/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-09-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 30 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  41. # [17:36] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-CSS-irc
  42. # [17:36] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  43. # [17:36] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
  44. # [17:46] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.19.82)
  45. # [17:52] <glazou> salut sylvaing
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  48. # [17:54] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  49. # [17:55] <Zakim> +glazou
  50. # [17:55] * glazou_ is now known as glazou
  51. # [17:55] <Zakim> +plinss
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  56. # [17:57] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  57. # [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
  58. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
  59. # [17:59] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  60. # [17:59] <Zakim> +bradk
  61. # [17:59] * glazou absolutely needed an espresso
  62. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.281.419.aabb
  63. # [17:59] <hyatt> that's me
  64. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is hyatt
  65. # [17:59] <Zakim> +hyatt; got it
  66. # [18:00] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  67. # [18:00] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  68. # [18:00] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  69. # [18:00] * Zakim sees on the phone: glazou, plinss, TabAtkins, sylvaing, bradk, hyatt, David_Baron
  70. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
  71. # [18:01] * sylvaing forecasts Red Stripes with Tab
  72. # [18:01] * TabAtkins thinks that's an accurate forecast.
  73. # [18:01] * TabAtkins will actually be in on Saturday to visit his brother who's at the nearby naval base.
  74. # [18:01] * sylvaing ...and much crappier ?
  75. # [18:02] * sylvaing actually gets $20 less on the Marriott than the W3C deal so that's not too bad
  76. # [18:02] * dbaron wonders if TabAtkins is referring to Moffett Field or something that's actually still a naval base today
  77. # [18:03] * TabAtkins Actually a naval base today. My bro's a navy translator.
  78. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +49.238.aacc
  79. # [18:03] * dbaron notes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffett_Field says "formerly a United States Navy facility"
  80. # [18:03] * dbaron wonders if that just means they sold it and rent part of it back
  81. # [18:04] * Bert visited a French naval object two weeks ago. (European Cultural Heritage Day.) Had to show passport, but EU citizens were allowed in.
  82. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P9
  83. # [18:04] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P9 is fantasai
  84. # [18:04] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  85. # [18:04] <CesarAcebal> Zakim, +49.238.aacc is CesarAcebal
  86. # [18:04] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  87. # [18:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  88. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/:4bhipd
  89. # [18:06] * TabAtkins for my proposal.
  90. # [18:07] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
  91. # [18:07] <dbaron> Topic: Gradients
  92. # [18:07] <dbaron> Daniel: Two proposals for gradients; consideration of adding to css3-images.
  93. # [18:07] <dbaron> Daniel: Proposal from apple, new proposal from Tab.
  94. # [18:07] <fantasai> Bert doesn't think this should be in CSS at all
  95. # [18:07] <dbaron> Daniel: Still feasible to add to css3-images?
  96. # [18:07] * dbaron actually doesn't want to scribe today, hopes somebody else can take over
  97. # [18:07] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  98. # [18:08] <fantasai> Steve: I went back and checked SVG, and gradients are really a content object
  99. # [18:08] <fantasai> Steve: So why would they be defined in CSS?
  100. # [18:08] <fantasai> Steve: We don't define images, do we?
  101. # [18:08] <fantasai> Brad?: In SVG they're content objects, but not in CSS+HTML documents
  102. # [18:08] * TabAtkins Brad? is me.
  103. # [18:08] <fantasai> dbaron: In SVG, everything is a content object
  104. # [18:09] <fantasai> s/Brad?/Tab/
  105. # [18:09] <fantasai> Tab: The reason they are content in SVG is so you can use in any of your graphics (?)
  106. # [18:09] <fantasai> er
  107. # [18:09] <fantasai> s/Tab/Steve/
  108. # [18:09] <fantasai> Steve: ... why are we defining this in CSS?
  109. # [18:09] <fantasai> Daniel: 1st ...
  110. # [18:10] <fantasai> Daniel: 2nd, creating an SVG object for this is overkill
  111. # [18:10] <fantasai> hyatt: You can use them anywhere there's an image: background-image, list-style-image, etc.
