/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-06-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 30 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:09] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
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  28. # [17:16] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-CSS-irc
  29. # [17:16] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  30. # [17:16] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 46 minutes
  31. # [17:19] * glazou tests the european bridge...
  32. # [17:21] <glazou> ok, miracles are rare :-(
  33. # [17:28] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Ping timeout)
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  37. # [17:52] * Joins: plinss_ (plinss@68.107.116.23)
  38. # [17:53] <glazou> hi plinss_
  39. # [17:55] * Joins: zwol (zack@63.245.220.240)
  40. # [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, code?
  41. # [17:56] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
  42. # [17:56] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  43. # [17:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  44. # [17:58] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  45. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  46. # [17:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  47. # [17:58] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  48. # [17:58] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  49. # [17:58] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  50. # [17:59] <plinss_> hello
  51. # [17:59] <bradk> hi
  52. # [17:59] <arronei> hi
  53. # [18:00] <zwol> hello
  54. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaaa
  55. # [18:00] <bradk> zakim, aaaa is me
  56. # [18:00] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  57. # [18:01] * Joins: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23)
  58. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  59. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
  60. # [18:01] <plinss_> zakim, aabb is [plinss]
  61. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[plinss]; got it
  62. # [18:02] <zwol> zakim, mozilla is me
  63. # [18:02] <Zakim> +zwol; got it
  64. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aacc
  65. # [18:02] <zwol> (hopefully someone else from mozilla will also turn up :)
  66. # [18:02] <smfr> Zakim, aacc is me
  67. # [18:02] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  68. # [18:03] <plinss_> zakim, [plinss] has glazou
  69. # [18:03] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  70. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aadd
  71. # [18:04] * Joins: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22)
  72. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aaee
  73. # [18:04] <tabatkins> Zakim, aaee is me
  74. # [18:04] <Zakim> +tabatkins; got it
  75. # [18:04] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.184.101)
  76. # [18:04] <Zakim> +dsinger
  77. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, aadd is sylvaing
  78. # [18:04] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  79. # [18:04] * dsinger wow, it knows me!
  80. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P18
  81. # [18:05] <smfr> echo ... echo ... echo
  82. # [18:05] <smfr> Zakim, mute glazou
  83. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, smfr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to glazou
  84. # [18:06] * Joins: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242)
  85. # [18:06] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10)
  86. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  87. # [18:08] <sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
  88. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  89. # [18:08] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
  90. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see arronei, bradk, zwol, [plinss], smfr, sylvaing, tabatkins, dsinger, ??P18, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
  91. # [18:09] <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
  92. # [18:09] <Zakim> On IRC I see sylvaing, szilles, dsinger, oyvind, smfr, bradk, nimbupani, zwol, plinss_, glazou, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, karl, Bert, Curt`, anne, miketaylr, arronei, plinss,
  93. # [18:09] <Zakim> ... krijnh, lhnz, trackbot, tabatkins, Hixie, fantasai, jgraham
  94. # [18:09] * sylvaing actually met john once. he's real.
  95. # [18:09] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  96. # [18:09] * dsinger ??P18 is Elika?
  97. # [18:09] <sylvaing> topic: CSS2.1 test suite
  98. # [18:09] <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
  99. # [18:10] <sylvaing> fantasai: hoping to publish today but still working through testcases
  100. # [18:10] <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [plinss] (54%), ??P18 (9%), [Microsoft] (49%)
  101. # [18:10] <sylvaing> glazou: how many test updates do we need to make to account for issue resolutions ?
  102. # [18:10] <sylvaing> fantasai, arronei: it will take a few days to get caught up
  103. # [18:11] <sylvaing> glazou: so you're confident we are still on track for a september release
  104. # [18:11] <sylvaing> arronei, fantasai: yes
  105. # [18:11] <sylvaing> glazou: I think we should publish the CR and release the test suite together
  106. # [18:12] <sylvaing> glazou: topic now is implementation reports. when do browser vendors plan on producing them ?
