/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-02-10 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Feb 10 13:41:21 2010
# Session Ident: #css
# [13:41] * Logging #css to 'http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20100210'
# [13:41] <krijnh> Oh hai
# [13:42] <krijnh> fantasai: sorry, it was broken :)
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# [17:31] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-CSS-irc
# [17:33] <glazou_sick> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:33] <Zakim> ok, glazou_sick; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
# [17:33] <glazou_sick> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou_sick
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# [17:55] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaaa
# [17:56] * Joins: dsinger_ (mobile@67.218.106.195)
# [17:56] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
# [17:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.398.aaaa
# [17:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger_, plinss, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_sick, shepazu, anne, szilles, CesarAcebal, TabAtkins, Bert, karl, Hixie, fantasai, trackbot, krijnh, Lachy, arronei
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
# [17:57] <plinss> zakim, aabb is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
# [17:57] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@98.234.211.150)
# [17:57] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
# [17:57] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to dsinger_
# [17:58] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is dsinger_
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dsinger_; got it
# [17:58] <dsinger_> Zakim, 398.aaaa is dsinger_
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not recognize a party named '398.aaaa'
# [17:58] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
# [17:58] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
# [17:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
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# [17:58] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
# [17:58] <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
# [17:58] <dsinger_> Zakim, thank you
# [17:58] <Zakim> you are very welcome, dsinger_
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +95089aacc
# [17:59] <glazou_sick> Zakim: aacc is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aadd
# [17:59] <glazou_sick> Zakim, aacc is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +glazou_sick; got it
# [17:59] <dethbakin> +1.617.650.aadd is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaee
# [17:59] <sylvaing> Zakim, aaee is sylvaing
# [17:59] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
# [18:00] * dsinger_ good morning, all
# [18:01] * Quits: dsinger_ (mobile@67.218.106.195) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
# [18:01] <Zakim> -dsinger_
# [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaff
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# [18:02] <Zakim> +dsinger_
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# [18:03] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou_sick, +1.617.650.aadd, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaff, dsinger_
# [18:03] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
# [18:03] <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
# [18:03] <plinss> zakim, aadd is dethbakin
# [18:03] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
# [18:03] <smfr> Zakim, aaff is me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
# [18:03] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
# [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou_sick, dethbakin, sylvaing, smfr, dsinger_ (muted)
# [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger_, smfr, oyvind, sylvaing, dethbakin, plinss, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_sick, shepazu, anne, szilles, CesarAcebal, TabAtkins, Bert, karl, Hixie, fantasai,
# [18:03] <Zakim> ... trackbot, krijnh, Lachy, arronei
# [18:03] <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aagg
# [18:04] <CesarAcebal> zakim, aagg is me.
# [18:04] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
# [18:04] * dsinger_ zakim, please fix at&t's network
# [18:04] * Zakim I don't understand 'please fix at&t's network', dsinger_
# [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.281.712.aahh
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# [18:04] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aahh is me.
# [18:04] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
# [18:05] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
# [18:05] <CesarAcebal> acebal@uniovi.es
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P25
# [18:05] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
# [18:05] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
# [18:05] * dbaron Zakim, ??P25 is fantasai
# [18:05] * Zakim +fantasai; got it
# [18:06] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:06] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou_sick (12%), plinss (14%), CesarAcebal (15%), Bert (19%)
# [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:06] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
# [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:06] <TabAtkins> Scribenick: TabAtkins
# [18:06] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
# [18:07] <@arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> plinss: Anything extra for the agenda?
# [18:07] * glazou_sick waves at arronei
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> Topic: CSS 2.1 test suite
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> plinss: Anything interesting?
# [18:07] * sylvaing dares not add anything to the agenda that would take over the whole meeting again :)
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Just fixing glitches in some of the publications
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> arronei: I'll send in a few more errors I found. Simple stuff.
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Any progress on metadata?
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> arronei: I started it, but got sidetracked.
