/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2009-10-14 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 14 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #css
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# [06:43] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group discussion'
# [06:43] * Set by fantasai on Wed Sep 02 17:56:17
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# [08:44] * Attempting to rejoin channel #css
# [08:44] * Rejoined channel #css
# [08:44] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group discussion'
# [08:44] * Set by fantasai on Wed Sep 02 17:56:17
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# [17:12] * glazou is now known as glazou_busy
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# [17:12] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
# [17:12] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/14-CSS-irc
# [17:12] <glazou_busy> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:12] <Zakim> ok, glazou_busy; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 48 minutes
# [17:12] <glazou_busy> Zakim, code ?
# [17:12] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou_busy
# [17:41] * glazou_busy is now known as glazou
# [17:41] <glazou> hmmm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/ does not work for me...
# [17:42] <anne2> I can't call in today it seems
# [17:42] <anne2> I worked a few days on the CSSOM, but not a lot to report just yet: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/
# [17:43] <glazou> ok
# [17:43] <glazou> OMG lists.w3.org is so slow I get byte by byte
# [17:43] <anne2> oops
# [17:43] <glazou> is that caused by the new design ?
# [17:43] <glazou> people visiting too much the site to see it?
# [17:43] <glazou> hmmm
# [17:44] <glazou> anne, can you reach the url above ?
# [17:44] <glazou> anne2: or better can you do me favor ? send me back by email this week's agenda ; my mac is being repaired and I don't have the agenda and cannot reach it on w3.org :(
# [17:45] <TabAtkins> I can get to it fine, glazou.
# [17:45] <glazou> uuu
# [17:45] <glazou> weird
# [17:45] <glazou> anyway can you send me back the email please ?
# [17:45] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [17:45] <glazou> thanks
# [17:46] <TabAtkins> daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com?
# [17:46] <glazou> or daniel@glazman.org
# [17:46] <glazou> thanks TabAtkins
# [17:47] <anne2> ah, my work here is done :)
# [17:47] <glazou> eh
# [17:47] <TabAtkins> Sent to the former, since it's what came up when gmail was autocompleting.
# [17:47] <glazou> np
# [17:47] <glazou> thanks again
# [17:48] <TabAtkins> np
# [17:53] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
# [17:54] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:55] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaaa
# [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
# [17:57] <plinss> zakim, +1.858.216 is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
# [17:57] <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aaaa
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +95089aacc
# [17:57] <bradk> zakim, 1.650.766 is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.766'
# [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, aacc is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:58] <bradk> Zakim, +1.650.766.5776 is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650.766.5776'
# [17:58] <bradk> zakim, +1.650.766.aaaa is me
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650.766.aaaa'
# [17:58] <bradk> hmm
# [17:58] <bradk> probably cause my phone died
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aadd
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaee
# [17:59] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aadd is me.
# [17:59] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [17:59] <bradk> Zakim, +1.650.766.aaaa is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650.766.aaaa'
# [18:00] <bradk> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
# [18:01] <bradk> zakim, 1.650.766 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.766'
# [18:01] <bradk> I give up
# [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> Zakim, who's here?
# [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, TabAtkins, +1.650.766.aaee, Bert
# [18:01] <Zakim> On IRC I see bradk, oyvind, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, MikeSmith, TabAtkins, myakura, krijnh, arronei, karl, fantasai, anne2, shepazu, szilles, plinss, Hixie, trackbot, Bert
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> There's your problem, brad.
# [18:01] <bradk> Zakim, aaee is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
# [18:01] <bradk> Finally.
# [18:02] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.207)
# [18:02] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see. On your last try to call in it finally gave you a different code.
# [18:02] <TabAtkins> I was confused.
# [18:02] <bradk> Thanks, TJ
# [18:02] <TabAtkins> np
# [18:02] <bradk> Yeah, me too.
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aaff
# [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, aaff is CesarAcebal
# [18:04] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:05] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal
# [18:05] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
# [18:06] <glazou> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
# [18:06] * ChrisL was distracted by http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F&profile=css3&usermedium=screen&warning=1&lang=en
# [18:06] <TabAtkins> glazou: Extra action items? Bert, did you send a message?
# [18:07] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> Bert: Sent 2 items. Background&Borders are scheduled for LC tomorrow. Also, what is happening with Multicol? Are we discussing comments? Do we need Hakon for that?
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> glazou: Yes, need Hakon. I think we still have on the agenda a note about floats in multicol. So we're probably not ready yet.
