/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-05-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  21. # [13:02] <karl> http://css-infos.net/properties/webkit.php
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  35. # [17:26] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-CSS-irc
  36. # [17:27] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  37. # [17:27] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
  38. # [17:35] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
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  40. # [17:54] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  41. # [17:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  42. # [17:56] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@63.81.104.194)
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  45. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, code ?
  46. # [17:58] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
  47. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  48. # [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
  49. # [17:58] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
  50. # [17:58] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  51. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +95089aabb
  52. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aacc
  53. # [18:02] <dethbakin> zakim, aacc is me
  54. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  55. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  56. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.415.920.aadd
  57. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaee
  58. # [18:04] <Zakim> - +1.415.920.aadd
  59. # [18:04] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  60. # [18:04] <bradk> Zakim, aaee is me
  61. # [18:04] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  62. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Bert
  63. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
  64. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  65. # [18:05] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  66. # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  67. # [18:05] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  68. # [18:05] * fantasai suspects Michael_Cooper is her, but has no idea why
  69. # [18:06] * Joins: smfr (smfr@68.183.233.103)
  70. # [18:06] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  71. # [18:06] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  72. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim, whois noisy?
  73. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, glazou.
  74. # [18:06] * TabAtkins_ I'll be here just in IRC today, rather than phone.
  75. # [18:07] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  76. # [18:07] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  77. # [18:07] <glazou> TabAtkins_: np
  78. # [18:07] * ChrisL assumes noise is ok now?
  79. # [18:07] * Bert hears no clicks anymore, so nois eis OK
  80. # [18:07] <fantasai> glazou: please send minutes from last week
  81. # [18:07] * fantasai forgot
  82. # [18:08] <fantasai> glazou: No extra agenda items today
  83. # [18:08] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010AprJun/0083.html
  84. # [18:08] <fantasai> CSS2.1
  85. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaff
  86. # [18:08] <smfr> Zakim, aaff is smfr
  87. # [18:08] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  88. # [18:08] <fantasai> glazou: Arron sent me an email on the status of the spec. We have 57 open issues on CSS2.1
  89. # [18:08] <fantasai> glazou: list is in the agenda
  90. # [18:08] <fantasai> glazou lists assigned actions
  91. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: 23 open and unassigned
  92. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: We have to solve all of these asap.
  93. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: Ideally we'd like to have all the proposals by the end of this month
  94. # [18:09] <fantasai> glazou: and assign the actions to update the spec and the test suite
  95. # [18:09] <fantasai> Bert: It's not as bad as it seems. All but 2 of mine are editorial.
  96. # [18:10] <fantasai> glazou: Let's browse the issues
  97. # [18:11] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-26
  98. # [18:11] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
  99. # [18:11] <fantasai> dbaron: We came to a resolution for 26, but I need to write wording. 101 I need to look into
  100. # [18:11] <fantasai> glazou: Can you do that before the end of the month?
  101. # [18:11] <fantasai> dbaron: I think so
  102. # [18:11] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-53
  103. # [18:12] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  104. # [18:12] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm supposed to work on the test suite, so I probably won't get to CSS2.1 issues until beginning of June
  105. # [18:12] <fantasai> glazou: How do these issues impact the test suite?
  106. # [18:13] <fantasai> fantasai: Some will require test changes, other require more tests.
  107. # [18:13] <fantasai> arronei: I've been trying to track issues and write tests, but haven't caught everything
  108. # [18:13] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-60
  109. # [18:14] <fantasai> fantasai ... June
  110. # [18:14] <fantasai> arronei: Sylvain's issue, I think he just needs to send out a summary email on that.
  111. # [18:14] <fantasai> glazou: Bert?
  112. # [18:15] <fantasai> Bert: Haven't read through the anonymous table one, I had promised to do that before editing.
  113. # [18:16] <fantasai> Bert: The one on table captions and block-level items, #120, that will take me time
  114. # [18:16] <fantasai> Bert: but should be possible before the end of the month
  115. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: Arron?