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I put up documentation on reftests on the wiki: what it is, how to write one
# [18:08] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There no reftests in the alpha right now, because there's no sensical indexing method right now.
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Plan for the next day or two is to list everything that's wrong with build scripts so we can fix them.
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Since we can't have reftests at the moment, should we still be making them?
# [18:09] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes, it's a good format, and we'll get it published.
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaii
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> fantasai: You can write a test that is both a reftest and a self-describing test.
# [18:10] <plinss> zakim, aaii is bradk
# [18:10] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
# [18:10] * dbaron Zakim, aaii is bradk
# [18:10] * Zakim sorry, dbaron, I do not recognize a party named 'aaii'
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> plinss: Anything else in the test suite?
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> Topic: FtF - reconfirming dates
# [18:11] <dsinger_> Yes
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> plinss: Current have March 29 - 31. Still the plan?
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I thought that one was fine, but the *next* one had a request to change it?
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, we did.
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I wanted it on the agenda so the SVGWG would know about the firm date we have.
# [18:12] <dsinger_> zakim, unmute dsinger_
# [18:12] <Zakim> dsinger_ should no longer be muted
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> dsinger_: How do I get the official announcement out about location/suggestion to stay? How do I get peopel to announce they're coming so I can arrange everything?
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Just do a ??? form, it's easy. And you'll be on the CC list so you'll see when people register.
# [18:13] <dbaron> s/??? form/WBS form/
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Or just email the WG and say "respond if you're coming".
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: If you could publish a list of hotels asap, it would help.
# [18:13] * sylvaing free iPads !
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> plinss: There's a page on the w3c server with a bunch of pertinent information from previous meetings.
# [18:13] <glazou_sick> sylvaing: you can dream :)
# [18:13] <smfr> sylvaing: bring your cheque book
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> dsinger_: I assume it'll be a small enough group we can do lunch in the cafeteria.
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Sounds fine.
# [18:14] * sylvaing woo hoo !
# [18:14] * sylvaing was caught checking on his ipad shipment in a meeting...using Chrome
# [18:14] * sylvaing imac i mean
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> plinss: and if we do a joint meeting with SVG, can you handle that on site?
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> dsinger_: How many people are likely to join us?
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I think Doug said the SVGWG was fairly small, maybe 6-7 people
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> dsinger_: Ok.
# [18:15] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> plinss: Do we want to set the 31st as the joint meeting?
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I suggest we ask the SVGWG what's most convenient.
# [18:15] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
# [18:15] <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
# [18:15] <TabAtkins> plinss: We're okay with dedicating one day of our meeting?
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Yes, I think so.
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> plinss: Elika, can you set up a wiki page for the agenda, so we can start posting suggested topics?
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Will do.
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> Topic: Richard Ishida editor for ruby
# [18:16] <TabAtkins> several: in favor
# [18:16] <sylvaing> very in favor
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Not only would he be a good editor, but he'll make tests and write tutorials and such.
# [18:17] * Quits: dsinger_ (mobile@67.218.106.195) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Does Richard know about it? ^_^
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Is the ruby spec on dev.w3.org, or doees it need to be moved?
# [18:17] * Joins: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.236)
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> Bert: I think it's already there, but he knows how to move it if necessary.
# [18:18] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/cupertino-2010
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I'm sure he doesn't have a huge patent portfolio, but still, might as well have him join.
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> Resolved: Richard Ishida will be editor of CSS Ruby spec.
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> Topic: Doug Shepers about deprecating DOMActivate event
# [18:19] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010JanMar/0009.html
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> plinss: Shepers sent an email a while back.
# [18:19] <dbaron> s/Shepers/Schepers/g
# [18:19] * TabAtkins Argh, indeed. I misspell his name *every time*.
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: How does that affect CSS directly? Are there any pseudoclass defs that explicitly mention DOMActivate?
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> plinss: There's a note about a potential issue with the :active pseudoclass.
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> plinss: But I don't believe it's the same concept.