  107. # [18:12] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.19.75)
  108. # [18:12] <sylvaing> fantasai: modulo spec edit updates, we have all the testcases that will be in the testsuite
  109. # [18:12] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  110. # [18:12] <dethbakin> Zakim, Apple has dethbakin
  111. # [18:12] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  112. # [18:13] <sylvaing> fantasai: then we can track which testcases have changed so vendors know which to rerun
  113. # [18:13] <sylvaing> glazou: browser vendors, can you run the tests when the testsuite beta 1 is ready
  114. # [18:13] <sylvaing> arronei: msft has already started
  115. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Bert
  116. # [18:14] <sylvaing> simonfr: for webkit, we can start when the testcases are ready.
  117. # [18:15] <sylvaing> dbaron: it's hard to say
  118. # [18:15] <sylvaing> arronei: running the whole thing for one browser takes ~3 days to just record the results
  119. # [18:16] <sylvaing> smfr: do they need a manual run or are they automated ?
  120. # [18:16] <sylvaing> fantasai: some are (mozilla's reftests) but the bulk are manual
  121. # [18:17] <sylvaing> (talk about improving the harness)
  122. # [18:17] <sylvaing> glazou: next question is about the spec itself. we have made a lot of changes so we would back to LCWD, then CR with the test suite
  123. # [18:18] <sylvaing> glazou: the open question is the CR period which is usually 6 months, thus preventing us from reaching PR by end of year
  124. # [18:18] <sylvaing> glazou: note, that is important from a W3C point of view to reach PR by the end of the current charter
  125. # [18:18] <szilles> +1 for shorter CR
  126. # [18:18] <sylvaing> fantasai: given that the spec has been CR several times, I don't think we need a 6 months minimum
  127. # [18:19] <sylvaing> fantasai: we need enough time to generate impl. reports and analyze them
  128. # [18:19] <szilles> +1 for 3mo period
  129. # [18:19] <sylvaing> glazou: a 3 months period would be ideal
  130. # [18:19] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: next css21 CR period is 3 months
  131. # [18:20] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-26
  132. # [18:21] <sylvaing> bert: still have to edit it
  133. # [18:21] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-53
  134. # [18:21] <sylvaing> glazou: I'm waiting for answers from Thunderbird and others
  135. # [18:22] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-60
  136. # [18:22] <sylvaing> bert: I haven't done any review yet
  137. # [18:22] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
  138. # [18:23] <sylvaing> fantasai: we have the testcases for this one
  139. # [18:24] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-110
  140. # [18:25] <sylvaing> tab: I will try to finish this by next wednesday
  141. # [18:25] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
  142. # [18:27] <sylvaing> bert: I can finish this in the next 2 weeks
  143. # [18:28] <Zakim> -bradk
  144. # [18:28] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
  145. # [18:28] <sylvaing> fantasai: I have started and have general definitions. in progress. planning on working on it this week
  146. # [18:28] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-129
  147. # [18:28] <sylvaing> bert: no work on this one yet
  148. # [18:29] <sylvaing> bert: I can write a proposal this week
  149. # [18:29] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-136
  150. # [18:30] <sylvaing> (editorial, done)
  151. # [18:30] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-137
  152. # [18:30] <bradk> Google voice is not being nice to me
  153. # [18:31] <sylvaing> fantasai: I would add a sentence to the anonymous block section to have percentages resolved against the containing block before anonymous boxes are generated
  154. # [18:31] <sylvaing> dbaron: what other things is the idea of the containing block used for ?
  155. # [18:31] <sylvaing> tabatkins: percentages, positioning...anything else ?
  156. # [18:31] <Zakim> +bradk
  157. # [18:32] <sylvaing> dbaron: I suspect that in some cases implementations agree on anonymous boxes not being containing block at all. this might be worth writing testcases
  158. # [18:33] <sylvaing> (to be revisited next week)
  159. # [18:33] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-138
  160. # [18:34] <sylvaing> tabatkins: fantasai, I and I think authors agree on the proposal. dbaron's preference was more aligned with implementations
  161. # [18:35] <sylvaing> sylvaing: will it cause testcase failures for implementations ?
