/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-10-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 08 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:02] <fantasai> Bert: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-border-radius
  4. # [00:06] <Bert> It doesn't answer the question I asked on IRC during the telcon: does 'border-radius: 40%' create a quarter circle or is it the same as 'border-radius: 40% / 40%'? :-)
  5. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Ah, you mean "If there is no slash, then the values set both radii equally." is ambiguous?
  6. # [00:07] <Bert> Minor: the word "length" should be removed from a few occurrences in the the first para. It is not necerrily a length any more.
  7. # [00:08] <Bert> Yes, equal percentage? or equal value?
  8. # [00:09] <Bert> Also: computed value is probably "absolute length or specified percentage"
  9. # [00:10] <Bert> Hmm, not literally that, but something like it, in plural.
  10. # [00:12] <Bert> I think I prefer to make a single percentage make a quarter circle (and the percentage is a percentage of the width). You can always add a second percentage to refer to the height, but you cannot otherwise get a quarter circle.
  11. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> That's really confusing, imo.
  12. # [00:18] <Bert> What's more confusing: that 'border-radius: 1em' makes a circular arc and 'border-radius: 5%' does not? or that 'border-radius: 1em' is the same as '1em/1em', and '5%' is not the same as '5%/5%'?
  13. # [00:19] <Bert> I think it makes little difference, but the latter is more powerful.
  14. # [00:20] <Bert> (On the other hand, why anybody would use percentages, apart from 50%, I can't imagine. It makes the corner unpredictable and different for each box and/or each window size.)
  15. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> The latter is more confusing to me. The former seems sensical; all the border-radius components are 1em, or 5%.
  16. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> You thinking what I'm thinking, Bert?
  17. # [00:21] <Bert> Non-circular corners are very rare.
  18. # [00:22] <Bert> Eh, not sure. What are you thinking?
  19. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> % always refers to width, but border-radius can take a keyword value instead of its list of numbers, with only one current keyword - 'oval'.
  20. # [00:23] <Bert> I had that thought, yes. It's simple. But are we sure that's really the only case Håkon needs?
  21. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure. I know it's by far the most *common* case in what Hakon needs.
  22. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> We'd have to ask him if that's sufficient.
  23. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Of course, we also have to make sure it works for border-image.
  24. # [00:26] <Bert> You mean: Brad may have a different case in mind where he needs percentages?
  25. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and I agree with him that the two cases should work the same.
  26. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> So lock Hakon and Brad in a room and let them hash it out.
  27. # [00:29] <Bert> Well, in that case it's easier to just keep the percentages. :-)
  28. # [00:29] <Bert> (After we remove the ambiguity of a single percentage.)
  29. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Bah. Surely international travel costs can be justified! This is SCIENCE we're talking about here!
  30. # [00:33] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.184.118)
  31. # [00:42] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Actually, it's ENGINEERING
  32. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Still a discipline of SCIENCE.
  33. # [00:42] <fantasai> Nope
  34. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> http://wearscience.com/
  35. # [00:43] <fantasai> Engineering uses knowledge to pursue design. Science uses design to pursue knowledge.
  36. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> These pitiful details interest me not. I'm off to SCIENCE something!
  37. # [00:44] <fantasai> heh
  38. # [00:49] <fantasai> Bert: ok, fixed the length->value thing
  39. # [00:49] <fantasai> Bert: also tried clarifying that the second percentage is copied form the first
  40. # [00:54] <Bert> So no way to make a circular arc with percentages then?
  41. # [00:54] <fantasai> as the spec currently stands, no
  42. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Well, is there a use for that outside of lozenges? (Boxes with half-circles)
  43. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Because lozenges can be done no problem with the giant length hack.
  44. # [00:56] * fantasai looks forward to css4-background, where we can have border-corner-shape: slanted
  45. # [00:57] <Bert> The word lozenge is ambiguous. Like Håkon, I interpreted it at first as diamond, not as pill-shaped.
  46. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Mac-style buttons, then. ^_^
  47. # [01:00] <Bert> The question can be reversed: is there a use for corners whose shape varies with the height of the box, but are not quarter circles?
  48. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> You mean beyond ovals?
  49. # [01:02] <Bert> Yes, I mean that the x radius stays constant while the y radius varies with the height of a box. (Because boxes vary much more often in height than in width.)
  50. # [01:02] <fantasai> I can imagine wanting percentages against the height for things like buttons
  51. # [01:02] <fantasai> that tend to vary more by width
  52. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Nod.
  53. # [01:02] <fantasai> or tabs
  54. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Buttons tend to be squat and vary in width, as opposed to the average CSS box.
  55. # [01:03] <fantasai> In that case you'd put a percentage agains the height and a fixed length against the width
  56. # [01:03] <fantasai> I think we'll see that a lot for tabs, actually, now that I think about it
  57. # [01:05] <Bert> But other than what may be common or not, my main argument is that taking a single percentage to mean equal radiuses gives more funcionality. You can always write two perentages, but you cannot otherwise get circular arcs.
  58. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> I agree that it offers more functionality; that can't be argued. I'm arguing that that's confusing, and think that the extra power granted by it isn't enough to offset this confusion.
  59. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> (And, just for clarification, you can't get circular arcs *that are based on a percentage other than 50% of min(width,height)*.)
  60. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> (As the giant-length hack can give you the 50% case.)
  61. # [01:07] <Bert> My first thought was that it was confusing that a single value did *not* give me equal radii on all sides. By now I don't know what's confusing anymore. It's all equally non-memorable. :-(
  62. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, possibly. Push to %h and %w units, and we'll be dandy.
  63. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> s/to/for/
  64. # [01:08] <fantasai> we don't need %h and %w units
  65. # [01:08] <fantasai> we just need some keywords
  66. # [01:08] <fantasai> border-radius: 50% width
  67. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> And the lack of a keyword indicates that the % refers to the correct side in context?
  68. # [01:09] <fantasai> right
  69. # [01:09] <Bert> Why do you say that you can't get circular except with 50%? In my interpretation of single percentages, *every* single percentage gives circular arcs.
  70. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> (Yeah, %h and %w are a horrible idea anyway, as they'd make circular dependencies ridiculously easy.)
  71. # [01:09] <fantasai> you have to pick something to reference
  72. # [01:09] <fantasai> either width or height
  73. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Bert: I mean in my/Hakon's proposal, you can't get circular % arcs besides 50%.
  74. # [01:15] <Bert> Fantasai, will you fix the computed value row as well?
  75. # [01:16] <Bert> Anyway, it's well past bedtime for me. I'll check the damage tomorrow. :-)
  76. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Night, Bert.
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  78. # [01:39] <fantasai> ok
  79. # [01:39] <fantasai> Thanks Bert :)
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The end :)