/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-06-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 23 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  28. # [17:09] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-CSS-irc
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  31. # [17:56] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
  32. # [17:56] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
  33. # [17:56] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
  34. # [17:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
  35. # [17:56] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  36. # [17:57] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  37. # [17:58] <glazou> hi plinss
  38. # [17:59] <plinss> hello
  39. # [18:00] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  40. # [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  41. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
  42. # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, aaaa has plinss
  43. # [18:01] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  44. # [18:01] * Joins: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  45. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, aaa has glazou
  46. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
  47. # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, aaaa has galzou
  48. # [18:01] <Zakim> +galzou; got it
  49. # [18:01] <glazou> lol
  50. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, galzou is me
  51. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'galzou'
  52. # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  53. # [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.858.216.aaaa
  54. # [18:01] <Zakim> +1.858.216.aaaa has galzou
  55. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aabb
  56. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aacc
  57. # [18:02] <tabatkins> Zakim, aacc is me.
  58. # [18:02] <Zakim> +tabatkins; got it
  59. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  60. # [18:02] <dethbakin> Zakim, Apple has dethbakin
  61. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  62. # [18:02] <bradk> Zakim, aabb is me
  63. # [18:02] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  64. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is [plinss]
  65. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[plinss]; got it
  66. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, [plinss] has glazou
  67. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  68. # [18:02] <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
  69. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see [plinss], bradk, tabatkins, [Apple]
  70. # [18:02] <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
  71. # [18:02] <Zakim> [Apple] has dethbakin
  72. # [18:03] * bradk thinks aabb is me anyway.
  73. # [18:03] <Zakim> +fantasai
  74. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aadd
  75. # [18:03] <sylvaing> Zakim, aadd is sylvaing
  76. # [18:04] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  77. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, aabb is bradk
  78. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  79. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, your sick bridges turn you mad
  80. # [18:04] <Zakim> I don't understand 'your sick bridges turn you mad', glazou
  81. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaee
  82. # [18:05] <bradk> Za-kim has me, unless Tab and I got ourselves mixed up (same area code appearing at about same time)
  83. # [18:05] <smfr> Zakim, aaee is me
  84. # [18:05] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  85. # [18:05] <glazou> sylvaing: almost turned JSCSSP into a CSS 3 validator...
  86. # [18:06] <tabatkins> zakim, mute tabatkins
  87. # [18:06] <Zakim> tabatkins should now be muted
  88. # [18:07] <tabatkins> zakim, unmute tabatkins
  89. # [18:07] <Zakim> tabatkins should no longer be muted
  90. # [18:07] * tabatkins has established that the phone numbers were apportioned correctly.
  91. # [18:07] <sylvaing> glazou: we need eCSSxtender to use your parser. Darn thing uses regex <shudder>
  92. # [18:07] <bradk> :)
  93. # [18:07] <glazou> sylvaing: yeah, I am implementing my own when I save a stylesheet :-)
  94. # [18:08] <glazou> but no solution for inline styles still rendering engines use a serialized version of inline styles there
  95. # [18:08] <tabatkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
  96. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  97. # [18:09] <tabatkins> glazou: Elika, test suite status?
  98. # [18:09] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242)
  99. # [18:09] <tabatkins> fantasai: Status is we published alpha 3 last week. There's a bunch of moz tests that still need to be imported. Aaron says he's fixed the ones that were wrong, but there still might be one or two problems.
  100. # [18:10] <tabatkins> fantasai: I'll try and publish beta 1 next week, and we'll ask people to review them and make sure everyone is happy getting implementation reports based on them.
  101. # [18:10] <tabatkins> fantasai: We plan to get implementation reports in before the ftf.
  102. # [18:10] <tabatkins> fantasai: We plan to publish on a 3week cycle.
  103. # [18:10] <tabatkins> glazou: You tweeted something about reftests. Is that related?
  104. # [18:10] <tabatkins> fantasai: No, that was me working with moz stuff.
  105. # [18:11] <tabatkins> glazou: We have roughly 20 issues that are still undiscussed or lack a proposal.
  106. # [18:11] <tabatkins> glazou: I think the first one up is issue 53.
  107. # [18:11] <tabatkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jun/0227.html
  108. # [18:11] <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-53
  109. # [18:12] <tabatkins> glazou: Elika, this is something you posted.
  110. # [18:13] <tabatkins> tabatkins: Elika's proposal sounds great, that glyphs and whitespace in pre aren't altered for justification purposes.
  111. # [18:13] <tabatkins> szilles: So that says that pre is more powerful than justification?
