/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-04-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 21 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  40. # [17:15] <bradk> Test 123
  41. # [17:27] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout)
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  44. # [17:29] * jdaggett_ is now known as sleepysleepy
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  47. # [17:33] <TabAtkins_> What was the issue we were supposed to review before the call this week?
  48. # [17:36] * bradk doesn't know.
  49. # [17:37] <plinss> anon table boxes
  50. # [17:37] <plinss> link in the minutes
  51. # [17:37] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  52. # [17:37] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  53. # [17:37] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-CSS-irc
  54. # [17:38] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  55. # [17:38] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
  56. # [17:38] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  57. # [17:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  58. # [17:43] * bradk is only partly here, using phone for irc.
  59. # [17:47] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
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  61. # [17:58] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  62. # [17:58] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  63. # [17:58] * Zakim Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has not yet started, dbaron
  64. # [17:58] * Zakim sees on irc: dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, bradk, TabAtkins_, anne, miketaylr, sleepysleepy, myakura, arronei, krijnh, paul_irish, shepazu, fantasai, plinss_, TabAtkins, jgraham, Hixie,
  65. # [17:58] * Zakim ... plinss, Bert, trackbot
  66. # [17:59] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  67. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aaaa
  68. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aaaa is me
  69. # [17:59] <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
  70. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  71. # [18:01] * Joins: murakami (murakami@118.154.209.3)
  72. # [18:01] * sleepysleepy is now known as jdaggett_sleepy
  73. # [18:01] <jdaggett_sleepy> Zakim, IPCaller is me
  74. # [18:01] <Zakim> +jdaggett_sleepy; got it
  75. # [18:01] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  76. # [18:01] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.18.55)
  77. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aabb
  78. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aacc
  79. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aadd
  80. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, aacc is me
  81. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  82. # [18:02] <Zakim> +fantasai
  83. # [18:02] <dethbakin> Zakim,1.408.996.aabb is dethbakin
  84. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, dethbakin, I do not recognize a party named '1.408.996.aabb'
  85. # [18:03] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  86. # [18:03] <dethbakin> Zakim, aabb is dethbakin
  87. # [18:03] <TabAtkins> Zakim, aabb is dethbakin
  88. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  89. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  90. # [18:03] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242)
  91. # [18:03] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  92. # [18:03] * dbaron Zakim, who is on the phone?
  93. # [18:03] * Zakim sees on the phone: TabAtkins, jdaggett_sleepy, dethbakin, plinss, +1.206.324.aadd, fantasai, SteveZ, David_Baron
  94. # [18:03] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  95. # [18:03] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@67.218.109.208)
  96. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaee
  97. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
  98. # [18:04] * Joins: smfr (smfr@68.183.233.103)
  99. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaff
  100. # [18:04] <smfr> Zakim, aaff is me
  101. # [18:04] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  102. # [18:04] <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.398.aaee is dsinger
  103. # [18:04] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  104. # [18:04] <dsinger> zakim, you have a dreadful memory
  105. # [18:04] <Zakim> I don't understand 'you have a dreadful memory', dsinger
  106. # [18:04] <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
  107. # [18:04] <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
  108. # [18:05] <dbaron> dsinger, you can improve Zakim's memory here: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
  109. # [18:05] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  110. # [18:05] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  111. # [18:05] * dsinger I have done that multiple times. It's getting tedious
  112. # [18:06] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  113. # [18:06] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (51%), SteveZ (5%), Bert (26%)
  114. # [18:07] * fantasai can scribe today
  115. # [18:07] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  116. # [18:07] <fantasai> Peter: Any other agenda topics?
  117. # [18:08] <fantasai> fantasai: Murakami-san would like to become co-editor of css3-text and css3-text-layout
  118. # [18:08] <fantasai> No objections
  119. # [18:09] <murakami> Thanks
  120. # [18:09] <fantasai> Topic: Test Suite Status
  121. # [18:10] <fantasai> fantasai has not worked on the test suite since the F2F, so nothing to report
  122. # [18:10] <fantasai> Topic: Table Anonymous Boxes
  123. # [18:10] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  124. # [18:10] <fantasai> Tab: AFAICT, it looks great
  125. # [18:10] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0551.html
  126. # [18:10] * sylvaing was there at its inception. Fond memories.
