/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-05-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 26 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  33. # [17:38] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/26-CSS-irc
  34. # [17:38] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  35. # [17:38] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
  36. # [17:38] <glazou> rrsagent, make logs public
  37. # [17:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  38. # [17:38] * glazou is now known as glazou_brb
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  40. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  41. # [17:58] <Zakim> +plinss
  42. # [17:59] * glazou_brb is now known as glazou
  43. # [17:59] <Zakim> +glazou
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  45. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +49.238.aaaa
  46. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is CesarAcebal
  47. # [18:01] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  48. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
  49. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  50. # [18:02] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  51. # [18:02] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  52. # [18:02] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
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  55. # [18:02] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  56. # [18:04] <Zakim> +smfr
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  58. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P21
  59. # [18:06] <fantasai> Zakim, ? is me
  60. # [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  61. # [18:06] <bradk> why does my phone have to be difficult?
  62. # [18:07] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  63. # [18:07] <Zakim> +bradk
  64. # [18:07] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: CesarAcebal (24%), TabAtkins (14%), bradk (4%)
  65. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  66. # [18:07] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@131.107.0.116)
  67. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> glazou: first item is about adding murakami-san as new editor for css3 lists.
  68. # [18:08] <fantasai> +!
  69. # [18:08] * Zakim wonders where ! is
  70. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> glazou: any objection?
  71. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Murakami-san added as 3rd editor of css3 lists
  72. # [18:08] <murakami> thanks
  73. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> glazou: First lets review the issues for everyone.
  74. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: dbaron is not on the call yet.
  75. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: elika?
  76. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I haven't done any work on issues yet.
  77. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: When will you?
  78. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Early june, as I reported last week.
  79. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> glazou: Sylvain?
  80. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Anton got back to me; we're basically done, but he's asking me to reconsider something. I need to read through the whole thread which is very time-consuming.
  81. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> glazou: You're confident you can have a proposal for the issue by next week?
  82. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Yes.
  83. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> glazou: Bert?
  84. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> Bert: I did 119 just now.
  85. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aabb
  86. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Bert: 120 and 122 are being added. I don't think they need further discussion, though.
  87. # [18:11] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is howcome
  88. # [18:11] <Zakim> +howcome; got it
  89. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> glazou: arron?
  90. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> arronei: Created test cases, but had some problems with uploading them last night; access was blocked for some reason.
  91. # [18:11] <Bert> s/they need/any of the others need/
  92. # [18:12] <Bert> s/122/121/
  93. # [18:12] * alexmog is on the phone with Arron. hi everyone
  94. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> glazou: tab?
  95. # [18:13] <bradk> that typing is really loud. Not that I'm complaining about a person other than me scribing.
  96. # [18:13] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-138
  97. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'm still discussing issue 161 with boris, but I think I'm finally to a point where he's happy with the wording (even if not with the proposal itself). I should have it wrapped up this week.
  98. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> glazou: issue 138
  99. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think that what fantasai explained as what it's "trying to say" is correct, but as boris says, we need to clarify it.
  100. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> fantasai: What about abspos?
  101. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Abspos elements act like blocks anyway, so that case should be less ambiguous.
  102. # [18:17] <fantasai> So we want something like appending "If any floats are contained by the anonymous box, then those floats are shifted, too."
  103. # [18:17] <fantasai> ?
  104. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> glazou: Who volunteers to write a proposal?
  105. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I'll try it out.
  106. # [18:17] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-139
  107. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> ACTION Tab: Write proposal for issue 138
  108. # [18:17] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  109. # [18:17] * RRSAgent records action 1
  110. # [18:17] <trackbot> Created ACTION-232 - Write proposal for issue 138 [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-02].
  111. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> glazou: Next, issue 139, a grammar issue.
  112. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Did we agree that that's a valid report? If so, then it's clearly an error - the escape character should never appear unescaped.
  113. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> glazou: Any objections?
  114. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept Yves's proposal for issue 139.
  115. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Bert: I'll make the edit.
  116. # [18:19] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-146
  117. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> glazou: Issue 146.
  118. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> glazou: Seems pretty simple. The marker box shouldn't be optional.
  119. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Are we going to accept elika's wording?
  120. # [18:21] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  121. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> fantasai: What do you mean?
  122. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> glazou: It can be more explicit. It should say "no marker when list-style-type:none", etc.
  123. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> fantasai: That's specified in the list section; this is the box generation section.
  124. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for issue 146.
  125. # [18:22] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
  126. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> glazou: Now to the issues with no owner at all. First is 118.
  127. # [18:24] * fantasai wishes dbaron was here
  128. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> Bert: It's imprecise. The glyphs aren't centered, the "em box" is.
  129. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, not sure if we want to use the *term* "em box", but that's definitely the idea we're shooting for.
  130. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> fantasai: What other term would we use?
  131. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: What about inline-blocks?