  162. # [18:35] <sylvaing> tabatkins: implementations all disagree today anyway
  163. # [18:36] <dbaron> I'm trying to remember what other issues were related to this issue from the time we decided to change the spec from what you want to say to what it currently says...
  164. # [18:37] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-140
  165. # [18:37] <dbaron> (I think this is a proposal to change the spec back to what it used to say.)
  166. # [18:37] <sylvaing> tabatkins: I believe we talked about this at the f2f.
  167. # [18:38] <sylvaing> (to be followed up)
  168. # [18:38] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-142
  169. # [18:39] <sylvaing> (target next week)
  170. # [18:39] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-153
  171. # [18:39] <sylvaing> dbaron: I think we need to clarify height the way it was in CSS2
  172. # [18:40] <sylvaing> (reads proposal)
  173. # [18:40] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0570.html
  174. # [18:42] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: accept dbaron's proposal for issue-153
  175. # [18:43] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-158
  176. # [18:43] <sylvaing> tabatkins: this really is about empty clearing elements
  177. # [18:44] <sylvaing> glazou: everyone to review, look again next week
  178. # [18:44] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-154
  179. # [18:44] * fantasai thinks you need two images
  180. # [18:45] <sylvaing> arronei: I am working with jdaggett on an image for this. but this could be left to CSS3 Fonts or CSS3 Text
  181. # [18:45] * dbaron wonders if any of the images in http://dbaron.org/css/2000/01/dibm would be useful
  182. # [18:45] <sylvaing> fantasai: you can't put some measurements on the same diagram
  183. # [18:45] <sylvaing> fantasai: it may be easier if it is split in two images
  184. # [18:46] <sylvaing> glazou: let's defer to next week then
  185. # [18:46] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
  186. # [18:46] <sylvaing> fantasai: not done yet. i'll get to it for next week
  187. # [18:47] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-166
  188. # [18:47] <sylvaing> fantasai: not done yet
  189. # [18:47] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
  190. # [18:48] <sylvaing> zwol: this one ties back to the tokenizer backup issue; whoever works on the latter should know they're closely related
  191. # [18:48] <zwol> I can summarize the proposal
  192. # [18:50] <dbaron> comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0658.html
  193. # [18:50] * zwol skims
  194. # [18:51] <sylvaing> (to be continued)
  195. # [18:51] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-170
  196. # [18:52] <zwol> bert: the thing you need to know for the backup issue, is that most of the changes to strings in my proposal were necessitated by \-EOF not having been defined.
  197. # [18:52] <sylvaing> glazou: authors would not expect these properties to have no effect imo
  198. # [18:52] <zwol> bert: also, when I wrote that, I didn't know that the prose defines the behavior of EOF within a comment. The grammar should still handle it, but whatever i said about it in that old message is probably wrong.
  199. # [18:53] <sylvaing> arronei: IE handles min-height but I believe no one handles max-height
  200. # [18:54] * glazou will need to leave precisely at the top of the hour
  201. # [18:54] <dbaron> I think gecko handles max-height as I described in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0444.html
  202. # [18:55] <sylvaing> smfr: webkit seems to ignore min-height on table cells
  203. # [18:56] <sylvaing> tabatkins: I agree that I expect min/max-height to do something but I don't know what right now
  204. # [18:56] <sylvaing> glazou: bradk, tabatkins to review dbaron's proposal
  205. # [18:56] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-172
  206. # [18:56] <dbaron> Er, wait, when I was talking about Gecko's behavior I was thinking about what it does for min/max-width...
  207. # [18:57] <sylvaing> fantasai: not done yet
  208. # [18:57] <sylvaing> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-173
  209. # [18:58] <sylvaing> fantasai: I think the original intention was that linebreaks had been normalized before whitespace processing rules were applied
  210. # [18:59] <sylvaing> fantasai: that is why CSS3 Text talks about linebreak characters
  211. # [19:00] <glazou> plinss_: I need to go in 2mns, can you finish for me please ?