# [18:07] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> glazou: But we may rely on Hakon to know precisely.
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> Bert: Was just wondering if we have an overview of received comments besides the float thing.
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> glazou: suggest rely on Hakon to summarize for us.
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> glazou: No extra action items.
# [18:08] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.69)
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> glazou: First item on agenda is items for TPAC meeting.
# [18:08] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2009
# [18:08] <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
# [18:08] <Zakim> +sylvaing, arronei; got it
# [18:08] <CesarAcebal> It seems that my Skype iPhone application is having some problems today. I'll try again, this time from my computer.
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> glazou: Need proposals as soon as possible so we can schedule things.
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: Request from dsinger to have someone from CSSWG to attend HTMLWG Accessiblitity meeting on Sunday before TPAC.
# [18:09] <ChrisL> I will be at that workshop
# [18:09] <Bert> Stanford
# [18:09] <ChrisL> stanford
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: Located in Stanford, not the hotel.
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: Asked Dave to reply on information for that.
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: I'll be able to attend in the morning, but probably not in the afternoon.
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: There's a registration for that, but no fee.
# [18:09] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [18:10] <Bert> (I'm arriving too late on Sunday, unfortunately.)
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> glazou: When we know precisely when it is, we should decide who will attend.
# [18:10] <Zakim> +??P13
# [18:10] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> glazou: Please enter suggestions for TPAC for the FtF meeting.
# [18:10] * Joins: howcome (howcome@213.236.208.247)
# [18:11] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> glazou: Only one line on the wiki page for the moment.
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> glazou: Back to Bert's question, about multicol draft.
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> glazou: Where do we stand on comments?
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> Hakon: We stand at a good point. LC ended on Oct 1st.
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> Hakon: We had comments from 3 or 4 people.
# [18:12] <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisL (9%), CesarAcebal (5%), ??P13 (95%)
# [18:12] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:12] <ChrisL> zakim, mute Cesar
# [18:12] <Zakim> CesarAcebal should now be muted
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> Hakon: From Alex and Sylvain in the WG, and from Giovanni outside the WG.
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Don't think there are any hard issues to deal with, but would like to resolve them today if I can have like 15 minutes.
# [18:13] * ChrisL thinks it's Hakon's connection
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> Hakon: For example, the name of the draft. The current name is -----. Should we update the name of the draft?
# [18:13] <Bert> zakim, ??P13 is howcome
# [18:13] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
# [18:14] <Zakim> -howcome
# [18:14] * sylvaing text-replace: 'IP phone', 'landline';
# [18:14] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:14] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:14] <ChrisL> I'd like some time during today's telcon to discuss, among other
# [18:14] <ChrisL> things, the name of the document. Today it's called
# [18:14] <ChrisL> CSS3 module: Multi-column layout
# [18:14] <ChrisL> should we call it
# [18:14] <ChrisL> CSS Multi-column Layout Module Level 3
# [18:14] <ChrisL> instead? (that's a long name)
# [18:14] * Bert thinks that software wasn't balancing sound quality and bandwidth correctly...
# [18:14] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute cesar
# [18:14] <Zakim> CesarAcebal should no longer be muted
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> glazoue: Hakon proposed to rename from "CSS3 module: Multi-column layout" to " CSS Multi-column Layout Module Level 3".
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Do we have a naming convention?
# [18:15] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aagg
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> Bert: We appear to be moving toward the latter pattern.
# [18:15] <ChrisL> zakim, +47 is howcome
# [18:15] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> Zakim, mute howcome
# [18:16] <Zakim> howcome should now be muted
# [18:16] * TabAtkins Man, hakon is just having bad luck on the call.
# [18:16] * sylvaing the Microsoft Anti-Hakon Shield satellite is now enabled...
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think the new name really describes the intent of the module.
# [18:16] <glazou> Zakim, unmute howcome
# [18:16] <Zakim> howcome should no longer be muted
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> Zakim, unmute howcome.
# [18:17] <Zakim> howcome was not muted, TabAtkins
# [18:17] * Bert thinks it's fine as long as Håkon talks. He should not stop talking :-)
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> Hakon: The problem with level 3 is that there is no level 1 or 2 with multicol layout. So calling it "level 3" is a little misleading.
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> Zakim, mute howcome
# [18:17] <Zakim> howcome should now be muted
# [18:17] * Bert noise! :-(
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> Wow.
