/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-04-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:01] <fantasai> Steve: You might want to wrap borders around that white space
  4. # [00:01] <fantasai> fantasai: You might want to flex the borders, or you might want to flex the padding
  5. # [00:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I handle that by either styling the <li> or the <a> inside it
  6. # [00:02] <fantasai> Steve: There's another piece of this. If had a set of inline-blocks and turned jsutification on
  7. # [00:02] <fantasai> Steve: The only place it could put space would be in between the inline-blocks
  8. # [00:02] <fantasai> Steve: The catch is, you really want some space on the ends to make it look right
  9. # [00:02] * fantasai likes her display: tab spec, it solves all these problems
  10. # [00:03] <fantasai> Steve: I'm asking you to think about it as justification
  11. # [00:04] <fantasai> Steve: There may be other places you'd like justification
  12. # [00:05] <fantasai> fantasai describes a catalog use case
  13. # [00:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: One thing I want to do that I don't have much experience with is what web apps need
  14. # [00:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Because I'm experienced with web sites, but not web apps
  15. # [00:06] <Bert> (There are also Media Queries to deal with different numbers of columns.)
  16. # [00:06] <fantasai> Tab shows an example of a site he designed
  17. # [00:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Here's a bunch of questions.
  18. # [00:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'm flowing this into three rows
  19. # [00:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Right now I can only do with inline-blocks, but that means I can't equalize their heights
  20. # [00:07] <fantasai> Steve: What's the difference between flexbox and flowing tables?
  21. # [00:07] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Not having a grid in both directions
  22. # [00:08] <fantasai> Steve: If I had something I could do this flowing in, having properties that could turn it into the grid...
  23. # [00:08] <fantasai> Steve: I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see less similarity to tables for flowing tables than to flexbox
  24. # [00:08] <fantasai> Steve: I would expect the flowing cells more in the flexbox world
  25. # [00:08] <fantasai> Steve: with additional constraints
  26. # [00:08] <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's why I said there seems to be a point where tables and flexbox come to gether
  27. # [00:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: As you add more constraints to flexbox and reduce constraints in tables they get more similar
  28. # [00:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: We could maybe add more possible constraints to flexbox, and have it look more like a table
  29. # [00:09] <fantasai> TabAtkins: instead of going from tables towards flexbox
  30. # [00:10] <fantasai> Bert: Question about your grid of questions
  31. # [00:10] <fantasai> Bert: I would bet that most people fill top-to-bottom, whereas you fill horizontally first
  32. # [00:11] <fantasai> Tab explains this is because that was the only way he could hack it up into a grid using existing features
  33. # [00:12] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@17.244.2.236)
  34. # [00:12] <anne> btw, live style sheet editing: http://annevankesteren.nl/test/contenteditable-style.htm
  35. # [00:13] <fantasai> Tab explains also why multicol + snap-to-grid wouldn't work: a large item would throw off the alignment
  36. # [00:14] <fantasai> Steve: I have a similar use case of parallel translations
  37. # [00:14] <fantasai> howcome: That's another good use case for column-major instead of column-major
  38. # [00:14] <fantasai> s/column/row/
  39. # [00:15] * fantasai missed alex's comment
  40. # [00:15] <fantasai> TabAtkins: You'd run into the iterative layout problem fantasai pointed out
  41. # [00:15] <fantasai> howcome: Have you looked at line-stacking-strategy?
  42. # [00:16] <howcome> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-linebox/#LineStacking
  43. # [00:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Not recently
  44. # [00:16] <fantasai> TabAtkins: One criticism is that it doesn't apply across blocks
  45. # [00:17] * sylvaing just heard howcome come up with display:clearance-or-whatever
  46. # [00:17] <fantasai> ...
  47. # [00:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Can you set line-stacking-strategy on boxy and have it apply to everything?
  48. # [00:17] <fantasai> ?: It's never been implemented
  49. # [00:17] <fantasai> Steve: InDesign in Japan does that
  50. # [00:17] <fantasai> (just not in CSS)
  51. # [00:18] <fantasai> howcome: It may not be the solution, but is something you should take into account
  52. # [00:18] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I think there's an interesting intersection of table, multicol, flexbox, etc
  53. # [00:18] <fantasai> howcome: I think it's great. Come with your youthful energy and work on this.
  54. # [00:19] <fantasai> Steve: Something to be said for people solving problems by not being aware they're unsolveable
  55. # [00:19] * dsinger <br enthusiam="yay!" ... >
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  62. # [00:39] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  65. # [00:41] * howcome offers free drinks and stuff tomorrow night http://operahakontweetup.eventbrite.com/
  66. # [00:41] * ChrisL display: tabAtkins :)
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  71. # [00:48] * sylvaing was sadly not informed about the hakon tweetup in time or he would have brought stack of free MSIE EU documentation for the grateful crowd
  72. # [00:48] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
  73. # [00:53] * anne still wants his IE t-shirt
  74. # [00:56] * Bert wonders about dinner plans...
  75. # [00:56] * TabAtkins So, for real, who's going to dinner at my house?
  76. # [00:56] * tantek has to leave in ~10min.