  112. # [18:10] <glazou> s/1st/SVG and HTML4 dont live well together
  113. # [18:10] <fantasai> Tab: In my proposal they're an abstraction as an image in css3-images
  114. # [18:11] <fantasai> hyatt: Yes, that's why we're proposing to put them in css3-images
  115. # [18:11] <fantasai> Sylvain: What ? is saying is that we're defining an image inline in CSS, we don't do that anywhere else
  116. # [18:11] <fantasai> ?: Gradients are very easy to linearize, much smaller when given as text description than as an image
  117. # [18:12] <fantasai> hyatt: We cut out over 40 images when we converted ? to gradients
  118. # [18:12] * TabAtkins ? is me.
  119. # [18:12] <fantasai> hyatt: Very dramatic savings because these images are not that small
  120. # [18:12] <fantasai> Sylvain: ...
  121. # [18:12] <fantasai> Steve: My comment wasn't so much that I thought we should use images for gradients, I don't think that
  122. # [18:13] <fantasai> Steve: I just found it strange in some sense that we were creating CSS syntax for content objects
  123. # [18:13] <fantasai> Daniel: I agree with "content object"
  124. # [18:13] <fantasai> s/agree/disagree/
  125. # [18:13] <fantasai> hyatt: Don't know where you're getting "content object". Everything in SVG is a "content object", doesn't mean it's not presentational
  126. # [18:14] <sylvaing> I buy that this use-case is so common and beneficial that it deserves a 'promotion' to a compact CSS syntax; but as this is an exception, this is a case we may have to explain in the specification.
  127. # [18:14] <fantasai> Steve: Where I'm really going is, given that SVG has gradients, what happens with just doing an SVG-like syntax in CSS?
  128. # [18:14] <fantasai> Steve: Is that totally impossible?
  129. # [18:14] <fantasai> Tab?: I suspect that would be really heavy-weight for what we're trying to do here
  130. # [18:15] <fantasai> Brad?: It's good for a general solution, for doing everything. But gradients are so simple that we'll get a lot of benefit by doing it in a CSS syntax
  131. # [18:15] * TabAtkins Brad? is me.
  132. # [18:15] <fantasai> Steve: I didn't say use SVG. I said use SVG as the model for what the gradient is, and convert that in to CSS syntax
  133. # [18:15] <fantasai> hyatt: That's what we're doing. All the gradients in SVG, Canvas, and CSS.. they're all implemented the same way, just different syntax
  134. # [18:16] <fantasai> hyatt: I think already the syntax is close enough that what you're getting is what you'd get in SVG
  135. # [18:16] <fantasai> Steve: ... creates a problem down the road when the mapping is subtly different
  136. # [18:16] <fantasai> hyatt: It's similar enough that I don't think people will be confused. Especially for linear gradients
  137. # [18:17] <fantasai> Steve: You keep answering in ways that cause me to be concerned e.g. "especially linear gradients, but not radial ones"
  138. # [18:17] <fantasai> Steve: I would be much happier with something that was really really close to what SVG did
  139. # [18:17] <fantasai> Brad???: I would be much happier with something that was much simpler and easier to understand for authors
  140. # [18:18] <fantasai> s/Brad/Tab/
  141. # [18:18] * TabAtkins is Tab
  142. # [18:18] <fantasai> Sylvain: ... from the examples he has in there, show the SVG then we can see how close or far they are
  143. # [18:19] <fantasai> Tab: I'll need help authoring the SVG, I don't know enough
  144. # [18:19] <fantasai> Bert: Just use a tool
  145. # [18:19] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  146. # [18:19] <fantasai> Tab, I suggest asking shepazu for help :)
  147. # [18:20] * fantasai is not minuting this argument between Bert and Glazou
  148. # [18:20] <fantasai> Bert is arguing that people should just us SVG
  149. # [18:20] * sylvaing wonders if one could transform an SVG gradient into Tab's declarations; if so, we have a mapping
  150. # [18:21] * fantasai thinks it's easier to go the other way
  151. # [18:21] * fantasai which is what we reallly need
  152. # [18:21] <fantasai> hyatt: I don't think it's reasonable to ask authors to use XHTML in order to use gradients
  153. # [18:21] <fantasai> Bert would keep the SVG in a separate file
  154. # [18:21] * TabAtkins yeah, going from mine->SVG is probably simpler. Though I'm not sure quite how to make it respond properly to all the box information that my proposal has.