  127. # [18:11] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0551.html
  128. # [18:11] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  129. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, mute ChrisL
  130. # [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
  131. # [18:12] <jdaggett_sleepy> loud...
  132. # [18:12] * sylvaing sounded like IE6 collapsing margins. Ouch.
  133. # [18:12] <ChrisL> better now?
  134. # [18:12] <fantasai> dbaron: Was Boris happy with it?
  135. # [18:12] <dbaron> ChrisL, I muted you
  136. # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: yes
  137. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, unmute ChrisL
  138. # [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
  139. # [18:12] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
  140. # [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
  141. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, mute ChrisL
  142. # [18:12] <jdaggett_sleepy> Zakim, who is noisy
  143. # [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
  144. # [18:12] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett_sleepy
  145. # [18:12] <dbaron> ChrisL, not better!
  146. # [18:12] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
  147. # [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
  148. # [18:12] <dbaron> Zakim, mute ChrisL
  149. # [18:12] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
  150. # [18:12] <dbaron> ChrisL, not better!
  151. # [18:12] <ChrisL> oh ffs!
  152. # [18:12] * jdaggett_sleepy Zakim, who is noisy
  153. # [18:12] * Zakim I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett_sleepy
  154. # [18:12] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  155. # [18:13] * dsinger this is a nice unmute-clik-clik-mute game!!
  156. # [18:13] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  157. # [18:14] * dsinger wow, Chris without the clix!
  158. # [18:14] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
  159. # [18:14] <Zakim> ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
  160. # [18:14] * dsinger zakim, who is here?
  161. # [18:14] * Zakim sees on the phone: TabAtkins, jdaggett_sleepy, dethbakin, plinss, +1.206.324.aadd, fantasai, SteveZ, David_Baron, dsinger (muted), Bert, smfr, ChrisL
  162. # [18:14] * Zakim sees on irc: ChrisL, oyvind, smfr, dsinger, sylvaing, szilles, dethbakin, murakami, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, bradk, TabAtkins_, anne, miketaylr, jdaggett_sleepy, myakura, arronei,
  163. # [18:14] * Zakim ... krijnh, paul_irish, shepazu, fantasai, plinss_, TabAtkins, jgraham, Hixie, plinss, Bert, trackbot
  164. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai: There's a related issue of handling abspos elements
  165. # [18:14] <plinss> zakim, aadd is sylvaing
  166. # [18:14] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  167. # [18:16] <fantasai> fantasai: Boris's original proposal had abspos elements leave behind a "placeholder", which would then affect the anonymous table box generation
  168. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: From an implementator's perspective, I can see why, because in Gecko each out-of-flow has a placeholder left behind so that we can calculate its static position
  169. # [18:17] <oyvind> does 1.2 break compat? <table><colgroup><strong>test</strong></colgroup></table> is shown here...
  170. # [18:17] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@67.218.109.208) (Quit: dsinger)
  171. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: But from an authoring perspective, it doesn't make any sense for the abspos to leave anything behind
  172. # [18:17] <fantasai> fantasai: The out-o-f-flow should just disappear from its original position
  173. # [18:18] <fantasai> Tab agrees that it should not affect layout where it used to be (but is no longer)
  174. # [18:19] <fantasai> fantasai: it's easy to say that the abspos elements dont' affect box generation in their former location, but it's harder to stay then what the static position is
  175. # [18:19] <fantasai> ACTION: Tab write a proposal
  176. # [18:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  177. # [18:19] * RRSAgent records action 1
  178. # [18:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-225 - Write a proposal [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-04-28].
  179. # [18:19] <fantasai> Bert: There were some changes to the behavior in Boris's proposal, are those still there?