  116. # [18:17] <fantasai> arronei: I should have the testcase ones today or tomorrow.
  117. # [18:17] <fantasai> arronei: I assigned one to myself about creating images for line-height etc. I can have that done this week
  118. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: Tab sent an email about his actions
  119. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: He did issue 161
  120. # [18:17] <fantasai> glazou: And will have a proposal for 110 by Friday.
  121. # [18:18] <fantasai> glazou: We have 11 issues assigned to the WG, and 12 that are unassigned
  122. # [18:18] <fantasai> arronei: Do we have feedback on the SVGWG one yet?
  123. # [18:19] <fantasai> ChrisL: In summary, I'm halfway through porting your testcases to SVG. Should be done by end of this week. We have an F2F end of may, so should be able to discuss and close the issue June 2nd
  124. # [18:19] <fantasai> glazou: First unassigned issue is 86
  125. # [18:19] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86
  126. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: The horizonal position is straightforward, vertical maybe harder.
  127. # [18:21] <fantasai> dbaron: Could also leave it undefined
  128. # [18:21] <fantasai> fantasai: Prefer to leave it undefined, define in CSS3 Lists
  129. # [18:21] <fantasai> arron agrees.
  130. # [18:21] <dbaron> actually, the complexity of horizontal and vertical isn't that different
  131. # [18:22] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Leave exact position of the bullet undefined.
  132. # [18:24] * dethbakin needs to leave irc, but i will still be on the call
  133. # [18:24] * Quits: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108) (Quit: dethbakin)
  134. # [18:24] <fantasai> "The position of the list-item marker in the presence of floats and when text-align is not its initial value is undefined in CSS2.1."
  135. # [18:24] <bradk> "when adjacentg to floats" maybe?
  136. # [18:25] <fantasai> better
  137. # [18:25] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-117
  138. # [18:26] <dbaron> I think this is basically http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/1999Mar/0121.html :-)
  139. # [18:26] <dbaron> at least 4a
  140. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: I think 4b and 4c are relatively straightforward.
  141. # [18:27] <fantasai> dbaron: I think this was a point we missed when we added the strut
  142. # [18:28] <fantasai> dbaron: I think the solution is to remove bullet .4 and add a parenthetical to .3 mentioning the strut
  143. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: "(Including the strut described below.)"
  144. # [18:29] <fantasai> dbaron: Although we don't actually say strut, we say "what TeX calls a strut"
  145. # [18:30] <fantasai> I suggest "(taking into consideration the strut mentioned below)"
  146. # [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: 4a is the same as my message from 1999.
  147. # [18:30] <fantasai> dbaron: I think we resolved to leave it undefined in 2.1 and define it in 3
  148. # [18:31] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  149. # [18:32] <fantasai> glazou: fine by me
  150. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: Do we need to make it explicitly undefined?
  151. # [18:32] <fantasai> dbaron: It's not currently stated as undefined
  152. # [18:32] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  153. # [18:33] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Mark 4a undefined in CSS2.1, accept dbaron's proposal (drop 4 and add parenthetical to 3) for 4b and 4c.
  154. # [18:33] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0004.html
  155. # [18:34] <fantasai> dbaron: I think 10a is editorial, but probably a good idea
  156. # [18:35] * glazou fantasai, minute action for Bert?
  157. # [18:35] * fantasai it's tracked in the issues list
  158. # [18:35] * glazou cool
  159. # [18:35] <dbaron> I think 10b is editorial; I have no opinion either way.
  160. # [18:35] <fantasai> Bert: There's more explanation in CSS3, but I wouldn't want to copy it all.
  161. # [18:36] <fantasai> several happy to leave explanation to CSS3
  162. # [18:36] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't see us having a motivation to work on CSS3 Line in the near future
  163. # [18:37] <fantasai> glazou: What are our options?
  164. # [18:37] <fantasai> Bert: The issue there is to mention that baselines are found in the font. Maybe we can make a note about baselines being found in the font metrics somewhere
  165. # [18:37] <fantasai> Chris: Yes, I think that's enough of a hint to say that they're in the font without having to import the whole css3 line module.