  132. # [18:27] * Joins: howcome (howcome@77.16.255.168)
  133. # [18:27] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  134. # [18:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, CesarAcebal, Bert, arronei, TabAtkins, sylvaing, smfr, fantasai, bradk, howcome
  135. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> fantasai: This section is about text; you need the assumption of a font for this to make sense.
  136. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> bradk: Some glyphs are taller than others.
  137. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yeah, but their em boxes are the same if their font-size is.
  138. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> bradk: Do we define "em box" anywhere?
  139. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: No. It's a standard definition in fonts, but we should probably add a token definition of it.
  140. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> glazou: So we more or less agree; who's going to write the proposal?
  141. # [18:28] <sylvaing> thought the leading was line-height-font-size and went on top/bottom of the content area where the glyphs go
  142. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Bert: I guess we need some text that says we assume each glyph is defined relative to an "em box".
  143. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> fantasai: And we assume that the font-size is mapped to the em box.
  144. # [18:29] <fantasai> or rather, the em box is mapped to the font size
  145. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> ACTION Bert: Write proposal for issue 118.
  146. # [18:29] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  147. # [18:29] * RRSAgent records action 2
  148. # [18:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-233 - Write proposal for issue 118. [on Bert Bos - due 2010-06-02].
  149. # [18:30] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-122
  150. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> glazou: Next is issue 122, related to fonts.
  151. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> glazou: Reporter complains that the spec is redefining what "serif" and "sans serif" means.
  152. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> glazou: And we have a proposal from dbaron to solve that.
  153. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Agreed with dbaron's proposal - fonts already know if they're serif or whatever, and we can just have a weak description of what the terms mean.
  154. # [18:31] <howcome> http://somuchpun.com/?s=serif
  155. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept dbaron's proposal to resolve issue 122.
  156. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> ACTION Tab: Propose text for resolving issue 122.
  157. # [18:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  158. # [18:32] * RRSAgent records action 3
  159. # [18:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-234 - Propose text for resolving issue 122. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-02].
  160. # [18:32] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-140
  161. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think david's proposal makes sense - it's probably the only way to solve this problem.
  162. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I don't have a deep enough understanding of the core grammar to know how good of a solution dbaron's proposal is, or what a better one is.
  163. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Bert: Another option, certainly, is to change the example that spawned the issue, and remove the braces from between the parens?
  164. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> glazou: People could still write that sort of thing, correct?
  165. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Bert: Right, people can write things that can't be tokenized, and we just don't know what to do with them.
  166. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> glazou: I don't think that's a good enough solution.
  167. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> Bert: Do we want to define the meaning of every possible bytestream? I don't think that's needed.
  168. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> glazou: I think it would be useful. ^_^
  169. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> glazou: I recommend waiting for dbaron to attend a call and get his input.
  170. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Bert: It's probably okay to allow braces inside parens, but I'm still a little bit afraid.
  171. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> glazou: We'll revisit next week, and move on for now.
  172. # [18:38] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-142
  173. # [18:39] * sylvaing the Boris/Tab thread is the bomb
  174. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: We do need a definition of what the "ancestor box" is, because Boris and I disagreed on that while discussing my abspos-in-tables issue.
  175. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> glazou: So what's suggested to rewrite?
  176. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> Bert: Make it clear what the ancestor box is in all contexts.
  177. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Boris says 3 instances, and I'd *like* to depend on the definition of "ancestor box" in my table issue too.
  178. # [18:41] * sylvaing does, in his weaker moments, hope CSS gives box generation the HTML5 parsing algorithm treatment.
  179. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> Bert: If it's only in chapter 10, i can do it.
  180. # [18:41] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-144
  181. # [18:41] * TabAtkins wants to do that too.
  182. # [18:42] <smfr> yep
  183. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I don't think we need to worry about 144 - it's pointed out that the reporter's results were from looking at it in quirks mode; the spec defines it precisely and all browsers agree in standards mode.
  184. # [18:42] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-145
  185. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> glazou: So no action on this. Any objections?
  186. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: No action on 144 - not a problem.
  187. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> fantasai: The i18nWG has been going back and forth on issue 145 for a while.
  188. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> fantasai: We probably need to defer this for them.
  189. # [18:44] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-147
  190. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: i18n is having a meeting for bidi in html second week of june that elika and i are attending. We can make sure it's discussed then.
  191. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It makes sense to recommend scaling for images, but not necessarily for java applets, etc.
  192. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Sometimes you just want to rescale the box and just tell the replaced element to redraw itself in the new space.
  193. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Frex, java applet or iframe.
  194. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> fantasai: So I don't think it makes sense to specify how a replaced element draws in normative terms here.
  195. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Agreed.
  196. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: No change for issue 147
  197. # [18:47] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-153
  198. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think the test case just needs to be updated, no spec change, right?
  199. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> glazou: elika says the spec is vague.
  200. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Ah, yes, I see that now.