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> plinss: Not hearing any objections, so I assume we should just say "Go for it"?
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> Resolved: approve deprecating DOMActivate
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> Topic: CSS3 values
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> plinss: One thing we were etalking about is accepting scinot in numbers
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: That relates to a response I made about the style attribute.
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> plinss: And they were saying it would be nice to accept scinot across the board rather than special-casing it for SVG.
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: I agree. Special-casing is harder to work than just doing it everywhere.
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> plinss: There were some questions about precision, and roundtripping, and so on. I think it makes sense to allow scinot across the board.
# [18:22] <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't see why we need scinot in, say, typography.
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> plinss: It will probably come in handy in transforms.
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I don't quite see the use-case either.
# [18:23] * sylvaing no that wasn't me
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> plinss: Do you see sufficient harm in including it?
# [18:23] * sylvaing think it was howcome
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> s/sylvaing/howcome/
# [18:23] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> howcome: There's a compatibility issue. Can someone point me to a use-case?
# [18:24] <dbaron> In CSS1 and CSS2, '3.6e-10' is a dimension, where '3.6' is the number and 'e-10' is the unit :-)
# [18:24] * glazou_sick TabAtkins hey that was a norwegian accent, not french ;-)
# [18:24] <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aajj
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> smfr: [Gives example with transformations]
# [18:24] <dsinger> zakiom aajj is [apple]
# [18:24] * TabAtkins Man, all you europeans sound the same.
# [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
# [18:24] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '[apple]'
# [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, aajj is [Apple]
# [18:24] * Zakim +[Apple]; got it
# [18:24] * glazou_sick lol
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> howcome: What does this look like? 2.6e4 or the like?
# [18:24] <TabAtkins> smfr: Yes.
# [18:24] * dbaron Zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
# [18:24] * Zakim +dsinger; got it
# [18:24] * sylvaing glazou, he's from TX, everyone sounds foreign to him.
# [18:25] * glazou_sick laughs and hides
# [18:25] <Zakim> -dsinger_
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> howcome: The notation has nothing to do with the precision. It has to do with what people type. I don't think people have to type e4 or whateveer.
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Are you going to object?
# [18:25] <TabAtkins> howcome: I'm not going to object *yet*, but I'm not sure of the use-case.
# [18:25] * TabAtkins Hrm, I may have gotten some of howcome and bert mixed up.
# [18:25] <dbaron> It also means reading things like '2.6e4em'
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> plinss: The only thing it really precludes is us ever having a unit named "e".
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Or starting with e and followed by numeric characters.
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> howcome: My issue is really readability. I don't think it's intuitive.
# [18:26] * sylvaing this better come to a prompt conclusion or I'm adding corner gradients to the agenda !
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> plinss: The use-case isn't really when it's like 2.6e-4, it's like 2.6e-30, which is way easier to read than .00000...26
# [18:27] <TabAtkins> bert?: In what cases is that not 0?
# [18:28] <dsinger> is allowing scientific notation *harmful*?
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> plinss: In matrix transforms it's not equivalent.
# [18:28] <dsinger> it may be unusual, but does that matter?
# [18:28] * fantasai doesn't really care, but thinks it's unfortunate that SVG-derived properties and CSS properties have different allowed syntaxes
# [18:28] * smfr hopes that this topic doesn't take the rest of the call
# [18:29] * dsinger wonders who doesn't have a scientific notation parser
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: We've already had apple and mozilla already say they want to do it to harmonize CSS and SVG.
# [18:29] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Core Breach)
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> [argument about readability of scinot]
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: We have a way of writing large numbers. When you get large enough it's no longer comfortable to use normal numbers.
# [18:30] <dbaron> I'd note there were a few fun (though far from insurmountable) issues with implementing scientific notation (see Mozilla bug 302971): it requires more pushback in the tokenizer than anything else does (with the possible exception of URL, depending on how you implement it); according to SVG it's only allowed for <number> and not <integer>;
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: My problem is that SVG and CSS have two different syntaxes. I don't care about the details as much.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Proposal is to add scinot to values in CSS.