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute howcome
# [18:18] <Zakim> howcome should no longer be muted
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> zakim, mute howcome
# [18:18] <Zakim> howcome should now be muted
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> glazou: I have no opinion. I think it's a minor issue. What do other people thing?
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> ?: That's what we usually call it in speech.
# [18:18] <ChrisL> +1 for new name
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> glazou: No objections?
# [18:18] <Bert> s/?/Bert/
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> Zakim, unmute howcome
# [18:19] <Zakim> howcome should no longer be muted
# [18:19] * Bert thinks the button is mislabeled: Mute -> Noise :-)
# [18:19] <Zakim> -howcome
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> glazou: Any non-editorial changes?
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Yes, I need 5 more minutes.
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> glazou: Do we have anything we can discuss until Hakon is back?
# [18:20] <Zakim> +Michael
# [18:21] <plinss> zakim, Michael is howcome
# [18:21] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Other feedback - one commenter said that we lacked requirements for colors in the gap.
# [18:21] <glazou> urgh
# [18:21] * TabAtkins Hakon, do you think you could scribe yourself?
# [18:22] <howcome> Giovanni is asking for a "color profile" of multicol with relaxed requiements
# [18:22] <howcome> I think a profile is too much work
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> glazou: Why is he asking for that?
# [18:22] <howcome> there are relaxed requirements in the multicol draft
# [18:23] <howcome> it refers to css3 colors, but says that implementors only hav to support css2
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think this will be extremely confusing for web authors.
# [18:23] <howcome> I don't want to require support for css3 colors in order to support multicol layout
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Surely it's a conformance class; it shouldn't require a whole new profile.
# [18:24] <ChrisL> surely that is a conformance clause, not a whole new profile
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> szilles: Why does the draft refer to css3 colors if people don't want to support it?
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> Hakon: We have to refer to *something* for the color property in the column gap.
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> szilles: Is CSS2 not enough?
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> Hakon: It's eneough for me.
# [18:24] <howcome> column-rule-color needs a reference
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> szilles: So is it just an issue of which to refer to?
# [18:25] <anne2> (don't most browsers support css3-color nowadays?)
# [18:25] <sylvaing> why wouldn't CSS3 color be OK there ?
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Yes.
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> glazou: When CSS3 colors becomes a rec, will that automatically update the multicol draft up to css3 colors?
# [18:25] <howcome> This property sets the color of the column rule. The <color> values are defined in [CSS3COLOR].
# [18:25] <howcome> Conforming user agents are only required to support the subset of color values defined in [CSS21].
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> ?: Yeah, we don't want to do special-casing of color models for particular properties.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> glazou: I suppose that they'll expand the value-space of colors supported by CSS3 colors.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> szilles: Wont' that be put into the snapshot of what needs to be implemented?
# [18:26] <Bert> s/?/Sylvain/
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> szilles: This is a general problem for specs. For conformance and testing you have to pick one for everyone to do.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> glazou: But CSS3 colors isn't a rec for the moment.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> szilles: So the only thing that multicol *can* call for is 2.1.
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> szilles: So that hits the issue of how we are updating specs in a modular fashion.
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> szilles: If we were doing the specs in lockstep, this wouldn't be a problem.
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> szilles: so my suggestion is that, in a snapshot, say "the following specs that refer to XXX color spec now refer to YYY color spec".
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> Hakon: I think the current text is okay. Do you want me to change it?
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Yeah, why not just say that the color values are defined in CSS2.1 and that's it?
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If someone supports css3 colors now, surely they'll support those colors *everywhere*?
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> Sylvain: Sure, but what if there's a fix for something? You don't want to support something that's been proven to be wrong.
# [18:29] <sylvaing> Tab, that was Hakon I think :)
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> glazou: A possiblity: we say that your module depends on css2.1 color, and leave up for implements to use css3 color.
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> szilles: And sometime in th future, we can update via a snapshot to css3 color officially.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> Hakon: So what do we say in multicol? Define it as css2.1 and say it will automatically upgrade to css3 when it becomes a rec?
# [18:30] <ChrisL> Just say it uses a <color>
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> glazou: No, just say nothing. Otherwise it requires testing. We'll just update the spec when css3 colors moves up to rec.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> szilles: Or a new snapshot.
# [18:30] * anne2 thinks it would be nice to have a latest version/level link for each profile
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> ?: Aren't we doing a lot of work? Updating a spec that's a rec is hard.
