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- # Session Start: Wed Jun 30 00:00:00 2010
- # Session Ident: #css
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- # [17:16] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-CSS-irc
- # [17:16] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
- # [17:16] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 46 minutes
- # [17:19] * glazou tests the european bridge...
- # [17:21] <glazou> ok, miracles are rare :-(
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- # [17:53] <glazou> hi plinss_
- # [17:55] * Joins: zwol (zack@63.245.220.240)
- # [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, code?
- # [17:56] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
- # [17:56] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [17:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
- # [17:58] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
- # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [17:58] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
- # [17:58] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
- # [17:58] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
- # [17:59] <plinss_> hello
- # [17:59] <bradk> hi
- # [17:59] <arronei> hi
- # [18:00] <zwol> hello
- # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaaa
- # [18:00] <bradk> zakim, aaaa is me
- # [18:00] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
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- # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
- # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
- # [18:01] <plinss_> zakim, aabb is [plinss]
- # [18:01] <Zakim> +[plinss]; got it
- # [18:02] <zwol> zakim, mozilla is me
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +zwol; got it
- # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aacc
- # [18:02] <zwol> (hopefully someone else from mozilla will also turn up :)
- # [18:02] <smfr> Zakim, aacc is me
- # [18:02] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
- # [18:03] <plinss_> zakim, [plinss] has glazou
- # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
- # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aadd
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- # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aaee
- # [18:04] <tabatkins> Zakim, aaee is me
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +tabatkins; got it
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- # [18:04] <Zakim> +dsinger
- # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, aadd is sylvaing
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
- # [18:04] * dsinger wow, it knows me!
- # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P18
- # [18:05] <smfr> echo ... echo ... echo
- # [18:05] <smfr> Zakim, mute glazou
- # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, smfr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to glazou
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- # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
- # [18:08] <sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
- # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [18:08] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
- # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see arronei, bradk, zwol, [plinss], smfr, sylvaing, tabatkins, dsinger, ??P18, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
- # [18:09] <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
- # [18:09] <Zakim> On IRC I see sylvaing, szilles, dsinger, oyvind, smfr, bradk, nimbupani, zwol, plinss_, glazou, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, karl, Bert, Curt`, anne, miketaylr, arronei, plinss,
- # [18:09] <Zakim> ... krijnh, lhnz, trackbot, tabatkins, Hixie, fantasai, jgraham
- # [18:09] * sylvaing actually met john once. he's real.
- # [18:09] <Zakim> +David_Baron
- # [18:09] * dsinger ??P18 is Elika?
- # [18:09] <sylvaing> topic: CSS2.1 test suite
- # [18:09] <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
- # [18:10] <sylvaing> fantasai: hoping to publish today but still working through testcases
- # [18:10] <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [plinss] (54%), ??P18 (9%), [Microsoft] (49%)
- # [18:10] <sylvaing> glazou: how many test updates do we need to make to account for issue resolutions ?
- # [18:10] <sylvaing> fantasai, arronei: it will take a few days to get caught up
- # [18:11] <sylvaing> glazou: so you're confident we are still on track for a september release
- # [18:11] <sylvaing> arronei, fantasai: yes
- # [18:11] <sylvaing> glazou: I think we should publish the CR and release the test suite together
- # [18:12] <sylvaing> glazou: topic now is implementation reports. when do browser vendors plan on producing them ?
- # [18:12] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.19.75)
- # [18:12] <sylvaing> fantasai: modulo spec edit updates, we have all the testcases that will be in the testsuite
- # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Apple]
- # [18:12] <dethbakin> Zakim, Apple has dethbakin
- # [18:12] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
- # [18:13] <sylvaing> fantasai: then we can track which testcases have changed so vendors know which to rerun
- # [18:13] <sylvaing> glazou: browser vendors, can you run the tests when the testsuite beta 1 is ready
- # [18:13] <sylvaing> arronei: msft has already started
- # [18:14] <Zakim> +Bert
- # [18:14] <sylvaing> simonfr: for webkit, we can start when the testcases are ready.
- # [18:15] <sylvaing> dbaron: it's hard to say
- # [18:15] <sylvaing> arronei: running the whole thing for one browser takes ~3 days to just record the results
- # [18:16] <sylvaing> smfr: do they need a manual run or are they automated ?