# [18:30] <dbaron> If my memory is correct, the issue with SVG and CSS accepting different syntaxes applies only to SVG attributes and not actually CSS in SVG.
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If it's an issue with SVG attributes only, I don't think it's as much of an issue.
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: No, you can do things like put it in a style attribute, and it's weird for people to mix it with normal CSS and not be able to use notation broadly.
# [18:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: But if it's not there yet, it's not an issue yet.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It is there yet. The problem is that the Style Attribute spec now disallows it, but before it was allowed to mix the notations.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It's a blocking issue for SVG.
# [18:32] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: 1) allow it everywhere, anywhere there's a number 2) disallow it
# [18:33] * TabAtkins didn't catch that there weree ethree separate things
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Anywhere there's a number, or numbers and dimensions
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> dbaron: There's 3 things: number, integer, and dimension. SVG doesn't allow it for integer, but doees for the other two.
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If CSS wants to allow it for all 3, I'd be willing to take a change request back to SVG to harmonize it.
# [18:33] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I'd rather avoid it for integers.
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: 1) Allow it only where it's permitted. 2) Allow it where SVG does. 3) Disallow it.
# [18:34] * dbaron didn't follow (1), at least as Tab minuted it
# [18:34] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: ONly allow it where the individual property says it's allowed. Second option is to allow it everywhere that takes a number/dimension.
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: In favor of 2
# [18:35] <dbaron> (1) is allow it when the property says it's permitted, and (2) is allowing it for all <number> / <dimension>
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: 2 for me as well
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> plinss: 2
# [18:35] <sylvaing> 2
# [18:35] <bradk> 1
# [18:35] <TabAtkins> smfr, tabatking: 2
# [18:35] <@arronei> 2
# [18:35] <dbaron> I think if we allow it we should do (2).
# [18:35] * dsinger I support smfr and dethbakin
# [18:36] * fantasai doubles dbaron's vote
# [18:36] <bradk> 2 is OK with me, but I think 1 would be more intuitive
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> howcome: I don't think we should allow it. I think it's more readable and easier to parse.
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> howcome: 3
# [18:36] <Bert> 3 (It's just too costly, there are tons of implementations of CSS...)
# [18:36] <dethbakin> 2
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Brad, would you be happy with 2?
# [18:37] <dbaron> s/tabatking/tabatkins/
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> bradk: 2 is fine
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: This is for css3 only, right?
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: It would be for css3 only, but currently the style attribute for *any* language says you must align with css2.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We'll deal with that separately.
# [18:37] <TabAtkins> Bert: What do you mean "css3 only"? This is a grammar question, not a property question.
# [18:38] <sylvaing> so we are implicitly OK with 'new' style sheets tripping up older UAs right ? since the new values will not be limited to new features such as transforms...
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> fantasai: What I mean is, I'm strongly against changing the css2.1 grammar to allow scinot. I want it in a new css3 grammar.
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> Bert: The grammar in css2.1 says it's *the* grammar for CSS.
# [18:38] <fantasai> s/ want/'m ok with/
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Right, the forward-compatible grammar allows it, css2.1 will disallow it. We've had those problems before.
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> Bert: No, we only have 1 *core* grammar.
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Once you make the change you'll have UAs failing stylesheets with the new value.
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, but that happens with any new property. Legacy UAs will just drop that property.
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I hate to point it out, but IE6 is still out there.
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> Bert: There are other implementations.
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: I don't like that the first SVG harmonization effort is sidetracked by a large discussion over this small issue.
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's not small.
# [18:41] <fantasai> and it's not the first
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Still not seeing why this is any differenet from a new property being dropped in legacy UAs.
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: It's not just new properties. I could do width:100e1px and have it ignored in old browsers. Is that fine?
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> howcome: Is this change worth what you get back from it?