  166. # [18:38] <fantasai> arron: And maybe say at the end of that that this will be defined further in a future specification.
  167. # [18:38] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-119
  168. # [18:39] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  169. # [18:39] <fantasai> arron: I think this can be done at the same time 120 is being updated with a new proposal
  170. # [18:39] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  171. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: I think they're actually done rather different. The definition Anton cites for table cells is not really the definition that we want here anyway
  172. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: The baseline of a block is the baseline the block would have if it had text in it
  173. # [18:40] <fantasai> dbaron: The problem is that what the baseline actually is depends on what characters are in the block. We just sort of ignore that issue and pick one
  174. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: This another reason why the anonymous root inline box idea works better than the strut idea.
  175. # [18:41] <fantasai> dbaron: That said, I think the proposal in the issues list, to remove "block's", is the right idea here.
  176. # [18:41] * fantasai didn't catch what Bert said, but it seemed to be agreeing with dbaron
  177. # [18:42] <fantasai> dbaron: I can also see changing block's baseline to line's baseline. But I'd be ok either way, and maybe Bert can come up with something better
  178. # [18:42] <fantasai> Bert: Either would work for me. Don't know which is better. Can't think of a third option.
  179. # [18:43] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-129
  180. # [18:44] <fantasai> Bert: It's a bit more complex than that. To get all the backup out of the parser, we'd have to change some of the tokens. I'm not in favor of that.
  181. # [18:44] <fantasai> Bert: There aren't many cases that change.
  182. # [18:45] <fantasai> glazou: Zack's email was mostly concerned about performance of the scanner.
  183. # [18:45] <fantasai> glazou: It is not necessary to implement CSS parsing using the tokens in the grammar, they are just there to define things.
  184. # [18:46] <fantasai> Bert: Yes, but you'd still have to buffer things no matter how you implement.
  185. # [18:46] <fantasai> dbaron: The point Zack made is something we generally want to be true: anything that is itself a token in the tokenizer, you want the same thing minus one character to also be a token.
  186. # [18:46] <fantasai> dbaron: Whether or not that thing is the same token is less important.
  187. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: You don't want to start parsing a long token, realize it doesn't end, and have to go back all the way to the beginning.
  188. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: The current place we have this problem is the url() token.
  189. # [18:47] <fantasai> dbaron: Gecko gets around this by handling it in the parser.
  190. # [18:48] <fantasai> glazou: The prose says it is a URI. If it's not a valid URI, it should be an invalid token.
  191. # [18:48] <fantasai> dbaron: ... we're scanning all these characters. We build a character buffer of the characters that will be the URL.
  192. # [18:49] <fantasai> dbaron: If we get a valid URL token, then we save it. If we don't, we go backwards to the start.
  193. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: If you need to backtrack you have to go and reparse and match parentheses and things
  194. # [18:50] <fantasai> peter: Parentheses aren't allowed unquoted.
  195. # [18:50] <fantasai> dbaron: But essentially, if you're using a tokenizer, you have to backtrack through the whole thing and retokenize so you handle brackets and parens correctly
  196. # [18:51] <fantasai> glazou: Is ? necessary?
  197. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: I don't know.
  198. # [18:52] <fantasai> peter: We already say that url parsing is its own special world anyway
  199. # [18:52] <fantasai> dbaron: But in the error cases, you don't match that token. So if you follow the spec as written, you need to go back and retokenize
  200. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: An example of an invalid url token is url(a'b)
  201. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: One of the things Zack was proposing was to add a new token for invalid URIs so that you don't have to backtrack.
  202. # [18:53] <fantasai> dbaron: A token that represents the invalid cases so you don't have to go back and count brackets and braces.
  203. # [18:53] <fantasai> peter: I think I prefer that.
  204. # [18:54] <fantasai> peter: It may be a bit weird to define that token
  205. # [18:55] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.19.11)
  206. # [18:56] <fantasai> glazou: Ok, let's defer this until next week so we have time to discuss, dbaron with Zack, etc.
