/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2010-07-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 14 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  15. # [10:34] <anne> http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2010/05/01/resolutions_105
  16. # [10:34] <anne> "David Baron and Daniel Glazman to write up a proposal for handling invalid queries and empty media lists in the OM." did this ever happen?
  17. # [10:34] <anne> I recall we at one point decided @media {} would be invalid and then reverted that decision
  18. # [10:34] <anne> but how do we address it?
  19. # [10:35] <anne> should the media_query_list defined by media queries allowed to be empty?
  20. # [10:35] <anne> or should the "host language" define it either takes a media_query_list or something else?
  21. # [10:35] <anne> like the empty string
  22. # [10:38] <anne> aah
  23. # [10:38] <anne> http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2010/05/16/resolutions_106 says it was so changed
  24. # [10:41] <anne> ooh, and tabatkins had an action to follow up with me
  25. # [10:41] <anne> well that never happened
  26. # [10:41] <anne> but that's okay
  27. # [10:41] * anne goes to edit
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  31. # [11:55] <anne> yay
  32. # [11:55] <anne> Media Queries updated
  33. # [14:23] <fantasai> :)
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  39. # [17:37] <tabatkins> Oh, huh. Somehow I thought I'd communicated it to you at some point. Sorry, anne.
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  44. # [17:56] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-CSS-irc
  45. # [17:57] <plinss_> rrsagent, make logs public
  46. # [17:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss_
  47. # [17:57] <plinss_> zakim, this will be style
  48. # [17:57] <Zakim> ok, plinss_; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
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  54. # [18:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  55. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaaa
  56. # [18:02] <smfr> Zakim, aaaa is me
  57. # [18:02] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  58. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.617.650.aabb
  59. # [18:03] * Joins: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45)
  60. # [18:03] <dethbakin> Zakim, aabb is me
  61. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
  62. # [18:03] * dethbakin has to sign off irc for now. be back soon.
  63. # [18:03] * Quits: dethbakin (dethbakin@67.180.129.108) (Quit: dethbakin)
  64. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aacc
  65. # [18:04] <plinss_> zakim, aacc is me
  66. # [18:04] <Zakim> +plinss_; got it
  67. # [18:04] <bradk> great. Google Voice page doesn't work now....
  68. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aadd
  69. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aaee
  70. # [18:05] <TabAtkins_> Zakim, aaee is me
  71. # [18:05] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
  72. # [18:05] <plinss_> zakim, aadd is sylvaing
  73. # [18:06] <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
  74. # [18:06] * Joins: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.64)
  75. # [18:07] <Zakim> +David_Baron
  76. # [18:07] <bradk> !@#$!! Even in Chrome it won't call me! Tab, what's with Google Voice today?
  77. # [18:08] <fantasai> bradk, if you need a phone card I can send you my info
  78. # [18:08] * fantasai isn't able to use it from here anyway
  79. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aaff
  80. # [18:08] <bradk> Zakim, aaff is me
  81. # [18:08] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  82. # [18:09] <bradk> Thanks, I finally got in though.
  83. # [18:10] <CesarAcebal> I'm having problems trying to call with Skype. I'll keep trying it... (I'm sorry)
  84. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  85. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: No additions to the agenda.
  86. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Issue 53, spent a lot of time on it last week, not sure if anything got resolved.
  87. # [18:11] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-53
  88. # [18:12] <fantasai> I remember why pre-wrap isn't justified in MOzilla
  89. # [18:12] <fantasai> It's because of tabs
  90. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +46.0.94.0.aagg
  91. # [18:12] * Joins: Curt` (DorkeyDear@76.241.95.125)
  92. # [18:12] <CesarAcebal> Zakim, aagg it's me.
  93. # [18:12] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aagg it's me', CesarAcebal
  94. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: Conclusion from browser testing - anything with collapsed whitespace can be justified, anything with preserved whitespace can't be.
  95. # [18:12] <fantasai> So I would suggest adopting Proposal A
  96. # [18:13] <fantasai> plinss_, I would like to add the CSS Snapshot and the Styling Attributes spec to the agenda
  97. # [18:13] <CesarAcebal> Zakim, aagg is me.
  98. # [18:13] <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
  99. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> bradk: How do the tabs come into it, fantasai?
  100. # [18:14] <fantasai> How do you justify tabs?
  101. # [18:14] <fantasai> They're supposed to push text to the next tab stop
  102. # [18:14] <fantasai> but if spaces stretch or shrink
  103. # [18:14] <fantasai> then the text moves around
  104. # [18:14] <fantasai> and the tabs might need to push to the *next* tab stop
  105. # [18:14] * TabAtkins_ thinks that Word still lets you justify with tabs.