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> howcome: This is a huge change in the core, and I don't see that it's worth it.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: If you look at new pages using transformations, it's a big deal.
# [18:43] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Are we saying that Apple should go home with it's transitions spec because it requires us redefining the value of "number"?
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> howcome: It's a change for *everywhere*, though. It's a huge change, and I don't think it's worth it for everything.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So you want it only for the properties that specifically need it?
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> howcome: I think that's a more reasonable proposition.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: You'll have to look at a property when you parse a number?
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Bert: You have to do that already, like with an+b
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Right, but it doesn't require you to look at the context.
# [18:45] * TabAtkins sylvain, or glazou?
# [18:45] <glazou_sick> glazou
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Bert: You can say in the grammar that we can find a specific use-case for that property.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So you're proposal, Bert, is to change SVG to something new so you don't have to change CSS?
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Bert: SVG is an xml spec, css isn't.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Then I'll take that back to the SVG, and we'll drop saying that the style attribute spec is for SVG.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> dsinger: I think the objection is "scinot is ugly and I don't want to see it".
# [18:47] <fantasai> Bert: That's one objection, the main one is that it requires changing the core grammar
# [18:47] * TabAtkins thanks, fantasai.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: All the UAs that handle SVG *already* handle the notation.
# [18:48] * sylvaing sci-notation: auto;
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If particular-property is required, that's okay. But we can't just say something new that requires changing all of SVG.
# [18:49] <fantasai> glazou says something about millions of users
# [18:49] <fantasai> howcome: Nobody's asking for scinot in the width property.
# [18:49] <sylvaing> i understand that the new notation can be used as a css level hack. (I raised it). but if the alternative is property-specific grammar and preserving arbitrary differences between SVG and CSS, it's a risk worth taking imo
# [18:49] <fantasai> howcome: If it's per-property, then that's easier to swallow
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> [discussion about required stability of the grammar]
# [18:50] <glazou_sick> The Keepers of The Temple are back
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> howcome: Bert points out that the Core Grammar has been stable, it's one of the core pillars. You need really good arguments to change it, and I haven't seen them.
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Where do we go from here? 9 votes for option 2, 2 votes for option 3. There's a lot hanging on this. Changing the CSS grammar, or requiring SVG to use a slightly different Style Attribute with subtle differences.
# [18:51] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Is this something we want to discuss ftf?
# [18:52] <glazou_sick> CesarAcebal: you just rejoined the WG apparently :-) welcome back :-)
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> fantasai: There are a lot of things that SVG allow sin their syntax and 5 years later we find out about it.
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> howcome: There's a consensus route, where we ejust allow it in properties that specifically allow it.
# [18:52] <fantasai> s/syntax/syntax that's incompatible with CSS/
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: That's specific grammars. Is that okay with you?
# [18:53] * glazou_sick laughs
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> howcome: I don't think that's something new, with the specific grammars we use in different properties.
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> smfr: Then you need a new length, in addition to a new number. It will spiral out of control.
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> plinss: The other side of your argument is that I dont' know if it will make Bert happy. Bert, would you accept scinot in specific properties?
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't like it, but I wouldn't object if it was localized enough. I don't know where you'd need it, but sure.
# [18:54] <CesarAcebal> Thank you, Daniel! :) Yes, fortunately I was able to talk to my representative and (rarely being the University of Oviedo) this time he acted quickly to solve the error. ;)
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> ChrisL: So you don't see any place where you need it?
# [18:54] <TabAtkins> Bert: The argument you gave, that I hear, is all about getComputedStyle.
# [18:54] * TabAtkins a little thing called what?
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> plinss: People would like to have something from getComputedStyle and roundtrip it back to a stylesheet.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Just have getComputedStyle return something proper for roundtripping
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We discussed this a few weeks ago and concluded that we should specify a minimum accuracy. The first round will have some truncating, but after that there's no problem.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> smfr: The problem is that you may end up with a long series of 0s.
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> dsinger: You'll be given a number in scinot, and you'll convert it to a number *wrongly*. It woudl be better to auto-translate it.