  155. # [18:22] * fantasai ask shepazu, he's an SVG person
  156. # [18:23] <fantasai> Bert complains that CSS has too many features
  157. # [18:23] <fantasai> Tab: I don't know how well SVG responds to resizing
  158. # [18:24] <fantasai> Tab: My proposal explicitly went out of its way to make it simple to hit all the common cases
  159. # [18:24] <fantasai> Sylvain: I agree, and if there's something complicated you want go to SVG there's no argument there
  160. # [18:24] <fantasai> Sylvain: Are asking whether we want gradients as images, or whether we want gradients in CSS at all?
  161. # [18:24] <fantasai> Bert: Let's see what people do with background module, then see if it's necessary
  162. # [18:25] <hyatt> gradients aren't just a fad or phase. they'll be around in years still. :)
  163. # [18:25] <hyatt> they've been in use for years
  164. # [18:25] <fantasai> Sylvain: They've been using gradients with background images for years
  165. # [18:25] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  166. # [18:25] <fantasai> Glazou: I will be speaking at web conference in France. I wanted to tell them that we will have gradients in CSS. If we wont' have it for 4 years, they are going to shout
  167. # [18:28] <fantasai> ...
  168. # [18:28] <shepazu> I'm happy to help if I can see the proposal
  169. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: Doing a gradient at 45deg that resizes appropriately with the box... I don't know how to do that
  170. # [18:28] * TabAtkins shepazu: http://www.xanthir.com/:4bhipd
  171. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: There are a whole bunch of use cases that the proposal handles that you can't do in SVG
  172. # [18:28] <fantasai> s/in/with/
  173. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: The problem with resizing SVG is that you'll get a distortion
  174. # [18:30] <fantasai> Steve: That's not how it works, SVG gradients don't get distorted
  175. # [18:30] <fantasai> clarification: SVG images will get distorted, but if you access the SVG gradient directly and ask it to fill the CSS box then there is no problem
  176. # [18:31] <fantasai> glazou: We already discussed whether to have gradients in CSS in the past. We were supposed to discuss the syntax of them today
  177. # [18:31] * sylvaing thought we had agreed to have gradients in CSS
  178. # [18:31] <fantasai> Steve: I asked why we were defining CSS syntax for gradients
  179. # [18:31] * hyatt thought we had too
  180. # [18:32] <fantasai> Steve: The answer was that we wanted something simpler to use in the most common cases.
  181. # [18:32] <fantasai> Steve: I would like to have the document updated to show the SVG so I can see the syntax.
  182. # [18:32] <fantasai> Glazou: To do that we need to harmonize hyatt and Tab's proposals
  183. # [18:32] <fantasai> hyatt: That's easy. I like Tab's proposal.
  184. # [18:33] <fantasai> hyatt: I like splitting the single gradient() into linear-gradient() and radial-gradient()
  185. # [18:34] <fantasai> hyatt: instead of switching argument syntax based on the first argument
  186. # [18:34] <hyatt> tab's proposal needs to deal with background-repeat
  187. # [18:34] <hyatt> seems to not mention that
  188. # [18:34] <hyatt> and we do need to talk about how the gradient is "tiled"
  189. # [18:34] <hyatt> if we're doing what robert o'callahan proposed
  190. # [18:35] <fantasai> glazou: So let's have a formal proposal in css3-images and then discuss
  191. # [18:35] <fantasai> fantasai: Tab's proposal is practically spec-ready. Why do we need to put off until another discussion?
  192. # [18:36] <fantasai> hyatt: I liked roc's proposal to tile gradients by having them repeat , rather than repeating rectangles of the gradient
  193. # [18:36] <fantasai> ...
  194. # [18:36] <fantasai> Steve: I'm opposed until there are SVG equivalents in the draft so that I can understand the claims that are being made
  195. # [18:36] <fantasai> Sylvain: So you're not opposed to this being included, you just want the draft clarified
  196. # [18:36] <fantasai> Bert: I'm opposed either way
  197. # [18:37] <fantasai> RESOLVED: add gradients to css3-images
  198. # [18:37] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JulSep/0100.html
  199. # [18:37] <fantasai> ACTION: Tab add SVG equivalents to gradients proposal.
  200. # [18:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  201. # [18:37] * RRSAgent records action 1
  202. # [18:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-179 - Add SVG equivalents to gradients proposal. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2009-10-07].
