Working Group discussion'
  102. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Daniel_Glazman
  103. # [18:02] <Zakim> -Daniel_Glazman
  104. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Daniel_Glazman
  105. # [18:02] * Joins: oyvinds (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
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  107. # [18:04] <Zakim> +bradk
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  109. # [18:05] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.176.161)
  110. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
  111. # [18:06] <sylvaing> Zakim, +1.206.324 is sylvaing
  112. # [18:06] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  113. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aacc
  114. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, +34.60.940 is CesarAcebal
  115. # [18:07] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  116. # [18:07] * ChrisL zakim, code?
  117. # [18:07] * Zakim saw 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152) given for the conference code, ChrisL
  118. # [18:07] <glazou> hi ChrisL
  119. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Bert
  120. # [18:07] * ChrisL gets 78953 to be 'this passcode is not valid', sigh
  121. # [18:07] <ChrisL> hi glazou
  122. # [18:07] <glazou> ChrisL: appends to me often too with VoIP
  123. # [18:08] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  124. # [18:08] * ChrisL works now
  125. # [18:09] * sylvaing has to wait for the end of the spoken message to get through using his VoIP phone
  126. # [18:09] <glazou> sylvaing: I'll try that next time
  127. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Steve
  128. # [18:11] <fantasai> Zakim, Steve is fantasai
  129. # [18:11] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  130. # [18:12] * sylvaing speaking of boxes and diagrams, second Gerard Talbot's comment that the inline formatting model could use visual back-up
  131. # [18:12] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  132. # [18:12] <glazou> Steve is fantasai ?-)
  133. # [18:12] <sylvaing> glazou: sounds like Mozilla's implementation of transitions is pretty aggressive....
  134. # [18:12] <fantasai> who's minuting?
  135. # [18:12] <glazou> sylvaing: define aggressive ?-)
  136. # [18:13] <glazou> fantasai: that's outside of the call
  137. # [18:13] * ChrisL Bert: I don't want to have a non-continuous border change the shape of the
  138. # [18:13] <ChrisL> box. I still want the box to be rectangular.
  139. # [18:13] <glazou> we did not start yet
  140. # [18:13] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@71.202.66.40)
  141. # [18:13] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  142. # [18:13] * Quits: myakura (myakura@114.163.207.14) (Quit: Leaving...)
  143. # [18:14] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  144. # [18:14] <fantasai> Glazou: I'm back from summer break, not quite caught up with everything
  145. # [18:14] <fantasai> Glazou: Extra agenda item from Chris
  146. # [18:14] <fantasai> ChrisL: It's already in the Agenda
  147. # [18:14] <fantasai> s/Glazou/Daniel/
  148. # [18:14] <fantasai> s/Glazou/Daniel/
  149. # [18:15] <fantasai> Topic: box-shadow and border-image
  150. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: ...
  151. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: You know the diagram with the border and padding edge etc?
  152. # [18:15] <fantasai> ChrisL: Imagine a similar diagram with the corners rounded
  153. # [18:16] <fantasai> ChrisL: I asked which diagram we use (?)
  154. # [18:16] <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/images/boxdim.png
  155. # [18:16] <fantasai> ChrisL: Bert said the boxes should be rectangular
  156. # [18:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: but you have a different clipping effect
  157. # [18:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: I also asked if the border-image affects the geometric layout of these boxes
  158. # [18:17] <fantasai> ChrisL: And I was told no, it doesn't
  159. # [18:18] <Zakim> +Hakon_Lie
  160. # [18:20] <fantasai> ...
  161. # [18:20] <fantasai> Brad: So the question is, when is the border-radius applied and when is it not
  162. # [18:20] <fantasai> fantasai: The border-radius is applied to the definition of the boxes for rendering effects, but not for layout
  163. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai: for layout you only care about the edges, not the shape of the corners
  164. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/curved-corner-image.html
  165. # [18:22] <fantasai> ChrisL: So there's no way to prevent text from leaking other than providing sufficient padding
  166. # [18:22] <fantasai> fantasai: right
  167. # [18:22] <sylvaing> CSS2 borders clip at the inner border edge; Brad's example clipped at the outer border edge
  168. # [18:22] <fantasai> ChrisL: was the rendering that Brad showed per spec or an implementation bug?
