/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-10-07 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 07 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #css
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# [04:04] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group discussion'
# [04:04] * Set by fantasai on Wed Sep 02 17:56:17
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# [17:47] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-CSS-irc
# [17:47] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:47] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
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# [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:56] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [17:56] <TabAtkins> Woo frist!
# [17:56] <Zakim> +sylvaing
# [17:57] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
# [17:57] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [17:57] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
# [17:57] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou
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# [17:59] <Zakim> +??P18
# [18:00] <plinss_> zakim, ??P18 is fantasai
# [18:00] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:00] * dsinger ttippety tappety
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Bert
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# [18:01] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
# [18:01] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-CSS-irc#T16-01-39
# [18:01] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
# [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ChrisL
# [18:01] <Zakim> +bradk
# [18:03] * sylvaing needs to check out ParisWeb someday
# [18:03] <ChrisL> zakim, call chris-work
# [18:03] <Zakim> ok, ChrisL; the call is being made
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Chris
# [18:04] <dbaron> I'm getting "this passcode is not valid"
# [18:04] <dbaron> Zakim, passcode?
# [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dbaron
# [18:04] <dbaron> but I have te right one
# [18:04] <ChrisL> i'm not getting any response at all
# [18:04] <ChrisL> zakim, call chris-work
# [18:04] <Zakim> ok, ChrisL; the call is being made
# [18:04] <Zakim> +David_Baron
# [18:04] <Zakim> +Chris.a
# [18:05] <plinss_> I didn't get a ring signal when I called, and no response at all until I called back...
# [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, mute Baron
# [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Baron
# [18:05] <plinss_> If you're having problems dialing in, just keep trying
# [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
# [18:05] <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
# [18:05] <Zakim> -Chris
# [18:05] <ChrisL> aha
# [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see TabAtkins, sylvaing, [Apple], plinss, glazou, fantasai, CesarAcebal, Bert, bradk, David_Baron (muted), Chris.a (muted)
# [18:05] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.617.588.aaaa - is perhaps Simon
# [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:06] <ChrisL> seventh time lucky, it seems
# [18:06] <glazou> hi ChrisL
# [18:06] <ChrisL> hi glazou
# [18:06] <Zakim> -Chris.a
# [18:06] * ChrisL is jetlagged, just back from 10 days in silicon valley
# [18:06] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.119)
# [18:06] <bradk> Zakim, please transcribe
# [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'please transcribe', bradk
# [18:06] <bradk> Ah, well
# [18:07] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@67.174.196.138)
# [18:07] <sylvaing> scribenick:TabAtkins
# [18:07] <bradk> Merci, Tab
# [18:07] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> Zakim, scribenick: TabAtkins
# [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribenick: TabAtkins', TabAtkins
# [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:08] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (22%)
# [18:08] <glazou> lot of noise in my bg sorry
# [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:08] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I want to discuss CSS3 backgrounds early in the agenda.
# [18:08] * ChrisL someone get the kettle
# [18:08] <dsinger> ow
# [18:08] <glazou> uuuurgh
# [18:08] * sylvaing lol
# [18:08] * Bert : zakim and rrsagent are two separate 'bots. Zakim knows about the phone, RRSAgent knows about scribing.
# [18:09] * TabAtkins ah, right.
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> RRSAgent, scribenick TabAtkins
# [18:09] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'scribenick TabAtkins', TabAtkins. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [18:09] * fantasai bradk check your email
# [18:09] <glazou> people, let me give you a few news from a former CSS WG Member, Robert Stevahn from HP : http://pikchur.com/hHt :-)
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Elika, I presume you want to discuss border images?
# [18:10] <plinss_> s/ChrisL/plinss/
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: No, that's CSS3 images. The only issue I know of is to round up or down, or having a "round" keyword.
# [18:10] * TabAtkins sorry, didn't recognize the voice.
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Rather, the action of 'round' keyword.
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> ?: The issue is round up or down, right? and it's only relevant at .5 of an image?
# [18:11] <glazou> TabAtkins: that was chrisL
# [18:11] <ChrisL> always round to the nearest, in my opinion
# [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:11] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> fantasai: no, argument is whether we shoudl round up/down, or always down. Round up/down is nicer, but always down may be better in raster images.
# [18:11] <ChrisL> s/?/ChrisL/
# [18:11] <Zakim> -bradk
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'm convinced by Brad's argument that rounding up/down is okay.
# [18:11] <bradk> arrggghhh
# [18:12] <bradk> phone dropped
# [18:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:12] <Zakim> +bradk
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> ?: Choice between round and truncate.