  203. # [18:37] * sylvaing hopes IE supports gradients before Bert has had time to change his mind...:)
  204. # [18:38] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  205. # [18:38] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
  206. # [18:38] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-CSS-irc#T16-38-49
  207. # [18:38] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
  208. # [18:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
  209. # [18:39] * Bert has half a dozen other CSS implementations, not even counting the browsers, that haven't even finished CSS 2.1 yet. I want my floats to work before I even think of gradients...
  210. # [18:39] * sylvaing Bert, the perfect should not be the enemy of the good
  211. # [18:40] <fantasai> It seems like there's a lot left to discuss with drop-shadows,
  212. # [18:40] <fantasai> and given the cascading tangle we'll wind up with if we have
  213. # [18:40] <fantasai> two properties that do drop-shadows, I think we should not
  214. # [18:40] <fantasai> rush through this discussion.
  215. # [18:40] <fantasai> However, the rest of css3-background is ready for Last Call,
  216. # [18:40] <fantasai> and, given that we have multiple implementations already, I
  217. # [18:40] * Bert : exactly. Especially if the perfect is only usable by perfect users (or: at least professionals)
  218. # [18:40] <fantasai> think we should not let the shadow discussion hold us up on
  219. # [18:40] <fantasai> the way to CR.
  220. # [18:40] <fantasai> My proposal is to drop box-shadow from the css3-background
  221. # [18:40] <fantasai> draft, publish a Last Call, and move forward with that module.
  222. # [18:40] <fantasai> If we resolve the shadows discussion within the Last Call
  223. # [18:40] <fantasai> period, we can reincorporate it into the draft and publish
  224. # [18:40] <fantasai> another Last Call before pushing out to CR. If we don't wrap
  225. # [18:40] <fantasai> up by then, then I think we should publish the CR and continue
  226. # [18:40] <fantasai> to develop a cohesive solution for CSS shadows separately. If
  227. # [18:40] <fantasai> necessary we can recombine shadows and the css3-background
  228. # [18:40] <fantasai> module once CSS drop-shadows has also (independently) reached
  229. # [18:40] <fantasai> the CR phase.
  230. # [18:40] <fantasai> This way we can give CSS drop-shadows the time it deserves,
  231. # [18:40] <fantasai> have a way for it to catch up with the rest of the draft, and
  232. # [18:40] <fantasai> also not block the other css3-background features which
  233. # [18:40] <fantasai> authors are very anxious to start using.
  234. # [18:40] <fantasai> ~fantasai
  235. # [18:41] <ChrisL> Tab, if you need a hand on the SVG equivalents, give me a shout. i know a couple of things about SVG :)
  236. # [18:41] <fantasai> Tab: It does seem we have a lot of things to discuss and I'd like to see what Brad's proposal can do
  237. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> ChrisL, shepazu: I'll get with both of you today.
  238. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> My examples are already there in the draft, I just need SVG equivalents for them.
  239. # [18:43] <shepazu> looks like it shoudl be easy
  240. # [18:43] <fantasai> Hyatt: I think box-shadow is an important feature, and I don't want to drop it from the draft
  241. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> Then I need to generate some difficult examples. ^_^
  242. # [18:43] <hyatt> we had dropped the prefix from box-shadow already (in nightly builds)
  243. # [18:43] <hyatt> guess it has to get put back!
  244. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's more important for us to finish off the other features in css3-background this year. We have 3 implementations ready to go, we just need the draft in CR for them to drop prefixes and interoperate
  245. # [18:44] * TabAtkins notes that he found it easier to write a moderate-level CSS parser and image generator, than to make those examples in GIMP.
  246. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm fine with re-merging it back in once it's ready, but I don't want to hold up the other features and I don't want to cut off the box-shadow discussions prematurely
  247. # [18:44] <fantasai> Brad: Do we have a shadow module?
  248. # [18:44] <dbaron> I'm happy with moving to LC without box-shadow for now.
  249. # [18:44] <fantasai> fantasai: we can create one
  250. # [18:45] <fantasai> Brad: Then we can discuss how the different shadows interaction, e.g. text-shadow
  251. # [18:45] <fantasai> Tab: I'm for pulling it out
  252. # [18:45] <fantasai> Daniel: I am too. Given the constraints, it's reasonable
  253. # [18:45] <fantasai> Brad: I agree
  254. # [18:45] <fantasai> Bert: I agree with Elika
  255. # [18:45] <fantasai> Daniel: No objection?