  180. # [18:19] <fantasai> Bert is concerned about changes to the spec
  181. # [18:20] <fantasai> Tab asserts that the spec had a lot of errors, and this cleanup is the right direction to go in
  182. # [18:21] * fantasai is sorry, she didn't quite get all the details in that discussion
  183. # [18:21] * Quits: bradk (bradk@166.135.203.238) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  184. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> <style>div { display: table; } span.tc { display: table-cell; }</style><div><span class=tc>foo</span><span>bar</span><span class=tc>baz</span></div>
  185. # [18:22] <fantasai> Tab: Given this testcase, you see one row with three cells in bz's definition, not one table with three rows
  186. # [18:22] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aagg
  187. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> s/in bz's definition/in Firefox and Chrome/
  188. # [18:23] * Joins: bradk (bradk@166.135.203.238)
  189. # [18:23] <Zakim> +dethbakin.a
  190. # [18:23] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4)
  191. # [18:24] * dsinger zakim, who is here>?
  192. # [18:24] * Zakim I don't understand your question, dsinger.
  193. # [18:24] <Zakim> -dsinger
  194. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: bz did a lot of testing of all the major browsers when he was writing this
  195. # [18:24] * dsinger zakim, who is here?
  196. # [18:24] * Zakim sees on the phone: TabAtkins, jdaggett_sleepy, dethbakin, plinss, sylvaing, fantasai, SteveZ, David_Baron, Bert, smfr, ChrisL, +1.650.766.aagg, dethbakin.a
  197. # [18:24] * Zakim sees on irc: dsinger, bradk, ChrisL, oyvind, smfr, sylvaing, szilles, dethbakin, murakami, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, TabAtkins_, anne, miketaylr, jdaggett_sleepy, myakura, arronei,
  198. # [18:24] * Zakim ... krijnh, paul_irish, shepazu, fantasai, plinss_, TabAtkins, jgraham, Hixie, plinss, Bert, trackbot
  199. # [18:24] <Zakim> -dethbakin.a
  200. # [18:24] <sylvaing> same results in IE8 and Opera 10.51
  201. # [18:24] <fantasai> fantasai: and tried to write something that was as compatible as possible with all of them
  202. # [18:24] <dsinger> zakim, dethbakin.a is [Apple]
  203. # [18:24] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named 'dethbakin.a'
  204. # [18:24] <fantasai> Tab: Looks like current 2.1 also specifies a single row
  205. # [18:24] <Zakim> +dethbakin.a
  206. # [18:25] <dsinger> zakim, dethbakin.a is [Apple]
  207. # [18:25] <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
  208. # [18:25] * dsinger zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
  209. # [18:25] * Zakim +dsinger; got it
  210. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> To be specific, I misread the proposed algorithm. It does indeed mandate the behavior that we see in browsers for that testcase.
  211. # [18:25] <bradk> Zakim, aagg is me.
  212. # [18:25] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  213. # [18:25] * Quits: bradk (bradk@166.135.203.238) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  214. # [18:25] <fantasai> Peter: Any other issues? Everyone's ok with the proposal?
  215. # [18:25] * Joins: bradk (bradk@166.135.203.238)
  216. # [18:25] <fantasai> Bert: yes, I can't read it in such a short time
  217. # [18:26] <fantasai> Bert: I'll complain later if I see problems with it
  218. # [18:26] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Provisionally accept bz+fantasai's table anonymous box proposal for CSS2.1
  219. # [18:27] <jdaggett_sleepy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0553.html
  220. # [18:27] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
  221. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett_sleepy: Bert posted a list of comments on the css3-fonts spec
  222. # [18:28] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jdaggett_sleepy (81%), [Apple] (14%)
  223. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett_sleepy: There are both editorial and substantial comments.