# [18:12] * dbaron notes ChrisL means numeric truncation rather than image truncation
# [18:12] <dbaron> s/?:/ChrisL:/
# [18:12] <dsinger> ? huh?
# [18:12] <fantasai> ceil() vs. round() in the formula
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> ?: If you get, say, 3.95 images to fit, rounding down means dropping to 3 images, right?
# [18:12] * dbaron thinks it's floor() vs. round()
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> Bleh, that's ChrisL at that point.
# [18:12] <arronei> zakim, Microsoft is arronei
# [18:12] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> ?: What we want isn't floor or ceiling, but windowsill! Halfway up!
# [18:13] <dbaron> s/?:/ChrisL:/
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> ?: So, when discussing 3.95 images, should we go to 3 or 4?
# [18:13] <ChrisL> 4
# [18:14] * TabAtkins man, I'm bad at naming.
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We definitely want to be scaling to closest number.
# [18:14] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [18:14] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> fantasai: With always rounding down, we get *shape* distortion, while a high-enough resolution makes the stretching-up not bad.
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You'll usually only be stretching up just a little bit. And when the author still isn't happy with the effect, they can give a higher-resolution image and sizing it down in CSS.
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Also, we'll later be able to specify how many device px go into a CSS px.
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> ?: The problem is that that's assumign the author knows the width, but what if they don't?
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You'll often know, but if you don't, just provide a higher-resolution image, especially if you think you'll have few tiles. More tiles means less percentage scaling.
# [18:16] <plinss_> s/?/plinss/
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The author at least should have a good idea of whther it's 3-4 tiles or 30-40 tiles.
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And if they're really fussy, they can just provide a higher-resolution image every time.
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> plinss_: My concern is, the decision to scale up/down or always in one direction, kinda depends on the content of the image. Why not give the author control of this - augment 'round' with 'floor' and 'ceil'?
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think that's too much. I can't see any real justification for wanting to floor or ceil that can't be solved with higher-resolution.
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> ?: If the author doesn't need to decide, then we don't need to discuss this. We can just decide.
# [18:18] <Bert> (In my experience, scaling images down never looks bad, while scaling up often does. More so with JPEG, but even with PNG.)
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> ?: But this really isn't an implementation cost. Two more keywords is just like 4 lines of code.
# [18:18] <dsinger> but scaling down loses detail, whereas scaling up does not
# [18:18] * sylvaing ceil(round(gradient(calc(...))))
# [18:18] <plinss_> s/?/ChrisL/
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I don't think people are asking for this.
# [18:18] <dsinger> sure, scaled down looks better as nothing is invented; but something is lost
# [18:18] * ChrisL invites sylvain to say that on the record
# [18:19] <dsinger> oh, we're talking non-propoertional scaling
# [18:19] <dsinger> ?
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> fantasai: In border-image, the height is fixed. If you scale the image it changes dimensions - circle will become ovallike. Using round() will produce less distortion.
# [18:19] <dsinger> s/propoertional/proportional/
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> ?: I don't think anybody is saying round() shouldn't be the default. We're saying that floor/ceil might be useful as an option when you need it.
# [18:19] <ChrisL> s/?:/Chrisl:/g
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> ?: I think we can always add ceil and floor later.
# [18:20] <plinss_> s/?/szilles/
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And you can always provide an image with twice the resolution. It will always scale down.
# [18:20] * TabAtkins I thought so! Woo!
# [18:20] * ChrisL grins
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> szilles: There may be times you don't want to go with higher resolution. But my point is we can add ceil and floor keywords later, so we don't have to decide yet.
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Agreed. We can add it later if there is demand for it.
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> ?: If the image is vector, not raster, does it get resampled?
# [18:21] <fantasai> s/?/Sylvain/
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> ?: Well, with vector images the size will be telling you how large to draw it straight off. You're not ever resampling.
# [18:21] * ChrisL imaginses a set of voice samples linked off the wg page, for the benefit of scribes-in-training
# [18:21] * TabAtkins Will learn everyone. I swear it.
# [18:21] <plinss_> s/?/chrisl/
# [18:22] * TabAtkins hopes that TPAC will help.
# [18:22] * fantasai thinks you're doing good, and don't worry about not recognizing voices, it takes time
# [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:22] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [18:22] * sylvaing wow
# [18:23] <Bert> Future extension (but not really what I hope for...): 'background-repeat: repeat | space | round | ... | round-up | round-down'
# [18:23] <glazou> CSS WG delirium tremens
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> straw poll! Who can't live with round()?
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> I'm okay with it.