# [18:31] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
# [18:31] <glazou> s/?/sylvaing
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> szilles: If you want a Rec you need conformance, and you need something clear. You can't make "automatic" clear.
# [18:31] <Zakim> + +1.650.924.aahh
# [18:31] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
# [18:31] <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to David_Baron
# [18:31] <glazou> hi dbaron
# [18:31] <dbaron> Zakim, aahh is David_Baron
# [18:31] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
# [18:31] <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
# [18:31] <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> szilles: Important part of conformance is that the part that *is* in thee language is done in an interop way.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Agreed, but don't think we should leave it open. We should make it clear that you could do rgba or not.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> ?: If you say CSS2.1, it would be clear.
# [18:32] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
# [18:32] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2009/10/14-CSS-irc#T16-32-47
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: But you are. Just say <color>, and then when CSS3 color comes up it will allow it.
# [18:32] * dbaron RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:32] * RRSAgent I have made the request, dbaron
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> Hakon: No, you have to refer to <color> from a specific spec.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> glazou: I don't think implementors will use different color specs in their implementation.
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Exactly, so I don't want to leave it undecided.
# [18:33] <Zakim> -bradk
# [18:33] <Bert> Thinking about: "At the time of publication, <color> was defined by [CSS21]."
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> szilles: So this isn't an issue with multicol, it's an issue about how to resolve linked specs. It may require an FtF.
# [18:33] <Zakim> +bradk
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> Sylvain?: Someething about CSS2 being a subset of css3 color.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> ?: Since css3 is a clear superset of css2.1, I think we can take the dependency.
# [18:34] <ChrisL> s/?:/Steve:/
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> szilles: I understand, but I'd rather solve the general problem and then apply that, so we're not left with someething we don't like.
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> plinss: Can't we just say "the current <color> defined by CSS"?
# [18:35] <Zakim> + +00100100aaii
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> glazou: No, because then we'll have to change tests, testing on 2.1 first and then 3 later when color updates.
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> szilles: People can't ever decide which things they implement, because the ruls change.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> plinss: If color level 3 is a rec, and multicol is a rec, nobody's going to implement multicol with color level 2.
# [18:36] <anne2> szilles, fwiw, we're usually pretty clear on what we want to implement :)
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> Hakon: We could avoid referring to anything, and just say that it takes the same values that are taken by color:.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> glazou: Steve, would that work for you?
# [18:36] <anne2> szilles, though it seems that often specifications change halfway :/
# [18:37] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
# [18:37] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> glazou: That would probably require writing tests, not for CSS2.1, but for CSS3 colors. If we start writing tests for 2.1 and css3 colors move along the rec track, we'll miss tests.
# [18:37] <Bert> "the same as 'color'" is a testable statement :-) Even if you don't know what the range of values is....
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> Hakon: I'm not worried about people **something** things here.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> Hakon: I'm not too worried about people screwing up implmntations here.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> plinss: I accept that this is a geneeral problem with any inter-module dependency, and it merits further discussion.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> Sylvain: I agree, and let's do what peter suggested and just write tests for css3 colors.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Actually, dont' we aclready have a good css3 color test suite and pretty much done?
# [18:39] <Zakim> -bradk
# [18:39] <Zakim> +bradk
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm still unhappy with what I'm hearing, because I don't think it makes a clear statement of what's expected of a conforming implementation, and whether a conforming impl is allowed to exceed the spec.
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> glazou: What would you say?
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> szilles: I'd have the spec say that it should implement css2.1 color, and I'm fine with being silent on further.
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> szilles: We have to ask ourselves if we're happy with impls going beyond the spec.
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> szilles: I want to adopt a criteria to test for. I think we all agree on practical issues, I just want it clear what needs to be tested at this moment.
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> glazou: Other opinions?
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> fantasai: As far as testing goes, we do have a n/a category in our test implementations.
# [18:41] * sylvaing definitely needs to schedule a lot of f2f drinking with Tab at TPAC to ensure reliable voice recognition
# [18:41] <ChrisL> yup, we could make css3 color support an optional feature, and use 'not applicable' as needed
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If we included the tests for multicol, we'd have two tests - one which uses css2.1 color and one with css3 color. An impl that uses one or the other would write "n/a" for the other.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> glazou: Yeah, that's what I suggest. Point at 2.1 for now, and update in the future.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> szilles: So if I had two implementations, one which implements 2.1 and one does 3, which is conforming?