# [18:57] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Bert: I'd still like to see an example of where this is needed.
# [18:57] * Joins: ChrisL2 (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> Bert: Even if I dont' use it, it's still there. It's on the books.
# [18:57] <ChrisL2> rrsagent, here
# [18:57] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-CSS-irc#T17-55-40
# [18:57] <TabAtkins> howcome: It can be used in harmful ways, for obfuscation or as a switch for browser compatibility.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> smfr: I talked about getComputedStyle when I first brought it up, but the real problem is that there's no number value api that doens't involve converting through a string.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> smfr: We don't strictly need scinot, but it's good to have it roundtrip through javascript.
# [18:58] <TabAtkins> howcome: I think we should define that api.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> ChrisL2: That fixes that part of the problem, but not all of it.
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> plinss: A very important part of the proposal is harmonization with SVG, and that's very important.
# [18:59] * glazou_sick lost phone call
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> plinss: This is the very first thing we're getting into here, we're going to say "No"?
# [18:59] <Zakim> -glazou_sick
# [18:59] * sylvaing nods at plinss so violently he hurts his neck
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> howcome: So are you saying that we'll just say "yes" to every single harmonization effort?
# [19:00] <Zakim> +glazou_sick
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> dsinger: Right, but if the w3c was moderately consistent about what is a "number".
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> plinss: We're not talking about svg coming up with a "foobar" property, that we can just say "Eh, keep it yourself". We're talking about SVG having to define a new language.
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: What is the benefit for authors and implementors to have different grammars for numbers?
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: What is the difference? Why not use the supersete?
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> howcome: Because you make it more difficult to implement CSS.
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: It's already implemented, though.
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> howcome: Yeah, that's an argument for Opera, but not for everyone.
# [19:02] <glazou_sick> TabAtkins: I want that to be minuted !!! :-)
# [19:02] * sylvaing that put the F in WTF
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: The only major browser that doesn't do SVG is IE, and sylvaing is in favor.
# [19:02] * TabAtkins fine.
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> Bert: We're not talking about browsers, we're talking about CSS.
# [19:02] * dsinger sorry guys, time is up, and I have another meeting. next week: octal notation for integers :-(
# [19:02] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [19:02] * sylvaing dsinger YES !
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> width: 0x64px;
# [19:03] <fantasai> that's hex, Tab
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> Bert: If we harmonize the language, CSS would become an xml language. There will always be important details.
# [19:03] <ChrisL2> strawman, no-one suggested that
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: But I don't think "how to write a number" is something that people expect to be different between languages.
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I still want to answer to what the benefit is for authors to ahve them work differently.
# [19:04] * TabAtkins fantasai, if we're doing octal, we need hex.
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Why should it be different? It's confusing for authors.
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> howcome: I think the pain is minor to when people read stylesheets that used scinot to create browser-switches.
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> plinss: I don't think obfuscation is a strong enough argument.
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> howcome: I think the browser-switch is strong.
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> howcome: It's a change in the core grammar.
# [19:05] * dethbakin has to leave. bye all.
# [19:05] <Zakim> -dethbakin
# [19:05] <glazou_sick> bye dethbakin
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I understand that, but if the problem is having property-specific grammars, I think it's worse.
# [19:06] <glazou_sick> plinss: discussion going nowhere at this point
# [19:06] * Parts: dethbakin (dethbakin@98.234.211.150)
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> howcome: We see the problem that IE comments has caused.
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> plinss: This isn't going to be resolved. We'll pick it up later.
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> howcome: I still think best is to use it where we need it.
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: We should get SVG into this conversation as well.
# [19:07] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:07] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [19:07] <Zakim> -sylvaing
# [19:07] <TabAtkins> glazou_sick: Can ChrisL write it up, since he has interests on both sides?
# [19:07] <Zakim> -arronei
# [19:07] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
# [19:07] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:07] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:07] <Zakim> -glazou_sick
# [19:07] <Zakim> -bradk
# [19:07] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> Resolved: ChrisL will summarize the discussion about scinot on www-style.