# [18:23] * dbaron prefers hexagonal :-)
# [18:23] <glazou> I should have bet !!!!!
# [18:24] * Parts: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
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# [18:24] * Parts: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't like it. I was doing some experiments, and scaling down always looked okay, while scaling up often looked bad.
# [18:24] <ChrisL> interpolation with nearest-neighbor will usually look like crap
# [18:24] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> Bert: Depends on the image, but you'll lose detail when getting small anyway.
# [18:24] <ChrisL> also attempting to scale in an indexed color space. Promote to 24bit first
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> Bert: If you have a 1px line somewhere, it will become gray. this is better than scaling up, where things that were gray will become blocks.
# [18:25] * Quits: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.119) (Client exited)
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> ?: But does detail matter that much?
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> Bert: For backgrounds, no, but for borders it does.
# [18:25] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.119)
# [18:25] <Bert> s/?/Sylvain/
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> szilles: It seems unusual to round in this situation.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you have just a few tiles, you can use background-size with border-image to effectively increase the resolution. So when scaling 'up', you'll still be scaling down from the original.
# [18:26] * sylvaing finds the background property set to be complex enough as it is
# [18:27] * ChrisL would like to continue with the straw poll
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> plinss_: My objection is that you rejected round-up and round-down for complexity, but your workaround is a lot more complex than a keyword.
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Bert, I heard that you're not opposed to round, but concerned that it won't give enough control?
# [18:27] <fantasai> He's concerned about quality, not about control.
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> Bert: I know that scaling down is always okay, but am concerned that scaling up won't always look good. I'm surprised that designers on the list are okay with this.
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> ?: Pete, do you have an actual objection, or just a concern?
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Just a concern. I don't think adding the keywords adds much complexity, and I think arguments about "this will look good" will depend on intent, which we can't predict. Why not give control to the author?
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> ?: I'm not against this.
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The tests I had used rounding for vector images.
# [18:29] <fantasai> s/text/
# [18:29] <plinss_> s/?/BradK/
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> ?: I could live with rounding. I also like the extra keywords, since they're not much of an implementor burden, but can live without them, since we can add them later.
# [18:30] <plinss_> s/?/chrisl/
# [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: I had text that required rounding for vector images and high-res images, but required scaling down for low-res images (where you would have to interpolate)
# [18:30] <fantasai> fantasai: we could go back to that
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> Bert: Okay, I think we should add text for the dividing by zero case.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, that's easy to fix.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Bert, you're concerned about the quality of the images being scaled up.
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We could go back to the text from a few revisions ago where you round with vector images or images that are high-enough resolution.
# [18:31] * ChrisL "implementations SHOULD avoid dividing by zero, but MAY do so within a try ... catch"
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But only have scaling-down-always if you would have to interpolate pixels.
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> BradK: But that seems a little worse than the extra keyword. I *have* to provide a higher-resolution image to keep it from always rounding down.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> BradK: I'd prefer keywords to doing that auto-detection.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> Bert: Elika, you were saying you wanted a distincction between raster and vector image?
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: No, distinction between when you have to interpolate pixels. Low-res raster vs (high-res raster + vector).
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Bert: So you can scale up as long as you don't exceed the original resolution?
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> ?: You can scale up as long as you don't scale up?
# [18:33] <plinss_> s/?/chrisl/
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Bert: No, two-step process. First scale by background-size, then apply rounding.
# [18:33] * TabAtkins Okay, that was my thought.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: That's okay as long as it's clear you don't scale the image multiple times. Need to make that clear to prevent implementors from thinking multiple-scaling is required.
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Consensus?
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> BradK: I prefer less distortion.
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> me: I prefer the keyword approach.
# [18:35] * bradk prefers less distortion, doesn't mind an extra keyword
# [18:35] * TabAtkins that last bradk wasn't bradk.
# [18:36] <bradk> Yes it was
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> szilles: I prefer seeing more experience with how it's used rather than using a fairly complex algorithm that wont' be obvious.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> ?: You have to think about what to do with browsers that don't recognize those new keywords.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> szilles: They round.
# [18:36] * TabAtkins Sorry, brad.
# [18:36] <plinss_> s/?/dsinger/
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That won't be a problem. There's not any deployed unprefixed versions yet.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> szilles: They'd end up ignoring what they didn't understand, which means they'd go with the default.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> plinss_: That's probably not the author's intent.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: They can list it twice, without the new keyword and then with; that will work.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> plinss_: I'm hearing two different dissenting opinions.