  256. # [18:46] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop box-shadow from css3-background
  257. # [18:46] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Sep/0180.html
  258. # [18:46] <fantasai> Topic: Extensions to the Mouse Events Interface
  259. # [18:46] <fantasai> RESOLVED: work on box-shadow outside css3-background for the time being; possibly re-merge with draft later
  260. # [18:47] <glazou> shepazu: can you attend the call ?
  261. # [18:47] <Bert> It's sad. Rectangular box shadows I've wanted since CSS1. But holding up the module for that one feature is not wise.
  262. # [18:47] * shepazu right now?
  263. # [18:47] <fantasai> yes
  264. # [18:47] <glazou> let's defer the MouseEvent discussion until you're available, shepazu ?
  265. # [18:47] * sylvaing yes, there are Microsoft people at the SVG F2F. Really.
  266. # [18:48] <fantasai> Daniel: Let's move on
  267. # [18:48] <shepazu> Zakim, code?
  268. # [18:48] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
  269. # [18:48] <glazou> shepazu: coming ?
  270. # [18:49] <fantasai> Topic: Resizing border-image when the box is too small
  271. # [18:49] * shepazu yes... fantasai, are you at Moz?
  272. # [18:49] <fantasai> Brad: I'd like them to resize the same way
  273. # [18:49] <fantasai> shepazu, no I'm at home
  274. # [18:49] <fantasai> Brad: as border-radius
  275. # [18:49] <glazou> shepazu: nm, we'll discuss another time when you're not in a ftf
  276. # [18:49] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  277. # [18:50] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  278. # [18:50] <shepazu> Zakim, [Mozilla] is shepazu
  279. # [18:50] <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
  280. # [18:50] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  281. # [18:50] <glazou> shepazu: hold on finishing another topic
  282. # [18:50] <fantasai> fantasai: I think the original intention was for each dimension to resize independently, but I'm ok with changing
  283. # [18:51] <fantasai> fantasai: Bert?
  284. # [18:51] <fantasai> Bert: I haven't quite made up my mind. I do think they should resize the same way as border-radius
  285. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: ok, that's all we need here; we can work out the text later
  286. # [18:52] <sylvaing> No objection
  287. # [18:52] <fantasai> Daniel: no objections?
  288. # [18:52] <dbaron> I'd want to see what it actually gets resolved to.
  289. # [18:52] <fantasai> RESOLVED: border-image resizes to small boxes the same way as border-radius
  290. # [18:52] <fantasai> Topic: Mouse Events
  291. # [18:52] <dbaron> I like the way it works for border-radius, and I have no idea what the rules for border-image are.
  292. # [18:52] <fantasai> Doug sent an email on the extensions to the mouse interface
  293. # [18:53] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Sep/0180.html
  294. # [18:53] <bradk> they overlap, then their used values are proportionally reduced until
  295. # [18:53] <bradk> they no longer overlap.
  296. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: Is there anyone one the CSS end that knows about this stuff?
  297. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: because Anne is not here
  298. # [18:54] <fantasai> hyatt looks it over
  299. # [18:54] <fantasai> hyatt: I think this is just formalizing things that everyone implements
  300. # [18:54] <fantasai> Doug: Why are they being done here rather than in DOM3 Events?
  301. # [18:54] <fantasai> hyatt: I don't know
  302. # [18:54] <fantasai> hyatt: I think it'd be fine to specify in DOM3 Events
  303. # [18:55] <fantasai> Doug reads off a description of location, specified in relation for box module
  304. # [18:55] <fantasai> Doug: For SVG it'd be the ?
  305. # [18:55] <fantasai> Doug: I'm editing DOM3 Events. I'm not sure if this should stay in this draft or move over to DOM3 Events
  306. # [18:56] <fantasai> Doug: I'd rather have them in DOM3 Events which is more general; these would be usef in SVG as well
  307. # [18:56] <fantasai> Sylvain: We're talking about cssom-view
  308. # [18:56] <fantasai> Sylvian: A lot of that has to do with formalizing stuff to the CSS box model.
  309. # [18:56] <fantasai> Sylvain: Would it really be useful in an SVG document?