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> glazou: I disagree with "not interoprable". The spec says to do 2.1 until we move it with a snapshot.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> szilles: I think we really just need to decide how modularization works. This is only one example.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm less concerned about the way it comes, as long as it's cleear what conformance means. That's what a lot of people care about.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> glazou: Agree, and I think that if we don't establish clear guidelins for the tests, we'll have remarks from the w3c staff.
# [18:43] * myakura wonders if we can stay with CSS2 for now and have a PER once the color module is done.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> glazou: My suggestion is to write css2.1 in th prose, but prepare css3 colors so we're ready. That way we're clear, but can move forward in thee future.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> glazou: Let's reserve some time at TPAC to discuss modularization.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm happy with that.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Sounds good.
# [18:44] <fantasai> s/prepare/prepare tests with/
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> glazou: Objections? --no objections--
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Hakon: One more item. Sylvain's commeent.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Hakon: It's regarding the rule between columns. How far down/up should wee go?
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Hakon: say you ahve 2 columns with images at the bottom, but there's not space, so they're moved to the next column.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Hakon: The spec kind of says there will be a rule where there is content.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Hakon: So is there content when something is moved?
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Hakon: The issue is if there is "content" based on layout, or based on where content is put?
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Sylvain: I looked at newspapers, and it seems that when there is a column rulee, it spans the size of the box, not the size of the content.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Yes, and also there *could* have been content there.
# [18:46] * sylvaing that was Daniel....
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Hakon: But I think that visually it makes sense to not have a rule there.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> Hakon: I think it often goes too low because of the line-height. I think it should only go as low as the lowest baseline.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> szilles: Dos that mean if i have 3 columns with 2 rules between them, they can be at different heights.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> Hakon: yes.
# [18:47] <glazou> s/Sylvain/Daniel
# [18:47] <glazou> eheh
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> szilles: That sounds weird to me.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> Hakon: If we dont' have that rule, we'll have a lot of lines with whitespace next to them.
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> Hakon: Let's say you introduce a column break. Should you continue to put the rule there?
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> ?: I perfectly see your point, but how is the author going to control that?
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> ?: And that could lead to bad visual designs.
# [18:48] <Bert> s/?/glazou/
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> Hakon: No, we would *say* that we only show the rule when you have actual content.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think if you have a rule it should be the entire height of the column block.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Eeithr you have a rule or not.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I provisionally agree.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> Hakon: That's the simplest. I've been using these rules for a while, and I find that the rules are too long.
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> ?: When you split content into columns, you care much about the final result. I dont' think authors will want to have the rules be shorter.
# [18:49] * TabAtkins can't understand enough of Hakon's most recent statement to scribe.
# [18:50] <Zakim> - +00100100aaii
# [18:50] * sylvaing is not sure the Canard is the best reference. Everyone there is crazy. By design :)
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> glazou: I just looked at the latest issue of **something*, and there's whitespace in front of the columnn rule.
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm not sure quite what you're saying without examples.
# [18:50] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> glazou: I strongly disagree with your original proposal that implements *should not* render rules in front of whitespace.
# [18:51] <Bert> I agree with Håkon: rules no longer than the actual content. But: all rules must be the same length.
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> glazou: If you are going to vary this, it needs to be in control of the author.
# [18:51] <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aajj
# [18:51] * TabAtkins didn't understand Hakon again. ;_;
# [18:51] <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.aajj is [apple]
# [18:51] <Zakim> +[apple]; got it
# [18:51] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
# [18:51] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> glazou: That's all for multicol?
# [18:51] <Bert> Hakon: I will provide examples.
# [18:51] <dsinger> please come to the media accessibility workshop!
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: next on the list is text-overflow: shrink.
# [18:52] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> glazou: Ok, continued discussion. I wasn't there, so it's probably up to you to continue.
# [18:52] <fantasai> Zakim, ?P19 is fantasai
# [18:52] <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not recognize a party named '?P19'
# [18:52] <glazou> dsinger: yes i already said that to the wg
# [18:52] <dbaron> Zakim, ??P19 is fantasai
# [18:52] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:52] <glazou> dsinger: got my email about it?
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I wanted the ability to make a line of text always stretch/shrink to its box..
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So are you looking for text-overflow: shrink? Or something with justification?
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Don't really care. Can adjust size, spacing, etc.
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Sounds like justification. We can put a note into CSS3 text, but I don't think that it'll be implemented in the near future.