- # [18:16] <sylvaing> fantasai: some are (mozilla's reftests) but the bulk are manual
- # [18:17] <sylvaing> (talk about improving the harness)
- # [18:17] <sylvaing> glazou: next question is about the spec itself. we have made a lot of changes so we would back to LCWD, then CR with the test suite
- # [18:18] <sylvaing> glazou: the open question is the CR period which is usually 6 months, thus preventing us from reaching PR by end of year
- # [18:18] <sylvaing> glazou: note, that is important from a W3C point of view to reach PR by the end of the current charter
- # [18:18] <szilles> +1 for shorter CR
- # [18:18] <sylvaing> fantasai: given that the spec has been CR several times, I don't think we need a 6 months minimum
- # [18:19] <sylvaing> fantasai: we need enough time to generate impl. reports and analyze them
- # [18:19] <szilles> +1 for 3mo period
- # [18:19] <sylvaing> glazou: a 3 months period would be ideal
- # [18:19] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: next css21 CR period is 3 months
- # [18:20] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-26
- # [18:21] <sylvaing> bert: still have to edit it
- # [18:21] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-53
- # [18:21] <sylvaing> glazou: I'm waiting for answers from Thunderbird and others
- # [18:22] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-60
- # [18:22] <sylvaing> bert: I haven't done any review yet
- # [18:22] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
- # [18:23] <sylvaing> fantasai: we have the testcases for this one
- # [18:24] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-110
- # [18:25] <sylvaing> tab: I will try to finish this by next wednesday
- # [18:25] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
- # [18:27] <sylvaing> bert: I can finish this in the next 2 weeks
- # [18:28] <Zakim> -bradk
- # [18:28] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
- # [18:28] <sylvaing> fantasai: I have started and have general definitions. in progress. planning on working on it this week
- # [18:28] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-129
- # [18:28] <sylvaing> bert: no work on this one yet
- # [18:29] <sylvaing> bert: I can write a proposal this week
- # [18:29] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-136
- # [18:30] <sylvaing> (editorial, done)
- # [18:30] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-137
- # [18:30] <bradk> Google voice is not being nice to me
- # [18:31] <sylvaing> fantasai: I would add a sentence to the anonymous block section to have percentages resolved against the containing block before anonymous boxes are generated
- # [18:31] <sylvaing> dbaron: what other things is the idea of the containing block used for ?
- # [18:31] <sylvaing> tabatkins: percentages, positioning...anything else ?
- # [18:31] <Zakim> +bradk
- # [18:32] <sylvaing> dbaron: I suspect that in some cases implementations agree on anonymous boxes not being containing block at all. this might be worth writing testcases
- # [18:33] <sylvaing> (to be revisited next week)
- # [18:33] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-138
- # [18:34] <sylvaing> tabatkins: fantasai, I and I think authors agree on the proposal. dbaron's preference was more aligned with implementations
- # [18:35] <sylvaing> sylvaing: will it cause testcase failures for implementations ?
- # [18:35] <sylvaing> tabatkins: implementations all disagree today anyway
- # [18:36] <dbaron> I'm trying to remember what other issues were related to this issue from the time we decided to change the spec from what you want to say to what it currently says...
- # [18:37] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-140
- # [18:37] <dbaron> (I think this is a proposal to change the spec back to what it used to say.)
- # [18:37] <sylvaing> tabatkins: I believe we talked about this at the f2f.
- # [18:38] <sylvaing> (to be followed up)
- # [18:38] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-142
- # [18:39] <sylvaing> (target next week)
- # [18:39] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-153
- # [18:39] <sylvaing> dbaron: I think we need to clarify height the way it was in CSS2
- # [18:40] <sylvaing> (reads proposal)
- # [18:40] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0570.html
- # [18:42] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: accept dbaron's proposal for issue-153
- # [18:43] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-158
- # [18:43] <sylvaing> tabatkins: this really is about empty clearing elements
- # [18:44] <sylvaing> glazou: everyone to review, look again next week
- # [18:44] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-154
- # [18:44] * fantasai thinks you need two images
- # [18:45] <sylvaing> arronei: I am working with jdaggett on an image for this. but this could be left to CSS3 Fonts or CSS3 Text
- # [18:45] * dbaron wonders if any of the images in http://dbaron.org/css/2000/01/dibm would be useful
- # [18:45] <sylvaing> fantasai: you can't put some measurements on the same diagram
- # [18:45] <sylvaing> fantasai: it may be easier if it is split in two images
- # [18:46] <sylvaing> glazou: let's defer to next week then
- # [18:46] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
- # [18:46] <sylvaing> fantasai: not done yet. i'll get to it for next week
- # [18:47] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-166
- # [18:47] <sylvaing> fantasai: not done yet
- # [18:47] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
- # [18:48] <sylvaing> zwol: this one ties back to the tokenizer backup issue; whoever works on the latter should know they're closely related
- # [18:48] <zwol> I can summarize the proposal
- # [18:50] <dbaron> comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0658.html
- # [18:50] * zwol skims
- # [18:51] <sylvaing> (to be continued)
- # [18:51] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-170
- # [18:52] <zwol> bert: the thing you need to know for the backup issue, is that most of the changes to strings in my proposal were necessitated by \-EOF not having been defined.