  169. # [18:23] <fantasai> fantasai: Implementation bug. The spec says to follow the curve for clipping effects, jumping from one curve to the other isn't a reasonable interpretation
  170. # [18:23] <fantasai> ChrisL: fantasai's suggesting this particular unioning algorithm
  171. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: I think it'll look a little odd. I can produce images that look good, and some that look bad with it
  172. # [18:24] <fantasai> ChrisL: You don't need to do edge detection
  173. # [18:25] <fantasai> ChrisL: As you rightly pointed out, spread is a complicated operation and if you have a raster image it's out of the question
  174. # [18:25] <fantasai> ChrisL: blur radius is fine, but spread basically moves the geometry out and that's difficult to do without actual geometry
  175. # [18:26] <fantasai> Brad: I disagree with the notion of doing alpha channel for box channel without taking into account border styles or backgrounds
  176. # [18:26] <fantasai> Brad: I don't see why border-image should have a special alpha-based channel behavior
  177. # [18:26] <fantasai> Brad: I'd rather see a proper drop-shadow effect rather than this half-effort for border-image
  178. # [18:27] <fantasai> ChrisL: It's hard to address pieces of the border image otherwise
  179. # [18:27] <fantasai> Brad: If we had a drop-shadow property, it could have a switch on it that says what it affects: borders, border-images, everything, etc.
  180. # [18:27] <fantasai> Brad: So far box-shadow only takes into account the border box
  181. # [18:28] <fantasai> ChrisL: it does take into account border-radius
  182. # [18:28] <fantasai> Brad: Still limited to flat edges and possibly curved corners
  183. # [18:28] <fantasai> Brad: If you have a dashed border going around the curve
  184. # [18:28] <fantasai> Brad: It's going to be a flat border until you put a border image
  185. # [18:28] * TabAtkins or hell, just an identical border-image of a dashed border.
  186. # [18:29] <fantasai> Brad: You'd get a different effect if you had a border-image shashed border vs a UA-defined dashed border
  187. # [18:29] <ChrisL> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Alladins_Lamp.png
  188. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Two things come to mind from this discussion
  189. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: One is, we could use the background-clip on the bottommost background layer to determine whether the dashes fall inside the box-shadow's auto-opaque area or outside it
  190. # [18:33] <fantasai> fantasai: box-shadow is supposed to represent clipping the box out and pulling it forward of the canvas
  191. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: if you filled it with background paint, then it's obvious that in the default case (background-clip: border-box) your box would be rectangular even in the case of dashed borders
  192. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: but if you set background-clip: padding-box, the dashes are outside the background paint region
  193. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: and if you were clipping out the box, you'd clip around the dashes, leaving gaps in between
  194. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: the other thought was, Brad mentioned perhaps never alpha-channel-masking the border area
  195. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: and if the author needed alpha-channel masking, it would only apply to regions of the border-image outset beyond the border-box
  196. # [18:36] <fantasai> TJ: If we're trying to be intelligent about alpha, we can't just pay attention to the bottommost background unless we say background is automatically opaque
  197. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: we're saying that the background is automatically opaque
  198. # [18:37] <fantasai> Brad: The box shape that you're shadowing, it's not really paying attention to the alpha of the box it's just pretending it's opaque
  199. # [18:38] <fantasai> ...
  200. # [18:39] <fantasai> Brad things authors will want more controls over what is drop-shadowed
  201. # [18:41] <fantasai> fantasai: we can always add more controls later, and this would just be the default behavior
  202. # [18:41] <fantasai> s/TJ/Tab/
  203. # [18:41] <fantasai> Tab: Maye be don't need to make this behavior that intelligent then
  204. # [18:42] <fantasai> ChrisL: I was agreeing with fantasai, but now I see both designers not happy
  205. # [18:42] <fantasai> ChrisL: If we make it less intelligent, then you always get a rectangle
  206. # [18:43] <fantasai> Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, because of your argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it
  207. # [18:47] <Bert> (Maybe we can define shaped boxes some day, which shape the content box and hence the text, rather than just the border...)
  208. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: How about you take an action item to draw up a proposal for what kind of controls we want in the future
  209. # [18:47] <fantasai> fantasai: so that we know whether box-shadow conflicts with that or adds to it
  210. # [18:47] <fantasai> SteveZ: Two comments. First, this is hard to follow without pictures
  211. # [18:47] <ChrisL> I'm happy to make diagrams, once we decide what to make a diagram *of*
  212. # [18:50] * TabAtkins hack possibility: <div style=width:0 margin:20px border-image:foo><div style=margin:-20px /></div>
  213. # [18:51] <glazou> did I hear howcome on the call ?
  214. # [18:52] <glazou> who said "'I support Bert" ?
  215. # [18:52] <fantasai> SteveZ: Second, what I'm hearing is that Tab and Brad want to shine a light throught the box, and take the shadow from that, and having part of the border-image take part in that and part of it not
  216. # [18:53] * sylvaing glazou, you make it sound like an outrageous thing to say :)
  217. # [18:53] <fantasai> Brad: I like the idea of using backgrond-clip to determine which box gets shadowed
  218. # [18:53] * ChrisL but it is!!!