  112. # [18:13] <tabatkins> glazou: Yes.
  113. # [18:14] <tabatkins> fantasai: I don't quite understand why you can't justify pre-wrap, since it wraps, but I'd be fine with something that just said you can't stretch spaces.
  114. # [18:14] <tabatkins> szilles: I thought that if the spacing are there even with the wrap, you might have columns that you don't want to go jagged.
  115. # [18:15] <sylvaing> you don't want to mess up Bert's ASCII art. Or Hixie's cat.
  116. # [18:15] <tabatkins> szilles: It seems odd anyway to have both pre and justify on an element.
  117. # [18:15] <tabatkins> tabatkins: You may have an inline with pre embedded in a justified element.
  118. # [18:15] <tabatkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0457.html
  119. # [18:15] <tabatkins> ^^^ proposed solution
  120. # [18:17] <tabatkins> fantasai: We usually write plaintext in monospace to get things to line up. But if you're using pre-wrap, maybe you're just writing paragraphs, and would be okay with justifying.
  121. # [18:17] <tabatkins> fantasai: pre-line is definitely wrong in the spec and should be fixed. But pre-wrap, I'm not sure of.
  122. # [18:17] <tabatkins> fantasai: One thing we could say is that you're not required to justify in preformatted elements.
  123. # [18:17] <tabatkins> fantasai: And then maybe in css3 text we can clarify it more precisely.
  124. # [18:18] <tabatkins> glazou: I like that.
  125. # [18:18] <tabatkins> bradk: Are the other text-align values okay?
  126. # [18:18] <tabatkins> tabatkins: According to the proposal on the table, no, you can't right-align pre text.
  127. # [18:18] <tabatkins> tabatkins: Nm, I'm misreading.
  128. # [18:19] <tabatkins> glazou: Any particular objections to the proposal on the table?
  129. # [18:19] <tabatkins> tabatkins: Elika has a possible objection for the pre-wrap text.
  130. # [18:19] <tabatkins> glazou: I'll ping Thunderbird people for an answer on what's acceptable to them, since it may affect email.
  131. # [18:20] <tabatkins> ACTION Daniel: Ping Thunderbird for their input on how the changes to the spec around pre/pre-wrap and justification may affect email.
  132. # [18:20] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  133. # [18:20] * RRSAgent records action 1
  134. # [18:20] <trackbot> Created ACTION-240 - Ping Thunderbird for their input on how the changes to the spec around pre/pre-wrap and justification may affect email. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-06-30].
  135. # [18:21] <tabatkins> fantasai: We can just say that justification isn't required.
  136. # [18:21] <tabatkins> tabatkins: I'd prefer not having it be impl-defined.
  137. # [18:22] <tabatkins> sylvaing: If the impls are disagreeing today, isn't it possible that email clients right now are having problems?
  138. # [18:22] <tabatkins> tabatkins: Only if they're mixing it with justification, which I doubt anyone is right now.
  139. # [18:22] <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue is 101, assigned to dbaron.
  140. # [18:22] <tabatkins> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
  141. # [18:23] <tabatkins> Next one for the wg is 107.
  142. # [18:23] <tabatkins> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-107
  143. # [18:24] <tabatkins> fantasai: The cases that this affects are where you're inheriting top/bottom/left/right, which almost nobody does.
  144. # [18:24] <tabatkins> fantasai: The proposal is to clarify the spec so that it's consistent with impls.
  145. # [18:25] <tabatkins> glazou: And all impls do the same thing?
  146. # [18:25] <tabatkins> fantasai: Yeah, me and aaron put some testcases.
  147. # [18:26] <tabatkins> fantasai: And this is such a minor issue that I doubt it matters what we actually do, so long as it's specified.
  148. # [18:26] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 107.
  149. # [18:26] <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 110, on Tab.
  150. # [18:26] <tabatkins> tabatkins: Haven't been able to write up a new proposal, sorry.
  151. # [18:26] <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 120.
  152. # [18:27] <tabatkins> fantasai: That'll take a while, since I have to go through the whole spec.
  153. # [18:27] <tabatkins> fantasai: There are like 4 issues on me that I need to deal with still.
  154. # [18:27] <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 138, on tab.
  155. # [18:28] <tabatkins> tabatkins: I wrote a proposal some time ago, I just didn't put it on the wiki. I've done that now.
  156. # [18:28] <tabatkins> glazou: Everyone, read that and review for decision soon.
  157. # [18:29] <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 145.
  158. # [18:29] <tabatkins> tabatkins: I recall us discussing that during the BIDI meeting.