# [19:08] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [19:08] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:08] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:08] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, dsinger_, +95089aacc, +1.617.650.aadd, glazou_sick, +1.206.324.aaee, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaff, dethbakin, smfr,
# [19:08] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
# [19:08] <Zakim> ... +34.60.940.aagg, CesarAcebal, +1.281.712.aahh, TabAtkins, Bert, dbaron, fantasai, ChrisL, arronei, +1.650.275.aaii, bradk, [IPcaller], +1.408.996.aajj, dsinger
# [19:08] <ChrisL2> zakim, list attendees
# [19:08] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL2, I don't know what conference this is
# [19:15] * Parts: glazou_sick (glazou@82.247.96.19)
# [19:23] <fantasai> dbaron: You tend to make a lot of useful and interesting notes on IRC.
# [19:24] <sylvaing> yes, he does
# [19:24] <dbaron> yeah, when it's not possible to get a word in on the phone
# [19:24] <sylvaing> ..and not just on IRC
# [19:24] <fantasai> dbaron: I suggest biasing a little more towards speaking up
# [19:24] <fantasai> :)
# [19:24] <fantasai> maybe you just have to be a little more agressive about getting airtime?
# [19:29] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
# [19:29] * Quits: ChrisL2 (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
# [19:32] <dbaron> I think lately I've done a bit too much of calling in to meetings where most of the other people are there in-person. It's much harder to interrupt in that situation.
# [19:35] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
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# [19:58] * Quits: howcome (howcome@80.203.19.236) (Ping timeout)
# [20:07] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.203.14.12)
# [20:15] <fantasai> shepazu: Where does SVG allow scientific notation?
# [20:16] <fantasai> shepazu: just in SVG properties in SVG style attrs? In all properties in SVG style attrs? In all SVG properties everywhere? In all properties linked to an SVG document? Other?
# [20:16] <shepazu> fantasai: I would have to confirm, but I think it's anywhere we allow an SVG-Length
# [20:17] <fantasai> what's an SVG-Length?
# [20:18] * Parts: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.64)
# [20:19] <fantasai> shepazu: Here's a better question,
# [20:20] <fantasai> shepazu: which version of SVG allows scientific notation in properties (as opposed to attributes)?
# [20:20] <fantasai> shepazu: because I'm not finding that in 1.1
# [20:20] <shepazu> fantasai: sorry... distracted by telcon while in noisy Apple store... can we follow up by email?
# [20:21] <fantasai> shepazu: sure
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# [20:32] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@83.170.95.133)
# [20:41] <fantasai> Bert: Can you look into why the .htaccess for Test/CSS2.1/20100127 is not able to set charset headers?
# [20:45] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [20:54] <Bert> Oh, yes, I saw you message. I'll try, fantasai.
# [21:00] * Parts: anne (annevk@84.208.107.250)
# [21:27] <Bert> Fantasai, I think I fixed it.
# [21:27] <Bert> AddDefaultCharset only applies to text/html and text/plain, not to application/xhtml+xml or text/css.
# [21:27] <Bert> I added "AddCharset utf-8 .xht .css" for those files.
# [21:27] <Bert> But for that, I had to reduce the strength of a rule in a higher directory.
# [21:37] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:37] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [21:37] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
# [22:08] <fantasai> Bert: I think reducing the strength of the higher rule was the important bit, the explicit Shift_JIS is now taking effect too
# [22:08] <fantasai> Bert: Thanks
# [22:09] <Bert> OK, I didn't test all the thousands of files :-) but if you find an error let me know.
# [22:09] <Bert> (I may not see it tonight, but my computer stays on.)
# [22:20] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
# [22:30] <fantasai> hehe, ok :)
# [23:12] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@83.170.95.133) (Quit: Leaving)
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# Session Close: Thu Feb 11 00:00:00 2010

The end :)