  219. # [18:53] <fantasai> Bert, Hakon: I think it makes it all too complicated
  220. # [18:53] * ChrisL :)
  221. # [18:54] <fantasai> ACTION: Brad to come up with full shadow proposal (not finalized, but to see where we're going)
  222. # [18:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  223. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 1
  224. # [18:54] <trackbot> Created ACTION-174 - Come up with full shadow proposal (not finalized, but to see where we're going) [on Brad Kemper - due 2009-09-09].
  225. # [18:54] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai draw up proposal for box-shadow modified by ideas posted here
  226. # [18:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  227. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 2
  228. # [18:54] <trackbot> Created ACTION-175 - Draw up proposal for box-shadow modified by ideas posted here [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-09-09].
  229. # [18:55] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Republish Media Queries and CSS 2.1 after Bert adds media_list grammar rule
  230. # [18:56] <fantasai> discussion of process requirements for republishing CRs
  231. # [18:57] <fantasai> CSS2.1 Issue 128
  232. # [18:57] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0025.html
  233. # [18:57] <fantasai> display: run-in clarifications
  234. # [18:57] <fantasai> Bert: We'd made some progress on the mailing list after some very good questions from bz
  235. # [18:57] <fantasai> Bert: So we know ... and where floating children are displayed
  236. # [18:58] <fantasai> Bert: What we don't have yet is what happens with :first-line and :first-letter
  237. # [18:58] <fantasai> Tab: I support Sylvain that :first-line/:first-letter still cause problems.
  238. # [18:58] <fantasai> Tab: Don't know for the positioning ancesters of an abspos child of the run-in.
  239. # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: My position is that it's the element hierarchy rather than the box hierarchy
  240. # [18:59] <fantasai> Bert: That's how I interpret the rules in 10.1
  241. # [18:59] <fantasai> Tab: You should get in on the thread; bz is expressing the opposite
  242. # [19:00] <fantasai> fantasai: Sounds like we need more mailing list discussion
  243. # [19:00] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0605.html
  244. # [19:00] <fantasai> Topic: Message from UPnP forum
  245. # [19:00] * sylvaing is reassured he didn't get himself into a thread with bz under the influence
  246. # [19:01] <fantasai> Daniel: I just noticed this email yesterday
  247. # [19:01] <fantasai> Daniel: Apparently Toby wants an answer before today
  248. # [19:01] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai respond to Toby
  249. # [19:01] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  250. # [19:01] * RRSAgent records action 3
  251. # [19:01] <trackbot> Created ACTION-176 - Respond to Toby [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-09-09].
  252. # [19:02] <fantasai> SteveZ: You can invite them to contribute test cases
  253. # [19:02] <fantasai> ChrisL: I think asking them to help review test cases would be better :)
  254. # [19:02] <fantasai> SteveZ: ok, /contribute/ to the test suite process
  255. # [19:03] <fantasai> Meeting closed
  256. # [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  257. # [19:03] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  258. # [19:03] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  259. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Hakon_Lie
  260. # [19:04] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  261. # [19:04] <Zakim> -bradk
  262. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Bert
  263. # [19:04] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.19.82) (Quit: sylvaing)
  264. # [19:04] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  265. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Daniel_Glazman
  266. # [19:04] <fantasai> Zakim, who was here?
  267. # [19:04] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, fantasai.
  268. # [19:04] <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
  269. # [19:04] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.281.712.aaaa, TabAtkins, Daniel_Glazman, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, sylvaing, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ,
  270. # [19:04] <Zakim> ... Hakon_Lie
  271. # [19:04] <glazou> fantasai: TJ, brad, glazou, chrisl, cesaracebal, howcome, bert, sylvaing
  272. # [19:04] <glazou> stevez
  273. # [19:04] <Zakim> -fantasai
  274. # [19:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  275. # [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.281.712.aaaa, TabAtkins, Daniel_Glazman, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, sylvaing, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ, Hakon_Lie
  276. # [19:04] * Parts: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.176.161)
  277. # [19:05] * Quits: oyvinds (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvinds)
  278. # [19:05] <bradk> "Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, because of your argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it" s/b "Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, but changed that because of the argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it"
  279. # [19:05] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  280. # [19:05] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.101.85) (Quit: leaving)
  281. # [19:09] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  282. # [19:35] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@71.202.66.40) (Ping timeout)
  283. # [19:36] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.111.140.154)
  284. # [20:01] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  285. # [20:41] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [21:10] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  287. # [21:10] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  288. # [22:17] * Joins: Curt`|busy (curt@76.241.64.212)
  289. # [22:19] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  290. # [22:40] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Ping timeout)
  291. # [22:41] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@67.202.67.106)
  292. # [22:44] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@67.202.67.106) (Ping timeout)
  293. # [22:50] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  294. # Session Close: Thu Sep 03 00:00:00 2009

The end :)