  310. # [18:56] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  311. # [18:57] <fantasai> Sylvain: do you really want to use these properties in SVG? They're legacy, they're not extensions in a good sense, they're there to document legacy interop behavior
  312. # [18:57] <fantasai> Doug: I'll talk with SVG WG to see if we want these features
  313. # [18:58] <fantasai> Sylvain: Not all these features will be useful in SVG
  314. # [18:58] <fantasai> Sylvain: It would be nice if it was clean and you only had one dependency, but...
  315. # [18:59] <fantasai> Doug: Perhaps the best solution would be to define the relation of the padding box in CSS and the bounding box in SVG
  316. # [18:59] <fantasai> Doug: As for gradients, I didn't see anything you can't do in SVG. I'm happy to help with examples.
  317. # [18:59] <Zakim> -shepazu
  318. # [19:00] <Zakim> -hyatt
  319. # [19:00] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  320. # [19:00] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  321. # [19:00] <Zakim> -bradk
  322. # [19:00] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  323. # [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
  324. # [19:00] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  325. # [19:00] <Zakim> -plinss
  326. # [19:00] <Zakim> -glazou
  327. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Bert
  328. # [19:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  329. # [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, plinss, TabAtkins, +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, bradk, +1.281.419.aabb, hyatt, David_Baron, Bert, fantasai, CesarAcebal, SteveZ, shepazu
  330. # [19:00] <fantasai> Meeting closed
  331. # [19:01] * Parts: CesarAcebal (acebal@193.51.208.72)
  332. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> I still cannot distinguish between glazou and sylvaing on the phone. >_< Perhaps some ftf will help.
  333. # [19:01] <glazou> TabAtkins: I'll try to use an even more french accent next time
  334. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> But then, Brad and I apparently sound similar.
  335. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> glazou: That'll work.
  336. # [19:01] <glazou> #glazou { voice: InspectorClouseau; }
  337. # [19:02] <glazou> yes Brad and I sound similar
  338. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> shepazu: I don't doubt that all the images are pretty easy to do as static versions. What I'm not sure of is if they can be done while resizing with the box in the same way.
  339. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> I can give details on exactly how they're supposed to stretch.
  340. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> So you don't have to read the draft. ^_^
  341. # [19:03] * Quits: myakura (myakura@123.224.118.12) (Quit: Leaving...)
  342. # [19:03] <bradk> oui, monsieur
  343. # [19:04] <glazou> bradk: if you start speaking french too, TabAtkins will be totally lost ;-)
  344. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> omg
  345. # [19:05] <Bert> If we all started talking French, maybe it would be easier to know who talked... :-)
  346. # [19:05] <bradk> I'll just do a John Wayne impersonation from now on.
  347. # [19:05] <glazou> LOL
  348. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> I'll go heavy texan drawl.
  349. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> It may be harder to understand me, but at least I'll be easy to identify.
  350. # [19:06] <glazou> or sylvaing and I can spea french, howcome norwegian, bert dutch
  351. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> I support this proposal.
  352. # [19:06] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.102) (Ping timeout)
  353. # [19:07] <glazou> and for side discussions, I'll use swedish with howcome and spanish with Cesar
  354. # [19:07] <glazou> ;)
  355. # [19:07] <glazou> anyway, time to cook dinner, bye people
  356. # [19:08] <Bert> It'll be like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle: we'll either know that it's Tab who speak, or we'll know what he says, but not both at the same time :-)
  357. # [19:08] <glazou> ROFL
  358. # [19:08] <glazou> bye
  359. # [19:08] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  360. # [19:08] <bradk> lol
  361. # [19:08] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  362. # [19:08] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  363. # [19:10] * TabAtkins wonders how American he sounds anyway.
  364. # [19:10] * TabAtkins grew up in Houston, and so has a pretty homogenized accent.
  365. # [19:12] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.106)
  366. # [19:32] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.19.82) (Ping timeout)
  367. # [19:35] * hyatt lives in Houston
  368. # [19:35] <hyatt> well a bit north up in The Woodlands :)
  369. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> Holy crap, really? My parents live in Spring.
  370. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> I'm about an hour away from there now, down in Richmond in the SW.
  371. # [19:38] <hyatt> cool
  372. # [19:38] <hyatt> yeah i work remotely for apple
  373. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> We need to get drinks sometime when I'm up there.