  106. # [18:15] <fantasai> so they have to be recalculated
  107. # [18:15] <fantasai> and the text *has* to be rebroken
  108. # [18:15] <fantasai> without the tabs problem, you never *need* to alter line breaks due to justification
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  111. # [18:15] <fantasai> it's just an option that can sometimes make the results better
  112. # [18:15] <plinss_> you can lay out the text with tabs, then justify from the last tab stop to the end of the line
  113. # [18:16] <bradk> I thought a tab was just a seres of spaces in HTML
  114. # [18:16] <fantasai> plinss, that makes sense. I like that definition.
  115. # [18:16] <fantasai> plinss, seems like it would handle most cases
  116. # [18:17] <fantasai> bradk: no, it aligns to a tab stop
  117. # [18:17] <fantasai> bradk: the tab stops are a multiple of 8 spaces apart
  118. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: What plinss_ just suggested appears to be exactly what word processors do.
  119. # [18:17] <fantasai> bradk: starting from the containing block edge
  120. # [18:17] * fantasai is happy with plinss's definition
  121. # [18:17] <bradk> Thanks, I didn't realize that.
  122. # [18:18] <fantasai> I'll note that SteveZ was concerned about CR exit, so if we go with this then we should mark justification of pre-wrap text as at-risk
  123. # [18:18] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  124. # [18:18] <Zakim> sorry, arronei, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  125. # [18:18] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  126. # [18:18] <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
  127. # [18:18] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  128. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: Going with plinss_'s definition, we'll still have no implementations. Is that ok?
  129. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> smfr: This question is specifically about CSS 2.1. What are we going to do right now?
  130. # [18:20] <fantasai> smfr, I don't think we have implementations to exit CR with pre-wrap justification right now, and given the implications with tabs, it's not as simple as throwing a few switches
  131. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> bradk: We could say "Not justified" right now, and then change it in the future.
  132. # [18:20] <fantasai> bradk, that works as long as we are clear about our future plans
  133. # [18:20] <fantasai> bradk: we'd have to say thatt this may change in CSS3
  134. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: [talks about new mode that collapses spaces but not tabs]
  135. # [18:21] <fantasai> bradk: And probably remark that justification is allowed if the UA supports it
  136. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: Fine with just going with current behavior for CSS2.1 and fixing it in the future.
  137. # [18:21] <smfr> phew
  138. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept proposal A for issue 53.
  139. # [18:22] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
  140. # [18:22] <fantasai> If the intention is to allow justification in the future, then we need a resolution to allow for that
  141. # [18:22] <fantasai> If the intention is not to allow justification in the future, then I'd like a resoluttion for /that/
  142. # [18:23] * fantasai wants to know whether to reraise this in CSS3 or just copy this in CSS2.1
  143. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Look into allowing justification combined with white-space values in the future, but go with Proposal A for CSS 2.1.
  144. # [18:23] <fantasai> Thankyou
  145. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: dbaron, you have any idea when you'll be able to look at 101?
  146. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Not sure.
  147. # [18:24] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-110
  148. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: I pointed last week to the proposal that I was happy with making. I need to edit the wiki and resend to the list so people actually know what it is.
  149. # [18:25] <bradk> does centering text with tabs in it also change the white space?
  150. # [18:25] <bradk> Sorry, still thinking of last issue.
  151. # [18:25] <fantasai> bradk, good question, I don't know what happens
  152. # [18:25] <fantasai> bradk, it's a similar problem
  153. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> It does something odd here in OOo Writer.
  154. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> Not sure what the behavior is exactly.
  155. # [18:26] <bradk> If so, then we should treat centering and justifying the same way...
  156. # [18:27] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-138
  157. # [18:28] <fantasai> bradk, well, we don't have implementations to do it in 2.1, but since we're leaving it open for CSS3 we can do that in CSS3
  158. # [18:29] * Quits: Curt` (DorkeyDear@76.241.95.125) (Quit: Leaving)
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  160. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: For dbaron's response on the list, I think the "float in inline" was precisely what we were testing.
  161. # [18:30] <bradk> fantasai, OK, I can live with that
  162. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: The actual discussion on the list was about different things; only some of them were about floats, and I think all of them involved a float in a block in an inline.
  163. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: For the testcase I posted yesterday, it appears that floats directly inside inlines are agreed by browsers to not relpos along with the inline.
  164. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: If we want to say that relposing moves a float inside the content tree but not in the containing block, we should say that in general, not just in the case you have a block-in-inline split.
  165. # [18:32] <dbaron> ... but I don't think we should.
  166. # [18:32] <dbaron> http://dbaron.org/css/test/2010/css21-issue-138-simple-float-test
  167. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: What I see in Gecko and Chrome is that the first line isn't offset, but the second one is.