  224. # [18:28] <jdaggett_sleepy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Apr/0069.html
  225. # [18:28] <fantasai> jdaggett_sleepy: I fixed most of the editorial comments
  226. # [18:28] <fantasai> jd: Here are my responses
  227. # [18:28] <fantasai> jd: THe first issue is about font-stretch not being included in the font shorthand
  228. # [18:29] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  229. # [18:29] * smfr wonders what happened to the agenda
  230. # [18:29] <ChrisL> q+
  231. # [18:29] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  232. # [18:29] * Quits: anne (annevk@114.49.4.147) (Ping timeout)
  233. # [18:29] <fantasai> jd: My reason to skip it out was that 'font' already has a ton of stuff in it
  234. # [18:29] <fantasai> ChrisL: When we were working on that we concluded that 'font' shorthand was too fragile to alter
  235. # [18:29] <fantasai> ChrisL: If that's not a problem anymore, then, there's no reason not to include it
  236. # [18:30] <fantasai> ChrisL: So we concluded to only include settings from 2.1 in the shorthand
  237. # [18:30] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  238. # [18:30] <fantasai> jd: I'm on the fence because I don't see font-stretch being used much
  239. # [18:30] <fantasai> jd: I'll experiment and see if including it into the shorthand works
  240. # [18:31] <fantasai> jd: Comment B), there was a note because Steve was concerned about conflicts. We were talking about whether to have a registry
  241. # [18:31] <fantasai> Steve: Offhand I guess I agree with Bert's observation. At the time, we had much more volatility going on.
  242. # [18:31] <fantasai> Steve: If we can update the document to handle it...
  243. # [18:31] <ChrisL> agree the volatility is manageable
  244. # [18:32] <fantasai> Steve: Bert's comment is fine, I can live with that
  245. # [18:32] <fantasai> jd: Comment c) is about the syntax of local()
  246. # [18:32] <fantasai> jd: Bert is asking whether we should put in wording about the syntax if it's not quoted
  247. # [18:33] <fantasai> jd: I think that sounds good, but I'm concerned about our current discussions about unquoted font names
  248. # [18:33] <fantasai> jd: Some of the proposals don't correlate with an easy-to-understand rule
  249. # [18:33] <fantasai> jd: And I'm waiting to see what happens there
  250. # [18:34] <fantasai> ChrisL: We should have the same set of restrictions on both font-face and font-familky
  251. # [18:34] <fantasai> jd: I agree with that, but also because of font shorthand, there are some restrictions that you need to have in font-family that you don't need in font-face
  252. # [18:34] <fantasai> jd: I think it's really confusing for people
  253. # [18:35] <fantasai> jd: e.g. a font name that starts with a number causes all kinds of problems
  254. # [18:35] <fantasai> jd: Bert, did you have anything?
  255. # [18:35] <fantasai> Bert: Trying to find where <font-face-name> is defined
  256. # [18:35] <ChrisL> I sent in some responses to Bert's comments (before seeing John's ones) - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Apr/0451.html
  257. # [18:36] <fantasai> jd points to the definition
  258. # [18:36] <fantasai> Bert: My issue is what does "optionally" mean? When do you need quotes? When do you not need quotes? When are they optional.
  259. # [18:38] <Zakim> -smfr
  260. # [18:38] <Zakim> +smfr
  261. # [18:38] <fantasai> jd: It's always optional
  262. # [18:38] <szilles> +1 for what fantasai said
  263. # [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai: It can't always be optional. If the font name includes brackets or backslashes, you have to quote it.
  264. # [18:39] <fantasai> fantasai: The best thing to do would be to point to the font-family definition. It might be slightly more restrictive than necessary here, but I think that's less of a problem than having an inconsistency there. You can recommend to quote anything with numbers or symbols.
  265. # [18:39] <fantasai> jd talks about the font-matching algorithm
  266. # [18:40] <dsinger> I would recommend always quoting font names. I would expect to have to, in fact. They are not part of the CSS language (keywords in their own right) but values supplied into it.
  267. # [18:40] * Joins: fantasai_ (fantasai@68.192.182.154)
  268. # [18:41] <fantasai_> jd: The point here is to do font-matching without downloading the font insofar as possible
  269. # [18:41] <fantasai> jd: The point here is to do font-matching without the font face being downloaded insofar as possible.