  201. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> glazou: Any objections to elika's proposal?
  202. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> arronei: That means the test case needs to be updated too.
  203. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Elika already provided an updated test case.
  204. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Accept Elika's proposal to resolve issue 153.
  205. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Action Elika: Write text for 153.
  206. # [18:50] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  207. # [18:50] * RRSAgent records action 4
  208. # [18:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-235 - Write text for 153. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-06-02].
  209. # [18:51] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0322.html
  210. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Wrt the previous issue, 147, there's an email not tracked in the issue list pointing out a sentence that doesn't make any sense at all.
  211. # [18:52] * sylvaing YES! I could never understand this.
  212. # [18:52] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it should be removed, and Tantek agrees.
  213. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Bert: I don't see what's wrong with it.
  214. # [18:52] * sylvaing ...now imagine documenting to the EU whether/how you comply with this one
  215. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you specify a height, the width of the replaced element's box may not be intrinsic.
  216. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Bert: Oh, in that sense.
  217. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> fantasai: It's weird, and it doesn't add anything since everything is otherwise specified. So I think we should just remove it.
  218. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Remove the offending sentence in visudet.
  219. # [18:54] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-157
  220. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I don't think it's circular. I think it can look like it to a surface reading, but it's just a statement of constraints.
  221. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> glazou: dbaron and bert have long messages explaining why it's not circular.
  222. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Bert has a nice examle that I think would clarify things.
  223. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> glazou: Can you add the example to the spec?
  224. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: Add Bert's example about clearance, otherwise no change for issue 157.
  225. # [18:56] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-158
  226. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> ACTION Bert: Add example about clearance for issue 157.
  227. # [18:56] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  228. # [18:56] * RRSAgent records action 5
  229. # [18:56] <trackbot> Created ACTION-236 - Add example about clearance for issue 157. [on Bert Bos - due 2010-06-02].
  230. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: This isn't even a change, just a clarification.
  231. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> ACTION Tab: Suggest text to resolve issue 158.
  232. # [18:59] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  233. # [18:59] * RRSAgent records action 6
  234. # [18:59] <trackbot> Created ACTION-237 - Suggest text to resolve issue 158. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-02].
  235. # [18:59] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
  236. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: dbaron already has some rough text to resolve the issue.
  237. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I can take this; I'll probably be doing other margin-related things anyway.
  238. # [19:00] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-114
  239. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> ACTION Elika: Propose text to resolve 114.
  240. # [19:00] * RRSAgent records action 7
  241. # [19:00] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  242. # [19:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-238 - Propose text to resolve 114. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-06-02].
  243. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> glazou: Anyone know what SVG is doing about 114?
  244. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> arronei: Chris sent me a message about it yesterday.
  245. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> glazou: So they're working on it, excellent.
  246. # [19:02] <Zakim> -arronei
  247. # [19:02] <Zakim> -smfr
  248. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  249. # [19:02] * Parts: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  250. # [19:02] * fantasai will not be on the call next week
  251. # [19:02] <Zakim> -howcome
  252. # [19:02] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  253. # [19:02] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  254. # [19:02] <Zakim> -bradk
  255. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Bert
  256. # [19:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone
  257. # [19:02] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', glazou
  258. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Zakim, who's here?
  259. # [19:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, TabAtkins, sylvaing
  260. # [19:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see howcome, alexmog, murakami, oyvind, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Curt`, DanC, CesarAcebal, plinss_, arronei, anne, krijnh, Hixie, karl, lhnz, jdaggett_afk,
  261. # [19:03] <Zakim> ... lgombos, TabAtkins, jgraham, fantasai, plinss, Bert, trackbot
  262. # [19:03] <plinss_> zakim, drop sylvaing
  263. # [19:03] <Zakim> sylvaing is being disconnected
  264. # [19:03] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  265. # [19:07] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  266. # [19:07] <Zakim> -glazou
  267. # [19:07] <Zakim> -plinss
  268. # [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  269. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, glazou, +49.238.aaaa, CesarAcebal, Bert, TabAtkins, arronei, sylvaing, smfr, fantasai, bradk, +47.23.69.aabb, howcome
  270. # [19:07] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@193.51.208.72) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
  271. # [19:07] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  272. # [19:09] * Parts: murakami (murakami@118.154.209.3) (Leaving...)
  273. # [19:11] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.69) (Ping timeout)
  274. # [19:11] * Quits: howcome (howcome@77.16.255.168) (Ping timeout)
  275. # [19:16] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.81)
  276. # [19:19] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  277. # [19:24] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  278. # [21:20] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  279. # [21:20] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  280. # [22:00] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.224.63)
  281. # [23:05] * Quits: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.224.63) (Ping timeout)
  282. # [23:06] * Joins: jdaggett (jdaggett@118.243.224.63)
  283. # [23:19] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.59.50)
  284. # [23:20] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  285. # Session Close: Thu May 27 00:00:00 2010

The end :)