  168. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: So in the block-in-inline case, the block is the containing block for float?
  169. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Yes.
  170. # [18:34] <dbaron> I'm also not sure if there's anything in the spec that says exactly what relative positioning affects...
  171. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: That makes sense. I'd be fine with revising my proposal to say that floats move with their containing block. Then somehow making it clear that, in the block-in-inline case, the block is what moves with the inline's relpos, even though officially the inline is broken around the block.
  172. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: In IE8 and IE9, both of them move 200px away from the edge.
  173. # [18:36] * Joins: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.17.210)
  174. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: If IE is moving the float, I'm a bit scared to change it, just because I know that we authors count on floats doing really odd things.
  175. # [18:39] <dbaron> So I'd note that we should probably have a separate 2.1 issue on nothing in the spec saying which descendants of an element are affected by relative positioning.
  176. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: So, I need to (a) change the proposal to make floats only care about their containing blocks getting relpos, (b) ensure that the block-in-inline case appropriately moves the block if the inline is relposed, and (c) build some confidence that this won't break IE.
  177. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: My only solace is that Firefox does something substantially different, so as long as an author tests in both FF and IE they won't depend on this behavior.
  178. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> bradk: Unless it somehow fixes a separate IE bug.
  179. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: Right.
  180. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: IE guys, are you theoretically okay with this change?
  181. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: It makes sense to me to make floats move with their containing blocks only, but I'd have to check with Alex to see what he thinks re: compat.
  182. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Alex is in Moscow right now, so we'll probably have to catch him on email.
  183. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> ACTION Sylvain: Contact AlexMog to see if changing things for Issue 138 will hurt web compat for IE.
  184. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  185. # [18:43] * RRSAgent records action 1
  186. # [18:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-245 - Contact AlexMog to see if changing things for Issue 138 will hurt web compat for IE. [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2010-07-21].
  187. # [18:43] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-158
  188. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> Same as last week, the proposal is linked on the wiki and just needs someone to review it for acceptability.
  189. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Anyone reviewed it?
  190. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> [silence]
  191. # [18:45] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Everyone, read the proposal for Issue 158, and we'll discuss it next week.
  192. # [18:46] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-166
  193. # [18:47] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: I have not reviewed this yet, though I like how few changes there had to be.
  194. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: Looks good at first blush, I just need about 10 minutes to read it in depth.
  195. # [18:48] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
  196. # [18:48] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Good. Everyone take a look at it so we can quickly resolve on it next week.
  197. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: Latest action on it is dbaron's feedback, but Zack hasn't responded to it yet. I think dbaron needs to poke Zack to respond.
  198. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Ok.
  199. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: We also had a note to get better testcases on this. Are our testcases okay right now?
  200. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> arronei: We have a couple. I'll look around and add them to the wiki.
  201. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: Would be good to get together an idea of what we're doing and what we want to do.
  202. # [18:52] <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-174
  203. # [18:52] <dbaron> http://dbaron.org/css/test/2010/css21-issue-174
  204. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think this is a straightforward case of the prose disagreeing with the grammar, and everyone following the grammar.
  205. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I checked Gecko and Chrome.
  206. # [18:53] <smfr> i confirm
  207. # [18:54] <fantasai> Opera and Konqueror match FF
  208. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> arronei: IE and Opera show the testcase
  209. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> bradk: Safari too.
  210. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Accept dbaron's proposed change to resolve issue 174.
  211. # [18:56] <fantasai> If we're done with CSS2.1 issues, I'd like to propose adding the CSS Styling Attributes spec to the 2007 Snapshot
  212. # [18:57] <fantasai> Also, I'd like some guidance on what to do with that spec, since it's in LC, and all issues were addressed, but the SVGWG never confirmed whether they were happy with my responses.
  213. # [18:57] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-style-attr/issues-lc-2009
  214. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> tabatkins: Did that one just describe reality, or was it the one that tried to allow scope and MQ and such inside of @style?
  215. # [18:57] <fantasai> Just describes reality
  216. # [18:57] <fantasai> no new features
  217. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> kk, then I'm cool with i.
  218. # [18:58] <fantasai> otherwise I wouldn't suggest backporting it to 2007 :)
  219. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: I'm fine with it. Objections?
  220. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> [no objections]
  221. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> RESOLVED: Add CSS Styling Attributes spec to the 2007 snapshot
  222. # [18:59] <plinss_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0644.html
  223. # [18:59] <fantasai> Second question then is, should we move to CR or action someone to pester the SVGWG again for a response?