  212. # [19:00] <plinss_> sure
  213. # [19:00] <glazou> plinss_: thanks, I'm leaving then ; sorry guys, I have to go
  214. # [19:01] * glazou left, bye
  215. # [19:01] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: run Daniel, run)
  216. # [19:02] <zwol> an interesting question for folks with the ability to grep the web, would be to see if there are real documents with CR-only (not CRLF) linebreaks in a context where those linebreaks must be honored (<pre>, to first order)
  217. # [19:03] <zwol> I mean the actual character, not an escape
  218. # [19:03] <fantasai> I'm quite sure there are
  219. # [19:04] <fantasai> that was the default line break character on Macs for a long time
  220. # [19:04] <fantasai> you'd get entire documents authored with only CRs as line breaks
  221. # [19:04] <zwol> s'true, but not since OSX, which is nearly ten years old now? so it seems like that would have to be very old content
  222. # [19:04] <sylvaing> IE6 is 10yo too (sigh)
  223. # [19:05] <zwol> (groan) point taken
  224. # [19:07] * Quits: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23) (Quit: smfr)
  225. # [19:08] <dbaron> zwol, but that's already handled by normalization that happens during parsing
  226. # [19:08] <dbaron> zwol, everything gets normalized to LF at parse time
  227. # [19:08] <Zakim> -smfr
  228. # [19:08] <sylvaing> plinss: we will rediscuss based on fantasai's new proposal
  229. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  230. # [19:08] <Zakim> -dsinger
  231. # [19:08] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  232. # [19:08] <Zakim> -arronei
  233. # [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
  234. # [19:09] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  235. # [19:09] <Zakim> -tabatkins
  236. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  237. # [19:09] <zwol> dbaron: i was thinking that if we no longer need that for webcompat, we could drop bare-CR from the normalization set
  238. # [19:09] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Quit: sylvaing)
  239. # [19:09] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  240. # [19:09] <Zakim> -[plinss]
  241. # [19:09] <Zakim> -??P18
  242. # [19:09] * dsinger bye!
  243. # [19:09] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  244. # [19:09] <dbaron> zwol, I think we do need it for webcompat.
  245. # [19:09] <Zakim> -bradk
  246. # [19:09] <zwol> dbaron: ok, if you and fantasai both think we still need it, i believe you.
  247. # [19:09] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.184.101) (Quit: dsinger)
  248. # [19:10] * zwol out
  249. # [19:11] <fantasai> thanks, zwol
  250. # [19:14] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, zwol, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  251. # [19:14] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  252. # [19:14] <Zakim> Attendees were arronei, +1.650.275.aaaa, bradk, +1.858.216.aabb, zwol, +1.408.636.aacc, smfr, glazou, +1.206.324.aadd, +1.650.253.aaee, tabatkins, dsinger, sylvaing, SteveZ,
  253. # [19:14] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], David_Baron, dethbakin, Bert
  254. # [19:14] * Parts: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.19.75)
  255. # [19:17] <zwol> note to self: quitting ekiga does not hang up the phone
  256. # [19:18] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  257. # [19:38] * Quits: szilles (chatzilla@67.180.186.242) (Ping timeout)
  258. # [20:17] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  259. # [20:44] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  260. # [20:48] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  261. # [20:48] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  262. # [21:31] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  263. # [21:37] * Joins: armandoperico (armandoper@201.92.46.164)
  264. # [21:40] * Quits: armandoperico (armandoper@201.92.46.164) (Client exited)
  265. # [21:40] * Joins: armandoperico (armandoper@201.92.46.164)
  266. # [21:41] * Quits: armandoperico (armandoper@201.92.46.164) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  267. # [21:49] * Joins: armandoperico (armandoper@201.92.46.164)
  268. # [22:47] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  269. # [22:49] * Joins: SDP (spasetti@24.250.30.94)
  270. # [23:00] * Quits: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: kernel update)
  271. # [23:05] * Joins: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org)
  272. # [23:07] * Joins: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46)
  273. # [23:14] * Quits: armandoperico (armandoper@201.92.46.164) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  274. # [23:26] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
  275. # Session Close: Thu Jul 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)