# [18:38] <dsinger> I'm only asking questions, not dissenting
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> szillees: I say pick the simple solution now, see how people use it, and extend it later if necessary.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I want no extra keywords unless people say "I'm unhappy with this pixelation."
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We're not publishing CR here, we can have comments. People can give feedback.
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> plinss_: That works for me. We can let people comment and see what comes out.
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So go with round for now?
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes.
# [18:40] <bradk> no that was me
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> plinss_ Not hearing any objections?
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> Bert: Works for me.
# [18:40] <dsinger> s/was/works/
# [18:40] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai mark this as an issue
# [18:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:40] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-180 - Mark this as an issue [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-10-14].
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Can we publish last call, or are there more comments?
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> many: general agreement
# [18:40] <sylvaing> LC! LC! LC!
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Objections?
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> voice of the people: no
# [18:41] * glazou imagines sylvaing in a monty python film, with a beard, shouting spam! spam! spam! :-)
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> BradK: Is there a use for border-image-size?
# [18:41] * Bert wonders what Ellika will mark as an issue when she re-reads the action next week :-)
# [18:41] * TabAtkins Okay, good, was hoping that cut-up wasn't just me.
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> BradK: You can't do the background-size with border-image, so I don't think that's a good idea.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So you want to take an image and treat it as 2 devicepx equals 1 CSS px.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> BradK: I can't do percentages in border-radius, but I can simulate this with border-image.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I was thinking about dropping percentags from border-image.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> BradK: I think you should do so, or else add it to border-image.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> ?: Do we have % on border-radius now?
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: no.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> ?: we should add it.
# [18:43] <plinss_> s/?/howcome/
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Did we figure out what it means?
# [18:43] <dbaron> s/?:/howcome/
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> howcome: I have one suggestion. I can send an email, though.
# [18:43] * TabAtkins something about last call?
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's the confusing thing. We have impl that support % on border-radius, but they do different things.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Some scale border-radius separately, some do them together.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> howcome: I agree, but I think it's so useful that the spec should have it.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> ?: Is it mainly useful for ovals?
# [18:44] <glazou> sorry guys I have to leave the call, bye
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> howcome: Yes.
# [18:44] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: must leave, bye)
# [18:44] <ChrisL> so 50% 50% gives you ovals
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: In other words, 50% 50% gives you ovals.
# [18:44] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> Me: I like howcome's approach.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> ?: I don't think that's what you want.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> howcome: No, that's exactly what I want.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If there's consensus we can put it in.
# [18:45] * sylvaing predicts those ovals will look perfectly square in IE6
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> BradK: I think it shoudl be the same in border-radius and border-image, so peopl don't get confused about how it works.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> plinss_: I'm not sure if % scaling on the side it's from will give people what they want.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's hard to switch between them.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: One of the most common effects is doing a percentage on one side and keeping it square.
# [18:46] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
# [18:46] <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And making it so there's no straight part. You can rely on making a huge radius and allowing it to scale down proportionately.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Bert: Yeah, it scales down, but equally. If the box is taller than wide, it'll leave you straight sides.
# [18:47] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
# [18:47] <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> ?: It scales with the aspect ratio.
# [18:47] <dbaron> dbaron: It only works if you know the aspect ratio of the box.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Two use-cases. One is a button, one is an oval.
# [18:47] * dsinger lissajous figures
# [18:47] <Bert> lozenge
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> howcome: But you can hack buttons without %-per-side, but you can't do ovals with %-is-width.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> Bert: You can create lozenges by specifying "25in" for border-radius or someething, that will never be that big, so it will scale down.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> ?: But when you scale it down you're not going to get a straight line.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> howcome: are you talking about diamong shaped?
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> bradk: for the lozenge shape, it would scale down until the two corners met and you'd have a lozenge shape.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> howcome: So it's a button you want? A button you can specify today, currently. You shouldn't have to rely on scaling down.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> howcome: Just set the border-radius and do whatever you want.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: YOu have to know the height.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> howcome: Okay, if you don't know the height, you set it to big and it rounds down.
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> fantasai: typically you have only one line of text in which case you can use ems. Not perfect, but a good approximation.
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> plinss_: There are other options, like a %height or %width unit.
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, but it's not important enough to add right now.
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> howcome: I agree. Of course, I want the percentage to be of whatever I want. ^_^
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> BradK: So %-per-side allows ovals, but you can get lozenges if you want.
# [18:51] <Bert> Does 'border-radius: 50%' give you a quarter circle, or does it mean '50% / 50&'?
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> howcome: yes.
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So publish this as LC?
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> plinss_: I think people will want a corner that is round but not 50%.