- # [18:52] <sylvaing> glazou: authors would not expect these properties to have no effect imo
- # [18:52] <zwol> bert: also, when I wrote that, I didn't know that the prose defines the behavior of EOF within a comment. The grammar should still handle it, but whatever i said about it in that old message is probably wrong.
- # [18:53] <sylvaing> arronei: IE handles min-height but I believe no one handles max-height
- # [18:54] * glazou will need to leave precisely at the top of the hour
- # [18:54] <dbaron> I think gecko handles max-height as I described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0444.html
- # [18:55] <sylvaing> smfr: webkit seems to ignore min-height on table cells
- # [18:56] <sylvaing> tabatkins: I agree that I expect min/max-height to do something but I don't know what right now
- # [18:56] <sylvaing> glazou: bradk, tabatkins to review dbaron's proposal
- # [18:56] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-172
- # [18:56] <dbaron> Er, wait, when I was talking about Gecko's behavior I was thinking about what it does for min/max-width...
- # [18:57] <sylvaing> fantasai: not done yet
- # [18:57] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-173
- # [18:58] <sylvaing> fantasai: I think the original intention was that linebreaks had been normalized before whitespace processing rules were applied
- # [18:59] <sylvaing> fantasai: that is why CSS3 Text talks about linebreak characters
- # [19:00] <glazou> plinss_: I need to go in 2mns, can you finish for me please ?
- # [19:00] <plinss_> sure
- # [19:00] <glazou> plinss_: thanks, I'm leaving then ; sorry guys, I have to go
- # [19:01] * glazou left, bye
- # [19:01] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: run Daniel, run)
- # [19:02] <zwol> an interesting question for folks with the ability to grep the web, would be to see if there are real documents with CR-only (not CRLF) linebreaks in a context where those linebreaks must be honored (<pre>, to first order)
- # [19:03] <zwol> I mean the actual character, not an escape
- # [19:03] <fantasai> I'm quite sure there are
- # [19:04] <fantasai> that was the default line break character on Macs for a long time
- # [19:04] <fantasai> you'd get entire documents authored with only CRs as line breaks
- # [19:04] <zwol> s'true, but not since OSX, which is nearly ten years old now? so it seems like that would have to be very old content
- # [19:04] <sylvaing> IE6 is 10yo too (sigh)
- # [19:05] <zwol> (groan) point taken
- # [19:07] * Quits: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23) (Quit: smfr)
- # [19:08] <dbaron> zwol, but that's already handled by normalization that happens during parsing
- # [19:08] <dbaron> zwol, everything gets normalized to LF at parse time
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -smfr
- # [19:08] <sylvaing> plinss: we will rediscuss based on fantasai's new proposal
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple]
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -dsinger
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -David_Baron
- # [19:08] <Zakim> -arronei
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -sylvaing
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -tabatkins
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [19:09] <zwol> dbaron: i was thinking that if we no longer need that for webcompat, we could drop bare-CR from the normalization set
- # [19:09] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -[plinss]
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -??P18
- # [19:09] * dsinger bye!
- # [19:09] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
- # [19:09] <dbaron> zwol, I think we do need it for webcompat.
- # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
- # [19:09] <zwol> dbaron: ok, if you and fantasai both think we still need it, i believe you.
- # [19:09] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.184.101) (Quit: dsinger)
- # [19:10] * zwol out
- # [19:11] <fantasai> thanks, zwol
- # [19:14] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, zwol, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
- # [19:14] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
- # [19:14] <Zakim> Attendees were arronei, +1.650.275.aaaa, bradk, +1.858.216.aabb, zwol, +1.408.636.aacc, smfr, glazou, +1.206.324.aadd, +1.650.253.aaee, tabatkins, dsinger, sylvaing, SteveZ,
- # [19:14] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], David_Baron, dethbakin, Bert
- # [19:14] * Parts: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.19.75)
- # [19:17] <zwol> note to self: quitting ekiga does not hang up the phone
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- # [20:48] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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- # Session Close: Thu Jul 01 00:00:00 2010
The end :)