  270. # [18:41] <fantasai_> jd: because we dont' want to download the font if we don't need it
  271. # [18:41] <fantasai_> Bert: The problem I have is with specifying sythetic bolding / italics
  272. # [18:42] * fantasai_ missed a lot of that explanation
  273. # [18:42] <fantasai_> jd: If someone wants to never have synthetic bolding, they can point the bold versions at the same font
  274. # [18:42] * dsinger (still on quotes) That the language might allow you to get away without quotes under some restricted circumstances is a nicety. Those circumstances don't have to be pleasant or predictable.
  275. # [18:42] <fantasai_> Bert: I thought the text said something else
  276. # [18:43] <fantasai_> Bert: I thought it meant that, if the descriptor said the font is bold, and the font is normal, the UA would have to synthesize the bold
  277. # [18:43] <fantasai_> Bert: I don't object to what you explained
  278. # [18:44] <fantasai_> jd: g) is on whether font-kerning is needed as a property or not
  279. # [18:44] <fantasai_> jd: It's right now specified as on by default
  280. # [18:44] <fantasai_> jd: Authors have the ability to disable it
  281. # [18:45] <fantasai_> jd: It's there for situations where authors don't want kerning. These are uncommon, but I think it's important to allow authors to turn it off.
  282. # [18:45] <fantasai_> Bert: I think there are so few cases where you'd want to turn it off
  283. # [18:46] <fantasai_> jd: in some cases you might not have the right kerning data
  284. # [18:46] <Zakim> -bradk
  285. # [18:47] <Zakim> -plinss
  286. # [18:47] <fantasai_> Steve: What happens with kerning on monospace fonts?
  287. # [18:47] <fantasai_> jd: It usually doesn't have any kerning data
  288. # [18:47] <Zakim> +bradk
  289. # [18:47] <fantasai_> Steve: i'm trying to think of a case where I'd want to turn off kerning
  290. # [18:47] <Zakim> +plinss
  291. # [18:47] <fantasai_> jd: For complex script support, there might be cases where you need to override that.
  292. # [18:48] <fantasai_> jd: I think I need to come up with specific examples
  293. # [18:48] * Quits: bradk (bradk@166.135.203.238) (Ping timeout)
  294. # [18:49] <fantasai_> Steve: I hope that everyone agrees kerning should be on by default.
  295. # [18:49] <fantasai_> jd: One of the objections to turning kerning on by default is that people compain about performance implications
  296. # [18:50] <fantasai_> jd: This way those people can turn it off.
  297. # [18:50] <fantasai_> fantasai suggests marking it at-risk
  298. # [18:50] <fantasai_> jd: I will add a note saying that there's some question of whether this feature is needed.
  299. # [18:50] <fantasai_> dbaron: It seems like the perf concerns are less about authors who particularly want perf than about things like perf benchmarks and stuff
  300. # [18:51] <fantasai_> dbaron: It's going to be somebody testing perf characteristics, not tweaking a page to make it faster.
  301. # [18:51] <fantasai_> dbaron: If it's measurable in that context, I'm not sure that it is, I don't think having a property for turning it off is really addressing the perf concern
  302. # [18:52] <fantasai_> jd: Kerning usually requires going through a slower-path API for font rendering
  303. # [18:52] <fantasai_> jd: that allows for more effects
  304. # [18:52] <fantasai_> jd: you have to go through that API for most of the new features here anyway
  305. # [18:53] <fantasai_> Simon: In terms of WebKit, we know that kerning has a serious impact on pageload perf
  306. # [18:54] <fantasai_> Simon: I'm not sure what the impact of these complex text features will be
  307. # [18:54] <fantasai_> Simon: If the expectation is that browsers will suddenly start doing all this complex text layout, I don't really see a path to getting there
  308. # [18:54] <fantasai_> jd: You have to render a huge amount of text to get a pref lag
  309. # [18:54] <fantasai_> jd: Firefox has had kerning on by default for 2 years now
  310. # [18:55] <fantasai_> dbaron: I thought that was only for large font sizes
  311. # [18:55] <fantasai_> jd: On Windows.