  159. # [18:29] <tabatkins> fantasai: Proposal on the table addressing the issue I identified during the bidi meeting.
  160. # [18:30] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 145.
  161. # [18:30] <tabatkins> glazou: Next on the agenda is issue 149.
  162. # [18:32] <tabatkins> szilles: I don't see any possible way to have this resolve any other way.
  163. # [18:32] <tabatkins> glazou: At some point we have to decide, and I think the WG decided.
  164. # [18:33] <tabatkins> sylvaing: I think the only problem here is that Bert is the gatekeeper of the spec.
  165. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai: The issue we haven't discussed here is how this affects Media Queries
  166. # [18:34] <tabatkins> fantasai: Frex, on an iphone with a width 2in media query, when does it say yes/no?
  167. # [18:36] <tabatkins> sylvaing: For example, at first a webpage on the iphone is zoomed out and full-size, but when you pinch and zoom in, you dont' want the media query to suddenly change, since the webpage is still theoretically the same size.
  168. # [18:36] <tabatkins> glazou: Can we just resolve this on media queries?
  169. # [18:37] <tabatkins> sylvaing: If we accept the proposal now, we should go ahead and file an issue on media queries, since it's in CR right now.
  170. # [18:37] <tabatkins> glazou: So, objections on the proposal?
  171. # [18:38] * fantasai abstains from this discussion
  172. # [18:38] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal to resolve issue 149.
  173. # [18:38] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Issue on MQ about possible problems with Media Queries, physical dimenions, and screen sizes.
  174. # [18:38] <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue, 151.
  175. # [18:39] <tabatkins> fantasai: SVG wants their presentational attributes treated as presentational hints, not as ua stylesheet rules.
  176. # [18:39] <tabatkins> fantasai: But right now CSS defines otherwise.
  177. # [18:39] <tabatkins> fantasai: So this proposal alters the spec to allow XML languages to have their presentational attributes either be on the preshint level or the ua stylesheet level.
  178. # [18:40] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal to resolve issue 151.
  179. # [18:40] <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 153.
  180. # [18:42] <tabatkins> fantasai: If you're aligning a replaced alignment to the baseline, it's easy and defined. But for any other alignment, it's unclear which box of the replaced element should be used.
  181. # [18:42] <tabatkins> correction: inline non-replaced elements.
  182. # [18:43] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  183. # [18:43] <tabatkins> fantasai: I could try and spend more time on getting a proper definition, but I don't know if we could impls in time for CR.
  184. # [18:44] * fantasai we should add a note that it would be defined in CSS3
  185. # [18:44] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  186. # [18:44] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 153.
  187. # [18:44] <tabatkins> dbaron: I was just looking at IRC, and I don't think it needs to be undefined.
  188. # [18:44] <tabatkins> dbaron: I think it might have been clearer in CSS1, but I think it was well-defined somewhere.
  189. # [18:44] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: ignore previous resolution
  190. # [18:45] <tabatkins> ACTION David: Produce a proposal for issue 153.
  191. # [18:45] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  192. # [18:45] * RRSAgent records action 2
  193. # [18:45] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
  194. # [18:45] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. hyatt, dbaron, dsinger2)
  195. # [18:45] <tabatkins> ACTION dbaron: Produce a proposal for issue 153.
  196. # [18:45] * RRSAgent records action 3
  197. # [18:45] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  198. # [18:45] <trackbot> Created ACTION-241 - Produce a proposal for issue 153. [on David Baron - due 2010-06-30].
  199. # [18:45] * fantasai doesn't know what the "proposal" tab is talking about is
  200. # [18:46] <glazou> current issue is 158
  201. # [18:46] <tabatkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0124.html
  202. # [18:47] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  203. # [18:47] <tabatkins> I think ^^^ is okay, but I'm still unsure of the exact desired rendering of a particular edge case, so I'm not sure if fantasai's suggestion fits or not.
  204. # [18:47] <fantasai> I can dig up the emails from when we originally came up with that issue
  205. # [18:47] <tabatkins> http://dbaron.org/css/test/2007/0329-blog-examples/1
  206. # [18:48] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007JanMar/0538.html
  207. # [18:49] <tabatkins> glazou: I suggest you two take the discussion offline and clarify this between yourselves.
  208. # [18:49] <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue is 159, for elika.
  209. # [18:50] <tabatkins> fantasai: I haven't gotten to that yet.
  210. # [18:50] <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-160
  211. # [18:51] <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 160. This should be easier to resolve.