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> Bert: Why not? It seems necessary. I want to both stretch/shrink text, but also align the last line.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'm not talking about the last-lin property, I'm talking about shrinking/growing text.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: This shouldn't be part of text-last-align, but rather part of text-justify.
# [18:55] * sylvaing always thinks of psychiatry when people argue shrink-to-fit
# [18:55] * dsinger fearsome amounts of echo echo echo cho cho ... please mute if not speaking
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> Bert: That makes things complicated, because every line could be a different size.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, that's what you'd get.
# [18:56] * TabAtkins whoever was talking, I didn't get that.
# [18:56] <fantasai> I'm saying it should be text-justify: resize-font
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I don't think that's at all a desirable effect when you just want to align the last line.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> If you want to resize the last line, use text-align: last. We're talkinga bout shrinking text.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Would that apply with a single line?
# [18:57] <bradk> You should be able to fit a text via resizing or condensing, without changing the text-align
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes. If there's just one line it's the last line.
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Nah, text-align isn't meaningful when the text is purposely filling the whole line.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you define a min/max size, then it may not fill the whole space and the alignment will matter.
# [18:58] * TabAtkins didn't understand whoever was just talking.
# [18:58] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#justification
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Bert: A topic for the FtF?
# [18:59] <fantasai> Pick a keyword, I'll add a note to text-justify. But I'm not actively editing css3-text
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> fantasai: No, I don't think it's a high priority, because Text isn't a high-priority topic. It should be, but nobody's editting it. Will you takee it over, Bert?
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> Bert: If that's what it takes, why not?
# [18:59] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> Zakim, who's making noise?
# [19:00] <bradk> My comment was that text-overflow is the place for that, because you might want text to be centered until it got too wide, and then you resize or condense it.
# [19:00] <Zakim> TabAtkins, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (4%), howcome (65%), Bert (4%)
# [19:01] * TabAtkins Dammit, hakon. >_< ^_^
# [19:02] <fantasai> TabAtkins will come up with a keyword for text-justify, I will add it as a note to css3-text, and the next editor of css3-text can take care of it; it may or may not make it into the next draft
# [19:02] <fantasai> s/draft/official/
# [19:02] <fantasai> publication
# [19:02] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:02] * dsinger bye
# [19:02] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> glazou: That's it, and please add suggestions to the wiki page.
# [19:02] <Zakim> -David_Baron
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[apple]
# [19:02] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:02] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:02] <Zakim> -howcome
# [19:02] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
# [19:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:02] * TabAtkins Damn, why do I get so hot when I minute?
# [19:02] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.766.aaaa, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, +95089aacc, glazou, +1.281.305.aadd, +1.650.766.aaee, TabAtkins, Bert, bradk, +34.60.940.aaff, CesarAcebal, ChrisL,
# [19:02] <Zakim> ... sylvaing, arronei, SteveZ, howcome, +47.23.69.aagg, +1.650.924.aahh, David_Baron, +00100100aaii, dsinger, fantasai
# [19:02] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.207) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
# [19:03] <glazou> TabAtkins because you're stressed by voice recognition?
# [19:03] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> This seems likely.
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> But I did a lot better today!
# [19:03] <glazou> yes indeed!
# [19:04] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
# [19:04] <bradk> I'm terrible with voice recognition alone. You are brave to do the scribing, but you make me look bad.
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> It's the voice recognition that's the problem. I'm great at transcribing, and typing while I'm thinking of other things.
# [19:05] <fantasai> It took me awhile to learn all the voices, too. I relied very heavy on dbaron at first :)
# [19:06] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.69) (Ping timeout)
# [19:06] <glazou> but hey we all recognize howcome's noise without problem :-)
# [19:06] <bradk> It would be nice if Zakim could tell my IRC program to put a dot next to whoever was talking.
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> I'm almost perfect at recognizing fantasai, glazou, bert, chrisl, hakon, and szilles.
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> Everyone else is still a little hazy.
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> Luckily they talk the most.
# [19:08] <fantasai> That's probably why you recognize them best -- more practice ;)
# [19:09] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
# [19:09] <bradk> ta
# [19:09] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
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# [21:19] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:19] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
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# [23:50] <fantasai> plinss: When will you have time to set up csswg.org to host the reviewer app and source code?
# [23:56] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.73) (Ping timeout)
# Session Close: Thu Oct 15 00:00:00 2009

The end :)