  374. # [19:46] * Joins: SteveZ2 (chatzilla@67.180.89.27)
  375. # [19:46] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.89.27) (Connection reset by peer)
  376. # [19:46] * SteveZ2 is now known as szilles
  377. # [19:56] <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's not that you and Brad sound all that similar, it's just that you're both unfamiliar.
  378. # [19:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: btw, do you have dev.w3.org access?
  379. # [19:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins: if not, you should send your ssh key to Bert so he can set that up
  380. # [19:59] <fantasai> hyatt: Do you guys use the 'repeat' option for border-image anywhere?
  381. # [19:59] <hyatt> mostly just use stretch
  382. # [20:00] <hyatt> somebody may use repeat though
  383. # [20:00] <hyatt> i'd have to ask ichat folks
  384. # [20:00] <fantasai> can you do that? because it seems like it's not very useful as defined
  385. # [20:00] <fantasai> according to recent discussion on the list
  386. # [20:00] <fantasai> so I'm thinking maybe we should just drop it
  387. # [20:01] <fantasai> and replace it with 'space'
  388. # [20:04] <dbaron> I suspect 'repeat' may be only useful as a performance optimization when the stretching that 'round' does isn't necessary because the border is uniform.
  389. # [20:04] <dbaron> (uniform on the sides)
  390. # [20:04] <hyatt> we've basically hit the "just back away from border image until it stops churning" point in webkit
  391. # [20:04] <hyatt> we're ignoring it until it settles down
  392. # [20:04] <hyatt> sinc
  393. # [20:04] <hyatt> since it's so different now from what we originally implemented
  394. # [20:13] * fantasai wants to publish LC next week or so
  395. # [20:22] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@79.143.132.28)
  396. # [20:44] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.201.21.231) (Quit: hyatt)
  397. # [20:45] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.89.27) (Ping timeout)
  398. # [20:45] * Joins: SteveZ2 (chatzilla@67.180.89.27)
  399. # [20:46] * SteveZ2 is now known as szilles
  400. # [21:12] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  401. # [21:17] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.89.27) (Ping timeout)
  402. # [21:18] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.89.27)
  403. # [21:18] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  404. # [21:18] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  405. # [21:20] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  406. # [21:23] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.201.21.231)
  407. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Hmm, I sent Bert my key after the first telecon. I suspeect something's slipped through the cracks.
  408. # [21:33] * Bert sees an alert on his name...
  409. # [21:34] <Bert> Let me check what happened.
  410. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Cool.
  411. # [21:36] <Bert> 26 Aug, that must be working by now, in theory...
  412. # [21:37] <Bert> You didn't get an e-mail with confirmation, in the week following the 26th?
  413. # [21:37] <Bert> Yes, 3 Sep
  414. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Hmm, dont' think so, but let me check.
  415. # [21:38] <Bert> Maybe it was only sent to me then.
  416. # [21:38] <Bert> In that case, it's my fault for not forwarding it.
  417. # [21:38] <Bert> (But I don't think I ever had to forward it before.)
  418. # [21:38] <Bert> In any case, it's supposed to be working.
  419. # [21:39] <Bert> You're recommended to read http://www.w3.org/Project/CVSdoc/
  420. # [21:39] <Bert> and http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/SettingUpSshCvs
  421. # [21:40] <Bert> If you have an ssh command handy, you can try: ssh dev.w3.org
  422. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Yeah, didn't get anything on Sep 3rd.
  423. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> k, one sec.
  424. # [21:40] <Bert> You can't actually log in, it's CVS only, but
  425. # [21:40] <Bert> it should not give any errors.
  426. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah, getting a prompt.
  427. # [21:42] <Bert> A prompt, really? It's supposed to just stop with an empty line.
  428. # [21:42] <Bert> But maybe your ssh client is different frommine.
  429. # [21:43] <Bert> But as long as you get no error about refused access, I guess it's OK.
  430. # [21:43] <Bert> Next step is setting up CVS :-)
  431. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Well, I get a login prompt I mean. Not a command prompt.
  432. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Ooh, I didn't know Tortoise made a CVS client. Awesome.