  212. # [18:51] <tabatkins> glazou: The proposal seems to make perfect sense.
  213. # [18:51] <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 160.
  214. # [18:52] <fantasai> Not done yet
  215. # [18:52] <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 166, on Elika.
  216. # [18:52] <tabatkins> glazou: Clarify different uses of "property value" and "component value", and make a diff.
  217. # [18:53] <tabatkins> fantasai: Haven't been able to get to that yet.
  218. # [18:53] <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 167, backslash escapes.
  219. # [18:54] <tabatkins> glazou: So, where's the end of a stylesheet, if you "end" one with a backslash?
  220. # [18:55] <tabatkins> tabatkins: There isn't interop, so whatever we decide should be okay.
  221. # [18:55] * Quits: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.116) (Ping timeout)
  222. # [18:55] <tabatkins> tabatkins: I think it's just a matter of looking over Zack's proposed changes and ensuring they really do have only the minimal impact that he believes.
  223. # [18:56] <tabatkins> ACTION Daniel: Look over Zack's proposal for issue 167, ensure that it doesn't have any unwanted effects.
  224. # [18:56] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  225. # [18:56] * RRSAgent records action 4
  226. # [18:56] <trackbot> Created ACTION-242 - Look over Zack's proposal for issue 167, ensure that it doesn't have any unwanted effects. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-06-30].
  227. # [18:56] <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue, 170.
  228. # [18:56] <tabatkins> glazou: dbaron has listed 5 possibilities to resolve it.
  229. # [18:58] <tabatkins> dbaron: 6, counting the "leave it explicitly undefined" case.
  230. # [18:58] <tabatkins> bradk: Is there any interop on this?
  231. # [19:00] <tabatkins> ACTION Tab: Write some tests for issue 170, to see which option seems closest to impls.
  232. # [19:00] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  233. # [19:00] * RRSAgent records action 5
  234. # [19:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-243 - Write some tests for issue 170, to see which option seems closest to impls. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-30].
  235. # [19:00] <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 172.
  236. # [19:01] * Joins: arronei (arronei@131.107.0.111)
  237. # [19:01] <Zakim> -bradk
  238. # [19:01] <bradk> DOH. I got dropped.
  239. # [19:01] <tabatkins> I don't have a problem with it. Table captions are rare in the first place, and table captions that would overflow are even more so.
  240. # [19:02] <tabatkins> ACTION Elika: Propose wording for issue 172.
  241. # [19:02] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  242. # [19:02] * RRSAgent records action 6
  243. # [19:02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-244 - Propose wording for issue 172. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-06-30].
  244. # [19:02] <bradk> I'm fine with the proposal
  245. # [19:02] <Zakim> -smfr
  246. # [19:02] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  247. # [19:02] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  248. # [19:02] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  249. # [19:03] * Parts: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  250. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[plinss]
  251. # [19:03] <glazou> that was a very productive conf call I must say
  252. # [19:03] * Parts: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.17.128)
  253. # [19:03] <glazou> bye
  254. # [19:04] <bradk> bye
  255. # [19:04] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: glazou)
  256. # [19:04] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  257. # [19:05] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  258. # [19:06] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  259. # [19:09] <Zakim> -tabatkins
  260. # [19:09] <Zakim> -fantasai
  261. # [19:09] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  262. # [19:09] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, galzou, +1.650.275.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc, tabatkins, dethbakin, bradk, [plinss], glazou, fantasai, +1.206.324.aadd, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaee, smfr, SteveZ,
  263. # [19:09] <Zakim> ... David_Baron
  264. # [19:27] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Ping timeout)
  265. # [19:46] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  266. # [20:23] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  267. # [20:23] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  268. # [20:25] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Ping timeout)
  269. # [20:34] <fantasai> tabatkins: can you update the 2.1 issues list whenever you send in an issue proposal?
  270. # [20:37] <tabatkins> fantasai: Yeah, I need to remember to do so.
  271. # [20:37] <tabatkins> I'll update the issue list for 158 now.
  272. # [20:43] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  273. # [20:54] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  274. # [21:38] * Quits: plinss (plinss@68.107.116.23) (Quit: plinss)
  275. # [21:38] * plinss_ is now known as plinss
  276. # [21:44] * Joins: plinss_ (plinss@68.107.116.23)
  277. # [22:04] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  278. # [22:18] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  279. # [22:18] * Parts: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  280. # [22:53] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242) (Ping timeout)
  281. # [23:25] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  282. # [23:31] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  283. # Session Close: Thu Jun 24 00:00:00 2010

The end :)