/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-05-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 18 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  26. # [10:35] <boblet> I’m doing a little mobile thing, and having trouble because there seems to be no way to get device ppi, which makes a big difference in how big stuff is on high-rez displays
  27. # [10:37] <boblet> if fixed units like cm were calculated (and not derived from 96dpi) then they’d be usable for detecting ppi
  28. # [10:37] <boblet> without that or another way to detect I’m doomed to browser sniffing if viewport isn’t declared
  29. # [10:39] <boblet> or Android actually supports SVG, which would be perfect for resolution-independent things on mobile… :-|
  30. # [10:39] <boblet> is there a good reason why fixed units are derived not calculated?
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  33. # [10:45] <fantasai> boblet: That's actually a huge debate right now.
  34. # [10:45] <fantasai> boblet: The physical units were supposed to be absolute
  35. # [10:46] <fantasai> boblet: But that wasn't implemented in most browsers (mozilla's the exception, iirc it tries to get it right)
  36. # [10:46] <fantasai> boblet: And now there are a lot of web pages that depend on the assumption that we're using 96dpip
  37. # [10:47] <fantasai> boblet: The CSSWG currently has an issue open on whether to codify that assumption
  38. # [10:47] * Joins: oli (oli@124.87.135.239)
  39. # [10:48] <fantasai> boblet: And make physical units relative to px instead of making them absolute
  40. # [10:49] <fantasai> boblet: What, exactly, are you needing absolute units for?
  41. # [10:49] <boblet> hold on a sec…
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  43. # [10:50] * oli is now known as boblet
  44. # [10:50] <boblet> back :)
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  46. # [10:51] <boblet> fantasai: doing something that I’d like to work on mobile phones and tablets. as Android doesn’t support SVG (facepalm) I’ll need some images
  47. # [10:53] <boblet> but eg a usable button on various devices ranges massively; if viewport="1" an iPhone is 44px, an iPad is 36px and a Nexus One is 67px
  48. # [10:57] <boblet> even worse with no viewport iPhone = 135px, ipad = 45px and nexus one = 112px. this is to make buttons that appear the same size
  49. # [10:58] <fantasai> hm
  50. # [10:59] <fantasai> Media Queries might help, but you're right, it's not ideal.
  51. # [10:59] <boblet> knowing the ppi of the device we can make sure interface elements like buttons are the same size (ie usable). ideally this should be accessible via JS like screen width
  52. # [11:00] <fantasai> boblet: Have you looked at the Media Queries spec? http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/
  53. # [11:00] <fantasai> boblet: It should let you query the resolution
  54. # [11:00] <fantasai> boblet: as well as the viewport size
  55. # [11:03] <boblet> we can get how many pixels the screen is, but given different ppi all bets are off. eg if the next iPhone is double the resolution as some ppl are rumoring, suddenly we’ve got twice the ppi in the same size screen. if we could get viewport size in physical dimensions that’d be great, but again it’s calculated not actual
  56. # [11:04] <fantasai> You should be able to get the viewport size in physical dimensions
  57. # [11:04] <fantasai> If that's not the case, then WebKit has a bug
  58. # [11:07] <fantasai> I suppose either way, we should be defining the interaction of media queries and zooming features
  59. # [11:07] <boblet> how can I get the viewport size in physical dimensions?
  60. # [11:07] <fantasai> instead of using px, use cm or something
  61. # [11:08] <fantasai> There's an example, @media screen and (min-width: 400px) and (max-width: 700px)
  62. # [11:08] <fantasai> You could do, e.g., @media screen and (min-width: 4in) and (max-width: 7in)
  63. # [11:08] <boblet> I’ll have another look, but I’m under the impression that using cm we basically had the same problem that cm are calculated from a 96dpi base
  64. # [11:08] <fantasai> I'm sure that's the case for lengths in the document
  65. # [11:09] <boblet> i only tried via JS tho, so will check @media
  66. # [11:09] <fantasai> it might not be the case with media queries
  67. # [11:09] <fantasai> if it is, report back here and I'll make sure the devs hear about it :)
  68. # [11:09] <fantasai> because that would pretty much defeat the whole purpose
  69. # [11:09] <boblet> thanks :) honestly, desktop web devs don’t know how easy they have it ;-)
  70. # [11:10] <fantasai> hehe
  71. # [11:10] <boblet> mobile = world of pain, even with smartphones
  72. # [11:33] <boblet> fantasai: on iphone simulator the absolute length value is converted to px at 96dpi
  73. # [11:37] <fantasai> ok
  74. # [11:38] <fantasai> I'll take that back to the WG.
  75. # [11:38] <fantasai> Seems very wrong to me
  76. # [11:40] <fantasai> If you've got any other comments, let me know. I think I might go to bed soon, but I'll check the IRC logs tomorrow morning.
  77. # [11:40] <anne> I think px and cm and all should work the same everywhere, including in Media Queries
  78. # [11:40] <boblet> getting a post written atm, but given 100mm @ 96dpi = 377.952755905512 pixels, Viewport set to 377 pixels returns red background on iPhone with 165dpi, and Viewport set to 378px returns white background with @media screen and (max-width: 100mm) { body {background-color: red;} }
  79. # [11:40] <anne> seems very wrong to me anyway if they would be different depending on context
  80. # [11:40] <fantasai> that's an issue, too
  81. # [11:41] <fantasai> but media queries aren't doing what they're supposed to do if you have no way of getting the measurements they were designed to allow
  82. # [11:41] <fantasai> finding out the actual size of the viewport is an important use case
  83. # [11:41] <boblet> also, the reason that JS giving ppi would be better is eg using an iframe to add content to a different site
  84. # [11:42] <boblet> at that stage I’m not sure if we can even use @media
  85. # [11:42] <fantasai> I'm not following
  86. # [11:42] <boblet> fantasai: for this project, you have no idea how important :-|
  87. # [11:43] <fantasai> boblet: what does an iframe have to do with anything?
  88. # [11:44] <fantasai> boblet: I mean, how is it a different problem
  89. # [11:44] <fantasai> ?
  90. # [11:44] <boblet> sorry, I meant to say that it’s not even a page that I’m serving
  91. # [11:45] <boblet> it’s for a service that adds a popup to a client website (imported via JS that the client adds). actually don’t think we’re using iframe
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  120. # [23:00] <DanC> ruleset : selector? '{' S* declaration? [ ';' S* declaration? ]* '}' S*;
  121. # [23:00] <DanC> what does a ruleset with no selector mean?
  122. # [23:00] <DanC> I can't find anything about it in the spec
  123. # [23:01] <DanC> the selector is not optional in 4.1.7: "A rule set (also called "rule") consists of a selector followed by a declaration block."
  124. # [23:01] <DanC> and there's no empty selector
  125. # [23:02] <DanC> the current CSS validator gives a Parse Error
  126. # [23:02] <DanC> for: { color: blue }
  127. # [23:34] * Joins: fantasai_ (fantasai@76.14.72.206)
  128. # [23:39] <fantasai> DanC: Post an issue to www-style? That doesn't make sense to me either, but maybe Bert has a clue.
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  130. # [23:40] <DanC> I have a long list of things to mail www-style about, by now
  131. # [23:40] <fantasai> heh
  132. # [23:40] <DanC> I'm using @todo's in my code
  133. # [23:42] <DanC> I'm learning that the core grammar is of little value
  134. # Session Close: Wed May 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)