  77. # [00:56] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@17.244.3.121)
  78. # [00:56] <fantasai> dbaron: So the way widths work, you have some container
  79. # [00:57] * anne is cool with eating at TabAtkins' or at some restaurant
  80. # [00:57] <fantasai> dbaron: THen you have something inside that has margin border padding, then something inside that
  81. # [00:57] * anne ... actually, if Arron is up for it lets eat at TabAtkins
  82. # [00:57] <fantasai> dbaron: You have computation going in from the edge
  83. # [00:57] <fantasai> dbaron: What we've said in the past is that percentage heights are just auto if the container is auto
  84. # [00:57] * anne ... less restaurant food
  85. # [00:57] * anne ... ++
  86. # [00:57] <fantasai> dbaron: But people want percentage heights to just work
  87. # [00:58] <fantasai> dbaron: There are several places where this woudl be more useful
  88. # [00:58] <fantasai> dbaron: One is multicol
  89. # [00:58] <fantasai> dbaron: You usually want to scroll horizontally off the screen instead of vertically
  90. # [00:58] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  91. # [00:58] * Arron real food is a good idea. Lets eat at TabAtkins
  92. # [00:58] <fantasai> dbaron: My idea is that, as we're doing layout, we keep an idea of what the available width is
  93. # [00:59] <fantasai> dbaron: You start with the width of the viewport, subtract out borderpadding, and just keep subtracting in, possibly replacing with a fixed width
  94. # [00:59] <fantasai> dbaron: If we did this for height as well, percentages could be useful
  95. # [01:00] <fantasai> dbaron: It's not perfect, but it gives you a default in cases where you need a good default
  96. # [01:00] <fantasai> alexmog: another use case is block progression direction changes
  97. # [01:00] <fantasai> dbaron: And there might be some usec ases for doing this with flexbox
  98. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> also text direction changes (vertical text vs horiz text)
  99. # [01:01] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not sure what we're doing with this, but I might try adding it under a vendor prefix in Mozilla.
  100. # [01:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Would it be possible to implement this as how actual percentages work?
  101. # [01:01] <fantasai> dbaron: Probably too late
  102. # [01:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins: as a different unit or something?
  103. # [01:02] <fantasai> dbaron: maybe
  104. # [01:02] <fantasai> dbaron: We could use this for height: fill
  105. # [01:02] <fantasai> dbaron: and maybe even height: content-fit
  106. # [01:02] * Bert will come along to any dinner that looks reasonable.
  107. # [01:03] <fantasai> dbaron: This woudl only get you the effect of 100%
  108. # [01:03] <fantasai> TabAtkins: you could expose fill through calc() and then you can get precentages that way
  109. # [01:05] <fantasai> dbaron: A good use case would be max-height: fill
  110. # [01:05] <fantasai> dbaron: for columns
  111. # [01:05] <fantasai> dbaron: So you fill the screen, and then start growing out
  112. # [01:06] <fantasai> TabAtkins: max-height: 100vh would also solve that case, right?
  113. # [01:06] <fantasai> dbaron: Assuming your columns are not in something overflow: scroll
  114. # [01:07] * Quits: plh-dinner (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  115. # [01:07] <fantasai> people seem to like this for height: fill
  116. # [01:07] <fantasai> Topic: jd's followup to issue-156
  117. # [01:08] <plinss_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0538.html
  118. # [01:11] * Joins: plh-dinner (plh@128.30.52.28)
  119. # [01:11] <fantasai> discussion about the proposal
  120. # [01:12] <fantasai> fantasai: "Once the font family's weights are mapped onto the CSS scale, missing weights are selected as follows:"
  121. # [01:14] <fantasai> use that to replace the introductory sentence, then add jd's bulletted list
  122. # [01:14] <fantasai> RESOLUTION: jdaggett + fantasai proposal above accepted
  123. # [01:14] <howcome> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-gcpm/#setting-named-strings-the-string-set-pro
  124. # [01:15] <fantasai> Topic: GCPM
  125. # [01:15] <fantasai> howcome: I'd like to publish another a WD
  126. # [01:15] <fantasai> howcome: wrt env() function
  127. # [01:15] <fantasai> howcome: There was a question of how to get the date and time in the locale of the user
  128. # [01:15] <fantasai> howcome: There seems to be a widely-available strftime function
  129. # [01:16] <fantasai> dbaron: There's also JavaScript functions that have this functionality
  130. # [01:16] <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not sure if it's exactly compatible
  131. # [01:16] * fantasai hopes it is, that would be annoying otherwise
  132. # [01:17] <dbaron> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference/Global_Objects/Date/toLocaleFormat is a Gecko extension, not part of ECMA
  133. # [01:18] <fantasai> glazou: fwiw, toLocalString uses the language of the browser, not the language of the system
  134. # [01:18] <fantasai> dbaron disagrees
  135. # [01:20] <fantasai> Tantek and Steve want to format date and time
  136. # [01:20] <fantasai> howcome tries to explain that it's not the point of the feature
  137. # [01:20] <fantasai> dbaron: Some strftime things are local-sensitive and some are not
  138. # [01:20] <fantasai> Tantek: Your only choice in howcome's draft is to use the locale-specific version
  139. # [01:20] * dbaron thinks "2010年03月31日 16時16分40秒" is a perfectly readable date format!