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Usually that's okay with a fixed size.
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> plinss_: I'm okay with leaving it for public feedback.
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> plinss: People will use different sizes for corners with different types of boxes. We can wait for public feedback.
# [18:52] * TabAtkins thinks that's accurate - had a hard time hearing plinss
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> plinss: Objections, or are we good for last call?
# [18:52] <sylvaing> LC! LC! LC!
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> everyone: *silence*
# [18:53] <ChrisL> Go CSS!
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Okay, go to last call.
# [18:53] * ChrisL channels "We CAN" speech
# [18:53] <fantasai> RESOLUTION: Add %ages to border-radius, scaled indep to each side
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: so add % to border-radius, scaling per side.
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> bradk: And use the same language in border-image.
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: yeah.
# [18:54] <fantasai> RESOLUTION: Publish css3-background as LC
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> plinss: five minutes left. anything that can be handled?
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Ian Jacobs? is having a talk at TPAC on developers day. If anyone would like to help me, have suggestions to talk about, let me know.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Maybe a talk about some fairly new stuff, but that's implemented in at least one browser, maybe two, just to show progress being made?
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> howcome?: LC period for multicol has ended. Not too many comments, so I've prepared some notes.
# [18:56] * sylvaing finds himself immediately off the hook every time people say 'implemented in at least one browser'. And does not like it.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> plinss_: You think you'll have that for next week?
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> howcome?: Yeah.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Okay, still have five minutes.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Have a proposal for text-overflow shrink.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We discussed that a while ago, decided to drop it.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Looks weird for last line, but I'm not actively editting CSS3 Text.
# [18:57] * TabAtkins something about dropping something from fantasai?
# [18:57] * ChrisL thinks sylvaing could fix that by, well, implementing more stuff :)
# [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:57] <fantasai> I'd probably drop features rather than add them at this point, to try to stabilize what's there
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Bert: We do need to get the vertical text out, but stretching the last line of the block is very common.
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Bert: I was at a book fair and all the high-end printing used that.
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Last line of the block? Or all lines?
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> Bert: Last Line? I can't tell - it was printed on paper, so I can't see the specs. But the last line is deifnitely the same line length as the previous.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> ?: One way of doing that is adjusting the spaces. Another way that is useful for headers is to increase the font size.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> Bert: It's very common to see either spacing out or changing the size.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> ?: I think we tried to do this, but a certain implementor reacted negatively, saying it would bring us into unspecified situations.
# [18:59] * TabAtkins has to stop scribing. Can someone take over?
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> BradK: When I was doing print, i would often use horizontal scaling to squeeze things onto one line.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> BradK: I found that less objectionable than changing the whole height.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I can see it making sense for *one* line, or for *all* lines, but it seems strange for the paragraph to be one size and the last line being differenet.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> ?: I agree. For headings it makees sense where you stretch it out, and the second line is a different size.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> plinss_: Out of time, we'll take this up later.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -sylvaing
# [19:00] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:00] <Zakim> -Simon
# [19:00] * dsinger bye!
# [19:00] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
# [19:00] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:00] <Zakim> -arronei
# [19:00] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:01] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:01] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
# [19:01] <Zakim> -David_Baron
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were TabAtkins, sylvaing, dsinger, plinss, glazou, fantasai, CesarAcebal, Bert, bradk, Chris, David_Baron, Chris.a, +1.617.588.aaaa, ChrisL, SteveZ, arronei
# [19:01] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
# [19:02] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> Okay, can someone get me the link to the records?
# [19:03] <Bert> rrsagent, pointer?
# [19:03] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-CSS-irc#T17-03-41
# [19:03] <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
# [19:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-CSS-minutes.html Bert
# [19:03] <Bert> rrsagent, make logs public
# [19:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Bert
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> Excellent. I'll have minutes later today.
# [19:07] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@193.51.208.72) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> At least I'm getting decent at picking out Bert. Dunno why his accent sounds french to me.
# [19:10] * Quits: plinss_ (plinss@76.93.139.22) (Quit: plinss_)
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# [19:23] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
# [19:25] <TabAtkins> I've still got a handful of unresolved ? speakers right at the end. Can anyone help?
# [19:43] <ChrisL> Meeting: CSS WG telcon
# [19:43] <ChrisL> s/?: I think we tried/howcome: I think we tried
# [19:44] <ChrisL> s/?: One way /howcome: One way
# [19:44] <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
# [19:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-CSS-minutes.html ChrisL
# [19:47] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
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# [21:04] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:04] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 08 00:00:00 2009

The end :)