  207. # [18:56] * glazou hears nothing any more
  208. # [18:56] <glazou> alllo ?-)
  209. # [18:56] <Zakim> - +95089aabb
  210. # [18:56] <dbaron> glazou, we still hear each other
  211. # [18:56] <fantasai> ChrisL is talking, so maybe you need to reconnect
  212. # [18:57] <dbaron> glazou, but we can't hear you
  213. # [18:57] * Bert can hear everybody except daniel
  214. # [18:57] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-137
  215. # [18:57] <Zakim> + +95089aagg
  216. # [18:57] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  217. # [18:57] <glazou> Zakim, aagg isme
  218. # [18:57] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aagg isme', glazou
  219. # [18:57] <glazou> Zakim, 95089aagg is me
  220. # [18:57] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '95089aagg'
  221. # [18:57] <fantasai> Zakim, aagg is glazou
  222. # [18:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  223. # [18:58] <fantasai> Chris: I have some proposals for other issues
  224. # [18:58] <ChrisL> ISSUE 143 has already been dealt with, a very clear spec change looks good to me, suggest closing it
  225. # [18:58] <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/selectors3/Overview.html.diff?r1=1.66&r2=1.67&f=h
  226. # [18:59] <fantasai> ChrisL: fantasai's wording changes look good, let's put those in
  227. # [18:59] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Copy Selectors 3 wording into 2.1 for issue 143
  228. # [18:59] <ChrisL> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-148
  229. # [19:00] <ChrisL> Add 'unicode-bidi: embed' should be there
  230. # [19:00] <fantasai> dbaron: It was removed in the first WD of 2.1, but I can't find a record of why.
  231. # [19:01] <ChrisL> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-156
  232. # [19:01] <fantasai> ChrisL: It might have been removed because someone didn't understand why it was there. We all agree it should be there, so let's put iback in
  233. # [19:01] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept proposal for 148
  234. # [19:01] <dbaron> So I think the reason it might have been taken out was concern about embedding levels bumping above 63.
  235. # [19:02] <fantasai> Hm, yes, but we should have wording to prevent embedding levels from increasing on blocks
  236. # [19:02] <fantasai> Issue 156 was resolved at F2F, resolution was not copied into issues list.
  237. # [19:03] * ChrisL vendor prefixes considered harmful
  238. # [19:03] <fantasai> glazou: Please review the vendor prefixes thread so we can discuss it.
  239. # [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  240. # [19:03] <fantasai> arron: Please everyone take a look through the unowned issues
  241. # [19:03] <Zakim> -smfr
  242. # [19:03] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  243. # [19:03] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  244. # [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
  245. # [19:03] <Zakim> -arronei
  246. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dethbakin
  247. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
  248. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Bert
  249. # [19:03] <Zakim> -glazou
  250. # [19:03] <Zakim> -bradk
  251. # [19:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  252. # [19:03] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, +95089aabb, +1.617.650.aacc, dethbakin, +1.415.920.aadd, +1.650.275.aaee, bradk, Bert, Michael_Cooper, ChrisL, arronei, David_Baron,
  253. # [19:03] <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aaff, smfr, SteveZ, +95089aagg, glazou
  254. # [19:11] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
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  256. # [19:19] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
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  259. # [19:26] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  260. # [19:34] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.111) (Client exited)
  261. # [19:34] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.117)
  262. # [19:41] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  263. # [19:41] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  264. # [19:55] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  265. # [19:55] * Quits: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.19.11) (Quit: dethbakin)
  266. # [20:27] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  267. # [20:58] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  268. # [20:58] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  269. # [22:00] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.224.63)
  270. # [22:03] * Joins: ChrisL2 (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  271. # [22:03] * Quits: ChrisL2 (ChrisL@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  272. # [23:05] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  273. # [23:11] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.224.63) (Quit: jdaggett)
  274. # [23:49] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@63.118.167.240) (Quit: dsinger)
  275. # Session Close: Thu May 13 00:00:00 2010

The end :)