  312. # [18:55] <fantasai_> jd: You can do the measurements, and you can get numbers that it's faster to turn it off
  313. # [18:55] <fantasai_> jd: But when you look at documents and what it takes to lay them out
  314. # [18:55] <fantasai_> jd: the effect of kerning is a very small part of that
  315. # [18:57] <fantasai_> Sylvain: MS did some testing awhile back, and with kerning on the text part of layout was almost twice as slow.
  316. # [18:57] <fantasai_> Sylvain: We haven't done that testing recently, and not sure what the effect on total page layout is
  317. # [18:57] <ChrisL> sounds like we could do with some recent benchmark numbers on current platforms
  318. # [18:58] <fantasai_> jd: The APIs were optimized for complex scripts, not for additional font features on simple scripts
  319. # [18:58] <fantasai_> ChrisL: We need to get up-to-date measurements
  320. # [18:58] <fantasai_> ChrisL: If we're going to have this discussion, we need to have measurements from current builds using current APIs
  321. # [19:01] <fantasai_> fantasai suggests having a default 'auto' value that lets UAs pick a compromise between perf and prettiness
  322. # [19:01] <fantasai_> fantasai: If an author wants it on, they can pick the always-on option
  323. # [19:03] <fantasai_> dsinger, Bert: it makes sense to have the browsers compete on perf vs prettiness
  324. # [19:05] <fantasai_> Steve: We should recommend that kerning be on by default
  325. # [19:06] <ChrisL> sounds like a three way auto | on | off where auto means "should be on"
  326. # [19:06] <fantasai_> Steve: That's the default in OpenType
  327. # [19:06] <fantasai_> "but could be off if the UA decides the perf isn't worth it in most cases"
  328. # [19:07] <fantasai_> Sylvain discusses sub-pixel positioning and that turning kerning off can be helpful for debugging sites
  329. # [19:08] <fantasai_> Sylvain: and on certain sites, where the author isn't expecting it, can alter the layout in ways the author does not want
  330. # [19:08] <fantasai_> jd: So what I'm taking from this is that kerning is a property with three values: 'auto', which means UA decides, but recommended to be on, 'normal', which means on, and 'none' which means off
  331. # [19:09] <fantasai_> dbaron: I sent some comments on the CSSOM issue over email.
  332. # [19:09] <fantasai_> Tab too
  333. # [19:09] <fantasai_> Meeting closed
  334. # [19:09] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  335. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  336. # [19:09] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  337. # [19:09] <Zakim> -jdaggett_sleepy
  338. # [19:09] <Zakim> -smfr
  339. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  340. # [19:09] <Zakim> -dethbakin
  341. # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  342. # [19:09] <Zakim> -plinss
  343. # [19:09] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  344. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
  345. # [19:09] * Parts: murakami (murakami@118.154.209.3) (Leaving...)
  346. # [19:09] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.20.4) (Quit: dsinger)
  347. # [19:09] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  348. # [19:13] * Quits: jdaggett_sleepy (jdaggett@110.4.186.83) (Quit: jdaggett_sleepy)
  349. # [19:14] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  350. # [19:15] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  351. # [19:15] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.253.aaaa, TabAtkins, jdaggett_sleepy, +1.408.996.aabb, +1.858.216.aacc, +1.206.324.aadd, plinss, fantasai, SteveZ, dethbakin, David_Baron, Bert,
  352. # [19:15] <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aaff, smfr, dsinger, ChrisL, sylvaing, +1.650.766.aagg, bradk
  353. # [19:15] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  354. # [19:20] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  355. # [19:28] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.17.119.104) (Quit: Leaving...)
  356. # [19:30] * Quits: smfr (smfr@68.183.233.103) (Quit: smfr)
  357. # [19:49] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  358. # [20:06] * Quits: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Quit: Fire on main board error, client combusted)
  359. # [20:32] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  360. # [20:32] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  361. # [20:53] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  362. # [20:56] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242) (Ping timeout)
  363. # [21:03] * Quits: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.18.55) (Quit: dethbakin)
  364. # [21:58] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.18.55)
  365. # [23:04] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  366. # Session Close: Thu Apr 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)