  224. # [18:59] <fantasai> plinss, For the writing-mode question, I suggest waiting until end of September
  225. # [18:59] <fantasai> plinss, because I won't have time to work on it until then
  226. # [19:00] <fantasai> plinss, but I do intend to sync with SVG
  227. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> fantasai, that's just an issue of whether to accept SVG's shorthands, right?
  228. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> fantasai, since we don't want to drop our bt-* ones.
  229. # [19:00] <fantasai> it might be, it might mean other things
  230. # [19:00] <fantasai> right, we'd make a superset
  231. # [19:00] <fantasai> but there might be some changes to behavior also required
  232. # [19:01] <shepazu> [the SVG WG intends to match CSS for SVG 2]
  233. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> plinss_: You okay with deferring this, Sylvain?
  234. # [19:01] <shepazu> [please let us know if there are changes to behavior, of course... but we're open to changes, if they make sense]
  235. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: yeah.
  236. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> shepazu, should we bug SVGWG more about Styling Attribute?
  237. # [19:02] <Zakim> -smfr
  238. # [19:02] <Zakim> -David_Baron
  239. # [19:02] <Zakim> -dethbakin
  240. # [19:02] <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
  241. # [19:02] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  242. # [19:02] * Quits: bradk (bradk@67.188.133.45) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  243. # [19:02] <Zakim> -arronei
  244. # [19:02] <Zakim> -plinss_
  245. # [19:02] <Zakim> -bradk
  246. # [19:02] * Quits: smfr (smfr@72.25.91.23) (Quit: smfr)
  247. # [19:02] <shepazu> TabAtkins_: what's the issue?
  248. # [19:02] * shepazu has been on vacation
  249. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> SVGWG never confirmed if they were okay with the resolutions to the CSS Styling Attributes spec LC issues.
  250. # [19:03] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-style-attr/issues-lc-2009
  251. # [19:03] <fantasai> issues list is there ^
  252. # [19:07] <shepazu> hmmm. I thought we'd resolved that... I think Chris has the ball. IF you would be so kind, write us another follow-up email about the remaining issues, and we will resolve on it for our next telcon
  253. # [19:07] <shepazu> and send a clear response
  254. # [19:07] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, TabAtkins_, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  255. # [19:07] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  256. # [19:07] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.636.aaaa, smfr, +1.617.650.aabb, dethbakin, +1.858.216.aacc, plinss_, +1.206.324.aadd, +1.650.214.aaee, TabAtkins_, sylvaing, David_Baron, +1.650.275.aaff,
  257. # [19:07] <Zakim> ... bradk, +46.0.94.0.aagg, CesarAcebal, arronei
  258. # [19:08] <fantasai> shepazu: if you'd resolved that, then a reference to those minutes is all I'd need to mark the case closed
  259. # [19:08] * Quits: CesarAcebal (acebal@85.152.177.64) (Quit: CesarAcebal)
  260. # [19:09] * fantasai just needs to know y'all won't get mad if we publish it as CR without all the requested editorial changes :)
  261. # [19:09] <shepazu> right, but I don't know where that would be, off the top of my head... I don't feel confident speaking for the SVG WG here, because I don't recall what we decided
  262. # [19:12] <fantasai> ok, I have to go, but I'll follow up with that
  263. # [19:12] <fantasai> actions to me -- try to find SVGWG minutes discussing Styling Attributes spec, else email svgwg asking for response
  264. # [19:12] <fantasai> also, update the css2.1 issues list with the resolution above
  265. # [19:12] <fantasai> make the minutes
  266. # [19:12] <fantasai> and update the snapshot
  267. # [19:13] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@76.104.131.10) (Ping timeout)
  268. # [19:13] * fantasai gotta go, ttyl!
  269. # [19:13] <TabAtkins_> later, fantasai
  270. # [19:14] * Quits: oyvind (oyvinds@213.236.208.22) (Quit: oyvind)
  271. # [19:38] * Quits: plinss_ (plinss@68.107.116.23) (Ping timeout)
  272. # [20:10] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  273. # [20:23] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.117)
  274. # [20:23] * Joins: plinss_ (plinss@68.107.116.23)
  275. # [20:32] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  276. # [20:32] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  277. # [20:33] * Quits: nimbupani (nimbupani@24.22.131.46) (Quit: nimbupani)
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  279. # [20:55] * Quits: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.17.210) (Quit: dethbakin)
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  281. # [21:07] * Parts: dethbakin (dethbakin@17.246.17.210)
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  285. # [22:55] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.117) (Connection reset by peer)
  286. # [23:00] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  287. # [23:02] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.78)
  288. # [23:07] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  289. # [23:14] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  290. # [23:14] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@131.107.0.78) (Quit: sylvaing)
  291. # Session Close: Thu Jul 15 00:00:00 2010

The end :)