  140. # [01:20] <fantasai> Tantek: I prefer if the env() would return in ISO values
  141. # [01:21] <fantasai> Steve: I would too, but i"m not sure it's as useful
  142. # [01:21] <fantasai> Tantek: with hyphens
  143. # [01:21] <fantasai> howcome: So 2010-03-30
  144. # [01:22] <fantasai> bradk: Wasn't the point to do what the browser does now, but be able to style it further?
  145. # [01:24] <fantasai> Steve: I don't mind publishing as long as this is marked as an issue
  146. # [01:24] <fantasai> Tantek: You should start with something universal and expand from there
  147. # [01:25] <fantasai> bradk: I don't think it's bad. There's a reason why browsers print the local-specific version. It's not our job to educate the world on universal time formats
  148. # [01:25] <fantasai> fantasai: You could call it localtime so that you can add other things later
  149. # [01:25] <fantasai> howcome: So local-time and local-date
  150. # [01:26] <fantasai> howcome: what if I want both?
  151. # [01:27] <fantasai> Tantek: local-date-time
  152. # [01:28] <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
  153. # [01:28] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-25-52
  154. # [01:28] <fantasai> howcome: Simon proposed to say that border-clip* should go into borders and backgrounds
  155. # [01:28] <tantek> my personal preference would be for ordinal-date (YYYY-DDD) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Ordinal_dates
  156. # [01:28] <tantek> and on that note - I have to depart. thanks everyone!
  157. # [01:29] <fantasai> fantasai: We agreed to add this for CSS4 Backgrounds and Borders
  158. # [01:30] * Bert imagines an "Odds and Ends and Odd Border Ends Module"...
  159. # [01:30] <fantasai> discussion of where these features belong
  160. # [01:31] <fantasai> fantasai volunteers to pull this into css4-backgrounds
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  162. # [01:32] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai put border-clip into css4-backgrounds
  163. # [01:32] * RRSAgent records action 14
  164. # [01:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  165. # [01:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-222 - Put border-clip into css4-backgrounds [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-04-07].
  166. # [01:33] <fantasai> howcome: Can we agree in principle in publishing GCPM as WD?
  167. # [01:33] <fantasai> no objections
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  169. # [01:33] <fantasai> TabAtkins suggests removing repeat
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  171. # [01:33] <smfr> i also think that hyphenation should move
  172. # [01:33] <fantasai> I suggested it originally, and I think it isn't needed
  173. # [01:33] <fantasai> er
  174. # [01:33] <fantasai> that was Tab
  175. # [01:34] <fantasai> TabAtkins: Also, percentages should refer to the height for vertical borders
  176. # [01:35] <fantasai> Peter: ok, I think we're done
  177. # [01:35] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0551.html
  178. # [01:36] <fantasai> Issue 107 - anonymous table boxes proposal is done, bzbarsky has approved this proposal, and it's ready for wg discussion
  179. # [01:36] <fantasai> please review so we can discuss it
  180. # [01:36] <fantasai> the wrapping on that sucks
  181. # [01:36] * CSS-projector we are Adjourned. Next: Oslo in August (23-25)!
  182. # [01:36] <fantasai> I will resend from a real email client when I get home
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  190. # [01:39] <fantasai> Meeting closed.
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  223. # [03:22] <tantek> hey dino - good to see you yesterday
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  235. # [06:31] <dbaron> RRSAgent, bye
  236. # [06:31] <RRSAgent> I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-actions.rdf :
  237. # [06:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: dbaron write proposal for IE-Opera behavior for issue 26 [1]
  238. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T21-30-31
  239. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chris Find tests for media queries and check into test repository [2]
  240. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-05-59
  241. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: clilley Find tests for media queries and check into test repository [3]
  242. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-06-28
  243. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: glazou make namespaces implementation reports [4]
  244. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-12-52
  245. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: howcome to produce alternate proposal for handling animation and transition together [5]
  246. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T18-40-40
  247. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: dean and smfr to produce issues list for Transitions and Animations, including comments from dbaron and howcome. [6]
  248. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T18-44-50
  249. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: SteveZ Propose changes to character-transform to address above concerns [7]
  250. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T21-06-10
  251. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: clilley Discuss font-family syntax with SVGWG [8]
  252. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-06-45
  253. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: fantasai move issue to css3-lists [9]
  254. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-33-27
  255. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tab Rewrite proposal for Issue 161 [10]
  256. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-48-04
  257. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: anne to set up wiki page to list CSSOM constants for coordination [11]
  258. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T16-55-11
  259. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: anne to produce concrete examples of complex properties and put it on the list [12]
  260. # [06:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T18-14-07
  261. # [06:33] <RRSAgent> ACTION: clilley to rewrite the paragraph in CSS color concerning gamuts and clipping [13]
  262. # [06:33] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T18-35-10
  263. # [06:33] <RRSAgent> ACTION: fantasai put border-clip into css4-backgrounds [14]
  264. # [06:33] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/29-CSS-irc#T23-30-07
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The end :)