  433. # [21:51] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  434. # [22:01] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.89.27) (Ping timeout)
  435. # [22:41] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@79.143.132.28) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
  436. # [22:43] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So, the way this works is you edit Overview.src.html
  437. # [22:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Overview.html is generated from Overview.src.html
  438. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> k
  439. # [22:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: There are two ways to do that, one is via Bert's form
  440. # [22:44] * fantasai goes to look for that
  441. # [22:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: The other is via commandline
  442. # [22:44] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I usually run a script with the relevant command to generate Overview.html
  443. # [22:45] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/postprocess
  444. # [22:46] <fantasai> The script I use is just a text file with
  445. # [22:46] <fantasai> curl -u user:PASS -F file=@Overview.src.html -F group=CSS -F output=html -F method=file http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/process.cgi -o Overview.html
  446. # [22:47] <fantasai> TabAtkins: So you should now be able to copy your proposal into the css3-images Editor's Draft
  447. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> k
  448. # [22:49] <Bert> If you like the command line and have a "make" command, there are some handy Makefiles in various directories.
  449. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Hrm...
  450. # [22:54] * TabAtkins gets errors.
  451. # [22:54] <Bert> B.t.w, fantasai, I don't think your latest edit to Backgrounds is correct. ceil() is better than round(), bcause it creates fewer raster artifacts. Moreover, you introduced a risk of incompatibility by allowing UAs to use different algorithms in unsepcified cases.
  452. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Huh. I keep getting a "[checkout aborted]: end of file from server" error.
  453. # [23:19] <Bert> Not an error message that I recognize...
  454. # [23:19] <Bert> Are you using the correct path?
  455. # [23:20] <Bert> From the top lebel directory of your checkout space: cvs get csswg/css3-images
  456. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Ah, getting a better error message now. I still don't have my key set up properly.
  457. # [23:24] <Bert> Did you set a CVSROOT? Try including your login in that: CVSROOT=tatkinsj@dev.w3.org:/sources/public
  458. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Yeah, CVSROOT's fine. I just haven't connected an ssh tunnel yet.
  459. # [23:25] <Bert> You shouldn't need a tunnel. CVS uses ssh directly.
  460. # [23:25] <Bert> As long as you tell it to. I have CVS_RSH=ssh
  461. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> How is it telling what my key is, though? At the moment I keep getting a "Host key verification failed"
  462. # [23:30] <Bert> Try ssh -v dev.w3.org in a terminal. Among the many lines of output should be the various keys it tries.
  463. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Ah, yup, none of those are my key. One moment.
  464. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Hrm, so trying to a direct ssh connection finds my key now, but still dies with "Host key verification failed."
  465. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> That should just be my public key, right?
  466. # [23:37] <Bert> Yes, it should use id_rsa
  467. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Bleh, still no good. Same error. Hrm.
  468. # [23:39] <Bert> Wait, host key you said?
  469. # [23:40] <Bert> Maybe you haven't accepted the host key yet.
  470. # [23:40] <Bert> Did you get prompted with a hex fingerprint and a question to accept an unknown host?
  471. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I don't think so.
  472. # [23:42] <Bert> The host key is the key from dev.w3.org that is verified by your ssh client. dev.w3.org in return verifies your RSA key.
  473. # [23:43] <Bert> I have a file "known_hosts" that contains the key from dev.w3.org. The first time I connected, that got added.
  474. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Hm, my /.ssh folder doesn't have known_hosts. I wonder why?
  475. # [23:44] <Bert> Obvious first question: is the directory writable? :-)
  476. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's 700.
  477. # [23:47] <Bert> That's what it should be, yes.
  478. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> How strange. I'm sshing into it from my work server, and it asks me about the fingerprint like normal. I'm just not getting that from my personal server.
  479. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Shrug, I guess I'll use my work server for it.
  480. # [23:55] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.201.21.231) (Quit: hyatt)
  481. # [23:55] <Bert> Do you have a ./ssh/config file with options in it that should not apply to dev.w3.org?
  482. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Nope.
  483. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> Got it checked out now on my work server.
  484. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> Was easy on a computer that wasn't crazy.
  485. # [23:57] <Bert> Is your machine hacked and are you running an ssh that's actually a trojan without you knowing it? (public key systems make you paranoid. :-) )
  486. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Doubt it. My server provider is quite good about that.
  487. # [23:59] * TabAtkins should probably pick up a cheap harddrive and get the disassembled machine sitting next to him working as a server.
  488. # Session Close: Thu Oct 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)